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Should World Boss mobs be killable by 10/25?

pbowmanpbowman Dixon, KYPosts: 33Member

Hello, 

  I was just wondering what people think about World Mobs, such as Lich King or Deathwing being killed by 10 or 25 people.  These mobs broke the world, their the biggest and baddest thing around.  Thrall and Varian and all the rest couldn't take em, yet 10/25 people can take em down.

I remember in DAOC, in some dragon runs or epic armor runs we had almost 100 people.  We didn't ask to see their gear level or achievements, we banded together and fought the epic mobs.  Sometimes we wiped, but it was fun.  Same with relic raids or defending our relic, a call went out and people of all levels came to defend or go on raid.  It was fun, at least to me it was.

Personally, I think that world mobs should take the cooperation of the server.  Put out a call to the server, let anyone and everyone come to fight the creature that is trying to take over the world. 

This goes for any MMO, not just WoW, I just used them as an example.

This is just my opinion.

Thanks.

«1

Comments

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by pbowman

    Hello, 
      I was just wondering what people think about World Mobs, such as Lich King or Deathwing being killed by 10 or 25 people.  These mobs broke the world, their the biggest and baddest thing around.  Thrall and Varian and all the rest couldn't take em, yet 10/25 people can take em down.
    I remember in DAOC, in some dragon runs or epic armor runs we had almost 100 people.  We didn't ask to see their gear level or achievements, we banded together and fought the epic mobs.  Sometimes we wiped, but it was fun.  Same with relic raids or defending our relic, a call went out and people of all levels came to defend or go on raid.  It was fun, at least to me it was.
    Personally, I think that world mobs should take the cooperation of the server.  Put out a call to the server, let anyone and everyone come to fight the creature that is trying to take over the world. 
    This goes for any MMO, not just WoW, I just used them as an example.
    This is just my opinion.
    Thanks.

     

    No. Requiring 100 people are just bad design. 100 are hard to coordinate. Games have to design around players who have real lives.
  • Sector13Sector13 New Providence, PAPosts: 687Member

    Hogger, greatest world boss ever. lol

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by pbowman

    Hello, 

      I was just wondering what people think about World Mobs, such as Lich King or Deathwing being killed by 10 or 25 people.  These mobs broke the world, their the biggest and baddest thing around.  Thrall and Varian and all the rest couldn't take em, yet 10/25 people can take em down.

    I remember in DAOC, in some dragon runs or epic armor runs we had almost 100 people.  We didn't ask to see their gear level or achievements, we banded together and fought the epic mobs.  Sometimes we wiped, but it was fun.  Same with relic raids or defending our relic, a call went out and people of all levels came to defend or go on raid.  It was fun, at least to me it was.

    Personally, I think that world mobs should take the cooperation of the server.  Put out a call to the server, let anyone and everyone come to fight the creature that is trying to take over the world. 

    This goes for any MMO, not just WoW, I just used them as an example.

    This is just my opinion.

    Thanks.

    God forbid a WoW player has to group with more than 24 other players to achieve a high end gameplay goal.

  • TorikTorik London, ONPosts: 2,343Member Uncommon

    The problem with these fights is not the requirement on the number of players but the fact that the fights are part of a raid grind.  They are meant to be repeated every week by a dedicated group of raiders and that sucks most of the 'epicness' out of them. 

    If these fights were more casual affairs that only awarded achievements and/or titles they could require 100+ players.  Once a month someone on a server would try to organize a raid for those and people would come to the fight because it would be a rare social event.   They would be willing to put a lot of time and effort into it because it would be something special to remember.

    If you make these fights regular repeatable events then the scale does not matter and it becomes the equivalent of a daily quest.  It's fun to do the first few tiems and then you just want to get it out of the way.  It's like having a Christmas parade every week.  After the first few, people will lose interest and mostly care about the traffic jams it causes.

     

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,668Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Torik

    The problem with these fights is not the requirement on the number of players but the fact that the fights are part of a raid grind.  They are meant to be repeated every week by a dedicated group of raiders and that sucks most of the 'epicness' out of them. 

    If these fights were more casual affairs that only awarded achievements and/or titles they could require 100+ players.  Once a month someone on a server would try to organize a raid for those and people would come to the fight because it would be a rare social event.   They would be willing to put a lot of time and effort into it because it would be something special to remember.

    If you make these fights regular repeatable events then the scale does not matter and it becomes the equivalent of a daily quest.  It's fun to do the first few tiems and then you just want to get it out of the way.  It's like having a Christmas parade every week.  After the first few, people will lose interest and mostly care about the traffic jams it causes.

