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Originally posted by dubyahite Thanks for the info Fony. That pretty much convinced me that GW 2 holds little interest to me. I love playing healers, like I posted earlier in the thread. I get super bored with dps classes and I only sometimes choose to play tanks. I really love support roles, and if there's no healer class I'm not that interested. Perhaps I'll pick it up, since it's B2P, and play it as a single player game for a while, but I doubt that I will be able to commit to that game.
I really don't think this thread should exist, to be honest. This GW2 vs SWTOR thing is overdone.
Not to mention that GW2 isn't out yet, so even though all the signs are good, we don't know for certain what it's like until we have it in hand.
If people want to learn about GW2, they should head over to that forum where I'm sure we'll be happy to address any questions.
While I'm here, I did want to clarify one point if I may. Even though dedicated healers won't exist in GW2 (you can't even target allies), support still exists. They look at it like healing is a passive form of support, you're dealing with damage that has already happened. GW2 will allow for more proactive defense. This is only one example, but these are 5 skills from the Guardian profession. In the 1st and 4th, they set up barriers to block or reflect projectiles. In the 2nd, the symbol that appears on the shields indicates that the guardian used an ability (not the one featured) which would cause that player to block the next attack on them.
There's also buffs, debuffs, mob control, setting up cross profession combos, mid-combat rezzing, as well as abilities which have a secondary healing or party regeneration component to them. Other professions don't really have the walls the guardian has, but they have their own tricks. You can't be dedicated support any more than you'd be a dedicated healer or a dedicated DPS, but there are definitely ways to skew your build towards a particular role.
But anyway, as I said, the place to continue this or any further GW2 discussion is in the GW2 forums. If you're enjoying SWTOR, I'm happy you found a game you like. If you want to know more about GW2, visit us over there.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I don't see why people wont play both... GW2 wont be so grindy as many other MMOs so it will be an excellent alt game for someone who needs a break at times from their other game (like TOR). GW2s B2P method helps of course, you will only have to pay one monthly fee.
Both games have their strenghts and weaknesses. If you want to raid for gear then TOR is the right game, while GW2s massive PvP is at another level.
So why choose?
Originally posted by dontadow This a long post written to give an unbiased, educated and possible theory on small changes SWTOR can implement over 3 months to compete with GW2’s impending release. I am, by no means, a person complaining about this game. The improvements to story and social aspects of the game really have made me a fan of the MMO genre once again (as opposed to just having something to do with my family, we actually have fun with the game.) This is a big thing for me to say, considering I was never going to buy SWTOR until December 5th, when my brother convinced me. I just didn’t read enough that would make it sound more innovative than Guild Wars 2 . However, it is not enough to stop me from wanting to play Guild Wars 2 because the major gripes are still there with MMOs (linear leveling zones, 1 and done quests, lack of spontaneity) star wars has 6 months at least, to implement game play options (not rehash the entire game, that’s impossible) that will make it able to compete with guild wars in terms of MMO innovation. There are four aspects that I see as clear advantages guild wars has over star wars. Below is a list of these advantages and realistic ways SWTOR could close the gap without too much “effort”. As a programmer, I tried to think of suggestions that do not require major game overhaul. That can easily be included as additional content or patch somewhere in a 6 month period. So yeah, I would love the elimination of the xp system, it’s not going to happen. Guild Wars has eliminated the holy trinity system SWTOR can not do this without rehauling their game. However, they can take the rift approach. SWTOR could allow multiple builds of characters. Another solution, is to allow players alts to become members of their crew, allowing players to easily change out characters using a quick logout-login process. Sure, DHT is still needed, but at least now players can more easily swap out builds for others. SWTOR could also implement new ability trees that blend and meld the trinity. Class options in SWTOR are limited. Guild Wars will not have traditional quests, instead quests will be stumbled upon in the open world and spawn dynamic content based on variables. This is a hard one for SWTOR to overcome, but not out of the realm of possible. SWTOR could use this time to develop a third or fourth faction in their mythos with one of them being non-playable. This extra faction could be “random invasions” that happen in areas on the planet, in zones and be varied very akin to Rift’s rifts. These variable encounters could be zone specific and allow for additional quest threads. This would be a great 6 month mark introduction and encourage people to replay earlier zones. The threat level could be triggered by an equation that calculates number of people in the zone. And it could come with penalities. Perhaps increasing the difficulty of zone monsters if it is failed or providing a boost to rewards if