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I miss olfschool PvE

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  • dllddlld GöteborgPosts: 541Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Dewm

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     




    Originally posted by Dewm






    Originally posted by dlld

    There's really nothing stopping people from doing such, it's clear "questing" is a superior way of levelingin terms of enjoyment for the vast vast majority of people.







    how is it clear?

    I'm not trying to argue....i'm just wondering? is there some awesome study that I havn't heard of that proves this?







    10,000,000+ WoW subscribers voting with their pocket books?

     

    This old adage that because WoW has 10million players makes it MORE fun then any other game is just stupid. First off I like WoW...its a decent game for what it is. I am not a "wow-hater" BUT having said that....

    Just because McDonalds outsellfs a 5star resterant doesn't make it better food.

    Just because more people play WOW then play Risk, doesn't make Risk not as much fun..

     

    Thats like saying, more people have seen the grandcanyon, then have been to the moon.....does that mean the grandcanyon is a better view? no...deffinitly not.

     

    Oh please, don't bring up the mcdonalds argument it's such an extremely flawed comparison. However the "10 mill subs != bestest game ever" is true just don't bring up mcdonalds in the same sentance.. or anything else really, a boardgame comparison isn't much better either. Instead point out actual reasons why it has so much subs in comparison to other mmos like the poster below you.

  • SepulcherSepulcher Phoenix, AZPosts: 216Member

    Originally posted by Dewm

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     




    Originally posted by Dewm






    Originally posted by dlld

    There's really nothing stopping people from doing such, it's clear "questing" is a superior way of levelingin terms of enjoyment for the vast vast majority of people.







    how is it clear?

    I'm not trying to argue....i'm just wondering? is there some awesome study that I havn't heard of that proves this?







    10,000,000+ WoW subscribers voting with their pocket books?

     

    This old adage that because WoW has 10million players makes it MORE fun then any other game is just stupid. First off I like WoW...its a decent game for what it is. I am not a "wow-hater" BUT having said that....

    Just because McDonalds outsellfs a 5star resterant doesn't make it better food.

    Just because more people play WOW then play Risk, doesn't make Risk not as much fun..

     

    Thats like saying, more people have seen the grandcanyon, then have been to the moon.....does that mean the grandcanyon is a better view? no...deffinitly not.

     

    That comparisson does not work.  So please stop using it.

    The day a McDonalds cheeseburger costs the same price as a steak give me a call.

    You are comparing two things with unequal value.

    Now compare the local restaraunt that has been around for 7 years with the new restaraunt that just opened up.  You only have enough money to go out to eat once a month.  On the one hand you have a restaraunt that has been around for a while, has evolved its menu to fit the demands of the customers and has reliable service and is clean.  Now on the other hand you have a new restaraunt with its new cuisine, but maybe the menu is missing some of those favorites you were hoping for, maybe the waiter is new and gets some of the orders mixed up, and maybe the place isn't as friendly as the old place.

    10 million players have chosen to enjoy the menu that has evolved to fit their tastes, with reliable service, and a well polished place to enjoy it.  They may be eating the same food, but they are enoying it,  have many friends who eat there too that they can sit and have dinner with, and they are comfortable knowing that tomorrow the restaraunt will still be there and still serve their favorites.

    Stop acting like everyone who plays wow is some bottom feeding moron who is being zombified into playing a shitty game because they are hopelessly addicted.

    Risk may suck to many people so it being fun is not definitive.

    Someone may find the view of the Grand Canyon with its many colors, winding waters, and wildlife more appealing than a grey rock floating in a black void with white dots in the sky.

    It is all subjective and your opinion isn't the one in which the world runs itself.

  • yewsefyewsef KuwaitPosts: 335Member

    Originally posted by Castillle

    Originally posted by Creslin321



     Heheh :).

    I try not to explicitly mention it in my posts that are obviously talking about its mechanics because if I do, a bunch of people will say I'm an over-hyped fanboi lol.

    I find it hard to believe that theres a single mmo player who isnt even slightly hyped for GW2 tbh...  Hai faiv for GW2!  ("")(^_^)

     

    I am not slightly hyped by it and I think you're going to be slightly disappointed when it's released.

