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Does anyone actually hear themselves on this forum?

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  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    An important logical distinction:



    • All grind is a timesink.


    • Not all timesinks are grinds.


    Remember when we never used the term grind, back before MMORPGs?  Yeah, that's because the games didn't ask you to repetitively do the same thing until it felt like a grind.


     


    Gameplay which takes time is fine.


    Gameplay which requires excessive time or repetition isn't fine -- it's a grind.

    Um, no, I remember grind in FF and DW and all sorts of single player games. I do not remember grind in non rpgs though :)

  • blognorgblognorg Roseburg, ORPosts: 643Member

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    MMORPG's are defined by their grind, it can range from very little (GW1) to extreme (old school Lineage 2 or EQ1)

    Modern MMORPG's employ several mechanics to disguise it including quest based level progression and in some cases story driven content (AOC, SWTOR) which we'll probably see more of.

    The reason it feels like a grind at all is because it delays players from participating in end game content instead of actually being the game content.

    EVE did not feel like a grind no matter what I did, it really doesn't have one in the traditional sense.  (I consider earning ISK playing the game, not grinding)

    We need some new game designs I think.

     

    I totally agree. I've been bitching about the endgame division for some time. The genre needs an overhaul. If TOR is any indicator of a trend, then I'm going be very sad.

  • blognorgblognorg Roseburg, ORPosts: 643Member

    Originally posted by Cuathon

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    An important logical distinction:



    • All grind is a timesink.


    • Not all timesinks are grinds.


    Remember when we never used the term grind, back before MMORPGs?  Yeah, that's because the games didn't ask you to repetitively do the same thing until it felt like a grind.


     


    Gameplay which takes time is fine.


    Gameplay which requires excessive time or repetition isn't fine -- it's a grind.

    Um, no, I remember grind in FF and DW and all sorts of single player games. I do not remember grind in non rpgs though :)

    I'm not sure Iike the term grind being applied to games anymore. It's getting too ambiguous, with everyone seemly defining it differently. If someone defines it as repitition, then everything can be classified as a grind to some extend. Look at any old-school Nintendo game; they were hard as balls. I would have to repeat levels dozens of times to get through it. Can't that be considered a grind, as well? If it's defined as an activiy that's not enjoyable, then that's completely subjective. The grind argument needs to die. It's getting repetitious:-P

  • CeridithCeridith Toronto, ONPosts: 2,980Member

    On one side you have gamers who want MMOs to be something they can play casually. They want to be able to jump in and out of the game without much commitment, and participate on an 'end game' level with minimal work.

    On the other side you have players who treat MMOs like a hobby. Something they don't mind putting in some effort to advance in. In fact, it's that effort that makes reaching the end goals much more enjoyable. If things are too quick or easy, they quickly get bored.

    The only people who sound ridiculous in this discussion, are the ones who say that those who disagree with them are wrong. Pick a game that better aligns with your playstyle. If you want to play casually, play a casual friendly game.

  • SonictempalSonictempal tampa, FLPosts: 55Member

    Originally posted by Centhan

    Originally posted by Dekarx12

    lol yeh Hear*

     

    And i think your getting at people wingeing about grinds? welcome to MMo forums and alot of those are asain type MMO's but alot of people know that so they dont get much attention?

     

    its all about the TOR hate/Love arguments on this forum and thats getting old fast...

     

    Next time OP with a more of a Conversation argumement instead of a fustration opener cause I'm still not 100% wtf your on about

    I'm sorry, just can't let this one go...

    How do you correct someone about their spelling, then go on to make grammatical errors yourself.

    And what the hell is wingeing ?!?!  Still trying to figure that one out.

    However, don't feel badly, YOU'RE not the only one in this thread (or countless others) who have done it.

     

    lol

  • melton80melton80 staunton, ILPosts: 54Member

     I'm not a grammar nazi so i won't criticise you for using here instead of hear, but you can't HEAR yourself on this forum unless you make a video, you can READ your own posts, but hearing it totally different =P

  • GolelornGolelorn Hiding From Social Media Peeping Toms, ALPosts: 1,099Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Gamer54321

    One could argue that ones real life job is a GRIND, but few if any find that topic particulary interesting to complain about I am sure.

