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General: SOPA, Gamers & the ESA

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Comments

  • orsonstfuorsonstfu Belaton, LAPosts: 203Member

    SOPA is just another example of how the government is trying to police the country, America should resist teh urge to have government act as if it your mother and father.

     

    It's just a long line of freedoms being taken away.

     

    Just so you know SOPA isn't just about pirates. It has far more consequences than piracy not to mention the defination they use for piracy isn't what you think it is.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,860Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by kalinis
    sopa is a great rule. People who violate copyright laws who hack acconts and pirate games deserver to go to jail
    Sorry companies put alot of money into making games, music, and movies and people who violate the law to pirate them deserver to go to jail
    im in favor of sopa, pirateing of stuff has to stop, I cant wait till annonymous is all in jail for hacking. 
    How anyone can deffend people who pirate , and hack stuff is byone me they are criminals people. 

    I do not think there are many people disputing copyright and intellectual property protection, problem is how they want to protect it.

    Currently it reminds an attempt of killing a fly with M1 Abrams.


    They want to make web services liable for their content and then mess up with internet protocols handling the website names.


    Only more harm than good can come out from current form of SOPA.

  • JimmacJimmac TXPosts: 1,667Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by kalinis

    sopa is a great rule. People who violate copyright laws who hack acconts and pirate games deserver to go to jail

    Sorry companies put alot of money into making games, music, and movies and people who violate the law to pirate them deserver to go to jail

    im in favor of sopa, pirateing of stuff has to stop, I cant wait till annonymous is all in jail for hacking. 

    How anyone can deffend people who pirate , and hack stuff is byone me they are criminals people. 

    Regardless of how terrible copyright violations are, we shouldn't just grant the government and businesses unprecedented levels of authority and power to combat the violations. Even if you believe the stated cause of the bill is just (ie combating copyright violation), it does not automatically follow that the methods laid out in the bill for fulfilling that cause are constitutional or proper in a freedom-based society.

    Sure, you hate the copyright violators. Okay, but this bill goes much farther than that. The damage this bill will do greatly outweighs any benefits that will come from it. If the bill passes, our society will be giving up a whole lot for very little.

    If you want better laws concerning copyright violation, go for it. Find another way to go after copyright violations, a way that won't completely destroy the foundations of our society and the internet. There are many options when it comes to enforcing the law. SOPA is about the worst possible option. Go champion a better one.

  • JimmacJimmac TXPosts: 1,667Member Uncommon

    [mod edited]

    I think it would be great for mmorpg.com to take a stance on the issue. If they are against SOPA, then they should join the rest of us. If they are for SOPA, then I'd like to see some good reasons for it by one of the talented writers on their staff.

  • PilnkplonkPilnkplonk zagrebPosts: 1,532Member

    Originally posted by kalinis

    sopa is a great rule. People who violate copyright laws who hack acconts and pirate games deserver to go to jail

    Sorry companies put alot of money into making games, music, and movies and people who violate the law to pirate them deserver to go to jail

    im in favor of sopa, pirateing of stuff has to stop, I cant wait till annonymous is all in jail for hacking. 

    How anyone can deffend people who pirate , and hack stuff is byone me they are criminals people. 

    Hey man, I agree with you, believe it or not.

    But the problem is that SOPA is not about stopping piracy. Yes, I know that it sounds incredible and outlandish but certain parties are using piracy concerns in order  to push their interests at the expense of everybody, including the people they purport to protect. Stop the press lol, a trojan horse bill is being passed through the congress! Who would have EVER thought of that?!

    SOPA is all about a) old media trying to retain their primacy in the face of new technologies and b) corporate control where those with more money can directly dictate their interests without even giving a nod to the due process of law.

    Most tech companies are dead-set against it. Apple is against it. Steam is totally against it. I love the statement that Steam owner dude gave, it goes something like this: "Piracy is not a theft problem. It is service problem. If we can compete with pirates in terms of service, we'll win." And you know what? He is totally right, as is Apple.

