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Never played a single minute of the NGE

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  • tawesstawess LkpgPosts: 2,536Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by DarthRaiden

    (and somwewhat proud of it)

    who else didn't touched that POS $OE thought at us that was NGE ?

    I am a pure PRE - NGE'r and my respect goes to pure PRE CU 'r  who even didn't touched and resisted even the CU.

     

     

     

    Unless you were a dedicated crafter/entertainer you have no clue what you are PROUD of... Are you proud of a bug ridden mess that was macro:ed to oblivion and exploited to such a level that even most combat proffesions were a joke...

    Were you one of those macroing MIN/MAXers who could not even remove their armor because they used the glitch that alaoved you to keep the armor on even if you did not have the stats any more...

     

    If you were a combat player the CU and the NGE did at least bring some kind of balance... Crafter on the other hand i agree got the shaft both hard and without any kind of lube, entertainers too for that matter...

  • treysmoothtreysmooth Martinsville, INPosts: 626Member

    Originally posted by superniceguy

    Originally posted by treysmooth


    Originally posted by superniceguy


    Originally posted by Kazara


    Originally posted by superniceguy


    Originally posted by Kazara

    I doubt any profit that SWG was turning could overcome the re-licensing cost,  I am sure part of the re-licensing would have also directed a certain amount resources be dedicated to SWG (development), which would cost $OE even more $$$$.  TOR would have decimated the very small population SWG had left, which would have made SWG even more costly.  Again, there is no evidence to support that EA/LA decided that two Star Wars MMO's couldn't exist. It is just sheer speculation. Smedley felt it was time to close SWG and he made a sound financial decision. SWG just was no longer worth keeping open. 

    I have stated most of the evidence in the above post, mainly the fact that Smedley/SOE alone would simply not give 6 months notice, but only a max of 3 months, and that SWG shuts down right before SWTOR launches  -Too much of a coincidence.

    Also with the state of SWTOR I do not see many SWG fans ditching it for SWTOR, as all the stuff that SWG does great is not in SWTOR. Plus SWG could have gotten more attention through SWTOR. Before SWTOR released it could have been thought that people would ditch SWG for it, but now it is here I do not think people would have, no more than they would for Mass Effect or Dragon Age. SWTOR in its current state is great for a single player KOTOR/ Mass Effect game but with multiplayer options like Mass Effect 3 will have, but complete crap for a P2P MMO.

    Smedley may have had an idea of the general release date of SWTOR and made the sound financial decision to close the game and give players 6 montths notice. Sure, he could have strung what players were left longer with a 3 month notice, but decided not to. You see it as some sort of coincidence, I see it as a part of Smedley's smart busines decision to close the game.

    SWG was never any threat to SWTOR, but there is little doubt that many of the SWG players left were also Star Wars fans who would have decided to 'ditch' SWG to play SWTOR. SWG would not have received any significant, beneficial attention from SWTOR. The truth is, the things that SWG did great were not enough to attract and retain players. Many of the wonderful features that SWG had were removed, marginalized or nerfed due to the NGE. The closed servers, the continued hemorrhaging of players, the many dead servers and the final decision to close the game attest to the story of fail SWG was.

    Keeping SWG open for the few players left was not a profitable move with the release of SWTOR and Smedley knew it.  He had stated long ago the sun setting SWG with the release of SWTOR was a possibility. I am actually surprised SWG has lasted as long as it did given the sorry state it was in.

    It still makes no sense and not smart at all. as people quit the game when he announced the closure, and so lost out on a lot of subs, as well has how ever months were left in 2012 of the contract he had to run SWG. If he only gave 3 months notice no one would have complained. The fact of the matter is the game was highly populated, and had more population than what DCUO has now. Shutting the game down with that many people vs not shutting down Vanguard with zero people makes no sense

    The only thing that makes sense was due to the contract stating SWG and SWTOR could not co-exist and EA had the licence.

    SWG was a threat to SWTOR, especially now it has been released, and even though the features in the NGE were dumbed down they still existed. They do not exist AT ALL in SWTOR, so what is there then to attract people to go to SWTOR? Nothing. No player cities, No Beast Master, further dumbed down of the crafting, dumbed down space, lifeless planets = NGE is better than SWTOR. EA knew that the game would not compare to SWG and that people would go back to SWG, so to secure people stick to SWTOR, they then get exclusivity to the SW licence

    SWG was not in a sorry state at all when they announced its closure.

    in your opionion it wasn't in a sorry state but again when you have basically 1 server with any population and a customer base that had shrunk down to 20k the massses had long spoken.

    Not my opinion that is fact. Considering it was doing better than DCUO, and far better than Vanguard and other MMOs, and with its history,  it was quite popular indeed.  There were 4 full servers, and the rest light-medium when they announced the closure. Vanguard has 2 servers, and has not lifted off light for ages, and was on Light when SWG got its server closure announcement.

    So because it was doing better than a game that bombed(DCUO) and better than vanguard, a game that had been on life support for at least two years it was doing well?  I'd say give better examples for comparision.  Sony has lost their mmo market share in part due to the nge and tbh I doubt many of us will trust soe w/ our money again.

  • treysmoothtreysmooth Martinsville, INPosts: 626Member

    Originally posted by tawess

    Originally posted by DarthRaiden

    (and somwewhat proud of it)

    who else didn't touched that POS $OE thought at us that was NGE ?

    I am a pure PRE - NGE'r and my respect goes to pure PRE CU 'r  who even didn't touched and resisted even the CU.

     

     

     

    Unless you were a dedicated crafter/entertainer you have no clue what you are PROUD of... Are you proud of a bug ridden mess that was macro:ed to oblivion and exploited to such a level that even most combat proffesions were a joke...

    Were you one of those macroing MIN/MAXers who could not even remove their armor because they used the glitch that alaoved you to keep the armor on even if you did not have the stats any more...