successful. These will last until the next invasion is triggered. (possibly by a number of reoccurring quests being performed). In order to counteract Guild Wars (no need for exclamation mark quest guy) these quests can be automatically provided to players ni the area with everyone receiving the same rewards or penalties. SWTOR could use the method they use to autoinstance content for classes and change the formula to autoinstance content based on level. Thus parties of a certain level on newer planets may get a completely different story. This would greatly encourage SWTOR’s effort to get people to create alts. Give players the option (via preferences-interface) to cut off quest objectives (such as collect 5 of this, or kill 3 of this). This feels like it would just be instituting a button that hides some content. Guild Wars will have autogrouping If Rift can do this, SWTOR should be able to. The #1 complaint now is people saying that they are not able to easily quest. Sure, I know this argument is lame. But most people are afraid to click on someone and rlight click invite for fear of rejection. Which is why Rift rocks. When you go into a zone, you have an option to join the public party and do the rift quests others are doing. This would be nice even now for heroic quests. Guild Wars will have multiple storylines per dungeon SWTOR should be able to truly flourish with this one, using true/false conditions, SWTOR could introduce new content in flashpoints based on decisions. For instance, when playing essex, I really wanted to kill the supposed traitor diplomat, what would have happened if I had that option. Currently, too many dialogue options mean nothing in the long run (but light and dark points). SWTOR already has a few quests that do this, open up quest chains with alternative endings. This sounds like the easiet thing to do in SWTOR. My hope is that bioware will clearly see that it is at a disadvantage with Guild Wars 2, and, just as it did to Rift/Wow, so will Guild Wars 2 do to them if they don’t have a few awesome patches before GW2 is released.
You have writen a lot but i think that the only way swtor can compete with gw2 is if it go b2p.
Imagine what is going to happen if a b2p game is better than a pay to play.All other games will fail to the ground.
Although this seems impossible to happen but you never know.
Because people tend to only play one game at a time old games die every time new one is released!
If by long shot Guild Wars 2 wl be first game in a decade to live up to its hype, I'll play both
Two very different games, and i am sure they will each have their own fanbase. I honestly don't see ToR or GW 2 having any effect on each other.
EDIT: since GW 2 is b2p once you purcahse it you can play forever. So i highly doubt GW2 affect any games sub base to tell you the truth. People will play GW2 for a month get bored with it move back to their sub based game, then drop by every month to check on new patches and expansions. Also GW2 can be played like CoD. You go online do 10-15 matches of competitive PvP, feel good about your perfomance or dissapointed at your skill and log off. Since no gear grinding you never have any pressure to keep up with your guild mates or other players. GW2 will provide the best PvP no doubt about that. Specially if you like competitive gameplay like me. A must 2 hours of pvp dedication everyday to get better.
Currently Playing: SSFIV AE, SFxTekken, SWTOR, WoW. Waiting for: GW2, Resident Evil 6.
Originally posted by Loke666 I don't see why people wont play both... GW2 wont be so grindy as many other MMOs so it will be an excellent alt game for someone who needs a break at times from their other game (like TOR). GW2s B2P method helps of course, you will only have to pay one monthly fee. Both games have their strenghts and weaknesses. If you want to raid for gear then TOR is the right game, while GW2s massive PvP is at another level. So why choose?
Some people just wont have the time to invest to play both.
Originally posted by Sector13 Originally posted by Loke666 I don't see why people wont play both... GW2 wont be so grindy as many other MMOs so it will be an excellent alt game for someone who needs a break at times from their other game (like TOR). GW2s B2P method helps of course, you will only have to pay one monthly fee. Both games have their strenghts and weaknesses. If you want to raid for gear then TOR is the right game, while GW2s massive PvP is at another level. So why choose?
I don't see many casuals leave WoW or their current game of choice for GW2 to be honest with you. GW 2 might not be even discussed if it was p2p. Its only advantage is b2p. Also if TSW delivers then who knows. GW2 might become the ultimate e-sports game though after WoW and SC2. The only reason i am getting GW2 is beacause of competitive PvP. IMO GW2 will be a game for PvP lovers and might be ultimate "side game" for current sub paying players.
I saw a poll on this website and you would be surprised how many people actually play 2 MMOS at the same time. If people can afford to play 2 to 3 games on their consoles i am sure playing 2 MMOS is not such a big deal as people make it out to be.
You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty -- Mahatma Gandhi
Im going to play both
im going to play both aswell i like both fantasy and sci-fiction themes and games.
i wanted just to say i dont think this both games can be competition to each other because they are two total different enviroment and two totally different genre games.
its like someone would say apples and banans are same and they are competition to each other, or hamburger and doner kebap are same.
