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Couple things about TOR:
1) There are more than "a couple" of heroic quests per world and there are also instanced dungeons at every level stage... not to mention PvP. This game has more heroic quests than Rift or WoW, yet I didn't hear people saying those games weren't MMORPGs...
2) Innovation in TOR takes the form of questing being more like an RPG experience than anything that has come before it. In addition, there is implementation of a decent mini game, awesome companions with their own stories, excellent crafting system, a good job with handling instanced PvP (world pvp on the other hand...) and all things that, while not ground breaking, were implemented in an innovative way that deserves a good, not great, ranking. 8 may be too high, but not by much; if you're talking about innovation in themeparks, this is about as innovative a title as you'll get in this genre.
As to bugs...
There were as many bugs, if not more, in every major MMO release I've played. If you got to level 26, how have you experienced these economy-breaking bugs? Or were you just reading about them on the forums? The economy isn't broken because the game hasn't been out long enough to have one to break. Bioware acted fast enough to prevent any long term damage. EVERY MMO has bugs, this game plays well despite the bugs.
My first character, a shadow, would also have given 9.5 as polish, but my guardian, I think I'd give it a little lower, maybe a 9 or 8.5 Overall though this is a very polished game.
Originally posted by BillMurphy Honest question to keep discussion going: if the score wasn't there, and we were just talking about Mike's words, would this whole argument even be taking place? It's not ultimately the numbers that matter, a B grade, 4-stars, 8/10, 87/100, three and a half thumbs up... it's the content. And even there you may have things to contend. But the actual words are what matter is my angle.
I don't take "official" reviews here seriously, and here's an example of why based on this review:
First he claims that the story somehow miraculously oozes innovation and then turns around and says, "On the flip side, BioWare doesn’t do much else that’s innovative with Star Wars: The Old Republic."
What?! I don't even know what to say about that other than it's ridiculous and why some people here claim you all can be bought and paid for. Story IS NOT and will NEVER BE some crazy innovation. Geez...
I haven't played the game so I won't try and comment on the rest, others have and will cover those issues. But I've spent plenty of time researching this game and I knew just from my research that this game wasn't going to be innovative for the industry, and trying to justify a 8/10 score is asinine IMO.
The line between credibility and bias is very thin, perhaps an in-house review would be something to look into.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Originally posted by Zekiah Originally posted by BillMurphy Honest question to keep discussion going: if the score wasn't there, and we were just talking about Mike's words, would this whole argument even be taking place? It's not ultimately the numbers that matter, a B grade, 4-stars, 8/10, 87/100, three and a half thumbs up... it's the content. And even there you may have things to contend. But the actual words are what matter is my angle.
the way the story is implemented is what is innovative.
Originally posted by mav1234 Originally posted by Zekiah Originally posted by BillMurphy Honest question to keep discussion going: if the score wasn't there, and we were just talking about Mike's words, would this whole argument even be taking place? It's not ultimately the numbers that matter, a B grade, 4-stars, 8/10, 87/100, three and a half thumbs up... it's the content. And even there you may have things to contend. But the actual words are what matter is my angle.
There is nothing innovative about story-driven content regardless of how and when you implement the video into the game. Period.
Yes only a slight problem.
This review skips some of the key things of a 2010/2011 based MMORPG Title.
1. Lack OF Customization on character.
2. Lack OF Open World PVP
3. The Unbalance in PVP
4. Also the fact that really the Developers OF SWTOR really did not make anything new at all in a MMORPG Title it all feels like World OF Warcraft, and the only thing they did was take things like a story and give options like Mass Effect series that is all really and that was something good but not really what makes the whole game play experience enjoyable.
Originally posted by maskedweasel Originally posted by Deewe Originally posted by Distopia Originally posted by Torgrim Originally posted by Deewe Originally posted by MikeB By the way, to any and all of you who disagree with our score. Why not write your own review here?
Now this is how you write a none biased review, focusing on all aspect of the current game not as the OPs review who based it only StarWars,Bioware and Voiceovers and rate it.
Looks just as subjective to me, there's no such thing as an unbiased opinion or experience, and that's what both of these reviews are based on.
An unbiased review focuses on the inner workings of a game and that's it, there are very few of these coming from gaming sites or mags or fans, almost all of these reviews are based on experience and opinion.
My experience has been nothing like what Deewe brought up in his "polish" section. So based on my experience, my review would read completely different. See how that works?
