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General: Who Fears Perma-Death?

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  • LordOfPitLordOfPit North Bay, ONPosts: 86Member

    Death in computer games started as a way to ensure the player would have to put another quarter into the machine and would have a lesser chance to see the end of a level than the player previously had.

    With computer games becoming popular on personal systems, games that allowed saving player progress became the norm for those games that had a story the player progressed through.

    In MMO's the concept of perma-death is loathed mostly because if a player is paying $15 a month for a subscription based MMO, reseting the players' progres for any reason what-so-ever can be the kiss of the death for that MMO as far as that particular player is concerned.

    The more story-based the MMO is and the more Lore and Background details the developer puts into the game, the bigger the chance perma-death has to become the kiss-of-death.

  • RagamokRagamok Penticton, BCPosts: 3Member

    Perma-death in a PvE game , like the original EQ for example, may add some spice to the game, as long as there was an assurance that dying because of disconnectiopn from the world did not count. I would likely enjoy it!!

    However, perma-death in a PvP game would be great pain, due to the fact that you can get ganked so often in situations that are just not your fault ( I hate PvP anyway mostly). In a game like that canstantly re-rolling because of participation in the massive senseless battles is just not worth playing!!

  • TalemireTalemire Clearwater, FLPosts: 756Member

    Originally posted by spinner_vis

    solution:

    don't make progression about character.

    make progression about soul.

    create account.

    create soul. pick some abilities.

    create character. choose from available abilities.

    play character. soul gains new abilties.

    character dies. permanently. soul remains.

    make new character...

    Not gonna lie, I like this idea, a lot. Sounds well thought out and has a lot of fun concepts behind it.

    ------------------------------
    MMORPGs are great to look forward to after a hard day of work, but heaven is the ultimate reward for those who live Christ-like.

    image
  • DunkareDunkare NottellingPosts: 33Member


    Originally posted by SBFord
    Would you play on an MMO with permadeath?
    nope. definitely not.
    the thought alone of losing everything i spent hours, days, weeks achieving, lost forever in the blink of an eye, makes me hate that game already. makes me hate the developers who even thought of such an abomination of a game feature. really im getting angry just writing this.
    its not that i fear losing something - i.e. pvp looting isnt so bad, its just a few items - its losing everything at once. this would make all the time and effort one put in a game truly and completely go to waste. and it doesnt sound like fun to 'play' in permanent fear of certain death.
    plus, theres enough 'perma-death' in real life already, i dont need that in my virtual happy land, thank you very much :P

    **edit**


    Originally posted by Talemire

    Originally posted by spinner_vis
    solution:

    don't make progression about character.

    make progression about soul.

    create account.

    create soul. pick some abilities.

    create character. choose from available abilities.

    play character. soul gains new abilties.

    character dies. permanently. soul remains.

    make new character...
    Not gonna lie, I like this idea, a lot. Sounds well thought out and has a lot of fun concepts behind it.


    indeed, this sounds like an intriguing concept - lose 'worldly' possesions but keep the progress of the character. i really like that! ;)
  • CasualGamerCasualGamer Toronto, ONPosts: 55Member

    For the most part your character dying in a video game has little consequence. In single player games, for example, it's basically a redo from last checkpoint except now you  have gleened into the future of your character and thus can avoid dying (hopefully) again. Which breaks the immersion, the sense of realism and discovery. I hate games that force you to die your way through sections until you finally figure out what you need to do to survive an encounter because in the end you kinda cheated by knowing something your character in the story doesn't know. I'd like to think if I played intelligently and not haphazardly I could get through new encounters without dieing as my character would. Thinking, adapting, strategizing. Of course not always possible but I think it's a goal worth attempting.

     

    Multiplayer...Well...I wished that there was a multiplayer game that focused more on the storyline and creative gameplay as oppose to keeping players glued to the game by having them constantly building/rebuilding what they have now or have lost through PVE or PVP, or merely catering to killboards and chest thumping. I wouldn't mind rerolling a new character after my previous one died if the gameplay was an unfolding adventure, a story I wanted to be a part of whether I was a simple tradesman or a ruler of a kingdom, penniless or a billionaire. Mind you a character's life has to have value or else players will just use them as cannon fodder to achieve some nefarious goal. But the value should be based upon playing in this great virtual world not having a X level character with X amount of stuff/loot. I'm all for permadeath but it has to be implemented just right so that players value their characters but not so much that they never take risks.