     

    If you were a combat player the CU and the NGE did at least bring some kind of balance... Crafter on the other hand i agree got the shaft both hard and without any kind of lube, entertainers too for that matter...

    I actually agree w/ you in part at least, the cu did bring some balance to the classes and i didn't mind it so much.  That was kinda the problem for me though I accepted the cu and was almost finished grinding my jedi and they drop the nge which destroyed all my work and dumbed down combat to seasame street lvls.

  • superniceguysuperniceguy AnchorheadPosts: 2,278Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by treysmooth

    Originally posted by superniceguy


    Originally posted by treysmooth


    Originally posted by superniceguy


    Originally posted by Kazara


    Originally posted by superniceguy


    Originally posted by Kazara

    I doubt any profit that SWG was turning could overcome the re-licensing cost,  I am sure part of the re-licensing would have also directed a certain amount resources be dedicated to SWG (development), which would cost $OE even more $$$$.  TOR would have decimated the very small population SWG had left, which would have made SWG even more costly.  Again, there is no evidence to support that EA/LA decided that two Star Wars MMO's couldn't exist. It is just sheer speculation. Smedley felt it was time to close SWG and he made a sound financial decision. SWG just was no longer worth keeping open. 

    I have stated most of the evidence in the above post, mainly the fact that Smedley/SOE alone would simply not give 6 months notice, but only a max of 3 months, and that SWG shuts down right before SWTOR launches  -Too much of a coincidence.

    Also with the state of SWTOR I do not see many SWG fans ditching it for SWTOR, as all the stuff that SWG does great is not in SWTOR. Plus SWG could have gotten more attention through SWTOR. Before SWTOR released it could have been thought that people would ditch SWG for it, but now it is here I do not think people would have, no more than they would for Mass Effect or Dragon Age. SWTOR in its current state is great for a single player KOTOR/ Mass Effect game but with multiplayer options like Mass Effect 3 will have, but complete crap for a P2P MMO.

    Smedley may have had an idea of the general release date of SWTOR and made the sound financial decision to close the game and give players 6 montths notice. Sure, he could have strung what players were left longer with a 3 month notice, but decided not to. You see it as some sort of coincidence, I see it as a part of Smedley's smart busines decision to close the game.

    SWG was never any threat to SWTOR, but there is little doubt that many of the SWG players left were also Star Wars fans who would have decided to 'ditch' SWG to play SWTOR. SWG would not have received any significant, beneficial attention from SWTOR. The truth is, the things that SWG did great were not enough to attract and retain players. Many of the wonderful features that SWG had were removed, marginalized or nerfed due to the NGE. The closed servers, the continued hemorrhaging of players, the many dead servers and the final decision to close the game attest to the story of fail SWG was.

    Keeping SWG open for the few players left was not a profitable move with the release of SWTOR and Smedley knew it.  He had stated long ago the sun setting SWG with the release of SWTOR was a possibility. I am actually surprised SWG has lasted as long as it did given the sorry state it was in.

    It still makes no sense and not smart at all. as people quit the game when he announced the closure, and so lost out on a lot of subs, as well has how ever months were left in 2012 of the contract he had to run SWG. If he only gave 3 months notice no one would have complained. The fact of the matter is the game was highly populated, and had more population than what DCUO has now. Shutting the game down with that many people vs not shutting down Vanguard with zero people makes no sense

    The only thing that makes sense was due to the contract stating SWG and SWTOR could not co-exist and EA had the licence.

    SWG was a threat to SWTOR, especially now it has been released, and even though the features in the NGE were dumbed down they still existed. They do not exist AT ALL in SWTOR, so what is there then to attract people to go to SWTOR? Nothing. No player cities, No Beast Master, further dumbed down of the crafting, dumbed down space, lifeless planets = NGE is better than SWTOR. EA knew that the game would not compare to SWG and that people would go back to SWG, so to secure people stick to SWTOR, they then get exclusivity to the SW licence

    SWG was not in a sorry state at all when they announced its closure.

    in your opionion it wasn't in a sorry state but again when you have basically 1 server with any population and a customer base that had shrunk down to 20k the massses had long spoken.

    Not my opinion that is fact. Considering it was doing better than DCUO, and far better than Vanguard and other MMOs, and with its history,  it was quite popular indeed.  There were 4 full servers, and the rest light-medium when they announced the closure. Vanguard has 2 servers, and has not lifted off light for ages, and was on Light when SWG got its server closure announcement.

    So because it was doing better than a game that bombed(DCUO) and better than vanguard, a game that had been on life support for at least two years it was doing well?  I'd say give better examples for comparision.  Sony has lost their mmo market share in part due to the nge and tbh I doubt many of us will trust soe w/ our money again.

    It was doing well actually as before they did the constant fcts there was only 1 full heavy server, when they did the fcts, it grew to 4 full heavy servers, and given time, it would have grown some more, but the shutdown announcement shot it dead

    The point being is if Vanguard is dead and not being shut down and SWG was not dead, then the reason it got shut down was not because it was dead, as it was not. There was plenty of population still to make something out of it. It got shut down because of that contract stating that SWG and SWTOR can not co-exist

  • hipiaphipiap Chicago, ILPosts: 439Member

    Originally posted by DarthRaiden

    (and somwewhat proud of it)

    who else didn't touched that POS $OE thought at us that was NGE ?

    I am a pure PRE - NGE'r and my respect goes to pure PRE CU 'r  who even didn't touched and resisted even the CU.

     

     

    since you never played Post November 15th 2005....

     

    You have no valid opinion of what the game was like in 2009 or 2010 or 2006 or 2007 or 2008 or 2011 (before the shutdown announcement).

     

    Thus...this is a thread designed to create flame bate.

    MMO History: 2528 days in SW:G
    image

  • DarthRaidenDarthRaiden gdfgfPosts: 4,333Member

    Originally posted by hipiap

    Originally posted by DarthRaiden

    (and somwewhat proud of it)

    who else didn't touched that POS $OE thought at us that was NGE ?