     

  • PlasmicredxPlasmicredx Strogg CityPosts: 629Member
    Originally posted by kishe

    Good ol' times, I'd just go to zone around my level range, shout "XXX looking for XP group" get invite and start killing stuff while chatting away with rest of the group and having a laugh, It was far less grindy and tedious than running to town, picking up 12 quests, running across the map to do the 12 quests, running back to town to return the quests, running around town to find new 12 quests...etc etc.
    Only social aspect left on MMOs are raids and even so, game after game reduces the amount of people you can bring to raid and reduces the amount of people you see in same zone with you...if same development continues, soon all MMOs will remind us of "Progressquest" where you just pressed a button and watched the game play itself for you (http://progressquest.com/)
     
     
     

    TotalBiscuit on Youtube talking about Serious Sam 3

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW7_qstvmI0

    My favorite part is when he says "Do we still need old FPS games to come out? I SAY YES!"

    This is relevant to the discussion because old school MMORPGs are subject to time passing just as much as old school FPS. We just need old school developers to make old school games and then we need to buy those games to support them and get as much advertising for them as possible.

    Really wish there was a Dark Age of Camelot 2 but there may never be one. I'll just have to wait for some kind of old school throwback to come along and support the brownies out of it.

    Big gaming companies who make games like Call of Duty just don't make games like Serious Sam, Tribes, id software shooters, or Duke Nukem. They focus on competitive esport gaming. Even id software does that now with Quake 3/QuakeLIVE and failed then dropped out of that contest to make RAGE to lick their wounds. It takes small indie companies to make awesome pointless games just for fun because that revolves around ideas that may not make money whereas competitive esport gaming does.

    The difference is a long time ago the only games were made by small indie companies who risked sticking their necks out in gaming industry fields that were new like the first internet based games. There is plenty of information you can find on startup companies like that. Meridian 59 has a game history page for example that says they were one of the first internet games programmed by a formal computer science major. Imagine that.

    Now that we have big gaming software companies it's their job to crush their competition (that's just business) so obviously the small indie developers can't compete with the shear amount of software those machines can pump out so they get crushed. That's just life apparently.

    No other way around it. Just have to support the indies. Course it's really hard to when the big companies offer such well polished content. One good example is I supported Trine 1 when the developers said they would make a coop option in the game if enough people liked it. So I bought and supported Trine 1 by gifting the game to other people through Steam and told people about it. There is now a Trine 2 with 3 player coop (and it's awesome and I love it). Feels good to make a difference with my wallet!

  • DerWotanDerWotan NorrathPosts: 1,012Member

    Originally posted by kishe

    Good ol' times, I'd just go to zone around my level range, shout "XXX looking for XP group" get invite and start killing stuff while chatting away with rest of the group and having a laugh, It was far less grindy and tedious than running to town, picking up 12 quests, running across the map to do the 12 quests, running back to town to return the quests, running around town to find new 12 quests...etc etc.

    Only social aspect left on MMOs are raids and even so, game after game reduces the amount of people you can bring to raid and reduces the amount of people you see in same zone with you...if same development continues, soon all MMOs will remind us of "Progressquest" where you just pressed a button and watched the game play itself for you (http://progressquest.com/)

     

    Well said and so many times agreed I'm simple not interested I having my own little instance crap, just let me /ooc "looking for PoK AA 250 EXP - NM " thing and have fun while playing and chatting away with like minded people.

    Quests are the stupidest, most boring and braindead crap combined with instances I've ever experienced in MMORPGs and yet more and more games are having this poor excuse of game design.

    Really hoping ArcheAge will feel this void for us.

    We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!

    "Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
    "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Dewm

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Originally posted by Dewm

    Originally posted by dlld
    There's really nothing stopping people from doing such, it's clear "questing" is a superior way of levelingin terms of enjoyment for the vast vast majority of people.
    how is it clear?
    I'm not trying to argue....i'm just wondering? is there some awesome study that I havn't heard of that proves this?


    10,000,000+ WoW subscribers voting with their pocket books?
     


    This old adage that because WoW has 10million players makes it MORE fun then any other game is just stupid. First off I like WoW...its a decent game for what it is. I am not a "wow-hater" BUT having said that....
    Just because McDonalds outsellfs a 5star resterant doesn't make it better food.
    Just because more people play WOW then play Risk, doesn't make Risk not as much fun..
     
    Thats like saying, more people have seen the grandcanyon, then have been to the moon.....does that mean the grandcanyon is a better view? no...deffinitly not.
     


