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"guild housing launched in EQ2 and saw Qeynos and Freeport die virtually over night."

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Comments

  • rutaqrutaq somerville, MAPosts: 428Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Loke666

    Originally posted by Robokapp

    solution is to give space in or near cities to build non-instanced houses.

    Well said.

    It was instancing that killed Q and Freep, not guildhouses.

    Agreed.  Guild Housing is fine, but not when instanced and filled with teleporters to zip you around the world.

     

  • fivorothfivoroth LondonPosts: 3,665Member Uncommon

    You go for non-instanced housing and you get another huge problem. Space... Where do you put all those houses? Even if you use a renting system, it will still require a ridiculous amount of space around cities. If a city can allow for only 100 houses, then what's left for the other 5-10k+ people on the server?

    Or is the idea just to throw huge areas of empty space around cities and hope that population is not super high as in games like WoW?

    Another issue renting brings is what happens to my stuff when my house is removed or am kicked out of the house? I keep them in a crate or do I lose them? Also what if I spent a lot of time on designing my house? Do I have to start all over again?

    I think that instanced housing is fine. However, you don't put in any amenities like AH in there. You never ever do that. Housing should serve only for decorating purposes.

    Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  • Swollen_BeefSwollen_Beef Tampa, FLPosts: 200Member

    Originally posted by Loke666

    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Originally posted by Robokapp

    solution is to give space in or near cities to build non-instanced houses.

    It leads to another problem .. the ghetto in UO.

    Plus, it won't solve the problem. Everyone will still be inside their guild housing. You won't be in another instance with them, but you still cannot see them, unless there is no WALLS in the guild housing.

    Yeah, a lot of that issue is however because you can craft inside the guildhouse and have a broker there. Take those 2 things away and there wont be so much problems.

    As for the player houses actually allowing players to build house without much city planning will indeed create a slum that LeSoto can't compete with.

    Either you let people rent prebuilt houses which is easiest and evict players who havn't paid the rent or you have some order and let the players buy lots which only support certain kind of buildings instead depending on the lot. 

    The last thing makes it so the town looks somewhat planned at least, anyone just throwing up a building anywhere might sound sandboxy, but the towns you build becomes ugly, ill planned slums.

    DOAC's housing zone solved the planning issue since the zones were planned and the houses could only go in designated areas. 

    They used pre-built hoses. I believe there were 3 types of houses. standard, 2 story, and a 3 story mansion gimmick. Each had weekly rent that had to be paid (you could put up to 5 weeks payment into a lock box in case you went on vacation or what have not)

    You could also put up your own NPC that sold YOUR stuff. give your stuff to the NPC, set the price, and forget about it. 

    Now this posed an issue. At the start, you had to physically visit the house to buy from the NPC. Pros being you visited the house someone spent time on, possibly met someone or the owner itself. Cons being the travel there and then trying to find the house. While the plots were numbered, they werent exactly sequencial. A grouping could be numbered 501-524 and the grouping next to it could be 436-460. 

    Later they allowed players to just buy directly from the market explorers. This lead many to tear down their huge houses and just settle for the cheapest house with only the needed items. since no one was visiting houses anymore. 

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member

    It's pretty obvious what the solution is..non instanced housing.

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    Originally posted by Robokapp

    build...buy...you get the idea. the house is just a house. a pair of walls with an interior. not something behind a loading screen.

     

    not something where people go into an vanish from the outside (virtual) world.

     

    it's simple. they have to complicate it with instancing. it can be so simple...does every building have a loading screen when you get through the door? no. why would a player house need to?

     

     

    edit: adding onto this idea. I looks at various "npc cities" like stormwind or the few towns I visited in lineage 2. big huge buildings...with one big room and 2 guys sitting in a corner. looking at stormwind for example, how many buildings and stores actually serve a prupose?