    I am a pure PRE - NGE'r and my respect goes to pure PRE CU 'r  who even didn't touched and resisted even the CU.

     

     

    since you never played Post November 15th 2005....

     

    You have no valid opinion of what the game was like in 2009 or 2010 or 2006 or 2007 or 2008 or 2011 (before the shutdown announcement).

     

    Thus...this is a thread designed to create flame bate.

     

    No.

    After SWG done for good and "both versions" are non-existant anymore this topic just looks back (and this can be done now unlike if there still was something active running as SWG) and calls those who resisted to fall into the NGE trap..that can be of course subjective.

    Poster who don't agree could have simply stayed away from this  because they didn't belonge to that group of  people targeted by te OP  anyway (the proud and pure SWG'r who didn't touched NGE).

    Of course i am proud to havn't spend $OE a dime after they refused to revert to the original and golden PRE CU version and the majority of  250k people who rejected SWG  after the NGE incident i think is with me.

     

     

     

    -----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
    $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
    -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!

    "There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)

  • sienosieno hoover, ALPosts: 119Member

    well like anyone else who got a free trial I gave nge a try and it failed and it made me feel dirty DIRTY I TELL YA  

    lasted about a whole 3 days  then gave my account to my rl brother who didnt mind nge that much  yea I dont get it either

    You want loot? Go kill some npcs, you wanna visit hades? come find ME, and dont forget to bring coins for the ferryman,

  • hipiaphipiap Chicago, ILPosts: 439Member

    Originally posted by superniceguy

    Originally posted by ericlatrelle

    Awww. I see Buffy_bites made his way to the MMORPG forums to spread more of his bs lol. This is going to be fun.

    Buffy_bites where? He does not like these forums as too many people bash on SWG for his liking, and not much support.

    If you think I am Buffty, then no. We are friend and just discuss and agree on the same things, and most of our so called "BS" as you put it is taken from what Tiars, 0nyx and other respectable SWG players have had to say, which all makes sense.

    Now SWG is shut down I now have time to keep posting about SWG, wheres before last week I was too busy playing SWG to bother.

    ericlatrelle is about 2 ounces short of a full pound..  Only slightly less amusing than JestorRodeo and Tux and Raiden.

     

    Tiars and Onyx and a few of us other regulars have always been able to see the difference betwwen what the SW:G Dev's wanted to do and what LEC made SOE do to SW:G.

    MMO History: 2528 days in SW:G
    image

  • GravezGravez Edison, NJPosts: 249Member

    Originally posted by hipiap

    Originally posted by superniceguy


    Originally posted by ericlatrelle

    Awww. I see Buffy_bites made his way to the MMORPG forums to spread more of his bs lol. This is going to be fun.

    Buffy_bites where? He does not like these forums as too many people bash on SWG for his liking, and not much support.

    If you think I am Buffty, then no. We are friend and just discuss and agree on the same things, and most of our so called "BS" as you put it is taken from what Tiars, 0nyx and other respectable SWG players have had to say, which all makes sense.

    Now SWG is shut down I now have time to keep posting about SWG, wheres before last week I was too busy playing SWG to bother.

    ericlatrelle is about 2 ounces short of a full pound..  Only slightly less amusing than JestorRodeo and Tux and Raiden.

     

    Tiars and Onyx and a few of us other regulars have always been able to see the difference betwwen what the SW:G Dev's wanted to do and what LEC made SOE do to SW:G.

    Get over it

  • Lost_BothanLost_Bothan somewhere, VAPosts: 27Member

    Originally posted by sieno

    well like anyone else who got a free trial I gave nge a try and it failed and it made me feel dirty DIRTY I TELL YA  

    lasted about a whole 3 days  then gave my account to my rl brother who didnt mind nge that much  yea I dont get it either

    Well id say it really depends on "when" you tried it. If you tried it right after the change then id say it wasnt the best time for it. In the last two to three years SWG  (nge version) had many fun and interesting updates. Having tried Pre CU i do see why people liked the profession trees of the past, but "in comparison" of the versions, both had a number of problems and bugs ( some of the bugs i have seen in pre cu version were fixed during the last years of the NGE ).

    When i first joined SWG one thing i could never understand was how people could hold grudges after so many years. if they really had left it behind then these posts would not be here /coming up now, even after its death. Perhaps im different then a "majority" of players in my thoughts to the subject of "PRE CU VS NGE" perhaps not. At this point such a topic is nothing but an echo of a old arguement.

    If anything these still ongoing arguements prove that many players in many mmos are unforgiving of mistakes, regardless of whos made the mistake and why or what reason it was made.

    Over the past few years i made a number of friends, vets, newer players, and even returning players who hadnt played since the changes. Some of those people gave it a chance, it may not have been what they were used to, but they found something in the "new" game that they liked as well and stayed with it.

    I can respect other people's choices not to play, or their opinions about what they loved about either version, but when it comes down to trolling and grudge matching (smear campaigning) then i have a harder time having basic respect for those who cant return it. If anything the continued smearing over the years hurt swg in ways some didnt realize.

    *shrug*

    image

  • Esquire1980Esquire1980 Stillwater, OKPosts: 529Member

    Originally posted by hipiap

    Originally posted by superniceguy

    Originally posted by ericlatrelle

    Awww. I see Buffy_bites made his way to the MMORPG forums to spread more of his bs lol. This is going to be fun.

    Buffy_bites where? He does not like these forums as too many people bash on SWG for his liking, and not much support.

    If you think I am Buffty, then no. We are friend and just discuss and agree on the same things, and most of our so called "BS" as you put it is taken from what Tiars, 0nyx and other respectable SWG players have had to say, which all makes sense.

    Now SWG is shut down I now have time to keep posting about SWG, wheres before last week I was too busy playing SWG to bother.

    ericlatrelle is about 2 ounces short of a full pound..  Only slightly less amusing than JestorRodeo and Tux and Raiden.