    Bad examples for comparison. CAN you get to the moon? I certainly do not have the capability. A 5 star restaurant gets that rating from a few critics, not the populace. Have you ever voted to give a 5 star rating? Does your 5 star rated restaurant have plates with a tiny spot of food with lots of pretty squigglies on it for a main course charging $100 for "the experience"?

    Now, back to WoW. I don't think it is the greatest game ever. However, 10,000,000 people find it fun enough to subscribe. Check the underlined portion in the quote. This is not a statement about how great a game is, it is a point about what people find "fun". I tend to believe people vote with their pocketbooks. If they are having fun, they play a game. If not, they quit. Kind of a simple way to gauge if people are having fun playing a game, don't you think?

    Remember, it is not a question about whether or not *you* (or I or anyone else personally) think it is fun. It is about what other gamers (en masse and in general) find fun.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • NeoCountNeoCount TAPosts: 10Member

    "Looking for Heckler team, PST".. sounds familiar to anyone ? image

  • moosecatlolmoosecatlol Boring, TXPosts: 1,171Member Uncommon

    The 30-40 Champions online PvE was pretty decent, getting up there was rather painful though. I still find that game incredibly broken as all hell, but the monster island theme, and the end of the world theme were actually pretty decent.

     

    The iconic sense of mmo questing, really never made any sense to me unfortunately. It just seemed rather pointless to have to run back to the appropriate npc after every quest. I mean really, how is dumbledore going to know if I killed 10 whatevers? Collection quests do make sense, but then that leaves me to ask the question, since when did Heros become an errand service?

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by fenistil



    9,900,000 of them never played not-quest-based mmo. (hell most of them even don't propably know that there are mmorpg's existing or possible to do that don't copy WoW-pattern).

    Even though I partially agree where you come from.

    It's rare to find someone who doesn't feel the variety questing introduced isn't obviously superior to endlessly grinding mobs.

    Personally I tried a ton of early MMORPGs and the excessive grind and weak combat made me give up each one rapidly -- until a game came along with a varied grind and superior combat.

    Grind is excessive repetition.  Quests are reduced repetition, by varying activities. Pretty straightforward.

    Well I never said I don't agree. Sure that quests are more interesting than just killing mobs over and over BUT quests also do have preety big disadvantages. It atomize players and artifically forces sologication because players are at diffrent part of quest / quest-lines / zones/ etc you get the idea.

     

    Thing is to make gameplay more interesting than just killing respawning mobs and allow players to group up in open world and not punishing them for it (nowadays if I group up with someone who is not on the same quest either I have to repeat quests I already done with him or he has to).

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,734Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by fenistil

    Well I never said I don't agree. Sure that quests are more interesting than just killing mobs over and over BUT quests also do have preety big disadvantages. It atomize players and artifically forces sologication because players are at diffrent part of quest / quest-lines / zones/ etc you get the idea.

    Thing is to make gameplay more interesting than just killing respawning mobs and allow players to group up in open world and not punishing them for it (nowadays if I group up with someone who is not on the same quest either I have to repeat quests I already done with him or he has to).

    It only does that in some games though.

    As an example, the fastest you can level in WOW is by grouping (and you can spend 40-99% of your time grouping, depending on your class role.)

    And ironically running dungeons 99% of the time in WOW sometimes doesn't feel a whole lot different than the old Endless Monster Grind (which is actually a strike against it, even though it's my favorite way to level.)

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • JayFiveAliveJayFiveAlive Arvada, COPosts: 534Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Sepulcher

    Originally posted by Dewm


    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     




    Originally posted by Dewm






    Originally posted by dlld

    There's really nothing stopping people from doing such, it's clear "questing" is a superior way of levelingin terms of enjoyment for the vast vast majority of people.







    how is it clear?

    I'm not trying to argue....i'm just wondering? is there some awesome study that I havn't heard of that proves this?







    10,000,000+ WoW subscribers voting with their pocket books?

     

    This old adage that because WoW has 10million players makes it MORE fun then any other game is just stupid. First off I like WoW...its a decent game for what it is. I am not a "wow-hater" BUT having said that....

    Just because McDonalds outsellfs a 5star resterant doesn't make it better food.

    Just because more people play WOW then play Risk, doesn't make Risk not as much fun..