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon

    Depends on a game. Most MMOs revolve around your character's development. In those games, perma death doesn't really make sense.

    However, I'm all supportive for death penalties, be it losing some experience, stats or loot. Something to make you go "oh fuck" when you die, but not causing you to uninstall the game in a sheer volley or nerdrage.

  • CorehavenCorehaven Colorado Springs, COPosts: 1,538Member

    Perma death doesnt work in mmorpgs and almost all of them dont use it.  There's a reason for that. 

     

    Games in general, and Im talking in general, went beyond permadeath a long time ago.  Specifically RPGS.  RPGs are not a perma death type game.  It doesnt work well there.  Now a platformer or such is different but even those type of games have shied away from that concept. 

     

    Because its not a good concept.  I had a Nintendo as a little kid.  Around 1986 or so.  And it was expected. 

     

    Today games are far more complex and the time spent developing characters doesnt lend itself to this.  If perma death were in any RPG, no one would get past level 20 or so.  Or in order to reach end game, every challenge would have to be avoided because of the great risk and developers dont want players having to avoid the more challenging parts of a game. 

     

    Perma death is a pipe dream.  And a dream that would ruin most RPGS.  Its not a valid concept.  The industry understands this very well.  We should be able to as well.  Its not rocket science. 

  • stokkerstokker BucharestPosts: 8Member

    I do not think you could possibly consider calling a game RPG without having an enforced form of permadeath in it. I think all warm-blooded game developers of popular MMOs feel deep down in their hearts that this would be the way to go. The game world would be much more persistent and exciting should such a mehanic be enforced on players.

    Then of course there are these 2 little factors, namely i) the chores of our contemporary ITC infrastructure and ii) the need for an MMO to be successful financialy (i.e. caving to the needs/whines of carebears that simply cannot handle all the excitement), that render the implementation of permadeath impossible at the present time.

    Ironaically enough, since you mentioned EVE OP, permadeath would be a solution to all of its pressing problems: no more blobs, no more lagfest, no more alliance monopoly, no more 'Ooh, i can't catch up with 7-years old chars!' - BAM! you kill them, no more T2 BPO injustice and so forth.

  • ShivamShivam MilanPosts: 465Member

    Originally posted by stokker

    I do not think you could possibly consider calling a game RPG without having an enforced form of permadeath in it. I think all warm-blooded game developers of popular MMOs feel deep down in their hearts that this would be the way to go. The game world would be much more persistent and exciting should such a mehanic be enforced on players.

    Then of course there are these 2 little factors, namely i) the chores of our contemporary ITC infrastructure and ii) the need for an MMO to be successful financialy (i.e. caving to the needs/whines of carebears that simply cannot handle all the excitement), that render the implementation of permadeath impossible at the present time.

    Ironaically enough, since you mentioned EVE OP, permadeath would be a solution to all of its pressing problems: no more blobs, no more lagfest, no more alliance monopoly, no more 'Ooh, i can't catch up with 7-years old chars!' - BAM! you kill them, no more T2 BPO injustice and so forth.

    Yeah a perfect recepie of how to lose players in record time and kill all the hardwork they did on EVE for many years within a few days. 

    You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty -- Mahatma Gandhi

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  • KaledusKaledus 1013 Fran St., GAPosts: 73Member

    Anyone here ever play Diablo 2 Hardcore? This is another example of creating a player that only gets one life. Once they are dead, they can no longer be used. I had a friend who would always play this mode. He had lost a few to it at certain parts, yet he kept playing new characters. It pretty much takes the right mindset to obviously play games like these. He had balls, I will give him that. :)

  • stokkerstokker BucharestPosts: 8Member

    Originally posted by Shivam

    Originally posted by stokker

    I do not think you could possibly consider calling a game RPG without having an enforced form of permadeath in it. I think all warm-blooded game developers of popular MMOs feel deep down in their hearts that this would be the way to go. The game world would be much more persistent and exciting should such a mehanic be enforced on players.