    I'm guessing you've never had a job...

     

    Unless you mean people don't complain about it here, which make sense being a gaming forum and all.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,681Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by blognorg

    I'm not sure Iike the term grind being applied to games anymore. It's getting too ambiguous, with everyone seemly defining it differently. If someone defines it as repitition, then everything can be classified as a grind to some extend. Look at any old-school Nintendo game; they were hard as balls. I would have to repeat levels dozens of times to get through it. Can't that be considered a grind, as well? If it's defined as an activiy that's not enjoyable, then that's completely subjective. The grind argument needs to die. It's getting repetitious:-P

    Grind means excessive repetition.

    I can't remember ever hearing it used in a way where that definition failed.

    Grind is subjective, because what's "excessive" is subjective.

    Also, repeating a level due to failing a skill-check (NES games) is much different from the game requiring you to repetitively repeat that level.  If you had to repeat Super Mario Bros World 1-1 fifteen times before you could reach World 1-2, that would be closer to representing the way MMORPGs (especially early ones) require repetition and thereby feel grindy.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • TeiloTeilo LiverpoolPosts: 284Member

    Originally posted by toddze

    Originally posted by Dibdabs


    Originally posted by Centhan


    Originally posted by Dekarx12

    lol yeh Hear*

     

    And i think your getting at people wingeing about grinds? welcome to MMo forums and alot of those are asain type MMO's but alot of people know that so they dont get much attention?

     

    its all about the TOR hate/Love arguments on this forum and thats getting old fast...

     

    Next time OP with a more of a Conversation argumement instead of a fustration opener cause I'm still not 100% wtf your on about

    I'm sorry, just can't let this one go...

    How do you correct someone about their spelling, then go on to make grammatical errors yourself.

    And what the hell is wingeing ?!?!  Still trying to figure that one out.

    However, don't feel badly, YOU'RE not the only one in this thread (or countless others) who have done it.

    I've highlighted a few more of his howlers in yellow.  A particularly funny part is his phrase "with a more of a", which is in dire need of some grammatical adjustment as well.  Using a conjunction to start a sentence is frowned on, but there's no actual rule about it, so I will let that stand uncorrected.  It's a shame forum access can't be restricted to those who can actually spell and write coherently.



    Its a forum not an english class. Quite being grammer Nazi's. Not in every case but in some cases, English may not be someones first language.

    Given that "wingeing" (or "whinging") is a bit of english dialect, I doubt that. ;)

  • toddzetoddze no where, OKPosts: 2,155Member

    Originally posted by Swollen_Beef

    Originally posted by toddze


     



    Its a forum not an english class. Quit being grammer Nazi's. Not in every case but in some cases, English may not be someones first language.

    That old gag...

    Correct someone's horrid spelling and grammatical errors and you are a spelling Nazi and then the "not my first language" card gets thrown around. 

    I guess spelling mistakes on a Resume are okay too. It JUST a resume. 

     

    There are spelling mistakes, and there are spelling mistakes that make you look like an uneducated 'tard, Nazis or no. 

    No, its a forum for discussing games its not an english class, this is a far cry from a resume, no one is applying for a job. The only reason to correct grammer and spelling errors is to belittle and downgrade the poster to make you guys feel better.

     

    Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
    Now Playing: N/A
    Worst MMO: FFXIV
    Favorite MMO: FFXI

  • blognorgblognorg Roseburg, ORPosts: 643Member

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by blognorg

    I'm not sure Iike the term grind being applied to games anymore. It's getting too ambiguous, with everyone seemly defining it differently. If someone defines it as repitition, then everything can be classified as a grind to some extend. Look at any old-school Nintendo game; they were hard as balls. I would have to repeat levels dozens of times to get through it. Can't that be considered a grind, as well? If it's defined as an activiy that's not enjoyable, then that's completely subjective. The grind argument needs to die. It's getting repetitious:-P

    Grind means excessive repetition.