    I pirated sh**loads of games but I don't pirate Steam games. Why? Because it's a good service and I know the $$ goes into the right hands and the same goes with iStore. I pirated mp3s until that came along. Compare this with UBI soft or EA where they go out of their way to screw up their products with DRM and insult the customers with constant threats. And the same goes with DVDs where I pay 20$ to be forced to watch commercials and get threatened by the FBI. Jeez I torrent movies THAT I OWN on DVD just so I don't have to go through that crap. Well FU, morons. I'm not paying good money to be insulted and picked upon.

    Artists and developers are MASSIVELY against SOPA because they were being utterly screwed using the old models and they understand that SOPA is nothing more than an attempt by the greedy useless corporate pigs to turn back the clock and keep living off their honest work.

     

  • fatboy21007fatboy21007 triadelphia, WVPosts: 409Member

    Hey, for those supporting SOPA, So ya want the gov to gain control over the net, alright, So you want them to do the same mess they did with are economy with the internet?. Btw, even if Anom is busted, theirs thousands like him out their, its a bug that well, weill never go away. So ask your selves this, Do you want the gov to control the net the same way they control their spening habits? . Personally i dont, and i like my gaming sites, and i pray steam doesnt get hurt by this. However, THis also means No posting pictures of any singers, no playing their songs, sticking them on profiles, technically you cant even talk about them. You all shoul go read EXactly wat SOPA does, instead of listening to websites giving 5% of the content and hiding the 95% that they dont want ya to know. Sites like Youtube will get hit hardest by this.  Then facebook,myspace all the social sites. THen ya got sites like this one, and other gaming sites that will get nailed for even posting ingame videos as thats copyright infringement according to SOPA. Welcome to the world those of u who want to vote for this, are helping create, Peace. (btw its the net, so dont care bout perfect typin skills, :-P )

  • PilnkplonkPilnkplonk zagrebPosts: 1,532Member

    As for the idea that mmorpg.com is somehow supporting SOPA... I don't buy it. Their site profile is basically a prime target for SOPA. I'd take them down with a well placed Justin Bieber pic. Jeez, my avatar alone would be enough for the whole site to be shut down.

    And all in the name of "combating piracy." Do they take us for morons?!?!

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,860Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by PilnkplonkSteam is totally against it. I love the statement that Steam owner dude gave, it goes something like this: "Piracy is not a theft problem. It is service problem. If we can compete with pirates in terms of service, we'll win." And you know what? He is totally right, as was Apple.
     

    Yet, Bethesda, with their Skyrim being offered via Steam, is crying out loud about profits they lose to pirated copies...


    The more titles will Steam offer, more money they will make but developers will be losing same money as ever.

    Note:

    Also, Steam uses their own DRM...

  • kakasakikakasaki Lockhart, TXPosts: 1,205Member

    Originally posted by lizardbones

    Personally, I plan on putting some effort into not purchasing anything from Sony, who is supporting SOPA. It may be hard to not purchase anything from anyone who supports SOPA, but I plan on putting some effort into doing that.

    I agree. Heck, I will cancel my Vanguard sub over this and let them know my reason for cancelling. I know, I know, what do they care about one sub to an almost dead game anyways. But heck, it is the principle of the thing!

    A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...

  • PilnkplonkPilnkplonk zagrebPosts: 1,532Member

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk



    Steam is totally against it. I love the statement that Steam owner dude gave, it goes something like this: "Piracy is not a theft problem. It is service problem. If we can compete with pirates in terms of service, we'll win." And you know what? He is totally right, as was Apple.

     




     

    Yet, Bethesda, with their Skyrim being offered via Steam, is crying out loud about profits they lose to pirated copies...



    The more titles will Steam offer, more money they will make but developers will be losing same money as ever.

    Piracy will never go away. It's as old as there is entertainment lol.

    It is an ongoing battle and will always be.

    However, SOPA is not about piracy at all. SOPA is about EA being able to automatically take down a site like this because it does not like the reviews or even forum discussions on a pretext of me having an avatar depicting Woody Harrelson. That's what SOPA really is... Heck, under SOPA they don't even have to mention old Woody - they just need to say "Take it down," without having to give ANY REASON FOR IT. NONE. And if the court says that there is no reason for this, that they were wrong, they can just reply - "We don't care, it stays down."

    It gives TOTAL POWER over the internet, without ANY safeguards, and I mean ANY SAFEGUARDS to anyone with enough money. It removes all protections for free speech, all of them.