     

    they're struggling to create cities of "city-like" sizes because they have nothing to fill the builings up with. This is where we can come in. We can make cities, make them grow, by expanding on outskirts, and they only need to give us a handful of key administrative structures like bank, action house, maybe a general goods store etc. We can settle the fields around and form the city. save them the task of figuring out what pointless npc to put in nameless building #23321. should he sell roasted rats or shoe strings?

     

    Problem: how would a city like in the WoW example you listed, support persistent player housing for the entire server population?



    yeah even with instances inside the persistent player house, wouldn't that still lead to the same issues of Instanced player housing, in that players would go there rather than hang out in the cities?

    it's not like there are 10 million players on a wow server, so we are talking about a number in the thousands. capital cities should be in an empty space with areas availabe for future expansion i.e player housing.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by nerovipus32

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    Originally posted by Robokapp
    build...buy...you get the idea. the house is just a house. a pair of walls with an interior. not something behind a loading screen.
     
    not something where people go into an vanish from the outside (virtual) world.
     
    it's simple. they have to complicate it with instancing. it can be so simple...does every building have a loading screen when you get through the door? no. why would a player house need to?
     
     
    edit: adding onto this idea. I looks at various "npc cities" like stormwind or the few towns I visited in lineage 2. big huge buildings...with one big room and 2 guys sitting in a corner. looking at stormwind for example, how many buildings and stores actually serve a prupose?
     
    they're struggling to create cities of "city-like" sizes because they have nothing to fill the builings up with. This is where we can come in. We can make cities, make them grow, by expanding on outskirts, and they only need to give us a handful of key administrative structures like bank, action house, maybe a general goods store etc. We can settle the fields around and form the city. save them the task of figuring out what pointless npc to put in nameless building #23321. should he sell roasted rats or shoe strings?
     
    Problem: how would a city like in the WoW example you listed, support persistent player housing for the entire server population?

    yeah even with instances inside the persistent player house, wouldn't that still lead to the same issues of Instanced player housing, in that players would go there rather than hang out in the cities?

    it's not like there are 10 million players on a wow server, so we are talking about a number in the thousands. capital cities should be in an empty space with areas availabe for future expansion i.e player housing.



    No. You don't implement something like that in WoW. There isn't enough space for 1,600 houses. It would be the single largest feature in the entire game. You have to design the game around the idea of having something like that, not just toss it in and expect it to work.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • IadienIadien Charleston, WVPosts: 638Member

    It not only makes sense ( I have no idea why they did not see that the convience of a guild hall would kill cities) but it is exactly what happened. Even though Freeport was just updated a month ago, the convience of guild halls with all of the easy ports, broker access, tradeskills, etc. it is still pretty empty. There just aren't many reasons to ever go to cities and hang out. They killed the social aspect of cities over night, indeed, and players have been calling the EQ2 team out ever since they were implemented, which was years ago.


    Originally posted by nerovipus32

    It's pretty obvious what the solution is..non instanced housing.

    That is how guild houses were implemented initially, but they couldn't make it happen. Guild houses were going to be in the commonlands and other zones and once a guild was able to afford the guild house and move in, nobody else could, unless the guild could no longer afford the upkeep.

  • marinridermarinrider Tomball, TXPosts: 1,556Member

    Oh goodness me.  So if they added this to rift then the issue becomes this:

     

    Oh no! People are no longer sitting around in the boring, unrealistic cities and queing for everything, but now they are sitting in slightly less boring guild / player housing and queuing for everything!

     

    Honestly, player interaction in rift stays about the same since everything is a random queue and the only people I actually see in the main city are AFKers.

     

    Edit: Main city... who am I kidding... only city.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,028Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by marinrider

    Oh goodness me.  So if they added this to rift then the issue becomes this:

    Oh no! People are no longer sitting around in the boring, unrealistic cities and queing for everything, but now they are sitting in slightly less boring guild / player housing and queuing for everything!

    Honestly, player interaction in rift stays about the same since everything is a random queue and the only people I actually see in the main city are AFKers.