    I can't remember ever hearing it used in a way where that definition failed.

    Grind is subjective, because what's "excessive" is subjective.

    Also, repeating a level due to failing a skill-check (NES games) is much different from the game requiring you to repetitively repeat that level.  If you had to repeat Super Mario Bros World 1-1 fifteen times before you could reach World 1-2, that would be closer to representing the way MMORPGs (especially early ones) require repetition and thereby feel grindy.

    If part of the definition is subjective, then it, by proxy, is subjective. I feel that my analogy still holds. In MMOs, you're repeating a process to make some form of progress, which is the same as any other game. Instead of quantifiable progress, you get better at going through the motions, so to speak. It's the same, regardless. An activity that is being repeated until a certain amount of progress is made. 

  • SaorlanSaorlan LeedsPosts: 289Member

    This thread is a perfect example of utter pointlessness.

    Someone posted a half formed idea that made no sense and showed the appalling state of US or British education, then people actually responded by posting more mindless drivel.

    I am adding further pointlessness with my post.

    image

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by toddze
    No, its a forum for discussing games its not an english class, this is a far cry from a resume, no one is applying for a job. The only reason to correct grammer and spelling errors is to belittle and downgrade the poster to make you guys feel better.

    This is a forum about games, but a forum none-the-less. It is about communicating one's ideas to others. If readers have to work too hard to make sense of another's postings, they give up and what that poster tried to communicate is lost. Remember, this is not a text chat. A poster has all the time in the world to write (type) their thoughts before hitting that "post" button.

    I try to read through posts with bad grammar, misspellings, typos and/or dropped words. Sometimes, though, it is just too hard and not worth my time to decipher. Like it or not, it does reflect upon one's perceived intelligence.

    *HINT*
    Use the "preview" button before posting. Read through the post you just wrote before hitting that "post" button.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • DibdabsDibdabs FelvershamPosts: 2,604Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by toddze

    Originally posted by Dibdabs


    Originally posted by Centhan


    Originally posted by Dekarx12

    lol yeh Hear*

     

    And i think your getting at people wingeing about grinds? welcome to MMo forums and alot of those are asain type MMO's but alot of people know that so they dont get much attention?

     

    its all about the TOR hate/Love arguments on this forum and thats getting old fast...

     

    Next time OP with a more of a Conversation argumement instead of a fustration opener cause I'm still not 100% wtf your on about

    I'm sorry, just can't let this one go...

    How do you correct someone about their spelling, then go on to make grammatical errors yourself.

    And what the hell is wingeing ?!?!  Still trying to figure that one out.

    However, don't feel badly, YOU'RE not the only one in this thread (or countless others) who have done it.

    I've highlighted a few more of his howlers in yellow.  A particularly funny part is his phrase "with a more of a", which is in dire need of some grammatical adjustment as well.  Using a conjunction to start a sentence is frowned on, but there's no actual rule about it, so I will let that stand uncorrected.  It's a shame forum access can't be restricted to those who can actually spell and write coherently.



    Its a forum not an english class. Quite being grammer Nazi's. Not in every case but in some cases, English may not be someones first language.

    I'm actually correcting someone who laughed at someone else's spelling when they wrote "Lol yeh Hear*".  To those who think spelling and grammar aren't important in a purely written medium, try being that sloppy in a job application or college thesis and see where it gets you.  Then you can give me fries with my order and/or wash my car windows for loose change at the next set of traffic lights

    Life is a competition, and if some people haven't realised that they're already losing.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,966Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by toddze

    Originally posted by Dibdabs


    Originally posted by Centhan


    Originally posted by Dekarx12

    lol yeh Hear*

     

    And i think your getting at people wingeing about grinds? welcome to MMo forums and alot of those are asain type MMO's but alot of people know that so they dont get much attention?

     

    its all about the TOR hate/Love arguments on this forum and thats getting old fast...

     

    Next time OP with a more of a Conversation argumement instead of a fustration opener cause I'm still not 100% wtf your on about

    I'm sorry, just can't let this one go...

    How do you correct someone about their spelling, then go on to make grammatical errors yourself.