Originally posted by Shivam Originally posted by Sector13 Originally posted by Loke666 I don't see why people wont play both... GW2 wont be so grindy as many other MMOs so it will be an excellent alt game for someone who needs a break at times from their other game (like TOR). GW2s B2P method helps of course, you will only have to pay one monthly fee. Both games have their strenghts and weaknesses. If you want to raid for gear then TOR is the right game, while GW2s massive PvP is at another level. So why choose?
exactly man. Since most sub based games are themepark which only consists of raiding every week and PvP. You only really do have to play 3-4 times a week for several hours. More if you are competing for pride. But most people don't. So the other 3-4 days you can play GW 2 lol. Even if you work all week (with normal 9-5) you will still get time to raid at night and weekends are there for you to play GW2. You got kids and family? no time to play only then i can see you might have a tighter schedule but those people most likely won't even pick up a new since they are already having fun playing with their friends in the sub MMO.
I don't see Guild Wars 2 competeing with SW:TOR. Both of these games target different audiances. There will be a few that will play both, which is fine.
If they really wanted to compete with GW2, the first thing they'd need to do is ditch the sub. Going Buy2Play would have made a lot more sense for what basically plays like a SPG with some MMO features anyway. That would be the best way to really compete with GW2.
I doubt they'd want to really compete with GW2 however.
Originally posted by MMOExposed What's wrong with the game taking a few ideas from other MMO? WoW did this all the time. What's original in WoW?
If you are talking about what WoW did originally unlike other MMOs at the time, it would be the solo quest grind that now every MMO imitates.
I think it would be good if both developers took ideas from each other. From what I've seen, the presentation of the main story in SWTOR is superior to the one in GW2 and the presentation of the world story (background story and the story of a constantly evolving world) is superior in GW2.
I also think that there are some things in SWTOR that could be done in order to make professions less dependant on each other without hurting teamwork. However there are a lot of players who actually like set roles and fixed encounters. In GW2 combat can get very chaotic, because everyone is able to swtich roles (not only the players, but also the mobs), which means it could get unpredictable.
You may argue that predictable encounters are not fun, but that's how game designers actually balance huge gaps in power levels between monsters and players. If a mob in WoW or any traditional mmo was to break aggro and go after your support everytime, the fight would soon be over. Without this design of prediction, Blizzard or in this case BW would need to redesign every boss encounter in the game. Hence boss mobs in GW2 won't be that much more powerful in GW2, but making mistakes will still cost you.
It doesn't matter which design is better, but which design actually makes sense in the context of game mechanics. The game mechanics in SWTOR may be old, but they are known for working correctly and without fault. You can't just add game mechanics from GW2 to SWTOR without changing rules of the game or you will destroy the game entirely.
Regarding the other points, I think it would be good, if not only SWTOR but other games aswell got more ad-hoc group friendly and social. After all, MMORGPs are or should be the pinnacle of social interaction.
Originally posted by KidonThat is almost like saying that BF3 is better than MW3 because it as new stuff graphics etc... it doenst matter u have to realize that it doenst matter, WOW > the rest of the mmo's many came and went had awsome features, but that doesnt matter, SWTOR >gw because it is STAR WARS, MW3 did more money then AVATAR for the love of GOD can u understand now, it doesnt matter if GW will bring anything new : , i know you wont understand the diference even if i paint it on your bedroom wall, but it is a fact Merchandising > new features game etc..., i play BF3 i always liked the game, but quantity = quality in the overall picture of the gaming industry so MW3 is way better(atleast that is what people will always remenber and not the bf3 graphics etc), dont know what else to say, GW will be like a grain of sand in the SWTOR world that is just how little it is compared .
To my surprise, you actually made a valid point. Unfortunately, you aren't nearly articulate enough for anyone to understand what it is, so I'll lend a hand.
What Kidon is trying to explain (I think) is that in the end, what matters is the amount of money your game makes. What he means by "quantity = quality" is that quality is irrelevant and the only thing that matters is NUMBERS, NUMBERS, NUMBERS. He is trying to say that quantity replaces quality.
Battlefield 3 might be a superior game to Modern Warfare 3 when you consider its quality, but MW3 has been more successful. Why? Marketing. If you can market your game it will do better.
