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Okay I get it now....

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  • Master10KMaster10K LondonPosts: 3,065Member

    Originally posted by Bunks

    The whole trinity idea was so foreign to me only just three years ago. After being exposed to it, my initial thought was how contrived and artificial it all was. It actually required the dev to "create" the tactic to work with an artificial thing called agro. Anotehr word for idiotic AI opponent.

    I've alwasy wanted a game that used combined arms, since it is the real way to wage war. Other than the few games I've played over the years (Operation Flashpoint, Armed Assault ect) where this was standard practice to plan out an attack using *gasp* tactics. GW2 is the first MMO I've seen that is actually pushing the concept hard. Im sure there were others, but this was the first I have been exposed to in this genre.  Amen to that!

    Yeah, I'm glad that I only got really into these silly MMO combat mechanics with Rift. So it will be much easily for me to adapt, since playing GW2 will be like playing my other co-op games, not these generic MMORPGs.

    image

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    Originally posted by Master10K

    Originally posted by Bunks

    The whole trinity idea was so foreign to me only just three years ago. After being exposed to it, my initial thought was how contrived and artificial it all was. It actually required the dev to "create" the tactic to work with an artificial thing called agro. Anotehr word for idiotic AI opponent.

    I've alwasy wanted a game that used combined arms, since it is the real way to wage war. Other than the few games I've played over the years (Operation Flashpoint, Armed Assault ect) where this was standard practice to plan out an attack using *gasp* tactics. GW2 is the first MMO I've seen that is actually pushing the concept hard. Im sure there were others, but this was the first I have been exposed to in this genre.  Amen to that!

    Yeah, I'm glad that I only got really into these silly MMO combat mechanics with Rift. So it will be much easily for me to adapt, since playing GW2 will be like playing my other co-op games, not these generic MMORPGs.

    I really don't think it should be that hard for people to adapt if they ever played any other kind of multiplayer game.  I can go from playing Rift to playing BF3 without any issues.

    To be honest, I think people are just fishing for arguments.  I can understand that some people LIKE the trinity system and may not like that GW2 doesn't have it. 

    But I don't think that the vast majority of people are to stupid to understand a non-trinity system.  And this tends to be where these arguments go.  "No one will get it if it's not the trinity!"

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  • BunksBunks New Port Richey, FLPosts: 960Member

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Originally posted by Master10K


    Originally posted by Bunks

    The whole trinity idea was so foreign to me only just three years ago. After being exposed to it, my initial thought was how contrived and artificial it all was. It actually required the dev to "create" the tactic to work with an artificial thing called agro. Anotehr word for idiotic AI opponent.

    I've alwasy wanted a game that used combined arms, since it is the real way to wage war. Other than the few games I've played over the years (Operation Flashpoint, Armed Assault ect) where this was standard practice to plan out an attack using *gasp* tactics. GW2 is the first MMO I've seen that is actually pushing the concept hard. Im sure there were others, but this was the first I have been exposed to in this genre.  Amen to that!

    Yeah, I'm glad that I only got really into these silly MMO combat mechanics with Rift. So it will be much easily for me to adapt, since playing GW2 will be like playing my other co-op games, not these generic MMORPGs.

    I really don't think it should be that hard for people to adapt if they ever played any other kind of multiplayer game.  I can go from playing Rift to playing BF3 without any issues.

    To be honest, I think people are just fishing for arguments.  I can understand that some people LIKE the trinity system and may not like that GW2 doesn't have it. 

    But I don't think that the vast majority of people are to stupid to understand a non-trinity system.  And this tends to be where these arguments go.  "No one will get it if it's not the trinity!"

    At first, I thought the non trinity system would drive away a few players. There are some who really only wish to be a healer. But overall I think you are right, a few dozen wipes should cure all the trinity zealots of their religiousity rather quickly.