    Edit: Main city... who am I kidding... only city.

    Yeah, but that just say that Rift already have other problems.

    The thing is that MMOs used to be a lot more social than they are today. There isn't much you actually do in the cities besides crafting and going to the AH.

    They need to add more social stuff, why can't we play a game of dice or cards at the local tavern, go and physically (and none instanced) enter the arena to watch some players PvP while betting on one or the other and similar minigames?

    MMOs needs to invent new fun reasons to socialize with other players, or the whole games will continue to turn into qued up dungeons and battlegrounds together with soloplay. It have gotten pretty bad the last few years and seems to keep getting worse...

  • marinridermarinrider Tomball, TXPosts: 1,556Member

    Originally posted by Loke666

    Originally posted by marinrider

    Oh goodness me.  So if they added this to rift then the issue becomes this:

    Oh no! People are no longer sitting around in the boring, unrealistic cities and queing for everything, but now they are sitting in slightly less boring guild / player housing and queuing for everything!

    Honestly, player interaction in rift stays about the same since everything is a random queue and the only people I actually see in the main city are AFKers.

    Edit: Main city... who am I kidding... only city.

    Yeah, but that just say that Rift already have other problems.

    The thing is that MMOs used to be a lot more social than they are today. There isn't much you actually do in the cities besides crafting and going to the AH.

    They need to add more social stuff, why can't we play a game of dice or cards at the local tavern, go and physically (and none instanced) enter the arena to watch some players PvP while betting on one or the other and similar minigames?

    MMOs needs to invent new fun reasons to socialize with other players, or the whole games will continue to turn into qued up dungeons and battlegrounds together with soloplay. It have gotten pretty bad the last few years and seems to keep getting worse...

    Thats why I believe that instanced housing in rift wont really make things worse because its already pretty bad.  Now, in other games I would say it shouldnt be instanced, but in rift it doesnt matter.

    I'm on the same page as you, I remember when AOC was supposed to have drunken brawling in taverns.  Now that was going to be awesome. 

    Your dice example reminded me of the little games you can play in Fable with npcs in the tavern.  What if there were some tables just sitting around and you sat at them and someoen came up and sat with you and you played a game.  No queueing up for it and no instancing.  You actually walk up to the table, you see who is sitting at the table, you choose to join them.  Simple. 

    Hopefully GW2's minigames will add a bit of what we want, but even then I dont feel like it will be enough.  I still have high hopes for GW2's social interaction aspect none the less.

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member

    Originally posted by lizardbones

     




    Originally posted by nerovipus32





    Originally posted by MMOExposed






    Originally posted by Robokapp

    build...buy...you get the idea. the house is just a house. a pair of walls with an interior. not something behind a loading screen.

     

    not something where people go into an vanish from the outside (virtual) world.

     

    it's simple. they have to complicate it with instancing. it can be so simple...does every building have a loading screen when you get through the door? no. why would a player house need to?

     

     

    edit: adding onto this idea. I looks at various "npc cities" like stormwind or the few towns I visited in lineage 2. big huge buildings...with one big room and 2 guys sitting in a corner. looking at stormwind for example, how many buildings and stores actually serve a prupose?

     

    they're struggling to create cities of "city-like" sizes because they have nothing to fill the builings up with. This is where we can come in. We can make cities, make them grow, by expanding on outskirts, and they only need to give us a handful of key administrative structures like bank, action house, maybe a general goods store etc. We can settle the fields around and form the city. save them the task of figuring out what pointless npc to put in nameless building #23321. should he sell roasted rats or shoe strings?






     

    Problem: how would a city like in the WoW example you listed, support persistent player housing for the entire server population?



    yeah even with instances inside the persistent player house, wouldn't that still lead to the same issues of Instanced player housing, in that players would go there rather than hang out in the cities?





    it's not like there are 10 million players on a wow server, so we are talking about a number in the thousands. capital cities should be in an empty space with areas availabe for future expansion i.e player housing.