    And what the hell is wingeing ?!?!  Still trying to figure that one out.

    However, don't feel badly, YOU'RE not the only one in this thread (or countless others) who have done it.

    I've highlighted a few more of his howlers in yellow.  A particularly funny part is his phrase "with a more of a", which is in dire need of some grammatical adjustment as well.  Using a conjunction to start a sentence is frowned on, but there's no actual rule about it, so I will let that stand uncorrected.  It's a shame forum access can't be restricted to those who can actually spell and write coherently.



    Its a forum not an english class. Quite being grammer Nazi's. Not in every case but in some cases, English may not be someones first language.

    Excellent, made me laugh.  Actually I cut anyone who has English as a 2nd language a break, but the OP is from Arkansas, so I expect a little better. (not perfection)

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • JimmacJimmac TXPosts: 1,667Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Dewm

    90% of this forums:

    Grind = time sink

    .....YOUR PLAYING A GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    *goes and bangs head against wall*

    /thread

    I don't understand why you let it bother you so much. Can you tell me why?

    Why do you let it get to you what other people say? Why can't you just let it go and move on? Why can't you only reply to threads that don't bother you?

    I think you need to put this into perspective. This is a forum on the internet, a very niche forum at that...one for mmorpgers. Very few actual mmorpgers read this site. Even less read the forums. Even less post on the forums. Even less actually complain as much as you think they complain...

    You can ignore them and just move on. Don't let it bother you. To me, it's about 100 times more insane that it bothers you than that the complaining happens in the first place. I just don't understand why you want to police what other people say, or why you want to police a message board that isn't your own.

  • neonwireneonwire OxfordPosts: 1,787Member

    Originally posted by toddze

    Originally posted by Swollen_Beef


    Originally posted by toddze


     



    Its a forum not an english class. Quit being grammer Nazi's. Not in every case but in some cases, English may not be someones first language.

    That old gag...

    Correct someone's horrid spelling and grammatical errors and you are a spelling Nazi and then the "not my first language" card gets thrown around. 

    I guess spelling mistakes on a Resume are okay too. It JUST a resume. 

     

    There are spelling mistakes, and there are spelling mistakes that make you look like an uneducated 'tard, Nazis or no. 

    No, its a forum for discussing games its not an english class, this is a far cry from a resume, no one is applying for a job. The only reason to correct grammer and spelling errors is to belittle and downgrade the poster to make you guys feel better.

     

    No. By correcting peoples spelling mistakes, "spelling nazis" (aka people with a better education) are helping them to improve themselves. The people who do not know how to spell things properly should be grateful for the free education instead of "wingeing" about it. They are gaining, not losing. If they feel belittled by this then they should just take it on the chin, accept the constructive criticism and learn to spell properly. Then no-one will ever feel the need to correct them. If I say something wrong and then get corrected, I dont get angry about it as that doesnt make any sense. I accept that I was wrong, experience a little bit of embrassment and learn from it (......until I forget the next time).

    Fixing broken things is good and should not be criticised. Leaving broken things broken is really fucking stupid.

  • toddzetoddze no where, OKPosts: 2,155Member

    Originally posted by neonwire

    Originally posted by toddze


    Originally posted by Swollen_Beef


    Originally posted by toddze


     



    Its a forum not an english class. Quit being grammer Nazi's. Not in every case but in some cases, English may not be someones first language.

    That old gag...

    Correct someone's horrid spelling and grammatical errors and you are a spelling Nazi and then the "not my first language" card gets thrown around. 

    I guess spelling mistakes on a Resume are okay too. It JUST a resume. 

     

    There are spelling mistakes, and there are spelling mistakes that make you look like an uneducated 'tard, Nazis or no. 

    No, its a forum for discussing games its not an english class, this is a far cry from a resume, no one is applying for a job. The only reason to correct grammer and spelling errors is to belittle and downgrade the poster to make you guys feel better.