    Then of course there are these 2 little factors, namely i) the chores of our contemporary ITC infrastructure and ii) the need for an MMO to be successful financialy (i.e. caving to the needs/whines of carebears that simply cannot handle all the excitement), that render the implementation of permadeath impossible at the present time.

    Ironaically enough, since you mentioned EVE OP, permadeath would be a solution to all of its pressing problems: no more blobs, no more lagfest, no more alliance monopoly, no more 'Ooh, i can't catch up with 7-years old chars!' - BAM! you kill them, no more T2 BPO injustice and so forth.

    Yeah a perfect recepie of how to lose players in record time and kill all the hardwork they did on EVE for many years within a few days. 

    See this guy's post? This is exactly what I was referring to at ii)

  • stokkerstokker BucharestPosts: 8Member

    Originally posted by Kaledus

    Anyone here ever play Diablo 2 Hardcore? This is another example of creating a player that only gets one life. Once they are dead, they can no longer be used. I had a friend who would always play this mode. He had lost a few to it at certain parts, yet he kept playing new characters. It pretty much takes the right mindset to obviously play games like these. He had balls, I will give him that. :)

    And luckily for us mortals, Hardcore mode is back with a vengeance in D3! o/

  • PKJackCrowPKJackCrow Ginowan cityPosts: 231Member

    This guy isnt afraid of permadeath. It's one of the reasons im awaiting wizardy online to come out. Plus in most games that have permadeath its not as harsh as people want to make it. If you  get killed you can get resurrected but i guess if you dont have any friends that might be an issue. most games handle this but having a corpse stay in world for a set time by level so that you can still recover. true permadeath happens when you cant get rezzed.

  • daltaniousdaltanious waPosts: 2,144Member Uncommon

    Sincerely, can not immagine more stupid idea. But for those who would like this idea ... I would expand this to if you die you are banned for life from playing any game. THAT would be something.

  • WSIMikeWSIMike Catskill, NYPosts: 5,564Member



    Originally posted by thekid1

    I think death in atleast single player games are done right these days.

    In Fallout 3 for example, I save often, so death means perhaps only a few minutes of incovenience. But still I don't want to die, it feels like failing, I will gobble up all my saved expensive health potions to prevent it.

    And then reload a previous save game.


     

    So, you're okay with that game's death system, because you can just continuously "rewind time" and go back to a previous saved game 'til you don't die or are otherwise satisfied with the outcome. 

    In my opinion, being able to do that is tantamount to death being painless. Especially if you save constantly.

    I've always thought save-points being placed at certain intervals where you had to fight to get to them, but didn't run the risk of losing more than say an hour of playtime would be reasonable. 

    Even if it's only 60 minutes, players actions would be far more meaningful because even if you did keep reloading that previous last saved game, you still had a ways to go before reaching the next save point, and safely reaching it - or better yet - reaching it by the skin of your teeth would be that much more an accomplishment. 


    As far as Perma-Death goes, I'd have to see how it's implemented in the context of the rest of the game first. On its own, it does sound intriguing. I used to play on a Neverwinter Nights server that had permadeath enabled.

    The server wasn't particularly "hard", but the sense that one fatal mistake could mean the end of hours of progress made encounters I'd normally take on without hesitation a much more meaningful experience. It actually heightened the sense of danger in the game. Which, of course, is the function of a death penalty in the first place... to make the world feel more dangerous and require players to think and play more carefully.

    "If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road,
    and the cash shop selling asphalt..."
    - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops

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  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by WSIMike
    Originally posted by thekid1 I think death in atleast single player games are done right these days. In Fallout 3 for example, I save often, so death means perhaps only a few minutes of incovenience. But still I don't want to die, it feels like failing, I will gobble up all my saved expensive health potions to prevent it. And then reload a previous save game.  
    So, you're okay with that game's death system, because you can just continuously "rewind time" and go back to a previous saved game 'til you don't die or are otherwise satisfied with the outcome. In my opinion, being able to do that is tantamount to death being painless. Especially if you save constantly.I've always thought save-points being placed at certain intervals where you had to fight to get to them, but didn't run the risk of losing more than say an hour of playtime would be reasonable. Even if it's only 60 minutes, players actions would be far more meaningful because even if you did keep reloading that previous last saved game, you still had a ways to go before reaching the next save point, and safely reaching it - or better yet - reaching it by the skin of your teeth would be that much more an accomplishment.  As far as Perma-Death goes, I'd have to see how it's implemented in the context of the rest of the game first. On its own, it does sound intriguing. I used to play on a Neverwinter Nights server that had permadeath enabled.The server wasn't particularly "hard", but the sense that one fatal mistake could mean the end of hours of progress made encounters I'd normally take on without hesitation a much more meaningful experience. It actually heightened the sense of danger in the game. Which, of course, is the function of a death penalty in the first place... to make the world feel more dangerous and require players to think and play more carefully.


    Only the people who actually want to play more carefully will. Everyone else will play something else. Perma-death and other harsh death penalties do not engender better or more careful play, they weed out the people who don't want to play that way. If you're talking single player or co-op rpg, that's fine because the purchase has already been made. If you're talking MMORPG, you're looking at weeding out your ongoing subscription paying customers.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • Superman0XSuperman0X San Jose, CAPosts: 1,577Member Uncommon

    The problem with PermaDeath is that no one thinks of the cost of life...

     

    Look at it this way. If you need to 'Buy'  new life every time as the cost of death this shifts the pain point to the start... not the end. Why does this matter? Well in a MMO, the one thing that you can never control is other players. You have no idea what they are going to do, and there actions can inflct the 'cost' of death on you.

     

    The real problem is when one player can inflict a cost on another with little or no risk. If they dont care about their character, they can just kill yours (or cause it to be killed). This makes the cost one sided. However, if they have to pay up front (rather than risk time invested) then everyone has the same investment, and takes the same risk. Sure, you can still grief others, but you risk losing something as well, and they can return the favor. This puts the power in the hands of the community, who can make those that are unwelcome 'pay' for their actions.

     

    The cost of death is a great way to build communities, who then work together to protect each other, and the investment that they have made. It just has to be paid up front, rather than at the end.

  • OlgarkOlgark BostonPosts: 319Member Uncommon

    I loved Ultima Online before all the expansions came out. I liked the death system in that if you was killed you left your corpse and everything on it for all to loot/steal even some of the npcs would take items off you.

    Then I played EQ1 and the good old corpse runs. I loved it playing as a necromancer I had a very lucrative in game craft of getting corpses out of dungeons.

    Then came the MMO's where death just meant a repair bill and a 20 minute timer on stats and the suicide run to leave the dungeon. Death had no meaning, and now we have quick travel. So the suicide runs at the end are pointless.

     

    I would play a perma-death MMO. I want to have consequence when I die in game. Its one reason I love Eve Online if you dont keep that clone up to date your going to loose skills. Also updating a clone will cost you money, so it makes you fly better and smarter.

     

    WoW, DAoC, EQ2 all these MMO's have cheapend the death within the industries and now other companies follow suit because people have grown soft. I am amazed and pleased CCP is going to break this mould with their WoD MMO, and its one I will be playing.

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  • garrygarry Birmingham, ALPosts: 263Member

    The pros and cons of permadeath or serious death penalties have been done to 'death' in the above posts. No need to be redundant.

     

    If the 'death penalty' is permanent or even very serious then I do not bother with the game. Period. It is a matter of personal choice. Permadeath is already in games, all of them. Just delete your character, thats permadeath. Drop/delete all your stuff - thats serious penalty. Drop a major percentage of your 'cash' - thats serious penalty. Whats the problem? Self Discipline! Overweening desire to make everybody else play like you want.

     

    Companies can make any type of game they want. Play it or not - personal choice.

  • daemmoniumdaemmonium Buenos AiresPosts: 1Member

    How do you dare to write about permadeath and not mention Haven and Hearth? It's from the makers of Salem (the game from Paradox you named) and it has true permadeath. You can only inherit a mere % of your previous character after dying, basically putting you behind for months.