    No. You don't implement something like that in WoW. There isn't enough space for 1,600 houses. It would be the single largest feature in the entire game. You have to design the game around the idea of having something like that, not just toss it in and expect it to work.

     

    to be honest i don't care about wow it was the previous person who quoted me who brought up wow. the game needs to be either a sandbox or have a massive seamless world for non instanced housing to work.

  • VegettaVegetta Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 438Member


    Originally posted by Robokapp
    solution is to give space in or near cities to build non-instanced houses.
     
     

    If RIft added that I would pick up my sub again. Especially if they had the customization like UO does.

    image

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member

    Originally posted by Loke666

    Originally posted by marinrider

    Oh goodness me.  So if they added this to rift then the issue becomes this:

    Oh no! People are no longer sitting around in the boring, unrealistic cities and queing for everything, but now they are sitting in slightly less boring guild / player housing and queuing for everything!

    Honestly, player interaction in rift stays about the same since everything is a random queue and the only people I actually see in the main city are AFKers.

    Edit: Main city... who am I kidding... only city.

    Yeah, but that just say that Rift already have other problems.

    The thing is that MMOs used to be a lot more social than they are today. There isn't much you actually do in the cities besides crafting and going to the AH.

    They need to add more social stuff, why can't we play a game of dice or cards at the local tavern, go and physically (and none instanced) enter the arena to watch some players PvP while betting on one or the other and similar minigames?

    MMOs needs to invent new fun reasons to socialize with other players, or the whole games will continue to turn into qued up dungeons and battlegrounds together with soloplay. It have gotten pretty bad the last few years and seems to keep getting worse...

    This.

    Thats the problem with themepark mmo's they are designed for players to be competitive against each other and not to socialize.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by nerovipus32

    Originally posted by lizardbones
     


    Originally posted by nerovipus32



    Originally posted by MMOExposed




    Originally posted by Robokapp
    build...buy...you get the idea. the house is just a house. a pair of walls with an interior. not something behind a loading screen.
     
    not something where people go into an vanish from the outside (virtual) world.
     
    it's simple. they have to complicate it with instancing. it can be so simple...does every building have a loading screen when you get through the door? no. why would a player house need to?
     
     
    edit: adding onto this idea. I looks at various "npc cities" like stormwind or the few towns I visited in lineage 2. big huge buildings...with one big room and 2 guys sitting in a corner. looking at stormwind for example, how many buildings and stores actually serve a prupose?
     
    they're struggling to create cities of "city-like" sizes because they have nothing to fill the builings up with. This is where we can come in. We can make cities, make them grow, by expanding on outskirts, and they only need to give us a handful of key administrative structures like bank, action house, maybe a general goods store etc. We can settle the fields around and form the city. save them the task of figuring out what pointless npc to put in nameless building #23321. should he sell roasted rats or shoe strings?



     
    Problem: how would a city like in the WoW example you listed, support persistent player housing for the entire server population?

    yeah even with instances inside the persistent player house, wouldn't that still lead to the same issues of Instanced player housing, in that players would go there rather than hang out in the cities?




    it's not like there are 10 million players on a wow server, so we are talking about a number in the thousands. capital cities should be in an empty space with areas availabe for future expansion i.e player housing.





    No. You don't implement something like that in WoW. There isn't enough space for 1,600 houses. It would be the single largest feature in the entire game. You have to design the game around the idea of having something like that, not just toss it in and expect it to work.

     


    to be honest i don't care about wow it was the previous person who quoted me who brought up wow. the game needs to be either a sandbox or have a massive seamless world for non instanced housing to work.



    Yup.