     

    No. By correcting peoples spelling mistakes, "spelling nazis" (aka people with a better education) are helping them to improve themselves. The people who do not know how to spell things properly should be grateful for the free education instead of "wingeing" about it. They are gaining, not losing. If they feel belittled by this then they should just take it on the chin, accept the constructive criticism and learn to spell properly. Then no-one will ever feel the need to correct them. If I say something wrong and then get corrected, I dont get angry about it as that doesnt make any sense. I accept that I was wrong, experience a little bit of embrassment and learn from it (......until I forget the next time).

    Fixing broken things is good and should not be criticised. Leaving broken things broken is really fucking stupid.

    if you think your helping their errors your delusional and thats a sad sad excuse for participating in it. Grammer naziism is a form of personal attack. people dont like the message so you attack the message itself, in an attempt to prove the poster un-educated therefore making the message a moot point.

    This isnt a job application, this isnt a resume, this isnt a thesis, this is a game form for casual conversation. No one is ever perfect on their grammer or spelling.

    Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
    Now Playing: N/A
    Worst MMO: FFXIV
    Favorite MMO: FFXI

  • ZecktorinZecktorin Bloomingdale, MIPosts: 231Member

    Hes talking about how people complain when they have to grind because its a time sink..... when they are playing a game thats suppose to be a time sink.

     

    lol he does make a very good point.

  • Gamer54321Gamer54321 OsloPosts: 180Member

    Hello, every activity then can be called a time sink.

    WOW (10 days and quit) | EVE (1000 days and quit) | WOT(playing on and off) | LOTR (5 days and quit)

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member

    Originally posted by Gamer54321

    Hello, every activity then can be called a time sink.

    Agreed. Every activity can be called time-sink or grind by one and fun by other person.

    Just a matter of perspective.

  • DewmDewm Soldotna, AKPosts: 1,341Member

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Originally posted by toddze


    Originally posted by Dibdabs


    Originally posted by Centhan


    Originally posted by Dekarx12

    lol yeh Hear*

     

    And i think your getting at people wingeing about grinds? welcome to MMo forums and alot of those are asain type MMO's but alot of people know that so they dont get much attention?

     

    its all about the TOR hate/Love arguments on this forum and thats getting old fast...

     

    Next time OP with a more of a Conversation argumement instead of a fustration opener cause I'm still not 100% wtf your on about

    I'm sorry, just can't let this one go...

    How do you correct someone about their spelling, then go on to make grammatical errors yourself.

    And what the hell is wingeing ?!?!  Still trying to figure that one out.

    However, don't feel badly, YOU'RE not the only one in this thread (or countless others) who have done it.

    I've highlighted a few more of his howlers in yellow.  A particularly funny part is his phrase "with a more of a", which is in dire need of some grammatical adjustment as well.  Using a conjunction to start a sentence is frowned on, but there's no actual rule about it, so I will let that stand uncorrected.  It's a shame forum access can't be restricted to those who can actually spell and write coherently.



    Its a forum not an english class. Quite being grammer Nazi's. Not in every case but in some cases, English may not be someones first language.

    Excellent, made me laugh.  Actually I cut anyone who has English as a 2nd language a break, but the OP is from Arkansas, so I expect a little better. (not perfection)

     

     

    First off...Yes I did make a mistake, anyone who actually thinks that "hear and here" are the same is stupid...

     

    THAT being said...while you are cutting me a "break" remember that "AK" does NOT stand for Arkansas.....I live in Alaska...

    Please check out my channel. I do gaming reviews, gaming related reviews & lets plays. Thanks!

  • toddzetoddze no where, OKPosts: 2,155Member

    Some of these guys need a new forum avatar. It should look like this:

    Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
    Now Playing: N/A
    Worst MMO: FFXIV
    Favorite MMO: FFXI

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    The irony in the OP is just...delicious.

    If you intended this post to be ironic OP then...well played sir, well played.

    If you didn't then...image

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • thepoptartthepoptart Long Beach, CAPosts: 61Member

    Originally posted by Zecktorin

    Hes talking about how people complain when they have to grind because its a time sink..... when they are playing a game thats suppose to be a time sink.

     

    lol he does make a very good point.

    And it's amazing how everyone had a hard time understanding that.

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