     

    image

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
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  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by Torik

    The problem with these fights is not the requirement on the number of players but the fact that the fights are part of a raid grind.  They are meant to be repeated every week by a dedicated group of raiders and that sucks most of the 'epicness' out of them. 

    If these fights were more casual affairs that only awarded achievements and/or titles they could require 100+ players.  Once a month someone on a server would try to organize a raid for those and people would come to the fight because it would be a rare social event.   They would be willing to put a lot of time and effort into it because it would be something special to remember.

    If you make these fights regular repeatable events then the scale does not matter and it becomes the equivalent of a daily quest.  It's fun to do the first few tiems and then you just want to get it out of the way.  It's like having a Christmas parade every week.  After the first few, people will lose interest and mostly care about the traffic jams it causes.

     

    image

    OMG I agree with both Torik and Loko at once.

  • drago6817drago6817 Quohog, DEPosts: 18Member

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by pbowman

    Hello, 

      I was just wondering what people think about World Mobs, such as Lich King or Deathwing being killed by 10 or 25 people.  These mobs broke the world, their the biggest and baddest thing around.  Thrall and Varian and all the rest couldn't take em, yet 10/25 people can take em down.

    I remember in DAOC, in some dragon runs or epic armor runs we had almost 100 people.  We didn't ask to see their gear level or achievements, we banded together and fought the epic mobs.  Sometimes we wiped, but it was fun.  Same with relic raids or defending our relic, a call went out and people of all levels came to defend or go on raid.  It was fun, at least to me it was.

    Personally, I think that world mobs should take the cooperation of the server.  Put out a call to the server, let anyone and everyone come to fight the creature that is trying to take over the world. 

    This goes for any MMO, not just WoW, I just used them as an example.

    This is just my opinion.

    Thanks.

     

    No. Requiring 100 people are just bad design. 100 are hard to coordinate. Games have to design around players who have real lives.

     

     

    This is a major problem in MMo's today imho, that they are designed as games first with these sorts of assumptions in place instead of as worlds.

     

    I think deathwing should wipe you no matter how many friends you bring. Big scary dragons who destroyed half the world =/= loot slot machine.

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    The problem with massive world bosses is that once you have a hundred people on screen at once, you start loosing players  with lower-end machines or cause the server hamsters to have heart attacks.

    I've always enjoyed wandering across random out-of-level encounters and sizing up if I want to tackle them or answer a zone-wide alarm or world event.  However, I generally don't enjoy world bosses because it's sheer chaos and brings me into contact with all the powergamers, exploiters and hard-core rare-seekers who I generally try to avoid.

    But in principle, I've always felt that a game should always have bosses that have never been defeated that sit there as mountains to climb.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,743Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Cuathon

    Originally posted by Loktofeit


    Originally posted by Torik

    The problem with these fights is not the requirement on the number of players but the fact that the fights are part of a raid grind.  They are meant to be repeated every week by a dedicated group of raiders and that sucks most of the 'epicness' out of them. 

    If these fights were more casual affairs that only awarded achievements and/or titles they could require 100+ players.  Once a month someone on a server would try to organize a raid for those and people would come to the fight because it would be a rare social event.   They would be willing to put a lot of time and effort into it because it would be something special to remember.

    If you make these fights regular repeatable events then the scale does not matter and it becomes the equivalent of a daily quest.  It's fun to do the first few tiems and then you just want to get it out of the way.  It's like having a Christmas parade every week.  After the first few, people will lose interest and mostly care about the traffic jams it causes.

     

    image

    OMG I agree with both Torik and Loko at once.

    They already have that though.  Faction bosses work exactly like that.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,743Member Uncommon

    No particular reason bosses need to even require 10 players.

    The epicness of a fight doesn't come from massing a bunch of players, it comes from the presentation of the fight itself.

    You need 4-6 players to get the feeling of team gameplay.  Additional players beyond that doesn't contribute much to the sensation of being part of a team, but definitely does increase the amount of hassle and tedium, and dilutes my personal contribution to the point of being pretty meaningless.

    While I enjoy large-scale balanced-team PVP (Planetside), I really wouldn't mind if I never raided again in PVE-focused games (and I only play MMORPGs for PVE.)

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    No particular reason bosses need to even require 10 players.

    The epicness of a fight doesn't come from massing a bunch of players, it comes from the presentation of the fight itself.

    You need 4-6 players to get the feeling of team gameplay.  Additional players beyond that doesn't contribute much to the sensation of being part of a team, but definitely does increase the amount of hassle and tedium, and dilutes my personal contribution to the point of being pretty meaningless.

    While I enjoy large-scale balanced-team PVP (Planetside), I really wouldn't mind if I never raided again in PVE-focused games (and I only play MMORPGs for PVE.)