    And don't tell me I'm paranoid. It already started happening but it was stopped because of legal and constitutional provisions that protect freedom of speech and expression. Like that Uri Geller scandal where he used "copyright violation" to take down critic videos off youtube... and this awesome crap with UniversalMusic which took down a music video off youtube just because "it didn't like it".. and no ifs and buts. They just don't like it, have no claim over the content or the artists and the law can just shrug. Nice, innit? Thankfully there are still some safeguards against this total bullying but it is exactly what is to become commonplace if SOPA goes in effect.

    It is not about piracy, AT ALL.

    It is not about "making order" on the internet but exactly the opposite - it removes the laws safeguarding internet and replaces them with unbridled plutocratic anarchy, a blank check for anybody with a big enough stick.

    It's like combatting parking violations in a city by giving everybody machine guns and abolishing all laws. It's just insane.

     

  • redpinsredpins Clovis, CAPosts: 147Member

    Piracy comes from people who would never buy the game in the first place. It is wrong, horrible and has costed me dearly in times past. Most games today need to offer a demo, so atleast you can play before you commit $60 for a turd online game. To make matter worst, SOPA is disguised as a internet anti piracy bill. If you even READ SOPA, you will find out it is not a internet anti piracy bill, but rather the construction on the limitations that will allow big business to squash out any internet millionaires alongside the government powers. Read the bill, stop being ignorant, and start voting against it. Anyone in their right mind would be against this bill, it is in violation of our amendments to the constitution.

    On the impact side, there are sites with over 1 million signatures AGAINST SOPA, with case being able to sue the US goverment and reverse the bill. I bet you all that agree with SOPA agree to be internet sales taxed like in California? Any transaction, including payments via PayPal are subject to internet sales tax begining summer of 2012 by Governor Brown. The dork killed his campaign with this motion, but such a law is however unconstitutional. Regardless of the red zone of a state or federal budget operation, such laws are harsh and violations of freedom.

    I am against SOPA and against Piracy. Good luck with trying to justify the government telling you what you can do at certain times of day. This is the start, the more pushes and laws that they get away with, and it will only get worst. No problem for those who don't care, they like being controled like cattle only guided from food the bed with the help of the government.

    I struggle not with life, money, emotions, and world, but against old mindsets and selves to be proven obsolete in a age and time of rapid changes. Go create fun, so you can have fun.

  • OzmodanOzmodan Hilliard, OHPosts: 7,183Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by kalinis

    sopa is a great rule. People who violate copyright laws who hack acconts and pirate games deserver to go to jail

    Sorry companies put alot of money into making games, music, and movies and people who violate the law to pirate them deserver to go to jail

    im in favor of sopa, pirateing of stuff has to stop, I cant wait till annonymous is all in jail for hacking. 

    How anyone can deffend people who pirate , and hack stuff is byone me they are criminals people. 

    So you support the removal of all social networks?  Like Facebook, UTube, etc.  None can operate under SOPA because they cannot afford to monitor content added by people.

    I hate pirates.  I don't pirate software, download unpurchased music or violate copyright rules and don't approve of those that do.  The idea thing that this law will fix that activity is ludicrous.  

    You really should read up on what the law does before you support it because you look foolish doing so.

  • grimm6thgrimm6th Overland Park, KSPosts: 973Member

    Originally posted by Ozmodan

    Originally posted by kalinis

    sopa is a great rule. People who violate copyright laws who hack acconts and pirate games deserver to go to jail

    Sorry companies put alot of money into making games, music, and movies and people who violate the law to pirate them deserver to go to jail

    im in favor of sopa, pirateing of stuff has to stop, I cant wait till annonymous is all in jail for hacking. 

    How anyone can deffend people who pirate , and hack stuff is byone me they are criminals people. 

    So you support the removal of all social networks?  Like Facebook, UTube, etc.  None can operate under SOPA because they cannot afford to monitor content added by people.

    I hate pirates.  I don't pirate software, download unpurchased music or violate copyright rules and don't approve of those that do.  The idea thing that this law will fix that activity is ludicrous.  

    You really should read up on what the law does before you support it because you look foolish doing so.

    The same goes to any large forum site (like this).  Heck, after reading the actual bill, I was half considering the possibilty of somebody trolling through the internet posting things that would get sites blacklisted, and I realized that it is just too easy (if SOPA was passed, I'm sure there would be somebody who sould do this).