    That's the only real permadeath game I know (besides hardcore mode on Diablo)

  • IllyssiaIllyssia LondonPosts: 1,524Member

    I thikn perma death mmo gaming could make a comeback in the Facebook PvP side of things. Would be niche but it is an instant enough conscept for that gaming market.

  • happyfartshappyfarts bzPosts: 85Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by dodsfall

    I can't think of any game that blocks you from permadeath if you want to play that way.

     If you really want permadeath, simply delete your character  when you die and re-roll.

    You fail to grasp the concept of perma-death.

    If you simply re-rolled on death, it would be just some bizarre self-inflicted punishment that would not affect the gaming environment around you.

    If perma-death was obligatory, the real danger of death influences people's gameplay. You will not see people running about naked. People will think twice before seeking combat, and with whom they will seek it.

    With increased risk comes a heightened sense of achievement from coming out alive. Increased satisfaction at pulling off a stunt most people wouldn't dare for fear of the consequences.

    An optional perma-death is pointless.

    ... but that said, I think perma-death is too severe. Though death should carry a heavy enough punishment to make it unpleasant and something to avoid, perma-death simply seems a bit overboard, especially from a casual player's point of view. Some compromise is needed.

  • midmagicmidmagic Portland, ORPosts: 614Member

    The last time I feared death? EQ1 Plane of Fear break-ins but even this really wasn't all that bad with a smart group. Could be done just fine with a single group. Feared this because body recovery (and the potentially loss of all equipment)  was not essentially trivial like every other zone. Of course, this fear went away once the zone was on farm status.

     

    Permadeath.

    Certainly not with a standardly designed MMO. Characters are expected to survive for years and content is designed knowing that players are absolutely going to die many times before and after having successfully mastered the content.

    Then we have, "On a long enough timeline. The survival rate for everyone drops to zero." Internet issues. Computer issues. Server issues. Noobs or trolls in the group. Simple mistakes or momentary distractions.

    Permadeath is a workable concept but any power gains a player can make would probably have to be accumulable over an increadiblly short period of time. If power gains are time consuming and "limitless" then there is likely to end up being a few heavily supported "god mode" characters. While might be fun for some, I'm not sure how popular this would be.

    It could, and does work in some small scale online games, and could probably be applied to MMOs but the gameplay and the incentives to continue playing would need to be much different.

    Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.

  • SuprGamerXSuprGamerX Montreal, QCPosts: 531Member

      Heh , we already got EVE-Online and only the real hardcore people, men and women ,plays EVE-Online , and I'm damn proud of being with a great community.   Your hard work can go out the window in a matter of minutes but what defines EVE players are the guts that it takes to actually risk it all for the good of your corp / alliance , and honestly , you won't see the EVE phenomena anywhere else.  CCP nailed it right with EVE-Online , although it doesn't have the numbers as other popular MMO , EVE has the best Mature / idiot ratio out of any MMO and that being having ALOT of bright , mature and funny people. Probably why I'm still glued to it since 2006 to this day and helping out a new corp achieve PvP glory , helping newbies taking the first steps into the great PvP world of EVE is exciting and risky business but in the end it's all about the team work and the fun , win or lose it's a learning experience for all.

     The rest of the MMO world , meh, been there done that , sprites with swords and stuff , a lame death penalty , what's the point of controlling a hero if your scared of heading out town to PvP? I never understood that , yet those same people complain that EVE doesn't have the sense of character belonging because you pilot a ship?  Please , that's so lame and pathetic that it makes no sense at all.

  • GwynbleiddGwynbleidd TehranPosts: 9Member

    Permadeeath wouldn't work in an MMO and it's simple it doesn't worth it. Why would someone play a game with permadeath specially since there's a great chance of getting griefed by a band of players that enjoy inflicting pain upon others. In PVP games gankers and griefer are giving people enough trouble without permadeath. 

     

    Permadeath would work in games that start in a seasonal manner with a month or two lenght to crown a champion in the end, something like T-LORD or The Legend of the Red Dragon, the game I loved and cherished playing back in the BBS networks era. The game was just in text but we loved it and played it with great vigor and excitement. That would work, only that, in an MMO manner only EVE Online has the right formula for death. That also terrifies me to get killed and activate a clone. That wouldn't be me, a new person with my memory, but a new person nontheless.

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