    Theme Park -> Instanced Housing
    Sandbox -> Non-instanced Housing
    Main NPC Cities -> Minimal Housing Functionality
    No Cities or Minimal Functionality In Cities -> Housing has more functionality

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,028Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by marinrider

    Thats why I believe that instanced housing in rift wont really make things worse because its already pretty bad.  Now, in other games I would say it shouldnt be instanced, but in rift it doesnt matter.

    I'm on the same page as you, I remember when AOC was supposed to have drunken brawling in taverns.  Now that was going to be awesome. 

    Your dice example reminded me of the little games you can play in Fable with npcs in the tavern.  What if there were some tables just sitting around and you sat at them and someoen came up and sat with you and you played a game.  No queueing up for it and no instancing.  You actually walk up to the table, you see who is sitting at the table, you choose to join them.  Simple. 

    Hopefully GW2's minigames will add a bit of what we want, but even then I dont feel like it will be enough.  I still have high hopes for GW2's social interaction aspect none the less.

    Yeah, player houses wont make the problem larger, or at least not much larger. Few players sit in their empty house all day anyways, it is just a small sandbox feature that some people like.

    And yeah, that is what I was thinking about. MMOs always have taverns but no one is there. Conan spends a lot of time in taverns and they do have a huge potential for fun that is very easy for the devs to add without destroying the game balance.

    There are potentially a lot more you can add, just look on any outpost in GW with a holiday minigame in, it is really crowded and more socializing happens there during the few days those are on than during the rest of the year. But minigames don't have to be complicated, a simple game of nucklebone is fun as well, or throwing knives at a barrel or something.

    A boardgame that is a bit similar to chess but simpler and faster would be fun as well.

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member

    swg cantinas were a hive of social activity, why? because players were dependant on eachother, in this case entertainer buffs. waiting for a shuttle always ended up in random social encounters. the medical center in swg was another social hub, people would queue to get doctor buffs. the image designer tents where you had to interact with another player to change your characters appearance,  all examples of why swg was a great experience. other players make mmo's great not neccessarily the content or end game.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Originally posted by dreamscaper

    This. Non-instanced housing kills this problem dead.

    Provided abandoned home removal is handled properly.  City of Slums is the result otherwise.  (We've seen that one).

     

     

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • CeridithCeridith Toronto, ONPosts: 2,980Member

    Originally posted by nerovipus32

    swg cantinas were a hive of social activity, why? because players were dependant on eachother, in this case entertainer buffs. waiting for a shuttle always ended up in random social encounters. the medical center in swg was another social hub, people would queue to get doctor buffs. the image designer tents where you had to interact with another player to change your characters appearance,  all examples of why swg was a great experience. other players make mmo's great not neccessarily the content or end game.

    Exactly.

    SWG had non-instanced player housing, but most players still visited cities because there was social interdependency in the game.

    Unfortunately, most players these days kick and scream if you design a game that "forces" them to interact with other players... what a sad time in MMOs we live in.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Ceridith

    Originally posted by nerovipus32

    swg cantinas were a hive of social activity, why? because players were dependant on eachother, in this case entertainer buffs. waiting for a shuttle always ended up in random social encounters. the medical center in swg was another social hub, people would queue to get doctor buffs. the image designer tents where you had to interact with another player to change your characters appearance,  all examples of why swg was a great experience. other players make mmo's great not neccessarily the content or end game.

    Exactly.

    SWG had non-instanced player housing, but most players still visited cities because there was social interdependency in the game.

    Unfortunately, most players these days kick and scream if you design a game that "forces" them to interact with other players... what a sad time in MMOs we live in.

    Well, it seems that for 15.00 a month players bitterly resent any game mechanic that forces them to do anything not to their liking, and they expect it to be changed to cater to them.

    Strange days indeed.

    But as you and the others have stated, unless Developers provide some content unique to social hubs that at least is so interesting that players willingly flock to participate (if they are not to be forced) then the issue of dead social areas will continue.