  • ZecktorinZecktorin Bloomingdale, MIPosts: 231Member

    Originally posted by Requiamer

     






    Originally posted by Zecktorin

    After studying I do see the beauty in GW2.... looks pretty good, but I just dunno if I can go without a tank,dps,and heals... I enjoy that structure the most in alot of my MMOs. I just don't think it will work for me, but I will give it a try. :)




     

    They are a lot of mmo that don't have dedicated healer or tank. IF you can't really grasp how it can work just think about all the player vs player type of computer games; like fps or rts or whatever rpg coop games around. You really don't need dps/healer/tank trilogy to make combat and group combat interesting, its clearly not needed at all. Its just a way to do it, that's all. You can always try those non trinity mmo like Uo for example.

     

    What i don't understand is how some people cannot even visualize non trinity combat. I mean not a single coop computer games work with some kind of trilogy. Is it like a kind of religion i'm not aware of or something? I don't say that to offend you, but really i'm not sure if i'm serious or not here, it's just weird at this point how many people have asked the same question.

    A very large majority of multiplayer games never ever had trinity. How can it be weird to some people is beyond me.

    I never said I didn't unserstand teh system lol... just that I like my MMO with dps/tank/heal classes... 0.o I mean only game I played that didn't have this was EvE but a system like that wouldn't work for EvE...

  • cali59cali59 B, NYPosts: 1,634Member

    I think the way you have to think of it is that players don't have roles.  Unlike a holy trinity game, the tank doesn't generate aggro and the dps try to do as much dps as they can without going over.  Mob aggro, as was pointed out earlier, can vary based on a lot of things, one of the main ones is proximity.  It's not which player is the tank, it's who is the enemy attacking at this moment?

    Unlike a holy trinity game where everybody has certain jobs, instead think about the 5 classes you have in the dungeon and how you can combine your skills to beat an encounter.  Maybe everybody takes control skills.  Maybe nobody does.  Maybe one person specs that way for the most part, but then someone else takes a single utility control skill because that's the amount needed to bail that other guy out of trouble.  Maybe someone takes a warhorn that they only swap to in order to give the party swiftness.  Maybe they take a mace/shield that they only switch to if that other guy dies.  Maybe a warrior takes a shield to one fight because shield stance is important, but maybe someone else specs for control the next fight because it really needs an aoe cripple that they have.

    You have so many options.  I think it's going to help with replayability a lot, such as taking the 5 thieves into a dungeon just to see what crazy stuff you have to do differently now that you don't have a balanced group to rely on.

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  • Arathir86Arathir86 CanberraPosts: 442Member Uncommon

    The whole point of the combat in GW2 is to -AVOID- damage, not take it in the face then heal through it.

    Your survivability will depend on how you play, not on your 'spec'.

    Every class gets a heal ability, some can even get two at a time, but these healing spells arent designed to be relied upon and if you try to heal traditionally with them you'll find you will run out of energy very fast and leave you very vulnerable.

    The idea is that skill will determine your effectiveness in combat, Dodge is there to help you avoid damage, and the healing spells are there as a minor forgiving ability if you messed up.

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  • VeldaraVeldara glendale, CAPosts: 29Member

    Originally posted by Kreedz

    The whole point of the combat in GW2 is to -AVOID- damage, not take it in the face then heal through it.

    Your survivability will depend on how you play, not on your 'spec'.

    Every class gets a heal ability, some can even get two at a time, but these healing spells arent designed to be relied upon and if you try to heal traditionally with them you'll find you will run out of energy very fast and leave you very vulnerable.

    The idea is that skill will determine your effectiveness in combat, Dodge is there to help you avoid damage, and the healing spells are there as a minor forgiving ability if you messed up.

    This ^

     

    For those that have only played only MMOs with the old EQ style gameplay this game is much much more different.  Don't think of GW2 as an MMO like in the past and see it more of an AMMO (Action MMO).  This game has dodging, your actions don't force you to stay still and cast, it's fast paced and the action is intense.  

  • ZeroxinZeroxin LondonPosts: 2,521Member Uncommon

    Offtopic;

    Zecktorin looks like Zeroxin if you're glancing through the pages. Thou must changeth thy name so as to not confuse other glancers within this forum that you are me and I am you.