     

    Tiars and Onyx and a few of us other regulars have always been able to see the difference betwwen what the SW:G Dev's wanted to do and what LEC made SOE do to SW:G.

    Sorry, but most of the above is simply wrong.  We have Rubenfield's blog that said basicly what happened and why to fall back on now for more than "I think this is why" deal.  LEC may have indeed issued the directive to "fix" the game, (altho we don't know that for sure), but it was Rubenfield et al and SOE Austin that created, discussed, and then implimented the actual changes of the NGE.  Even full well knowing that some CHANGES were going to have most of their playerbase leave.  Per Rubenfiled, they talked about it and he stated the same very clearly.  And even after the NGE, no1 says it was LA's fault for again trying redesigning the game yet again with C6CD - GU-Whatever.  I doubt if LA even cared at that point in time as they probably wrote off SWG in Dec 2005 when they started talks with Bioware.

    Tiars and I have talked about this many a time as I was on the same server, I helped him ingame as he did people in my guild in space, he's been in my vent many a time, (and btw, I had an active account right up to the closure notice), and I seriouly doubt he'd be all that thrilled to have you use his name in this context.

    You can try to blame former players for SWG's closure all you want to.  It's a free country.  But, in the end all/be all it was SOE that destroyed SWG and their poor attempts in recrafting the game post launch, not once, nor twice, but 3 times in the games 8 years.  People like Jestor were just reacting to a very bad business decision by SOE and TUX was a senator who got shafted.  I may have still been a sub to SOE but the truth is the truth.  I actualy found Jestor quite entertaining at times.

  • hipiaphipiap Chicago, ILPosts: 439Member

    Originally posted by Gravez

    Originally posted by hipiap


    Originally posted by superniceguy


    Originally posted by ericlatrelle

    Awww. I see Buffy_bites made his way to the MMORPG forums to spread more of his bs lol. This is going to be fun.

    Buffy_bites where? He does not like these forums as too many people bash on SWG for his liking, and not much support.

    If you think I am Buffty, then no. We are friend and just discuss and agree on the same things, and most of our so called "BS" as you put it is taken from what Tiars, 0nyx and other respectable SWG players have had to say, which all makes sense.

    Now SWG is shut down I now have time to keep posting about SWG, wheres before last week I was too busy playing SWG to bother.

    ericlatrelle is about 2 ounces short of a full pound..  Only slightly less amusing than JestorRodeo and Tux and Raiden.

     

    Tiars and Onyx and a few of us other regulars have always been able to see the difference betwwen what the SW:G Dev's wanted to do and what LEC made SOE do to SW:G.

    Get over it

    Sorry....it has been less than 30 days since LEC and soe pulled the plug on the Only MMO i've been willing to spend money on.  i need a few more Decades to whine and moan like the pre-CU and Pre-NgE types.

    MMO History: 2528 days in SW:G
    image

  • superniceguysuperniceguy AnchorheadPosts: 2,278Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Esquire1980

    Sorry, but most of the above is simply wrong.  We have Rubenfield's blog that said basicly what happened and why to fall back on now for more than "I think this is why" deal.  LEC may have indeed issued the directive to "fix" the game, (altho we don't know that for sure), but it was Rubenfield et al and SOE Austin that created, discussed, and then implimented the actual changes of the NGE.  Even full well knowing that some CHANGES were going to have most of their playerbase leave.  Per Rubenfiled, they talked about it and he stated the same very clearly.  And even after the NGE, no1 says it was LA's fault for again trying redesigning the game yet again with C6CD - GU-Whatever.  I doubt if LA even cared at that point in time as they probably wrote off SWG in Dec 2005 when they started talks with Bioware.

     

     

    I still say that LA were involved with the way they wanted the NGE, as SWTOR is pretty much the same as the NGE, with 8 classes instead of 9, and a lot of stuff just cut out. SWTOR just seems like the NGE with enhanced version of the Legacy quests / Tansarri quests (which had attempted voice over) with the NGE - minus player housing and cities, dumbed down crafting, dumbed down space, no Beast Master type thing, no player created content system, less freedom of travel etc etc.

    The NGE turned SWG into a WOW clone, but still managed to retain its sandbox elements. SWTOR is now that WOW clone they wanted all along, and has nothing to do with SOE. The only difference with the two is that Bioware had years to polish it, whereas SOE only had a few months and they could not want to shut the game down temporarily, and went for immediate action. If SWG switched to SWTOR as it is now, instead of NGE, even if Bioware took over from the NGE, people still would have quit. They knew people would have quit but thought people would return once gotten over the change. I remember a video of Julio Torres saying this, when expalaining the NGE in 2005. He is from LA, and actually involved with KOTOR and also Force Unleashed. Here is the video, and stating people will return at 2:00 to 2:45 in the video. It was on the G4 site in 2005, this user uploaded it to youtube later.

    SO, basically I now see no differnce between Bioware and SOE, they have both given LA their WOW vision, except Bioware were given a lot more time to get it done, and also I would say if Bioware handled SWG they would have done NGE worse, as SOE are experienced MMO developers whereas Bioware are newbies, assuming SWG would have been their first MMO. You can see their MMO noobness with SWTOR, as it just does not feel like a MMO like, WOW, EQ, EQ2, Vanguard, Aion, Rift, City of Heroes, basically all of them including SWG. SWTOR feels like a single player KOTOR/Mass Effect game with online multiplayer bolted on.

  • Esquire1980Esquire1980 Stillwater, OKPosts: 529Member

    Originally posted by superniceguy

    Originally posted by Esquire1980

    Sorry, but most of the above is simply wrong.  We have Rubenfield's blog that said basicly what happened and why to fall back on now for more than "I think this is why" deal.  LEC may have indeed issued the directive to "fix" the game, (altho we don't know that for sure), but it was Rubenfield et al and SOE Austin that created, discussed, and then implimented the actual changes of the NGE.  Even full well knowing that some CHANGES were going to have most of their playerbase leave.  Per Rubenfiled, they talked about it and he stated the same very clearly.  And even after the NGE, no1 says it was LA's fault for again trying redesigning the game yet again with C6CD - GU-Whatever.  I doubt if LA even cared at that point in time as they probably wrote off SWG in Dec 2005 when they started talks with Bioware.