    On a side note, if SOPA were to actually pass, the internet would probably just adapt to circumvent it, the consequence being that the companies that we all depend on these days would no longer be paying US taxes...you can't fight the internet and win.

    I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.

  • CeridithCeridith Toronto, ONPosts: 2,980Member

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

     

    Steam is totally against it. I love the statement that Steam owner dude gave, it goes something like this: "Piracy is not a theft problem. It is service problem. If we can compete with pirates in terms of service, we'll win." And you know what? He is totally right, as was Apple.

     



     

    Yet, Bethesda, with their Skyrim being offered via Steam, is crying out loud about profits they lose to pirated copies...



    The more titles will Steam offer, more money they will make but developers will be losing same money as ever.

    Note:

    Also, Steam uses their own DRM...

    Piracy isn't what people are worried about with regards to SOPA and it's sister bill PIPA being passed. It's the disasterously dangerous way these bills are worded that allows them to be used to squelch free speech and innovation from start up companies.

    These bills are like trying to kill cockroaches with a nuclear bomb. You might kill the ones in the direct blast area, but it will just drive the others into hiding as everything else burns.

  • RenoakuRenoaku Posts: 1,005Member Uncommon

    1. MMORPG.COM is not supporting the SOPA Act in any way. I just checked recently and they closed down the Politics Section, and the Religion section they simply do not allow topics about such anymore. One of the Moderators already said this on another thread topic about SOPA.

    2. Since this was posted by a Moderator, I will say that it is up to those individuals who wish to support SOPA, or Not. If SOPA was just about stopping piracy all together I would be for it, however I have found that SOPA is a violation of our first right ammendments and U.S Constitution in my opinion after looking into SOPA myself. It gives rights to whoever is in charge to censorship the internet, which means I will no longer be able to access certain sites such as Pirate Bay, or any site they deem has copyrighted material even YouTube if I am recording a video of my family in real life for example and someone drives past in a car playing a song I could get sued for what I know unless I edit all that out.

    3. Piracy is not as bad as they say anyways I mean no offense and wont name software companies specifically here, but there are some software companies they sell their software license for $1000 USD for the entire collectors suite of programs, then the next update comes out they again you have to pay at least $500 or such for an update, I really do not have that type of money. As for illegally cracking software there are 3 ways to do it. 1. You can run the software on a virtual machine, and system restore the Virtual machine 30 days each time it expires so you can keep it as long as you need. 2. You can use a crack, or 3. You can use a program that allows you to inject running the program at a certain date before the trial expires called Run as Date, it is a legit program used for the right purposes.

    4. Piracy of Movies, Games, Music, ETC. Again it is not as bad as they say, I have a netflix subscription myself so I pay for movies, however if Netflix doesn't have the movie I google the movie and find a free site streaming the movie, wherever or not I go to a site like Pirate bay and obtain an illegal download or not is besides the point because even if I stream a movie from netflix I could just hit the record button on my camtasia and that is just as illegal, however the only difference is I am not making any profit off anything, and I am not selling their movie or work in any way so really no one knows but I do pay for my movies legally through services such as netflix however I will not pay for 1. Rentals for 1 day streaming for one single movie, 2. I will not go to a red box, 3.  I will not pay for Video on demand rip-off for streaming movies, 4. I will not go to a video store.

    Why? To answer this I beleive that Cable Television needs to come to an end there is no reason cable television should exist anymore period, even Satellite can come to an end pretty much. The only TV Channels you need live are 1. The News Channels, and 2. The Weather Channel, Beyond that there is no point in having streaming movies through a Cable, because it is a waste of bandwidth and we all know it. We have DVR's and Netflix for example so if we want to watch a movie just storing the movie in a Database people can pay a monthly fee without all those stupid HBO, Stars charges, and go pick any movie, and episode they want to watch and watch it on their time on their Television through a digtial box without the need for high priced cable/Bandwidth fees, all it would requite is an internet connection aka Cable Internet, and without all those extra signals bandwidth on Cable Modems could be increased.