So I guess you can move your UI frames around, have AA and no visual bugs (yes I know you can enable it client side), you also have the high textures, and you never notice the camera angles in cutscene. Then you never PvP or at least not on Illum and don't want to choose the warfront you want to queue for. Also you never used group chat nor guild chat that much during the last fews days and never see the "player does not exists" message when adding someone to your friendlist. Also you never experienced lost emails, like the ones sent to your deleted and re-created toon. Finally glad to see you also aren't like many others stuck with your character unable to gain any more light side or dark side points, nor you companion affection is stuck or you have affectiom popup in cutscene and your affection score does not change at all!
I'm not saying the game is bad. It's just lacking and certainly not polished at all. Or would I say very uneven.
How many of those have YOU encountered? Because I didn't encounter ANY of them.
I have encountered bugs... This one time I died in Huttball and respawned in the respawn area...then DIED AGAIN.. while in the respawn area.. and it didn't let me respawn anymore so I sat there until the game kicked me out due to staying in the spawn point.
I've had a bug where the boss of a trooper mission spawned in the ceiling and could shoot me anywhere on the map while I couldn't target or shoot him at all.
I've had a bug where, after sitting through a 30 minute queue, I received a CTD upon character log-in and had to come back to a 45 minute queue!
I've had some issues, but didn't have ANY of those that you spoke about.. not even the guild chat problem, though others in my guild mentioned having it.
The point is, why base polish off of problems OTHER people are having, why not base it off of the problems you personally experience. I have a friend who gets the blackscreen error, but she also has an underpowered computer (that doesn't meet minimum requirements) with an integrated graphics card... :shrug:
If you replied yes to any of the above you are either delusional or making a fool of yourself on these forums. And yes it''s all about polishing.
Now I never said I did not experience the above bugs. For the record I did experience all the bugs I mentioned in my OP, but the black screen of death and, unless I have some network streaming in the background, I'm keeping having the disconnection error 9000/2005 roundly every 10 minutes or so,
BTW nor my computer nor my internet connection are underpowered nor is my OS is badly set up. As a former IT admin rest assured I know how to setup and maintain a perfectly fit OS. And as you might wonder all my hardware is not only high end quality but not even OC: Intel, Asus, Mushkin, Seasonic, you name it.
Don't think I'm mad at BioWare, they are indeed guilty of delivering the game in this, less than stellar, polish status but as a MMO vet I'm used to pay for beta testing MMO during the first +/- 6 months.
At least there are still companies that do deliver polished MMO. Sadly with TOR BioWare isn't one of them. I just hope they'll learn from their errors so their Mass Effect MMO will be polished.
As ending in a polished MMO the world feels alive, with moving NPC/mobs, critters, environmental sounds, day/night cycles. for now TOR feels like a huge graveyard.
Originally posted by Deewe Originally posted by maskedweasel
I would hope you're not mad at BioWare, afterall you tested the game and if you're still playing, then it isn't their fault.
As for things like the UI or picking the warfront you want to play, yeah, again, issues prior to launch. Black screen or disconnect errors, are not issues I've ever experienced first hand, and I don't have the best PC in the world.
The game is very polished, and a lot of people hold that opinion. No game is without problems. At the end of the day this has been one of, if not the most polished MMO I've played on launch, and thats saying something - I've been around for a lot of releases, and a lot of tests.
Its not absurd to want a customizable UI, more character creation options and things of that nature, and I've been pretty vocal about all of that, but honestly the buck stops when people start thinking the game is somehow "unplayable" or "not polished" due to an incessant bias of issues where they may be a minority in experiencing. I can guarantee there are issues I've encountered that plenty probably haven't... but nothing has hindered my gameplay unlike some of the other most recent launches.
Originally posted by Renoaku Yes only a slight problem. This review skips some of the key things of a 2010/2011 based MMORPG Title. 1. Lack OF Customization on character. 2. Lack OF Open World PVP 3. The Unbalance in PVP 4. Also the fact that really the Developers OF SWTOR really did not make anything new at all in a MMORPG Title it all feels like World OF Warcraft, and the only thing they did was take things like a story and give options like Mass Effect series that is all really and that was something good but not really what makes the whole game play experience enjoyable.
Its nothing like Warcraft because it has those Mass effect style storylines . The quests are pretty standard fair for any mmo . You got the same sort of quests in games that preceeeded Warcraft so why not say its like Everquest ? WoW wasn't orginal it took ideas from games that came before it and game released since it . Each mmo offers a few new ideas but if you can think up something totally new and innovative that would keep people playing for months or years that is feasable and groundbreaking I would love to hear it ?
Otherwise accept that every mmo will be based around a similar basic set up that started with games like anarky online , everquest or darkage of camelot all of which came out years before warcraft .
Because it was most likly your first mmo it doesn't make it the first ever mmo and WoW itself was part of the evolution of the mmo genre just as ToR is .
I cant believe they reviewed it to a 8.7/10.