    Yes we get it, mmos should be about you you you and how you did the work to save the world. With your 1337 skillz and evolution given twitch powers of awesome. You talk about stories in RPGs but all the raid content has fuck all to do with the Warcraft lore. Lets kill a giant world destroying dragon or powerful lich with 6 people. That makes sense.

  • VigilianceVigiliance Sacramento, CAPosts: 213Member

    Originally posted by Torik

    The problem with these fights is not the requirement on the number of players but the fact that the fights are part of a raid grind.  They are meant to be repeated every week by a dedicated group of raiders and that sucks most of the 'epicness' out of them. 

    If these fights were more casual affairs that only awarded achievements and/or titles they could require 100+ players.  Once a month someone on a server would try to organize a raid for those and people would come to the fight because it would be a rare social event.   They would be willing to put a lot of time and effort into it because it would be something special to remember.

    If you make these fights regular repeatable events then the scale does not matter and it becomes the equivalent of a daily quest.  It's fun to do the first few tiems and then you just want to get it out of the way.  It's like having a Christmas parade every week.  After the first few, people will lose interest and mostly care about the traffic jams it causes.

     

    Agreed, and these small selective raids kill any form of server community there could be. People say they want server community but we just create little small "clics" called guilds and they are completely self sufficient, so why would they even venture away from them?

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,743Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Cuathon

    Yes we get it, mmos should be about you you you and how you did the work to save the world. With your 1337 skillz and evolution given twitch powers of awesome. You talk about stories in RPGs but all the raid content has fuck all to do with the Warcraft lore. Lets kill a giant world destroying dragon or powerful lich with 6 people. That makes sense.

    Or spun the correct way: MMOs shouldn't be about how meaningless you are.

    Sometimes when people watch a movie, say Lord of the Rings, they say "they should make a game out of this!"  When they say that, what they really want is to act out the heroics of Legolas, Aragorn, Gandalf, etc.  What they aren't saying is "I want to be the crappy nameless soldier who gets his ass kicked."

    It's not terrible for a game to not be about heroics -- Skyrim manages alright -- but it's clearly a strongly desired form of entertainment to act out heroics.

    Also I have no clue where your twitch skill comment came from. RPGs by definition aren't twitch heavy, but they should definitely be tactics heavy and reward skillful play.  Unless a game is a relaxation activity like FarmVille, it strongly needs to reward the player's presence -- to make their interactions meaningful.  Otherwise why not just watch a movie if the player's interactions aren't important?

    Little confused on your random belligerance towards story too, given that most WOW raids actually have a lot to do with story and yet there's no reason (beyond your sense of entitlement, dictating what the genre should or shouldn't be) as to why it absolutely has to require more than 6 people to defeat these mobs.  Obviously people have long enjoyed solo games about defeating world-threatening bosses, so clearly virtually nobody shares your insistence that defeating a world-threatening boss should require 40+ players.

    Remember: games are made to entertain people.  They don't care about fitting your arbitrary definition of what the genre should or shouldn't be.  They exist to entertain.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • Angier2758Angier2758 Mt. Prospect, ILPosts: 1,011Member

    Originally posted by pbowman

    Hello, 

      I was just wondering what people think about World Mobs, such as Lich King or Deathwing being killed by 10 or 25 people.  These mobs broke the world, their the biggest and baddest thing around.  Thrall and Varian and all the rest couldn't take em, yet 10/25 people can take em down.

    I remember in DAOC, in some dragon runs or epic armor runs we had almost 100 people.  We didn't ask to see their gear level or achievements, we banded together and fought the epic mobs.  Sometimes we wiped, but it was fun.  Same with relic raids or defending our relic, a call went out and people of all levels came to defend or go on raid.  It was fun, at least to me it was.

    Personally, I think that world mobs should take the cooperation of the server.  Put out a call to the server, let anyone and everyone come to fight the creature that is trying to take over the world. 

    This goes for any MMO, not just WoW, I just used them as an example.

    This is just my opinion.

    Thanks.

    I don't know if you want to use DAoC as an example... I believe (it was awhile ago) that DAoC had a mechanic that the content became easier with more people(either dmg or chance to hit went up).   I know this because I was an animist and my job was to cheese this number by summoning lots of weak turrets....

  • someforumguysomeforumguy HomePosts: 3,540Member Uncommon

    I like the part where a call went out and ppl from all levels came to defend or attack. Last time I experienced this was in Vanguard not long after its release. Some griffon mob that tended to roam high above several quest areas and sometimes came down to attack players or other mobs and when it was sighted or when some player was freaking out about it in chat. And some huge kind of viking looking giant.