     

     

    I still say that LA were involved with the way they wanted the NGE, as SWTOR is pretty much the same as the NGE, with 8 classes instead of 9, and a lot of stuff just cut out. SWTOR just seems like the NGE with enhanced version of the Legacy quests / Tansarri quests (which had attempted voice over) with the NGE - minus player housing and cities, dumbed down crafting, dumbed down space, no Beast Master type thing, no player created content system, less freedom of travel etc etc.

    The NGE turned SWG into a WOW clone, but still managed to retain its sandbox elements. SWTOR is now that WOW clone they wanted all along, and has nothing to do with SOE. The only difference with the two is that Bioware had years to polish it, whereas SOE only had a few months and they could not want to shut the game down temporarily, and went for immediate action. If SWG switched to SWTOR as it is now, instead of NGE, even if Bioware took over from the NGE, people still would have quit. They knew people would have quit but thought people would return once gotten over the change. I remember a video of Julio Torres saying this, when expalaining the NGE in 2005. He is from LA, and actually involved with KOTOR and also Force Unleashed. Here is the video, and stating people will return at 2:00 to 2:45 in the video. It was on the G4 site in 2005, this user uploaded it to youtube later.

    SO, basically I now see no differnce between Bioware and SOE, they have both given LA their WOW vision, except Bioware were given a lot more time to get it done, and also I would say if Bioware handled SWG they would have done NGE worse, as SOE are experienced MMO developers whereas Bioware are newbies, assuming SWG would have been their first MMO. You can see their MMO noobness with SWTOR, as it just does not feel like a MMO like, WOW, EQ, EQ2, Vanguard, Aion, Rift, City of Heroes, basically all of them including SWG. SWTOR feels like a single player KOTOR/Mass Effect game with online multiplayer bolted on.

    Rubenfield does state they were asked to re-imagine the game from the ground up.  If that directive came from LA or from SOE San Diego (Smed), he does not elaborate so we do not know the answer to that, period.  You can believe what you want to but the facts are simply not there at this point in time and may never fully be known.

    You'll not find me taking up for TOR.  But, if you didn't know that TOR was going to be a WoW clone you again do not have all the facts.  Their lead dev was hired away from SOE as were many of the devs of that time.  Bioware took so many of these guys it opened a studio in the same town, Austin TX.  They continued with that even taking Adept-Strain well after the fact.  Dallas Dickerson, lead for TOR/Bioware, had his hands in the NGE up to his sholders so even looking at the Rubenfiled blog, NONE of these devs thought they did anything wrong with the CU, NGE, and even C6CD thru GU-Whatever.  They thought "the marketing failed" is why their CHANGES went down in MMO history as the exact what not to do with an MMO and fnaly killed what playerbase they had for each and every one of these CHANGES.  Bioware has a sucessful game made with KoToR so why wouldn't they try to recapture that sucess again with an MMO that bears even the same name and IP?  I never thought that TOR would be a sandbox and neither LA nor BW ever said that it was going to be.

    Now, would LA take more control with their 2nd MMO?  Probably.  I doubt that Bioware would be able to get by an NGE past LA like SOE did before.  Interesting to note here that LA has stated that all of their IP games will now be made  in-house so probably all is not peaches and cream between LA and BW as well.

  • superniceguysuperniceguy AnchorheadPosts: 2,278Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Esquire1980

    Originally posted by superniceguy

    Originally posted by Esquire1980

    Sorry, but most of the above is simply wrong.  We have Rubenfield's blog that said basicly what happened and why to fall back on now for more than "I think this is why" deal.  LEC may have indeed issued the directive to "fix" the game, (altho we don't know that for sure), but it was Rubenfield et al and SOE Austin that created, discussed, and then implimented the actual changes of the NGE.  Even full well knowing that some CHANGES were going to have most of their playerbase leave.  Per Rubenfiled, they talked about it and he stated the same very clearly.  And even after the NGE, no1 says it was LA's fault for again trying redesigning the game yet again with C6CD - GU-Whatever.  I doubt if LA even cared at that point in time as they probably wrote off SWG in Dec 2005 when they started talks with Bioware.

     

     

    I still say that LA were involved with the way they wanted the NGE, as SWTOR is pretty much the same as the NGE, with 8 classes instead of 9, and a lot of stuff just cut out. SWTOR just seems like the NGE with enhanced version of the Legacy quests / Tansarri quests (which had attempted voice over) with the NGE - minus player housing and cities, dumbed down crafting, dumbed down space, no Beast Master type thing, no player created content system, less freedom of travel etc etc.

    The NGE turned SWG into a WOW clone, but still managed to retain its sandbox elements. SWTOR is now that WOW clone they wanted all along, and has nothing to do with SOE. The only difference with the two is that Bioware had years to polish it, whereas SOE only had a few months and they could not want to shut the game down temporarily, and went for immediate action. If SWG switched to SWTOR as it is now, instead of NGE, even if Bioware took over from the NGE, people still would have quit. They knew people would have quit but thought people would return once gotten over the change. I remember a video of Julio Torres saying this, when expalaining the NGE in 2005. He is from LA, and actually involved with KOTOR and also Force Unleashed. Here is the video, and stating people will return at 2:00 to 2:45 in the video. It was on the G4 site in 2005, this user uploaded it to youtube later.