     

    Thats like saying, more people have seen the grandcanyon, then have been to the moon.....does that mean the grandcanyon is a better view? no...deffinitly not.

     

    That comparisson does not work.  So please stop using it.

    The day a McDonalds cheeseburger costs the same price as a steak give me a call.

    You are comparing two things with unequal value.

    Now compare the local restaraunt that has been around for 7 years with the new restaraunt that just opened up.  You only have enough money to go out to eat once a month.  On the one hand you have a restaraunt that has been around for a while, has evolved its menu to fit the demands of the customers and has reliable service and is clean.  Now on the other hand you have a new restaraunt with its new cuisine, but maybe the menu is missing some of those favorites you were hoping for, maybe the waiter is new and gets some of the orders mixed up, and maybe the place isn't as friendly as the old place.

    10 million players have chosen to enjoy the menu that has evolved to fit their tastes, with reliable service, and a well polished place to enjoy it.  They may be eating the same food, but they are enoying it,  have many friends who eat there too that they can sit and have dinner with, and they are comfortable knowing that tomorrow the restaraunt will still be there and still serve their favorites.

    Stop acting like everyone who plays wow is some bottom feeding moron who is being zombified into playing a shitty game because they are hopelessly addicted.

    Risk may suck to many people so it being fun is not definitive.

    Someone may find the view of the Grand Canyon with its many colors, winding waters, and wildlife more appealing than a grey rock floating in a black void with white dots in the sky.

    It is all subjective and your opinion isn't the one in which the world runs itself.

    I must say, that was a spot-on analogy. Never heard it put that way, but it makes a lot of sense lol.

  • JayFiveAliveJayFiveAlive Arvada, COPosts: 534Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by yewsef

    Originally posted by Castillle


    Originally posted by Creslin321



     Heheh :).

    I try not to explicitly mention it in my posts that are obviously talking about its mechanics because if I do, a bunch of people will say I'm an over-hyped fanboi lol.

    I find it hard to believe that theres a single mmo player who isnt even slightly hyped for GW2 tbh...  Hai faiv for GW2!  ("")(^_^)

     

    I am not slightly hyped by it and I think you're going to be slightly disappointed when it's released.

     

    I am also not even slightly hyped for GW2. I think it will be a disappointment to a lot of folks. Too many companies promise the grass is greener in their game, but it usually turns out to be the same yellow-ish nasty grass that we are tired of messing with.

  • DewmDewm Soldotna, AKPosts: 1,341Member

    Originally posted by Sepulcher

    Originally posted by Dewm


    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     




    Originally posted by Dewm






    Originally posted by dlld

    There's really nothing stopping people from doing such, it's clear "questing" is a superior way of levelingin terms of enjoyment for the vast vast majority of people.







    how is it clear?

    I'm not trying to argue....i'm just wondering? is there some awesome study that I havn't heard of that proves this?







    10,000,000+ WoW subscribers voting with their pocket books?

     

    This old adage that because WoW has 10million players makes it MORE fun then any other game is just stupid. First off I like WoW...its a decent game for what it is. I am not a "wow-hater" BUT having said that....

    Just because McDonalds outsellfs a 5star resterant doesn't make it better food.

    Just because more people play WOW then play Risk, doesn't make Risk not as much fun..

     

    Thats like saying, more people have seen the grandcanyon, then have been to the moon.....does that mean the grandcanyon is a better view? no...deffinitly not.

     

    That comparisson does not work.  So please stop using it.

    The day a McDonalds cheeseburger costs the same price as a steak give me a call.

    You are comparing two things with unequal value.

    Now compare the local restaraunt that has been around for 7 years with the new restaraunt that just opened up.  You only have enough money to go out to eat once a month.  On the one hand you have a restaraunt that has been around for a while, has evolved its menu to fit the demands of the customers and has reliable service and is clean.  Now on the other hand you have a new restaraunt with its new cuisine, but maybe the menu is missing some of those favorites you were hoping for, maybe the waiter is new and gets some of the orders mixed up, and maybe the place isn't as friendly as the old place.

    10 million players have chosen to enjoy the menu that has evolved to fit their tastes, with reliable service, and a well polished place to enjoy it.  They may be eating the same food, but they are enoying it,  have many friends who eat there too that they can sit and have dinner with, and they are comfortable knowing that tomorrow the restaraunt will still be there and still serve their favorites.