    I dont have specific requirements for how tough it should be to kill the mob though. Seems kind of arbitrary to me. I just like wandering bad ass mobs that you can gang up to.

  • BlackUhuruBlackUhuru Of Angels, CAPosts: 770Member

    Originally posted by pbowman

    Hello, 

      I was just wondering what people think about World Mobs, such as Lich King or Deathwing being killed by 10 or 25 people.  These mobs broke the world, their the biggest and baddest thing around.  Thrall and Varian and all the rest couldn't take em, yet 10/25 people can take em down.

    I remember in DAOC, in some dragon runs or epic armor runs we had almost 100 people.  We didn't ask to see their gear level or achievements, we banded together and fought the epic mobs.  Sometimes we wiped, but it was fun.  Same with relic raids or defending our relic, a call went out and people of all levels came to defend or go on raid.  It was fun, at least to me it was.

    Personally, I think that world mobs should take the cooperation of the server.  Put out a call to the server, let anyone and everyone come to fight the creature that is trying to take over the world. 

    This goes for any MMO, not just WoW, I just used them as an example.

    This is just my opinion.

    Thanks.

    Well for instance in SWTOR after the 5th day of release there are guilds that have cleared End Game Hard mode Raids 5/5.

     

    So considering how terribly dumbed down games are now i wouldn't expect to see a challenge again in mmo's for awhile, including world bosses.

     

    Do i agree with you? Yes

    "It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,476Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Torik

    The problem with these fights is not the requirement on the number of players but the fact that the fights are part of a raid grind.  They are meant to be repeated every week by a dedicated group of raiders and that sucks most of the 'epicness' out of them. 

    If these fights were more casual affairs that only awarded achievements and/or titles they could require 100+ players.  Once a month someone on a server would try to organize a raid for those and people would come to the fight because it would be a rare social event.   They would be willing to put a lot of time and effort into it because it would be something special to remember.

    If you make these fights regular repeatable events then the scale does not matter and it becomes the equivalent of a daily quest.  It's fun to do the first few tiems and then you just want to get it out of the way.  It's like having a Christmas parade every week.  After the first few, people will lose interest and mostly care about the traffic jams it causes.

     

    Good points. 

    How about instead of having a single T-1 endgame raid instance, you make ten T-1 endgame raid instance which you would normally run each instance once.   Now make each instance take some good amount of time to complete and when you finish all ten T-1 raids, you are geared up for the next raid level.

  • Moaky07Moaky07 Flushing, MIPosts: 2,096Member

    I say pizz on those huge raid numbers.

     

    Me and the gonna be ex wife raided for a couple of yrs in EQ(during time frame of PoP/GoD era like 04). Our guild had to have everyone online to take down stuff, and when folks didnt show for our 3 weekly raids, shit usually hit the fan sometime during the night.

     

    Which it isnt like wiping in EQ didnt happen enough as it was. Some nights were just total wastes, not to mention all the lvling to make back some exp(although 96% rezzes sure did help).

     

    IMO raiding should be for a person, and like 5 to 10 of their friends. When I say raid, I mean content that is going to take a few hrs to complete. When you get to the end, you guys get your just reward.

    Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by drago6817

    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Originally posted by pbowman

    Hello, 

      I was just wondering what people think about World Mobs, such as Lich King or Deathwing being killed by 10 or 25 people.  These mobs broke the world, their the biggest and baddest thing around.  Thrall and Varian and all the rest couldn't take em, yet 10/25 people can take em down.

    I remember in DAOC, in some dragon runs or epic armor runs we had almost 100 people.  We didn't ask to see their gear level or achievements, we banded together and fought the epic mobs.  Sometimes we wiped, but it was fun.  Same with relic raids or defending our relic, a call went out and people of all levels came to defend or go on raid.  It was fun, at least to me it was.

    Personally, I think that world mobs should take the cooperation of the server.  Put out a call to the server, let anyone and everyone come to fight the creature that is trying to take over the world. 

    This goes for any MMO, not just WoW, I just used them as an example.

    This is just my opinion.

    Thanks.

     

    No. Requiring 100 people are just bad design. 100 are hard to coordinate. Games have to design around players who have real lives.

     

     

    This is a major problem in MMo's today imho, that they are designed as games first with these sorts of assumptions in place instead of as worlds.

     

    I think deathwing should wipe you no matter how many friends you bring. Big scary dragons who destroyed half the world =/= loot slot machine.



    mmorgG ... the G stands for "game". Of course they are game first. And the assumption is quite correct if you look at reality. It is just impossible to coordinate 100 people.