    SO, basically I now see no differnce between Bioware and SOE, they have both given LA their WOW vision, except Bioware were given a lot more time to get it done, and also I would say if Bioware handled SWG they would have done NGE worse, as SOE are experienced MMO developers whereas Bioware are newbies, assuming SWG would have been their first MMO. You can see their MMO noobness with SWTOR, as it just does not feel like a MMO like, WOW, EQ, EQ2, Vanguard, Aion, Rift, City of Heroes, basically all of them including SWG. SWTOR feels like a single player KOTOR/Mass Effect game with online multiplayer bolted on.

    Rubenfield does state they were asked to re-imagine the game from the ground up.  If that directive came from LA or from SOE San Diego (Smed), he does not elaborate so we do not know the answer to that, period.  You can believe what you want to but the facts are simply not there at this point in time and may never fully be known.

    You do not need facts you just need common sense.

    All public comunication came from LA about NGE, on the forums, and if it was Smed behind it he would be the one taking the flak or praise for it in that G4 video instead of Julio Torres as he has been for the past 5 years, after LA abandoned all communications to the playerbase about SWG. If you were in Julio Torres position and Smed brought in the NGE causing an uproar, would you stand there and take it or let Smed do it and try and sell his NGE? I bet you would get Smed to do it.

    Once the NGE failed, LA just stayed away and let SOE deal with it. SOE could not run away as they owned the site.

    I also do not see SOE making the directive because Star Wars is not their IP. You do not mess with Star Wars or George Lucas will crush you! SOE just maintain and run it. Everything to it points to LA

    Fairy wings is debateable whether is SOE or LA, and I doubt the Fedora and whip was SOEs idea but LA as that was a blatant rip off of Indiana Jones but the NGE is definately LA.

     

  • MMOGamer71MMOGamer71 Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 1,930Member Uncommon

    Never played SWG but I wish I had now.

  • Esquire1980Esquire1980 Stillwater, OKPosts: 529Member

    Originally posted by superniceguy

    Originally posted by Esquire1980

    Originally posted by superniceguy

    Originally posted by Esquire1980

    Sorry, but most of the above is simply wrong.  We have Rubenfield's blog that said basicly what happened and why to fall back on now for more than "I think this is why" deal.  LEC may have indeed issued the directive to "fix" the game, (altho we don't know that for sure), but it was Rubenfield et al and SOE Austin that created, discussed, and then implimented the actual changes of the NGE.  Even full well knowing that some CHANGES were going to have most of their playerbase leave.  Per Rubenfiled, they talked about it and he stated the same very clearly.  And even after the NGE, no1 says it was LA's fault for again trying redesigning the game yet again with C6CD - GU-Whatever.  I doubt if LA even cared at that point in time as they probably wrote off SWG in Dec 2005 when they started talks with Bioware.

     

     

    I still say that LA were involved with the way they wanted the NGE, as SWTOR is pretty much the same as the NGE, with 8 classes instead of 9, and a lot of stuff just cut out. SWTOR just seems like the NGE with enhanced version of the Legacy quests / Tansarri quests (which had attempted voice over) with the NGE - minus player housing and cities, dumbed down crafting, dumbed down space, no Beast Master type thing, no player created content system, less freedom of travel etc etc.

    The NGE turned SWG into a WOW clone, but still managed to retain its sandbox elements. SWTOR is now that WOW clone they wanted all along, and has nothing to do with SOE. The only difference with the two is that Bioware had years to polish it, whereas SOE only had a few months and they could not want to shut the game down temporarily, and went for immediate action. If SWG switched to SWTOR as it is now, instead of NGE, even if Bioware took over from the NGE, people still would have quit. They knew people would have quit but thought people would return once gotten over the change. I remember a video of Julio Torres saying this, when expalaining the NGE in 2005. He is from LA, and actually involved with KOTOR and also Force Unleashed. Here is the video, and stating people will return at 2:00 to 2:45 in the video. It was on the G4 site in 2005, this user uploaded it to youtube later.

    SO, basically I now see no differnce between Bioware and SOE, they have both given LA their WOW vision, except Bioware were given a lot more time to get it done, and also I would say if Bioware handled SWG they would have done NGE worse, as SOE are experienced MMO developers whereas Bioware are newbies, assuming SWG would have been their first MMO. You can see their MMO noobness with SWTOR, as it just does not feel like a MMO like, WOW, EQ, EQ2, Vanguard, Aion, Rift, City of Heroes, basically all of them including SWG. SWTOR feels like a single player KOTOR/Mass Effect game with online multiplayer bolted on.

    Rubenfield does state they were asked to re-imagine the game from the ground up.  If that directive came from LA or from SOE San Diego (Smed), he does not elaborate so we do not know the answer to that, period.  You can believe what you want to but the facts are simply not there at this point in time and may never fully be known.

    You do not need facts you just need common sense.

    All public comunication came from LA about NGE, on the forums, and if it was Smed behind it he would be the one taking the flak or praise for it in that G4 video instead of Julio Torres as he has been for the past 5 years, after LA abandoned all communications to the playerbase about SWG. If you were in Julio Torres position and Smed brought in the NGE causing an uproar, would you stand there and take it or let Smed do it and try and sell his NGE? I bet you would get Smed to do it.

    Once the NGE failed, LA just stayed away and let SOE deal with it. SOE could not run away as they owned the site.

    I also do not see SOE making the directive because Star Wars is not their IP. You do not mess with Star Wars or George Lucas will crush you! SOE just maintain and run it. Everything to it points to LA

    Fairy wings is debateable whether is SOE or LA, and I doubt the Fedora and whip was SOEs idea but LA as that was a blatant rip off of Indiana Jones but the NGE is definately LA.

     

    Sorry, but wrong again.  LA did not make all the communications about NGE.  Torres just made almost the same statements coming out of SOE which I would expect since this was a quasi-partnership and the statements should coinside.

    Smed did take FULL responsibility for the NGE as SOE has stated it was all them and apoligised for it, even.

    Anytime you put aside facts for "common sense" and assumptions you end up with a large problem.  It was well known that SOE made content and LA either yea-ed or nea-ed it.  "Fairy wings, Fedora and whips", or even flying ewoks with hearts on their chests.  All SOE Austin and Oked via LA. Altho fairy wings et al was about as bright in a SW game as zombies.