    Stop acting like everyone who plays wow is some bottom feeding moron who is being zombified into playing a shitty game because they are hopelessly addicted.

    Risk may suck to many people so it being fun is not definitive.

    Someone may find the view of the Grand Canyon with its many colors, winding waters, and wildlife more appealing than a grey rock floating in a black void with white dots in the sky.

    It is all subjective and your opinion isn't the one in which the world runs itself.

     

     

     

    UHmmm look what I wrote in "red"................or maybe you did and you can't read? 

     

    Now in the McDonalds addage I don't see why it doesn't work. Just take the money in the food anolgy and turn it into the game anolgy it equals time.

     

    So WoW (you hop  on for 30 minutes and play) way less time then say FFXI where you can to play for like 3hrs (short for hours)

    and Mcdonalds you buy a burger for 2 bucks....whereas you go to a nice place you'll pay 30.00 for that steak.)

     

    Its honestly the same thing, And saying that more people play WoW = more fun...its very narrow minded of you. (i'm calling you thick in the head)

     

    I added the pictures so maybe this time you can follow along.

     

    kthnxby

     

     

    Please check out my channel. I do gaming reviews, gaming related reviews & lets plays. Thanks!

  • SkrankenSkranken BergenPosts: 98Member

    Originally posted by ActionMMORPG

    I've come to the conclusion that what many people call "grinding" is what I call "playing the game".

    Same here.

    If thats the case I love games where you need to "grind" your way to the top like Anarchy Online and Everquest.

  • tollboothtollbooth grants pass, ORPosts: 298Member

    i despise quest driven xp so much.  it feels like the most tedious grind imagineable.  I never feel myself get stronger, and so little of it actually matters in any way. 

    Someone just remake ffxi already so i can start having fun in a mmo again :(

  • DewmDewm Soldotna, AKPosts: 1,341Member

    Originally posted by Skranken

    Originally posted by ActionMMORPG

    I've come to the conclusion that what many people call "grinding" is what I call "playing the game".

    Same here.

    If thats the case I love games where you need to "grind" your way to the top like Anarchy Online and Everquest.

    QFT

    Please check out my channel. I do gaming reviews, gaming related reviews & lets plays. Thanks!

  • ClassicstarClassicstar rotjeknorPosts: 2,690Member

    What i miss most is the community back then i know you had also assholes but still it was alot and i mean ALOT better then these days.

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  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,734Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Dewm

    <bunch of trollage>

    kthnxby 

    The McD's argument is flawed because MMORPGs charge the same price.

    If a bunch of restaurants charged 14.99 a month for unlimited access to their food, and customers overwhelmingly chose one restaurant over the others, that's definitely not the same as why people choose McDonalds (cheap food).

    McD's would be if players were overwhelmingly choosing some F2P MMORPG based on price alone (even knowing that it was a worse MMORPG.)

    In this analogy, the leading restaurant's success is based on streamlining the dining experience, by eliminating the various types of line-waiting that existed in other restaurants, in addition to higher quality food.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • Crunchy221Crunchy221 Trollsberg, ILPosts: 489Member

    I have to wonder.  Was it that the games were really all that diffrent in terms of grind?  I mean people do make a valid point...its all a form of grinding if you dont enjoy it right?

    Perhaps the problem is that mmorpgs have become a mad dash to endgame, making the journey a tedious obstical blocking people from being at endgame and raiding and doing the same battlegrounds over and over that they did at level 10 (lol).

    I think the biggest flaw in the wow arch-type is the mad dash enducing engame hype.  I dont recall ever rushing in the older mmorpgs.  Hell, i remember not even caring or noticing what level i was in anarchy online, but then that was perhaps a diffrent game all together.

    Regardless...my opinion...its the rush to endgame thats killed the game.  People just dont enjoy playing to progress and socialize.  Its now all business...level as fast as possible. 

    I recall recently seeing a pug group member type " did we have to kill these mobs?" when running a dungeon.  Its that mentality i cant stand...no we didnt but i did because it was fun.  That guy ended up leaving since we were wasting time by the way...left us all there before we finished since we were pulling mobs we could have run past.