    I think deathwing is just great where it is now. 3 difficulties and everyone has a chance to down it. I really dont want to play a game that i know 99.99999% of the time i am going to lose ... i.e. ... sunwell. Thank god blizz is better designers and know how players tick, instead of listening to extreme, minority opinions on websites.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by BlackUhuru

    Originally posted by pbowman

    Hello, 

      I was just wondering what people think about World Mobs, such as Lich King or Deathwing being killed by 10 or 25 people.  These mobs broke the world, their the biggest and baddest thing around.  Thrall and Varian and all the rest couldn't take em, yet 10/25 people can take em down.

    I remember in DAOC, in some dragon runs or epic armor runs we had almost 100 people.  We didn't ask to see their gear level or achievements, we banded together and fought the epic mobs.  Sometimes we wiped, but it was fun.  Same with relic raids or defending our relic, a call went out and people of all levels came to defend or go on raid.  It was fun, at least to me it was.

    Personally, I think that world mobs should take the cooperation of the server.  Put out a call to the server, let anyone and everyone come to fight the creature that is trying to take over the world. 

    This goes for any MMO, not just WoW, I just used them as an example.

    This is just my opinion.

    Thanks.

    Well for instance in SWTOR after the 5th day of release there are guilds that have cleared End Game Hard mode Raids 5/5.

     

    So considering how terribly dumbed down games are now i wouldn't expect to see a challenge again in mmo's for awhile, including world bosses.

     

    Do i agree with you? Yes



    you used some no-life 24/7 guilds as measurement of how difficult a game is????

    99.999% of the players never clear hardmode raid content. That is why blizz put in lfr. That matters a lot more. I do not want my MMO has content that i will never see (i.e. Sunwell during BC). That is just dumb on developers part to spend resources to make stuff only 1% of the players will see.

    Current difficulty in MMO is great. Most people get to do LFR, some normal mode raiding and a few percentage hard mode raiding.

    Use WOW as an example. Go check mmo-champion.com. Only a few guilds have clear hard mode DS 25, and none on 10. So we are talking at most low hundreds of people, OUT OF MILLIONS that have done that content. Less than 0.01% of the player base. Now you tell me that is not hard. Have you clear it in hard mode?

  • MikeBMikeB MMORPG.com Community Manager Queens, NYPosts: 5,719Administrator Uncommon

    We've had to remove a significant amount of posts here -- enough posts to usually warrant the thread being locked for going completely off the rails, but I'm going to give this one more chance. This thread is not about discussing what is or is not an MMO, please stick to the original topic. Thanks!

    Michael "MikeB" Bitton
    Community Manager
    Twitter: @eMikeB

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Back to topic.

    The answer is yes. The most popular mmo on the planet reduces raid requirements from 40 to 25. There is a good reason for it.

    Asking players to coordinate large groups is just not conducive to fun.
  • drbaltazardrbaltazar drummondville, QCPosts: 7,987Member

    i dont mind a high number of player req but it should be same as a 5 player pug group,like the server assemble 100 player for the even then once its done it send you guys to whatever stuff you want to accomplish!

  • kalmahkalmah Colorado Springs, COPosts: 47Member

    Originally posted by maplestone

    But in principle, I've always felt that a game should always have bosses that have never been defeated that sit there as mountains to climb.

    Agreed, I think EQ and know DAoC had some mobs that weren't killed until much later in the game. Fights like this often would get multiple guilds together trying to defeat said mob. It can really add to the community, immersion, and epicness of a game.

    Porn has voice acting, who doesn't skip it?

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,992Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by pbowman

    Hello, 

      I was just wondering what people think about World Mobs, such as Lich King or Deathwing being killed by 10 or 25 people.  These mobs broke the world, their the biggest and baddest thing around.  Thrall and Varian and all the rest couldn't take em, yet 10/25 people can take em down.

    I remember in DAOC, in some dragon runs or epic armor runs we had almost 100 people.  We didn't ask to see their gear level or achievements, we banded together and fought the epic mobs.  Sometimes we wiped, but it was fun.  Same with relic raids or defending our relic, a call went out and people of all levels came to defend or go on raid.  It was fun, at least to me it was.

    Personally, I think that world mobs should take the cooperation of the server.  Put out a call to the server, let anyone and everyone come to fight the creature that is trying to take over the world. 

    This goes for any MMO, not just WoW, I just used them as an example.

    This is just my opinion.

    Thanks.

    No. Large world bosses should scale, not have a specific number of players needed.

    I spent 5+ years in EQ2 BTW which do have open world raid bosses, it is fun that some harder bosses are out there but they should still scale from say 10 to 50 or even 20 to 100 in the case of the really huge ones.

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