     

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
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  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Originally posted by Ceridith


    Originally posted by nerovipus32

    swg cantinas were a hive of social activity, why? because players were dependant on eachother, in this case entertainer buffs. waiting for a shuttle always ended up in random social encounters. the medical center in swg was another social hub, people would queue to get doctor buffs. the image designer tents where you had to interact with another player to change your characters appearance,  all examples of why swg was a great experience. other players make mmo's great not neccessarily the content or end game.

    Exactly.

    SWG had non-instanced player housing, but most players still visited cities because there was social interdependency in the game.

    Unfortunately, most players these days kick and scream if you design a game that "forces" them to interact with other players... what a sad time in MMOs we live in.

    Well, it seems that for 15.00 a month players bitterly resent any game mechanic that forces them to do anything not to their liking, and they expect it to be changed to cater to them.

    Strange days indeed.

    But as you and the others have stated, unless Developers provide some content unique to social hubs that at least is so interesting that players willingly flock to participate (if they are not to be forced) then the issue of dead social areas will continue.

     

     

    i bet if you gave them epics they would.

  • AmarantharAmaranthar OhioPosts: 2,430Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by lizardbones

     




    Originally posted by Amaranthar





    Originally posted by Mendel






    Originally posted by Cactus-Man








    Originally posted by dreamscaper








    Originally posted by Robokapp



    solution is to give space in or near cities to build non-instanced houses.

     

     






     

    This. Non-instanced housing kills this problem dead.






    That doesn't solve the problem at all though,

    The issue being brought up is redundancy, having two things that perform the same function means players will find the one that is the most fun or efficient and largely ignore the other.

    It doesn't matter if it is instanced or not, if you can do the same things in your house and cities then there is little reason for players to use both.

    The only way to solve redundancy is remove one of the options or give the options totally different functionalities.






    I'm with Cactus-Man here.  Having dedicated space for housing doesn't really eliminate the problem, it changes it.  Non-instanced housing, even rented, means that there is a draw to pull players from the 'city centers'.

    And non-instancing brings other issues, as well.  Games don't currently have mechanisms for 'ownership' of real estate within the continuous world.  The developers have to keep other people out of the space you've rented, and that's pretty easy to do with a loading screen.  Additionally, there's a whole security issue.  How many people are willing to put down their ultravaluable Sword_Of_Uberness_081623 when just anyone can pick it up?  So, it's your room/house/palace, if the developers don't keep interlopers away, your sword will be looted almost before you can blink.  Normal social rules, conventions and taboos are too easily ignored in a computer game, and implementing such moral behavior into a game would probably be nightmarish.  Most all of the fantasy-based games have some sort of burgler or thief class, even.  I can already hear the 'we wanna break and enter' cry now.

    For the forseeable future, instanced housing is easier for the developers to implement.  But I think the issues associated with instanced housing are far easier to live with than a non-instanced alternative.






    First off, as Cactus-Man said the issue here is the usage between cities and private housing. It's the activity of use that's the issue. If you can do the same things at your house as you can in the cities, one or the other isn't going to be used. The real problem is that there isn't enough activity to spread around between the two.

     

    You need to have activities that players both want and need that are separate for each.







    Or eliminate the NPC City as the main social hub of the game. Have players build up cities, and the if you have main NPC factions, they are just somewhere else that players don't go. Maybe players go there for training or something and that's it.

     

    Same thing though. Whether it's a NPC or Player built city, cities need to have functionality that's part of game play. And that functionality has to be something players want to participate in and enjoy playing.

    Once upon a time....

  • VyethVyeth Fayetteville, NCPosts: 1,459Member

    Originally posted by Robokapp

    solution is to give space in or near cities to build non-instanced houses.

     

     

    VG was onto this pretty hard before the updates stopped...

    If they ever get that game straight and turn it F2P, many of you guys will see how a world is done..

    You actually had to buy your land in a housing area in the main world, then you had to really build it with supplies from crafting.. Just like boats.. It takes work, but you could have a house right there...

    image

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