     

    ON topic;

    The Beauty of GW2 is that, like GW1, the rock-paper-scissors is all in the skills rather than the role or the class.

    This is not a game.

  • DannyGloverDannyGlover Portland, ORPosts: 1,277Member

    Actually, the Trinity System is the exception to the rule. Id say 99% of all multiplayer games that Ive played did not use it. Trinity is a forced group mechanic that allows for a different type of specialized group play. Trinity or not doesn't matter. There are bad examples of both types of systems in many games. But Im pretty confident that Anet knows what they are doing so it should be fun to get our hands on it.

    I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member

    Originally posted by DannyGlover

    Actually, the Trinity System is the exception to the rule. Id say 99% of all multiplayer games that Ive played did not use it. Trinity is a forced group mechanic that allows for a different type of specialized group play. Trinity or not doesn't matter. There are bad examples of both types of systems in many games. But Im pretty confident that Anet knows what they are doing so it should be fun to get our hands on it.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/getbonkd/videos

    oh they definitely DO know what they are doing. I love how each and every class can be dps, or support. I love how as an engineer i can run around throwing grenades setting mine traps that explode in unison and throw potions that can AOE heal. It's going to be awesome!

  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member

    Originally posted by Requiamer

     






    Originally posted by Zecktorin

    After studying I do see the beauty in GW2.... looks pretty good, but I just dunno if I can go without a tank,dps,and heals... I enjoy that structure the most in alot of my MMOs. I just don't think it will work for me, but I will give it a try. :)




     

    They are a lot of mmo that don't have dedicated healer or tank. IF you can't really grasp how it can work just think about all the player vs player type of computer games; like fps or rts or whatever rpg coop games around. You really don't need dps/healer/tank trilogy to make combat and group combat interesting, its clearly not needed at all. Its just a way to do it, that's all. You can always try those non trinity mmo like Uo for example.

     

    What i don't understand is how some people cannot even visualize non trinity combat. I mean not a single coop computer games work with some kind of trilogy. Is it like a kind of religion i'm not aware of or something? I don't say that to offend you, but really i'm not sure if i'm serious or not here, it's just weird at this point how many people have asked the same question.

    A very large majority of multiplayer games never ever had trinity. How can it be weird to some people is beyond me.

    Yea THIS!

     

    You never see certain structures of the trinity in solo games, PvP games, FPS games and so on.  Its not hard IMO to visualize not having a tank for an example to soak damage when each player can easily takes turn.  Or not having a healer since its up to each individual to look out for their own being, its sort of like a glorified PUG setting.

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  • Enok4TwunniEnok4Twunni Joshua, TXPosts: 207Member

    Originally posted by Bunks

    The whole trinity idea was so foreign to me only just three years ago. After being exposed to it, my initial thought was how contrived and artificial it all was. It actually required the dev to "create" the tactic to work with an artificial thing called agro. Anotehr word for idiotic AI opponent.

    I've alwasy wanted a game that used combined arms, since it is the real way to wage war. Other than the few games I've played over the years (Operation Flashpoint, Armed Assault ect) where this was standard practice to plan out an attack using *gasp* tactics. GW2 is the first MMO I've seen that is actually pushing the concept hard. Im sure there were others, but this was the first I have been exposed to in this genre.  Amen to that!

    Only reason I'm quoting this is because the original Operation Flashpoint was amazing and I miss those kind of tactics in games. Now in reference to this thread, I don't doubt that a lot of players will continue to play the holy trinity way in GW 2, but you're not forced to in this game. I know technically you're not always forced to in other games, but the fact that an Elementalist could survive aggro from a boss is pretty impressive given that in most other games you'd get one shot. I will probably play Guardian and play a tank style, not because I'm forced to, but rather because I'd like to. Can we get ANet to bring back the original Operation Flashpoint ideas and have a team of devs with common sense give us a real tactical shooter? Am I asking too much to want people with common sense to revive one of the greatest shooters ever? Bohemia couldn't nor could Codemasters. Can't wait for GW 2.