    Theres got to be a way to brainwash these kids into enjoying the game simply by playing it, rather than achieving endgame as fast as possible then getting bored in a month and hopping to the next one (or re rolling and racing again..on top of endlessly running the same instances over and over again at endgame)....why is endgame so fun again..seems the most repetative part of themeparks...

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by kishe

    Good ol' times, I'd just go to zone around my level range, shout "XXX looking for XP group" get invite and start killing stuff while chatting away with rest of the group and having a laugh, It was far less grindy and tedious than running to town, picking up 12 quests, running across the map to do the 12 quests, running back to town to return the quests, running around town to find new 12 quests...etc etc.

    Only social aspect left on MMOs are raids and even so, game after game reduces the amount of people you can bring to raid and reduces the amount of people you see in same zone with you...if same development continues, soon all MMOs will remind us of "Progressquest" where you just pressed a button and watched the game play itself for you (http://progressquest.com/)

     

     

     

     

    BAD old times. I am glad that will never return. It is mind numbingly boring to camp & kill the SAME mobs again and again till the next level.

    Questing .. at least you get to see different scenary. Plus, you can always run instance dungeons to level in WOW, which you cannot do in the "bad old days" of EQ.

  • DewmDewm Soldotna, AKPosts: 1,341Member

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by Dewm

    kthnxby 

    The McD's argument is flawed because MMORPGs charge the same price.

    If a bunch of restaurants charged 14.99 a month for unlimited access to their food, and customers overwhelmingly chose one restaurant over the others, that's definitely not the same as why people choose McDonalds (cheap food).

    McD's would be if players were overwhelmingly choosing some F2P MMORPG based on price alone (even knowing that it was a worse MMORPG.)

    In this analogy, the leading restaurant's success is based on streamlining the dining experience, by eliminating the various types of line-waiting that existed in other restaurants, in addition to higher quality food.

     

    You obviously didnt' read my post. if you take the "McD's" arguement and make the TIME the "currency" then diffrent MMO's charge diffrent prices.

    Example 34: FFXI takes 20 minutes to get to location, 10 minutes to find group, 3 hours to level...total time: 3.5hrs

    WoW takes, 2 minutes to get to location, 10 minutes to find group, 10 minutes to level...total time: 22min

     

    Time = money

    Wow (22min) is cheaper (cost less) then FFXI(3.5hrs)

     

    More people play wow because it takes less time and because their friends play....not because its "more fun"

    Please check out my channel. I do gaming reviews, gaming related reviews & lets plays. Thanks!

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,734Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Dewm

     You obviously didnt' read my post. if you take the "McD's" arguement and make the TIME the "currency" then diffrent MMO's charge diffrent prices.

    Example 34: FFXI takes 20 minutes to get to location, 10 minutes to find group, 3 hours to level...total time: 3.5hrs

    WoW takes, 2 minutes to get to location, 10 minutes to find group, 10 minutes to level...total time: 22min

     Time = money

    Wow (22min) is cheaper (cost less) then FFXI(3.5hrs)

     More people play wow because it takes less time and because their friends play....not because its "more fun"

    Putting aside the fact that your argument is completely nonsensical, WOW charged me 6 years of time because it was fun and rapidly got me from fun thing A to fun thing B, whereas FFX charged me 30 minutes of time because the UI/controls were terrible and it felt grindy even at the start.  So I guess the actual price being paid is quite a bit higher in WOW.

    In reality, all people care about is return on investment -- invest x time, get y fun.   If the ratio is terrible, players aren't going to stick around long because there are more efficient time investments to be had.

    In short, they're only going to "pay" (in time) for the games they perceive as worthwhile.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • StoneRosesStoneRoses Seattle, WAPosts: 1,066Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by fenistil

    Originally posted by 77lolmac77


    Originally posted by kishe

    Good ol' times, I'd just go to zone around my level range, shout "XXX looking for XP group" get invite and start killing stuff while chatting away with rest of the group and having a laugh, It was far less grindy and tedious than running to town, picking up 12 quests, running across the map to do the 12 quests, running back to town to return the quests, running around town to find new 12 quests...etc etc.

    Only social aspect left on MMOs are raids and even so, game after game reduces the amount of people you can bring to raid and reduces the amount of people you see in same zone with you...if same development continues, soon all MMOs will remind us of "Progressquest" where you just pressed a button and watched the game play itself for you (http://progressquest.com/)

     

     

     

    Pretty sure in green would be described as grinding?