I beta'ed, gave it another chance on headstart before im hanging up my saber for good now after a week in final.
3/10 is my rating..
This is supposed to be an mmorpg site, and I dont even feel SWTOR falls under that category.. its not massive at least..
To be honest the review isn't that far off in the text, still when the numbers doesn't match it looks a bit silly.
Rrmove the numbers and let's see how the people will react.
Or for the fun ask players guess the rating based on Mike's text. Could be much surprizing
Fyi, IGN just gave it a 9.0
This review is consistant with what most reviewers think. Again, good job mmorpg.com
So far up to this point i have 95% of people complaining about the game.. Is their not anythiny people Like about the game?
Originally posted by booheads Fyi, IGN just gave it a 9.0 This review is consistant with what most reviewers think. Again, good job mmorpg.com
Boohead you have to be a boohead in order to think IGN giving it a 9/10 is good
Though fair score would be 7.5 for me but like this review it's an opinion.
There are facts though that really do make me question what people are rating honestly, it's a good current gen mmorpg.
What doesn't make sense is ability delays, and bad PVP, when it's faction based.
I'd say people should rveiew games on what it is a few months after release at least mmorpgs.
But eh well, it would be pretty cool for someone to say I love this game but right now it's a 7.5 however you know what that leads to.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
really anhyone who goes below a 5 is worse then people given it a 9. Sorry but its true. Sure the game has faults, limited character customization , a non customizable ui, That said it is a very smooth well polished game.
it deserves a 6 based on content and plish alone. Throw in that fact that the story aspects are top notch, thae pvp by the way for me is fun and i dont have ability delay in pvp yet so for some reason that hasnt affected me.
u dont have to like tor to give it a 6, prsonally i say its an 8, the ui and lack of body types to me bring the total score down and it does still have some quest killing bugs , So id say its an 8 but i love tor and have played it alot,
To say its a 3 is just ridiculous.
Originally posted by Skranken I cant believe they reviewed it to a 8.7/10. I beta'ed, gave it another chance on headstart before im hanging up my saber for good now after a week in final. 3/10 is my rating.. This is supposed to be an mmorpg site, and I dont even feel SWTOR falls under that category.. its not massive at least..
So essentially you played it at best maybe a week or two ? with at least two alts .
In WoW I can quest these days barely seeing a soul because they are all in instances . In ToR you cant move for people questing .
Weird isnt it so many people hate ToR in these forums yet it continues to have huge numbers of servers that are on heavy load .
The biggest problem I have with it is because of the storylines its too immersive . I cant multitask and listen to music or chat on the net because I get into whats going to happen next . The quests are pretty standard but I like the moral dilemas they place .
For the sher hell of it I'm playing a Jedi as evil as possible and its fun to see where that'll go .
Originally posted by OkhamsRazor So essentially you played it at best maybe a week or two ? with at least two alts . In WoW I can quest these days barely seeing a soul because they are all in instances . In ToR you cant move for people questing . Weird isnt it so many people hate ToR in these forums yet it continues to have huge numbers of servers that are on heavy load . The biggest problem I have with it is because of the storylines its too immersive . I cant multitask and listen to music or chat on the net because I get into whats going to happen next . The quests are pretty standard but I like the moral dilemas they place . For the sher hell of it I'm playing a Jedi as evil as possible and its fun to see where that'll go .
For starters, the argument "you only played it for X amount of time" no longer holds water. People have played the game, people have gotten to endgame in a matter of DAYS (yes DAYS not weeks). Two weeks is more than enough time to tell how good a game is, even an MMO. You shouldn't have to spend a month on an MMO to tell how good it is. That would be just sad.
Secondly, WoW is old as hell. It's almost a decade old, and still has a lot of players (they are just mostly lounging around cities nowadays, waiting on Ques / Raids / Dailies. I've seen city instances of TOR with less than 50 players in it (and yes, this was in instance 1, there were no others).
Also, you may want to look at the trend of the servers. They had a big start, for sure, but you may have noticed that the server pops are slowly starting to decline. The game hasn't even been out a month, not the greatest sign (though hopefully it will hit a plateau soon.)
I like playing the game, but I feel like the world is truly empty. You'd expect to see a whole lot more people when you're in queue for a server with 20 mins to log in to your character (This isnt the case anymore, but it still feels empty). I played very casually hoping my brothers would catch up and join me, but I dont understand how they cant when they're playing 3-4 more hours than I am. It's extremely easy to level up in this game. Whenever I went to a new planet, there's not more than 30 people there (Republic Fleet is the only exception). Some planet maps are pretty big like Taris, Hoth, Balmorra, etc. It makes the game feel like a single player game as some have stated.