This is why SWTOR is doing so well right now. It's a STAR WARS game by BIOWARE. Both of those names have a huge amount of hype on their own. Why do you think Bioware lifted so many features strait out of WoW? Because they don't really matter. They wouldn't affect sales. Creating completely original mechanics would be too costly when you consider the minimal gain they'd provide and the risk they create.
Games mechanically superior to both WoW and SWTOR may have come out in recent years, but they were ignored because they just didn't have enough hype, and I don't mean hype as it exists on this site. I mean hype in the outside world. How long do you think it would take before you found someone on any college campus who hasn't heard of Warcraft or Star Wars? What about Guild Wars? Blizzard? Bioware? ArenaNet?
Kidon's argument is that GW2 can't compete with SWTOR because Star Wars is a household name, but realistically, not a lot of people know what Guild Wars even is. He also points out that even though MW3 has sold more (quantity) than BF3, he prefers (quality) BF3. GW2 may very easily be a better game than SWTOR in countless ways, but will it be able to compete?
The answer to that question depends on what you consider competition, which I think most of this thread is about, as well as where I depart from Kidon's position. In my opinion, GW2 isn't in competition with SWTOR any more than Skyrim is. It won't sell better, and it might never make as much money, but it'll be a success and a hell of a lot of fun, and I believe I and a lot of other will be playing it for years to come. (I've been playing TF2 since it came out. Playing a B2P game for years is not a foreign concept to me.)
Finally, in response to the OP, adding in these types of features wouldn't even be close to worth it, especially when you consider how easily they could go wrong. High cost, high risk, minimal gain.
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss
They are 2 very different games. Guild wars isn't really an MMORPG due to most of the game being instanced, your effectively playing on your own private server with select players. As guild wars 2 isn't subscription based it's not really competition, you can play both games for little extra cost.
Originally posted by Kidon Quality as to be payed for, if its free something is very wrong or it just sucks
Before you keep up with this crap there are a few very very simple things you need to learn/consider:
1) GW1 and GW2 are not FREE. You have to buy the game, there is just no monthly sub.
2) GW1 has received several expansions over the years and still gets updates, new events, etc. This is 6 (almost 7) years after its release and with no subscriptions. How many subscription games even still do updates? Most are barely getting around to fixing bugs, if they ever even bother.
3) GW1 has sold close to 7 million copies total, just under 2 million of those since 2008 (in comparison Rift hasnt sold even 1m since its release)
4) You keep mentioning 200k playerbase. List for me how many full blown MMOs have that large of a playerbase, especially 7 years after release. I bet you can only give me 1 game, possibly 2. Then consider that GW1 wasnt even a full MMO and GW2 will be.
5) They have already stated that along with the thousands of dynamic events already in place at launch they will also be adding in new events on a regular basis
6) Just take a look at the hype meter here on MMORPG.com. GW2 has held the #1 spot for IIRC nearly 2 years now (perhaps 1 1/2 years) and hasnt budged. SWTOR couldnt even touch it with its massive budget, Bioware, AND the freaking Star Wars IP behind it.
7) Do a little bit of research instead of just hating on something you know absolutely nothing about just because of some pathetic assumptions about "free" games, especially when the game youre talking about isnt free in the first place.
Originally posted by RizelStar Originally posted by yewsef I am not a GW2 hater and not a SWTOR fan... but you claim that GW2 eliminated the holy trinity and the game is not released yet. Question is... is the new class system GW2 is implementing good? Is it going to play bettrr than role-specific-class system? (regardless if it was a shallow and simplified "trinity" or a more complex class-role system). We need to know if the no-role system is actually a positive imprivement. Personally I am skeptical and I doubt it. I believe having specific classes doing specific role(s) is the way to go. I know WoW simplified it with Tank, Heal and DPS.... why copy WoW's lack if death? Developers should expand on features not reduce them. Unfortunately, a game released on 1999 had more roles than any of MMORPGs released afterwards (tank, puller, slowrr debuffer, support, CC, healer, DPS...etc).
After trying it out and witnessing it in purpose I am sorry but they did eliminate the holy trinity, it isn't "holy" any more, and there won't be any cases were people are saying "LFG need a healer for such and such."
The Holy Trinity is the most stupid idea ever. It was invented by Blizzard. It was never holy, it is not holy and it's stupid. Do you know what's more stupid? a No-Specific Class Role system. But I am open for everything and I will give GW2 a chance to convince me if they can pull it off.