    I'm not saying here that LA doesn't bear some brunt for the NGE, they do, they Oked it at the least.  They may indeed have placed a directive to "re-imagine" the game as Rubenfield reports, we just simply do not know that at this time and anything else is just an assumption based on nothing.

    As the wife says, "It's dead, Jim" seeing that signature pic I copyed from these forums many years ago in fact.  It really doesn't matter anylonger, does it?  It's gone and it's not coming back.

  • hipiaphipiap Chicago, ILPosts: 439Member

    Originally posted by Esquire1980

    Originally posted by superniceguy


     

    You do not need facts you just need common sense.

    All public comunication came from LA about NGE, on the forums, and if it was Smed behind it he would be the one taking the flak or praise for it in that G4 video instead of Julio Torres as he has been for the past 5 years, after LA abandoned all communications to the playerbase about SWG. If you were in Julio Torres position and Smed brought in the NGE causing an uproar, would you stand there and take it or let Smed do it and try and sell his NGE? I bet you would get Smed to do it.

    Once the NGE failed, LA just stayed away and let SOE deal with it. SOE could not run away as they owned the site.

    I also do not see SOE making the directive because Star Wars is not their IP. You do not mess with Star Wars or George Lucas will crush you! SOE just maintain and run it. Everything to it points to LA

    Fairy wings is debateable whether is SOE or LA, and I doubt the Fedora and whip was SOEs idea but LA as that was a blatant rip off of Indiana Jones but the NGE is definately LA.

     

    Sorry, but wrong again.  LA did not make all the communications about NGE.  Torres just made almost the same statements coming out of SOE which I would expect since this was a quasi-partnership and the statements should coinside.

    Smed did take FULL responsibility for the NGE as SOE has stated it was all them and apoligised for it, even.

    Anytime you put aside facts for "common sense" and assumptions you end up with a large problem.  It was well known that SOE made content and LA either yea-ed or nea-ed it.  "Fairy wings, Fedora and whips", or even flying ewoks with hearts on their chests.  All SOE Austin and Oked via LA. Altho fairy wings et al was about as bright in a SW game as zombies.

    I'm not saying here that LA doesn't bear some brunt for the NGE, they do, they Oked it at the least.  They may indeed have placed a directive to "re-imagine" the game as Rubenfield reports, we just simply do not know that at this time and anything else is just an assumption based on nothing.

    As the wife says, "It's dead, Jim" seeing that signature pic I copyed from these forums many years ago in fact.  It really doesn't matter anylonger, does it?  It's gone and it's not coming back.

    Sorry Esquire....but LA was in charge..LEC was in Control...And they ignored everything they wanted to ignore.

     

    Smedley and Cao and Freeman could beg to do anything ....but unless LEC signed off on it....they were not allowed to do diddly squat to SW:G other than Maintain and Debug.

    Pex could beg to do Live Events every day...but if Julio said "no' that was it.

    On the flip side...If LEC told Smedley to take the blame for the NGE...He would. SWG is the Only reason Verant was bought out by SOE...and he owes LA for his increased  'importance' in the MMO world. 

    I went to a few Cons that had SOE employees at them...and we had some chats.

    Why would they talk to me, a meer subscriber?  I once Worked for Sony before I left the private sector for municipal work.

    A Sony ID gets you past alot of their conversational roadblocks.

    SOE is not and has never been Happy about the way LEC allowed them to manage Galaxies.  That is Fact and that is also the most they would tell little old me.

    Here is a list::

     

    John Smedley, SOE, SOE President, CUNGE, "The CU is here to stay"



    Julio "Tora!" Torres, LEC, LEC Producer, NGE, Senior LEC person involved



    Dan Rubbenfield, SOE, SOE Manager, NGE, Ordered the NGE done.



    Chris "I Had A" Cao, SOE Manager, NGE, infamous "F-U players" post, heavily involved in the NGE creation.



    Nancy McIntyre, LEC, LEC Marketting manager, NGE, insulted every single customer SWG ever had with her "too much reading", "uncle Owen" quotes, etc.



    Kai "Dork Lord Heliass" Steinmann, SOE Lead Designer, NGE, "and you just sat there and it was fun?"

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    John is stuck at SOE and has to kiss serious butt to remain there because no one is going to hire him at this point.

    Nancy only worked for LEC from 20052007 and is directly responsible for the Focus Groups that brought us the NGE. then she went to Leapfrog to help market childrens games. Before LEC she was with Atari doing the same thing..Childrens games that didn't require an iq to play.

    Julio is still with LEC after being moved from SW:G to TFU and TFU2.

    Chris Cao is with SOE still, hiding in DCUO and avoiding players at conventions. Why SOE sends his butt to conventions, I don't know.

    Dan is MIA....no info on basic Websearches...but he ordered the NGE after LEC decided they wanted the game dumbed down to 'attract' more of the WoW gamers.

    Kai is the owning manager at Darkmoon Studios in Austin....so watch out on that brand name.

    MMO History: 2528 days in SW:G
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  • warmaster670warmaster670 Simcoe, ONPosts: 1,384Member

    only a fool calls something crap thats hes never played, fact.

    Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
    Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.

  • warmaster670warmaster670 Simcoe, ONPosts: 1,384Member

    Originally posted by Kazara

    Originally posted by nerovipus32


    Originally posted by superniceguy


    Originally posted by DarthRaiden

    (and somwewhat proud of it)

    who else didn't touched that POS $OE thought at us that was NGE ?

    I am a pure PRE - NGE'r and my respect goes to pure PRE CU 'r  who even didn't touched and resisted even the CU.

     

     

    That is a shame, you missed out big time. You can not call it a POS if you never played it, and the NGE ended up being awesome in the end. To base an opinion off of others is nothing to do be proud of.