    There is no definition of grinding.

     

    To one person doing dozens of kill / bring x quests would be grind and to other it would not.

    To one person killing mobs for xp would be grind and to other it would not.

    To one person doing same dungeon(s) over and over to get enough tokens would be a grind and to other it would not.

    To one person crafting would be a grind and to other it would not.

    etc,

     

    You get the point?

    TIME SINK!

    image

  • DewmDewm Soldotna, AKPosts: 1,341Member

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by Dewm

     You obviously didnt' read my post. if you take the "McD's" arguement and make the TIME the "currency" then diffrent MMO's charge diffrent prices.

    Example 34: FFXI takes 20 minutes to get to location, 10 minutes to find group, 3 hours to level...total time: 3.5hrs

    WoW takes, 2 minutes to get to location, 10 minutes to find group, 10 minutes to level...total time: 22min

     Time = money

    Wow (22min) is cheaper (cost less) then FFXI(3.5hrs)

     More people play wow because it takes less time and because their friends play....not because its "more fun"

    Putting aside the fact that your argument is completely nonsensical, WOW charged me 6 years of time because it was fun and rapidly got me from fun thing A to fun thing B, whereas FFX charged me 30 minutes of time because the UI/controls were terrible and it felt grindy even at the start.  So I guess the actual price being paid is quite a bit higher in WOW.

    In reality, all people care about is return on investment -- invest x time, get y fun.   If the ratio is terrible, players aren't going to stick around long because there are more efficient time investments to be had.

    In short, they're only going to "pay" (in time) for the games they perceive as worthwhile.

     

     

    Wanna talk nonsensical argument.... you start posting your own expeirence in a game...so now that we are totaly throwing facts out the window.

     

    I played FFXI for 2.5 years...AND LOVED IT. best MMO I"VE ever played... PERIOD!

     

    WoW...I played for 2 months...burned through 90% of the content and quit...

     

    and your "in reality, all peopel care about is return on investment.." so what you are saying is every single person out there that says "Oh I didn't like old games because it took me 3 hours to party, and I don't have for that." is full of it?

    They "aren't going to stick around long because there are more efficient time investments"?

     

     

    Pretty much what you are saying to me is...

    WoW + 10milliion players = fun

    McDonalds models doesn't work because time investment has nothing to do with a game popularity....

     

    So your saying a player base has nothing to do with time investment... So IF someone made a game that took 4 hours to find a party, but it was "as much fun as WoW" it would still have 10million subs?

     

    You leaves so many flaws in your argument I don't even know were to start...

    Please check out my channel. I do gaming reviews, gaming related reviews & lets plays. Thanks!

  • JabasJabas Caldas da RainhaPosts: 1,207Member Common

    Originally posted by kishe

    Good ol' times, I'd just go to zone around my level range, shout "XXX looking for XP group" get invite and start killing stuff while chatting away with rest of the group and having a laugh, It was far less grindy and tedious than running to town, picking up 12 quests, running across the map to do the 12 quests, running back to town to return the quests, running around town to find new 12 quests...etc etc.

    Only social aspect left on MMOs are raids and even so, game after game reduces the amount of people you can bring to raid and reduces the amount of people you see in same zone with you...if same development continues, soon all MMOs will remind us of "Progressquest" where you just pressed a button and watched the game play itself for you (http://progressquest.com/)

     

     

     

    I some way i agree with you.

    I bealive games dont need to be only "grinding" mobs or only "grinding" quests.

    Someone allready mentioned that quest should never be in chain mode, i agree 100%, grouping is much more dificult this way. Chain quests means solo adventure.

    I like games where have zones for group "grinding" and some zones for solo "grinding" (ofc group zones gives much more xp), both in open world, no instance plz.

    I like group quests where involves killing some harder mobs (and can be daylies).

     

    After a few years in a quest grinding games, i start feeling the need to back to L2, because is where i found real comunity sense, its where i feel a living virtual world and every day i have to deal with diferent situations involving other players. It could be better?oh yes it could, but theres nothing better yet in the market for me.

    But mmorpg market involves billions and billions, so we will keep see alot of new devs trying entering on this market, and i have hopes  one day some new devs will make a great game, imo ofc, because allready have low hopes for the existence "BIG" companys around.

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