  • ChelmoChelmo Fremont, CAPosts: 17Member

    As others have said there's no dedicated healing, all self healing with AoE ground heals that CAN be done, but don't expect them to keep you alive, they're more like a buffer. Also, there are NO TAUNTS in the game, you cannot go up to a mob or group of mobs and get them to stick only to you, they WILL change targets based on many different variables and it is up to everyone to control them. The key is to NOT TAKE DAMAGE at all, you want to avoid damage, not mitigate it.

  • IPolygonIPolygon ViennaPosts: 707Member Uncommon

    The best multiplayer games I've played (BF3, D2, GW 1, ...) don't have a trinity. I want to stay on my own two feet and don't want to depend on others to make up for my mistakes. That's team dependency, I wan't teamwork and that can only be achieved when you can actually work together - not side by side.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,978Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by IPolygon

    The best multiplayer games I've played (BF3, D2, GW 1, ...) don't have a trinity. I want to stay on my own two feet and don't want to depend on others to make up for my mistakes. That's team dependency, I wan't teamwork and that can only be achieved when you can actually work together - not side by side.

    I think GW2 will be more dependent on teamwork than regular trinity games. In trinity combat you have a specific role and as long as you do that right as well as the others the team will win.

    In games like GW2 you will have to keep watch on the other players as well as your own and be ready to help out at any moment. Sounds more fun to me however, but you ust be able to adept fast there.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,978Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Zecktorin

    After studying I do see the beauty in GW2.... looks pretty good, but I just dunno if I can go without a tank,dps,and heals... I enjoy that structure the most in alot of my MMOs. I just don't think it will work for me, but I will give it a try. :)

    It is something you get used to after a short while.

    The trinity was the first idea of a MMO combat system but that does not mean it is the only or even the best.

    You might still not like it of course but trying it wont hurt, I think you might be surprised if you just play it 2 weeks or so until you get into it. A new combat system is always hard in the beginning. :)

  • rdashrdash fdfPosts: 121Member

    Originally posted by Zecktorin

    After studying I do see the beauty in GW2.... looks pretty good, but I just dunno if I can go without a tank,dps,and heals... I enjoy that structure the most in alot of my MMOs. I just don't think it will work for me, but I will give it a try. :)

    Question is, what exactly do you enjoy in trinity system? Because GW2 takes some parts of it, and rejects another.

  • PilnkplonkPilnkplonk zagrebPosts: 1,532Member

    Originally posted by Zecktorin

    After studying I do see the beauty in GW2.... looks pretty good, but I just dunno if I can go without a tank,dps,and heals... I enjoy that structure the most in alot of my MMOs. I just don't think it will work for me, but I will give it a try. :)

    Maybe someone said this before, but ANet didn't say we're dispensing with trinity... They said they are removing the "Holy Trinity" from the geme.

    In essence, this means that you can pick almost any role with any class. A "squishy" elementalist can play a "tank" if he wants to and a warrior can play a healer, if he sets up his character that way.

    I'm oversimplifying on purpose btw. Their trinity is not healer, tank, dps but support, control and damage which are similar but not the same. The point is that your role is not set in stone at the moment of character creation but that you can adapt as your wish during the game... so no more LF healer.

    Now you'll ask, "well what's the point of classes then?" The answer is STYLE. If you like playing speedy martial artist tricksters you can play a thief. If you like a direct spell caster, you have elementalist. If you're into pets there is the Ranger.... You are not forced to play a class whose mechanics you do not like just so you can fulfill a role you want to play.

  • BunksBunks New Port Richey, FLPosts: 960Member

    Here's a question that's embarrasing to ask, did GW1 have a trinity system? I didn't play it enough with groups to ever see it in practice.

  • Zeus.CMZeus.CM ZagrebPosts: 1,788Member

    Originally posted by Bunks

    Here's a question that's embarrasing to ask, did GW1 have a trinity system? I didn't play it enough with groups to ever see it in practice.