    As for the sig - you never won, as  both SW MMOs could not run side by side, and SWTOR won by default. If SWG stayed active and then bombed with the release of SWTOR and then closed then you would have won, but if SWG did not close I reckon people would have left SWTOR and started playing SWG, killing SWTOR. Most posts I see on the official forums is from people negatively criticising SWTOR, even ones who did not like/play SWG. I do not see people playing SWTOR much after 6 months, if that.

    SWTOR will be great and all and give a better experiemnce than SWG, but will be short lived. SWGs systems kept you hooked for eternity. I could never see myself quitting SWG, even after playing it solidly from July 2003. I can not see myself playing SWTOR after a few months

    Also SOE is not solely responsible for the NGE, it was LA who are the main culprits, as they were the ones who agreed on it. SW is LAs IP and baby, not SOEs. If SOE solely were responsible, then LA would have sued SOE and/or pulled the SW licence from SOE and SWG would have shut down in 2006 or 2007.

    If you avoided SWG NGE then you will need to avoid SWTOR as well.

    I played the NGE and it was a POS.



    The mass exodus of SWG players since the NGE went live, the closing of half the servers and then the decision to completely close SWG  attest to the epic  fail the NGE was. Sure, there were some players that thought it was great, but they are clearly the minority by far. $OE has more than earned the horrible reputation it has and denial will not change that reality.

    And without teh NGE SWG would still be dead, the game was and always will be crap.

    Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
    Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.

  • hipiaphipiap Chicago, ILPosts: 439Member

    Originally posted by warmaster670

    only a fool calls something crap thats hes never played, fact.

    We have a winner here.

     

    I can call STo and EVE and WOW and TOR and DDO and a ton of other games crap if I feel that way because I tried them.

     

    If I have never played a particular version of a game...or during a specific era of that game....I can't have an opinion of it.

     

    I started SW:G in 2004 on a full time basis December 25th..............I last played SW:G Dec 15, 2011.

    I am entitled to an Opinion of Pre-CU, CURB, Pre-NGE, NGE, Post NGE, Post AI ungrade..pre-GCW revamp...Post GCW revamp...Pre Base Bust Nerf...Post Base Bust Nerf....Pre Atmospheric Flight...Post Atmos Flight.....Pre-Atmospheric Combat/Air to Ground.....

    I will miss the Good, The Bad and the Ugly because they were ALL SW:G.

     

    MMO History: 2528 days in SW:G
    image

  • superniceguysuperniceguy AnchorheadPosts: 2,278Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Esquire1980

    As the wife says, "It's dead, Jim" seeing that signature pic I copyed from these forums many years ago in fact.  It really doesn't matter anylonger, does it?  It's gone and it's not coming back.

    I emailed LA saying that SWTOR is no where a good as SWG and would like it back, and they passed my feedback on to the relevant people. SWG can come back by popular demand, but if people think there is no hope and do not let LA know then it will not come back.

    At the rate the server populations are dropping in SWTOR it will be deader than what SWG was in June if not what it was in Dec!

    People keep complaining that all MMOs are alike these days and there are huge amount of threads on all SWTOR forums around the internet saying they are finished with SWTOR, they enjoyed the game but there is just nothing left to do now.

    SWG when it went down had a tonne of things to keep you subbed forever and ever which are not just not as good or better in SWTOR, just non existent. All they need to do now is fix SWG up which was not possible when active, and relaunch it, even if it is LA running it. They do not even have to add any content, the players create enough content as it is.

    Either that or SWTOR is going to need to get those SWG elements that kept people subbing to it, despite all the changes. I used to hate WOW, but WOW has more to offer than SWTOR does, although WOW does not have as much as SWG did, but I see myself playing WOW longer than SWTOR, which is sad.

  • KazaraKazara merritt island, FLPosts: 1,075Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by superniceguy

    Originally posted by Esquire1980



    As the wife says, "It's dead, Jim" seeing that signature pic I copyed from these forums many years ago in fact.  It really doesn't matter anylonger, does it?  It's gone and it's not coming back.

    I emailed LA saying that SWTOR is no where a good as SWG and would like it back, and they passed my feedback on to the relevant people. SWG can come back by popular demand, but if people think there is no hope and do not let LA know then it will not come back.

     

    LOL! I don't think this will be happening ever. How well did the 'petition'  to save SWG work out after the closure announcement was made? How many even bothered to sign it?

    $OE/LA  will not be bringing SWG back. it is gone - let it go.

    image

  • SuvrocSuvroc Toronto, ONPosts: 2,383Member

    So they said they passed your feedback on? What else did you expect them to say? It's not like they're going to say "thanks for your email but we're simply going to delete your feedback" - which is very likely what did happen!

  • superniceguysuperniceguy AnchorheadPosts: 2,278Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Kazara

    Originally posted by superniceguy


    Originally posted by Esquire1980



    As the wife says, "It's dead, Jim" seeing that signature pic I copyed from these forums many years ago in fact.  It really doesn't matter anylonger, does it?  It's gone and it's not coming back.

    I emailed LA saying that SWTOR is no where a good as SWG and would like it back, and they passed my feedback on to the relevant people. SWG can come back by popular demand, but if people think there is no hope and do not let LA know then it will not come back.

     

    LOL! I don't think this will be happening ever. How well did the 'petition'  to save SWG work out after the closure announcement was made? How many even bothered to sign it?

    $OE/LA  will not be bringing SWG back. it is gone - let it go.

    It was the best MMO out there, and deserves to be brought back.

    The petition did not work at the time because there was all hope on SWTOR, now it is not that great as expected they are now realising why people went all out to try and save it, and the peition was not a wasted effort.

    Before Dec LA were ignoring me, but now in Jan when they are seeing the decline on SWTOR they are not and realising that SWG had more attraction than they thought.

    Something is going to be done - either SWG is brought back or SWTOR changes to be more like it. Preferably SWG is brought back, and then leave SWTOR as it is, otherwise it will be like another NGE

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