    5. Game Piracy is a serious joke, some games are not even worth buying period I will not pay $50 a copy of a game when I don't know if it is worth playing or not. If I want to purchase a game then I will wait until christmas and spend $5 for the game on steam if I dont know if it is worth playing or not.

    Another Fact is that Game Piracy is easy to deal with if they do not want their games pirated all they have to do is make most of its features online such as game save files so that they save to a server with all their other data and the person has to login with a user name and password for them to save properly this is a simple solution, but the game companies like those that made some of the most pirates games such as Red Faction Armageddon, or Dead Island, These games are easily pirated throguh steam or not by using certain programs I wont name here and for what you dont know how to pirate there is google it teaches you everything step by step for almost anything, but again those that actually like the game will buy the game so no worries there. I just bought like 5 steam games + addon packs as well.

    6. Music Piracy, This is something you cant or will never be able to stop as long as recording from a computer, radio, or anything else exists period, You can record movies from a computer, or record music to a tape on your Radio so there is no real way to stop this, what is going to stop me from walking around real life and selling my tapes illegally or making an illegal underground exchange through SD Cards between friends for real money or piracy I have seen others doing it in my community so what would SOPA Really do.

    I am not saying that I have actually done any of this piracy as I have listed above but simply I know more than enough about all the piracy to know how to get around pretty much any security a software company or game throws at me, and as far as I am concerned their electronic agreement with an I agree button means nothing to me period unless I actually sign it in real life in a court it could be debated however I really don't care about City Laws, or State Laws myself, I don't even bother to read them all the only laws that really make good enough sense and everyone should be following are the ones in our U.S Constitution which people are completely trying to get rid of every single day. I am not saying that I go out break laws daily or something like that just making a point about some of the laws that states, and city have tried to pass which have been unconstitutional.

    The united States OF America Is still We The People Right?

    I would say that We The People, never really voted for SOPA, this has been something passed by Senate, Software Industries, and Government under our noses, therefore we really did not vote for such, and the only people who are in favor of such realyl are the big Software and Entertainment industries who are paying off other people to help in favor of them and such as well too most likely. But hey for those supporting the SOPA act, why not boycott all their games, and Software it will help them realise that we are in control not them. Again You can't restrict the Free Flow OF Information on the Internet, and You Can't restrict our rights as American Citizens.

    Anonymous, whoever you are as Anonymous, Do what you have to do to stop this corruption, I will do my part by complaining to the ESA myself and continue to spread the word about SOPA. We can't have these acts of our government to ruin the United States for what it is and what it has been for all these years, and hey the Software, and Game industry knows I am right. Internet Censorship is not the key to solving any of this, and will not stop illegal downloaders either as some sites say, but even if SOPA does get passed there will be a new threat on the internet which they will try to pass which gives people the right to know exactly where you are from, aka they will get a bill started to get rid of proxy, and VPN services because of illegal uploading to site like Rapid Share & Mega Upload, and hey this is just me thinking ahead.

    So bottom line Software Industry, and Gaming Industry No offense, but you are nothing without us paying for your products, so we Dictate the orders for you, not you controlling us. You Protect your own work, And hey the game companies know they can keep illegal pirates from pirating their games by require a connection to their servers and storing the save data to their servers instead of their own pc they just dont do it because this prevents offline play, and costs them money. If you do not want your movie, music, art, or Games pirated, Do not create them. Because no matter what they are going to get stolen by at least one person out there, and from there it can go vial, not that I support this, and I  do support DMCA takedowns. But not Cneosrship. Otherwise by broadcasting, showing anyone your music Lyrics, etc, know that people have the right to free speech, and will use your work with fair use with anything they please such as a Video on YouTube, or background music playing, etc, don't like it, dont release it, dont make money that simple. But hey I am sure they get paid enough anyways its just all these movie stars, and such all they do is go splurge and spend their cash so fast, get their fame up so fast that they loose a lot of money compared to the common person flipping burgers then they have the nerve to complain about piracy.

    I mean no offense to anyone but this is the way I feel about all of this, and the links I just read from the moderator, I can't support such a bill that violates our U.S rights, and again I might as well move to a foreign country like China, or Asia so I can have internet censorship because that is where our Country is going starting with this.

    http://www.jesseventura.net/ Ever wonder why the United States has so many FEMA camps, well the conspiracies are all right here, things that will start a chain of events like SOPA, aka possible Civil War.