    Sort of. There were tanks, healers and dps, but only in special team builds for some hard areas. Mostly in general PvE you get hybrid dps, crowd cotrol and healer all in one (Discord necros), maybe one dedicated crowd control (mesmer), and everything else is dps/suppport. So gw1 was never a typical holy trinity game. Also in pvp you mostly get dps and healers (no tanks, except some tanky dps like dervish).

    In PvE tanks couldnt hold aggro, because mobs always attack the weakest character (with the lowest armor rating), they often change targets. That's why party tend to pull mobs with bow, or if you use tank: You let tank go aggro, so that mobs burn all their strongest aoe abilities on tank (speacially if mobs have fire elementalist or smiting monk), and then everyone attack.

    Third option are assassin tanks (terra), usually in UW, that go solo and kill mobs either with mesmer, monk or ele skills.

    Also tanks are used in situations where party is required to defend an area which is attacked by several waves of enemies. In that case tank holds one wave while the rest of the party kills the other wave.

    So, as you can see in gw1 holy trinity is used only in special situations.

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member

    Originally posted by stragen001

    Originally posted by Serelisk

    Originally posted by stragen001

    If it works it will be awesome, but it sounds like a balancing nightmare.

    If they can really make an elementalist as effective a tank as a guardian that would be impressive and really would bring a whole new dynamic, but Im not convinced...

    Mesmer = Control/Support/Damage

    Engineer = Control/Support/Damage

    Thief = Control/Support/Damage

    Guardian = Control/Support/Damage

    Necro = Control/Support/Damage

    Ranger = Control/Support/Damage

    Warrior = Control/Support/Damage

    Elementalist = Control/Support/Damage

    If they can get people away from playing those obvious roles it will be really interesting

     

     

    Fixed. image

     

     

    OK, Im not disputing that each class can do control/support/damage, but will they be as effective?

    I really suspect a Mesmer will be better at CC than a Thief, and a Warrior will be a better tank than an Elementalist etc because their skills are geared towards it, so if thats the case then people will tend to go with those roles. 

    IF they can balance it all perfectly then good on them, but its gonna be tough

    Well THERE'S your problem! You're still thinking like control, support and dps are separate roles. In GW2, they're not. They're all aspects of combat, and everyone has them blended together in a mushy little pile of goo. Skills you have that cause damage, for example, likely also control the enemy some and/or support your allies with a little healing buff. Look at mesmers and chaos storm for example. Throw that puppy up on some bad guys... they're all taking damage from a variety of conditions while allies in the area are getting some buffs at the same time. The ranger next to you decides to shot some form of crippling shot through your chaos storm to bad guys behind it... now those bad guys are not only being damaged and controlled by the rangers shot, but conditions from the mesmers chaos storm are also being spread to them for added damage. The ranger may then toss out something akin to a healing spring, giving the mesmer a little buffage while he turns and sends some phantasms off towards a different group approaching from another angle.

     

    Stop thinking of damage, control and support as three separate roles. Unlike tank/healer/dps, they're not. They're simply different aspects of combat performed by each individual. You can't separate them from each other. They overlap by design. No one will be able to do only one aspect of combat alone and be effective at it. You can't build yourself as a tank, period. No one can heal you with targeted heals to allow you to survive being beat on consistently. You can't build yourself as a healer... same thing, you can't target anyone and bathe them in a series of death-defying uber-heals. You can't even be pure dps... you're always your own best healer, and more likely than not you'll have skills that not only damage but cause other effects; buffing allies and controlling the enemies ability to deliver damage to you.

     

    Let go of the trinity. It no longer exists. Understand that you can break combat into three aspects, but they're intertwined, not fully seperate.

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  • korent1991korent1991 CakovecPosts: 1,390Member

    Originally posted by stragen001

    If it works it will be awesome, but it sounds like a balancing nightmare.

    If they can really make an elementalist as effective a tank as a guardian that would be impressive and really would bring a whole new dynamic, but Im not convinced...