For me I see Role-Specific Classes System the way to go for a game seeking to reach cooperative game play for PvE content. What WoW (and all the MMROPGs afterwards) did is reducing the gap of differences between classes. I want more Roles and not the stupid WoWish "Trinity". Classes should vary a lot and each player must play their role to over come a challenge; otherwise the PvE content will be boring and/or chaotic (in a bad way).
I am open for what GW2 claims to offer and I will see if it's going to be acceptable. Everytime such a system is claimed I get skeptical and every time I experience what I previously expected... which is, bad idea. It's good for PvP-Centric games, bad for a game that offers a lot of PvE content. But let me tell you something about GW 2 from what I read about this game... there are "embeded" roles that can be used for each class and it's really just an illusion of Role-less class system. But I hate to comment on something I didn't extensively test.
Oh, regarding LFG apparently you're like the majority of game designers; incompetant of having a proper solution for such a problem. City of Heroes (if you've played it) fixed this problem. Not for the fact that you really don't need any specific class (you don't need a healer, you don't need a tank, you don't need anything... for 90% of the content of the game) but also they fixed the ease to get a group rolling. However, CoH has Role-Specific-Class system.
Any combination of 2 or more class archtypes of CoH works. Like 2 scrappers, 1 defender and 2 controllers can work. 1 tank, 3 blasters and 1 controller can work. You can mix and match anything (except for having 8 of the same exact archtype... even that might work to be honest).
Just because EverQuest and other games failed to introduce the game content in a way where you can still have Roles and at the same time eliminate wanting/needing or waiting for specific Class doesn't mean it's not possible. Like I explained with my CoH example it IS possible.
Originally posted by NasherUKThey are 2 very different games. Guild wars isn't really an MMORPG due to most of the game being instanced, your effectively playing on your own private server with select players. As guild wars 2 isn't subscription based it's not really competition, you can play both games for little extra cost.
I don't think the first GW is trying to compete with SWTOR.
Nice post OP. You should either link or post this on the official forum.
However, for me, if they want to flesh out the game and add longetivity they must build on the PvP aspects. For one they should break away the bounty hounter and smuggler to a third faction for PvP and then add some interesting world PvP objectives.
The first will not happen but the second one could.
SWTOR has no chance!
Again, as the OP, this is not a SWTOR vs Guild wars battle. I have a personal choice and I choose the game with a few more listed and both demonstrated (played at PAX) features.
However, even if you are not switching to guild wars, like I suspect many will do, you will be effected. I chose to start this thread based on my wife attempting to play Rift the other night and seeing the barely lively servers, rifts everywhere, and the abandonment of our guild for SWTOR. And I thought, wow, this is going to happen to SWTOR.
If you wait until the game comes out to start implenting innovations, you will be sorely behind in the competition. And yes, I do see this as a competition. Sure, one game is free and the other isn't. But there are only 24 hours in the day, and the most important thing to an MMO producer other than money, is time. If people aren't playing your game, and your game depends on other people, your game is going to loose subscribers who are not even playing GW2, because there's no one to do flashpoints with, they can't find people for heroics and raids are going to empty.
My point, is to unbiased present 4 features that GW 2 has that SWTOR doesnt, and not duplicate those in SWTOR, but attempt to figure out a way for SWTOR to compete with these features.
I won't debate the value of the trinity system, or dynamic events. The trinity system's biggest flaw, whether you like it or not, is that it forces a playstyle that requires 3 types of players and prevents you from playing if you do not have these 3 components. Thus, you have to wait or set up schedules to play. This is a systematic flaw (not based on bias). With static content, the content offers no replay value pass its 1st attempt. Thus players who have been playing longer than other players are less likely to play with new players or players who have played less.
SWTOR's big flaw, again from an unbais point of view, is it's heavy instancing makes getting into a group more difficult. I play with my wife and gf all the time. I never have a problem, but I do understand others do. Autogrouping eliminates this complaint, and the less complaints and happier gamers, the less likely they will be looking for an alternative in 6 months.
SWTOR has a big emphasis on emersion, but it breaks the emersion in several places. From a story point of view, it breaks the suspension of belief that the biggest baddest boss is so stupid he is only going to attack the one guy not doing the most damage or healing. I've played tabletops for 30 years, (where role playing games were invented) in those games, the first person the boss will attack and kill is always the healer, then the guy who does the most damage. Once I've leveled my alt pass 20, i am going through the same adventures as a sith as my republi character with few changes other than the surface story.
Sure, Bioware can sit back, say we made a damn fine game and we have no worries aboug GW2, but I'm sure thats the approach Wow and Rift have taken.