  • ZyxxZyxx SlagelsePosts: 48Member

    ARGH... They only do this to get more power..!

    Sign here..


  • LexinLexin Ellenville, NYPosts: 702Member Uncommon

    I don't support SOPA and as it turns out one of the people who represents me is one of the leaders on this bill so they will not get my vote. Now if somehow this bill does pass then I am going to just cancel my internet service.

    image

  • RazeeksterRazeekster Solon, MEPosts: 2,201Member Uncommon

    The governement has already passed the NDAA and now they want to pass SOPA... NDAA gives the government the power to put any terrist suspects in jail, but the truth is ihat's just a cover up and they now have the power to put ANYONE in jail by saying that because the NDAA also states the suspect will not be allowed a court trial or anything. Basically if you do somethign the government doesn't like, you're going to rot behind bars for the rest of your life without even ever getting a court trial or a chance to say your side of the story. As if to add onto this now the SOPA may take away freedom of speech over the internet.. The book 1984, wasn't far off with it's famous quote, "Big Brother is watching you."


    Smile

  • RenoakuRenoaku Posts: 1,005Member Uncommon

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJIuYgIvKsc <<< This would explain SOPA and hey I believe its right because I did some searches myself and saw this stuff for download myself on Cnet, and even on my ISP page before seriously.

  • CeridithCeridith Toronto, ONPosts: 2,980Member

    Originally posted by Renoaku

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJIuYgIvKsc <<< This would explain SOPA and hey I believe its right because I did some searches myself and saw this stuff for download myself on Cnet, and even on my ISP page before seriously.

    Thanks for the link...

    I never actually realized that the distributors of all the big name file sharing programs back in the day were all being hosted and actively promoted on websites owned by the same companies that today support SOPA. Thinking back about it now, I do recall all of the promoting, advertisements, and content that was pro-piracy on these sites back in the day. The research that was done for the video does look to check out as well...

    I'm just stupefied by this.

  • AutemOxAutemOx Fullerton, CAPosts: 1,704Member

    This sort of thing makes me sick.  This is a symptom of a bigger problem called CORPORATE PERSONHOOD.  SOPA will be passed because the $$ is behind it.  The end.  

    Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.

  • JayBirdzJayBirdz Clarksville, TNPosts: 1,017Member

    Originally posted by Ceridith

    Originally posted by Renoaku

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJIuYgIvKsc <<< This would explain SOPA and hey I believe its right because I did some searches myself and saw this stuff for download myself on Cnet, and even on my ISP page before seriously.

    Thanks for the link...

    I never actually realized that the distributors of all the big name file sharing programs back in the day were all being hosted and actively promoted on websites owned by the same companies that today support SOPA. Thinking back about it now, I do recall all of the promoting, advertisements, and content that was pro-piracy on these sites back in the day. The research that was done for the video does look to check out as well...

    I'm just stupefied by this.

    Back in the day?  Cnet (for example) still hosts the Peer to Peer software. Adverts are still there.

    http://download.cnet.com/BitTorrent/3000-2196_4-10211384.html  

    Another edit: I am not promoting anything.  Just showing that the adverts are still on the site.  Along with the tools to pirate. On another look the ads do change.  So it might take a couple of page loads to see the p2p ads. 

     

    About the thread in general: Guessing the staff got enough pm's/ emails to write an article on SOPA.  Shame you all locked every thread about the topic. Better late than never.

     

  • PrecusorPrecusor PalmaPosts: 4,733Member Uncommon

    Obama is lobbying and threatening countries to enact SOPA on allot western countries.

  • PilnkplonkPilnkplonk zagrebPosts: 1,532Member

    Originally posted by Precusor

    Obama is lobbying and threatening countries to enact  SOPA on every single western country in the world and you wonder why the fucking world hates you?

    No, no, no...

    Calm down.

    "They" hate America because they hate its freedoms as exemplified by NDAA and SOPA... and because they want to stone their women and pirate the latest Sherlock Holmes flicks. Everybody knows that. What are you talking about?

  • PrecusorPrecusor PalmaPosts: 4,733Member Uncommon

    What ever.. Spain passed its version of Sopa and its all thanks to Obama and his threats.

     

     

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