    Mesmer = cc/dps

    Engineer = dps

    Thief = dps

    Guardian = tank

    Necro = dps/minion master

    Ranger = ranged dps

    Warrior = tank

    Elementalist = dps

    If they can get people away from playing those obvious roles it will be really interesting

     

     

    Every class will have it's own advantages for every role... Mesmer isn't the only one with CC abilities (they all have them)... Engineer isn't capable of doing DPS only, same goes for thief... Guardian isn't only tank (same goes for warrior).. They can do ALOT of AOE dmg. I also know that warrior with hammer is CC nightmare (he's CC capable like any other class). Elementalist isn't only DPS... Ranger can do close combat DPS since it depends on weapons you choose...

    You mister should really check up more on the game before stating this... Since your weapons define what kind of spells you'll have and you alone choose few spells yourself there's really million of options to fit any class in any role.

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  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,978Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by thedarkess

    Sort of. There were tanks, healers and dps, but only in special team builds for some hard areas. Mostly in general PvE you get hybrid dps, crowd cotrol and healer all in one (Discord necros), maybe one dedicated crowd control (mesmer), and everything else is dps/suppport. So gw1 was never a typical holy trinity game. Also in pvp you mostly get dps and healers (no tanks, except some tanky dps like dervish).

    In PvE tanks couldnt hold aggro, because mobs always attack the weakest character (with the lowest armor rating), they often change targets. That's why party tend to pull mobs with bow, or if you use tank: You let tank go aggro, so that mobs burn all their strongest aoe abilities on tank (speacially if mobs have fire elementalist or smiting monk), and then everyone attack.

    Third option are assassin tanks (terra), usually in UW, that go solo and kill mobs either with mesmer, monk or ele skills.

    Also tanks are used in situations where party is required to defend an area which is attacked by several waves of enemies. In that case tank holds one wave while the rest of the party kills the other wave.

    So, as you can see in gw1 holy trinity is used only in special situations.

    Yeah, I wouldn't really call it tanking at all in GW1, the melle guys were just tryimg to stand between the mobs and the healer and magic users, and if something starting to beat on the healer they rescued her.

    I think the words "Strategical combat" is better than tanking.

    The interesting thing in GW2 is that dedicated healers will go the same way (I do remember when we couldn't get a real healer in GW1 for some missions and my necro worked as healer, actually went surprisingly well as long as we had fresh corpses all the time.

  • korent1991korent1991 CakovecPosts: 1,390Member

    Originally posted by Loke666

    Originally posted by thedarkess

    Sort of. There were tanks, healers and dps, but only in special team builds for some hard areas. Mostly in general PvE you get hybrid dps, crowd cotrol and healer all in one (Discord necros), maybe one dedicated crowd control (mesmer), and everything else is dps/suppport. So gw1 was never a typical holy trinity game. Also in pvp you mostly get dps and healers (no tanks, except some tanky dps like dervish).

    In PvE tanks couldnt hold aggro, because mobs always attack the weakest character (with the lowest armor rating), they often change targets. That's why party tend to pull mobs with bow, or if you use tank: You let tank go aggro, so that mobs burn all their strongest aoe abilities on tank (speacially if mobs have fire elementalist or smiting monk), and then everyone attack.

    Third option are assassin tanks (terra), usually in UW, that go solo and kill mobs either with mesmer, monk or ele skills.

    Also tanks are used in situations where party is required to defend an area which is attacked by several waves of enemies. In that case tank holds one wave while the rest of the party kills the other wave.

    So, as you can see in gw1 holy trinity is used only in special situations.

    Yeah, I wouldn't really call it tanking at all in GW1, the melle guys were just tryimg to stand between the mobs and the healer and magic users, and if something starting to beat on the healer they rescued her.

    I think the words "Strategical combat" is better than tanking.

    The interesting thing in GW2 is that dedicated healers will go the same way (I do remember when we couldn't get a real healer in GW1 for some missions and my necro worked as healer, actually went surprisingly well as long as we had fresh corpses all the time.

    Or using my elementalist as a tank with earth builds :D Worked excellent as long as we had enuogh dps.

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