I feel like its going the same route WAR has. They've created too many servers and the players are too spread out now. Lots of people are queueing up for the WZ's to level up and who can blame them? You get commendations to buy stuff, exp, money, and daily quest rewards. No one wants to go out and enjoy the planets out there. BW really need to get rid of the exp/money from the WZ's. That will force players to go out and enjoy the game for what it is.
Originally posted by Shivam For me SWTOR is 8.5, changes to UI and it is 9. So yeah i agree with what ever you wrote in the review. I am still waiting for IGN.com because that is my last stop for all reviewing needs.
IGN gives it a 9 -> http://uk.pc.ign.com/articles/121/1214622p2.html
Originally posted by maskedweasel
It was a good MMO too, why can't people just learn to deal with it. SO you don't agree with the score, so what? If those that like the game have to deal with a lot of misguided negativity, I think those with a negative or pessimistic outlook should take the positive views for what they are.
I'm starting to wonder where this genre is even headed now, every game that will ever launch from 2004 forward will always end up being ripped apart by a ton of nonsense due to nothing but disillusionment, and anyone with a favorable opinion is going to get chastised or "called out" as being a poor reviewer?
Newsflash, good reviews aren't only the ones that agree with your opinion, While Deewe has always made good points in regards to this game, he also pointed out primarily negative aspects in a way to counterbalance the original review. Shouldn't Deewe have been talking about what his personal experience was instead of whatever preceived issues were spoken of on forums about disconnect or blackscreen errors? Shouldn't he have noted any enjoyment at all that he had?
I enjoyed the MMORPG.com review, and later today, the IGN review - which has been the most comprehensive review I've seen, will be releasing their final score. There are a lot of great reviews out there that are more indicative of an average experience then posting a lot of "maybe you'll experience" issues that Deewe posted. Your opinion is formed by 1 person, YOU, and its unlikely every issue spoken about has been experienced by every single person.
Seriously, All people are saying, the pros and cons dont = the score. If more than one person agrees then its probably a well brought up point. What ur basicly saying is, if you dont agree, deal with it and stfu. Then why cant you let the haters hate and stop defending something ur trying so hard to defend.
double post my bad
Originally posted by Deewe Originally posted by Distopia
My point was my review would simply be different. I haven't had any crashing, black screens, etc..
UI rescaling/looks/ etc... have never been a concern of mine as long as they don't get in the way.
AA? On this rig? While world pvping? nope... Not to say my PC can't run great graphics, I just turn them down anyway, makes PVP so much easier, when you never really see slowdown.
I never PVP ? That's all I've done since I made my character or in any other MMO... I doubt I'll even get more companions on this toon as he's my PVP main, please don't presume that you know anything about what I do in a game, thanks....
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MikeB actually seems like a gent, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. He at least recognized that the game is more Warhammer than WoW.
He likes the game. Fair enough. I STRONGLY question a 8/10 innovation score for this game, however. Adding a bad version of BioWare's storytelling to Warhammer Online does not justify a 8/10.
I don't find the gameplay to be that solid.
Just consider how this game would play if they allowed you to build a rotation macro?
You could remove about half of the buttons from the hotbar.
There is too much crowd control in PvP. The sides are not balanced. The PvP skill cap is set too low... it's mostly about focus fire and whichever side starts dropping people first. The combat feedback is pretty weak. The safe assumption though, is that regardless of what class you are fighting, you are going to be rooted, snared, and interrupted constantly no matter what state your resolve bar is in.
Whoever balanced the PvP in this game should show the therapist on the chart where the nasty healers touched him. The innate PvP healing debuff means that without a tank to guard your healer, you are better off coming in with a DPS spec.
This game will go the way of Rifts before too long. Rifts was the better game though.
Originally posted by red_cruiser The innate PvP healing debuff means that without a tank to guard your healer, you are better off coming in with a DPS spec.
How is this a bad thing?
i loled at gameplay 9/10, 8/10 innovation and longevity 8/10.
a game should never reach 10/10 because that means the game is perfect and can't improve anymore, and this game can improve in every aspect imaginable. Played the game myself and i put the overall score at around 5/10-6/10 (my opinion). But well, i thought wow was boring too and wouldnt give it more than a 7-8/10. My reason for giving this a 5-6/10 is because I've played this game in over a dozen other skins in my past 10 years with mmorpgs. I admit this game has story and voice overs, but that is all i can see that makes it stand above any free to play mmorpg or mmorpg out before it.....ah oh yes, star wars, forgot people love star wars, so guess that is some sort of plus.
5-6/10 (my opinion) feel free to say im wrong and criticize me, but please do so after you have played other mmorpgs and can give a decent criticism.