The amusing this (and this is probably part of his reasoning), is that MMOs were getting criticized for the same issues before TOR came out, but now that it's released it's magically 'okay' and people who still don't think it's okay are now 'just haters'.
this is a huge point.. I see many issues pop up that have been talked about for years and so many people here just say either it will be added eventually or it doesn't matter to them.. obviously these things have been issues for years and why bioware decided to not listen to several of them is beyond me...
THIS, so much this. This is why so many of us are frustrated.
I've seen people defend TOR for so many ridiculous reasons...especially in the area of BGs where I find it to be pretty lacking. My favorite argument that people make is that since TOR is a real "RPG," it doesn't have to be "fair" or "balanced" in PvP like other games. And it doesn't need to offer things like "dual spec" because it doesn't make sense that your character could just switch his skills. It's all about the "story" and "character development," everything else should matter less.
These arguments would be mildy valid if it wasn't for the fact that SWTOR already has so many unrealistic conceits from copying the WoW model. I mean, if I have to hit a dude in a t-shirt 30 times with a LIGHTSABER to kill him, then all bets are off.
THIS, so much this. This is why so many of us are frustrated.
I've seen people defend TOR for so many ridiculous reasons...especially in the area of BGs where I find it to be pretty lacking. My favorite argument that people make is that since TOR is a real "RPG," it doesn't have to be "fair" or "balanced" in PvP like other games. And it doesn't need to offer things like "dual spec" because it doesn't make sense that your character could just switch his skills. It's all about the "story" and "character development," everything else should matter less.
These arguments would be mildy valid if it wasn't for the fact that SWTOR already has so many unrealistic conceits from copying the WoW model. I mean, if I have to hit a dude in a t-shirt 30 times with a LIGHTSABER to kill him, then all bets are off.
Many do not expect balance in an MMO, at least when it comes to class v class or faction v faction. I certainly don't our guild has always preferred the underdog side anyway, more PVP to be found.
If you're complaining about the system in place that levels you up for PVP, I agree, yet really don't care as I won't be doing BG's anyway.
Why would a game need to offer dual spec? I understand wanting the option, yet don't understand demanding the option.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
THIS, so much this. This is why so many of us are frustrated.
I've seen people defend TOR for so many ridiculous reasons...especially in the area of BGs where I find it to be pretty lacking. My favorite argument that people make is that since TOR is a real "RPG," it doesn't have to be "fair" or "balanced" in PvP like other games. And it doesn't need to offer things like "dual spec" because it doesn't make sense that your character could just switch his skills. It's all about the "story" and "character development," everything else should matter less.
These arguments would be mildy valid if it wasn't for the fact that SWTOR already has so many unrealistic conceits from copying the WoW model. I mean, if I have to hit a dude in a t-shirt 30 times with a LIGHTSABER to kill him, then all bets are off.
Many do not expect balance in an MMO, at least when it comes to class v class or faction v faction. I certainly don't our guild has always preferred the underdog side anyway, more PVP to be found.
If you're complaining about the system in place that levels you up for PVP, I agree, yet really don't care as I won't be doing BG's anyway.
Why would a game need to offer dual spec? I understand wanting the option, yet don't understand demanding the option.
Basically just expectations.
SWTOR has talent trees, most modern games with talent trees (or something like them) allow you to switch between them so you can play different roles effectively with one character. It gives you more variety of play, and people have begun to (rightly) expect this option.
On a practical level, dual specs also make it MUCH easier to find a healer for dungeons and crap. Most healers don't like being specced in heal while they solo because it's inefficient, and respeccing can be expensive.
EDIT: And as for balance...I'm sure "many" don't expect balance, but "many" do expect balance as well . I mean, no one likes to play a gimped class ESPECIALLY in PvP. Imbalances are typically the root of issues like "FOTM" classes.
Actually, I've never talked to a person that did a lot of PvP and didn't care about balance.
DOUBLE EDIT:
ANother thing I wanted to add, is that this is why I think it's dangerous for a dev to make their game too similar to WoW. It opens it up to comparison with EVERY aspect of WoW, and if the new game falls short in any field, the players won't be happy.
Dual spec is a great example of this. It's only an issue because SWTOR has a similar talent tree setup to WoW.
THIS, so much this. This is why so many of us are frustrated.
I've seen people defend TOR for so many ridiculous reasons...especially in the area of BGs where I find it to be pretty lacking. My favorite argument that people make is that since TOR is a real "RPG," it doesn't have to be "fair" or "balanced" in PvP like other games. And it doesn't need to offer things like "dual spec" because it doesn't make sense that your character could just switch his skills. It's all about the "story" and "character development," everything else should matter less.
These arguments would be mildy valid if it wasn't for the fact that SWTOR already has so many unrealistic conceits from copying the WoW model. I mean, if I have to hit a dude in a t-shirt 30 times with a LIGHTSABER to kill him, then all bets are off.
Many do not expect balance in an MMO, at least when it comes to class v class or faction v faction. I certainly don't our guild has always preferred the underdog side anyway, more PVP to be found.
If you're complaining about the system in place that levels you up for PVP, I agree, yet really don't care as I won't be doing BG's anyway.
Why would a game need to offer dual spec? I understand wanting the option, yet don't understand demanding the option.
Basically just expectations.
SWTOR has talent trees, most modern games with talent trees (or something like them) allow you to switch between them so you can play different roles effectively with one character. It gives you more variety of play, and people have begun to (rightly) expect this option.
On a practical level, dual specs also make it MUCH easier to find a healer for dungeons and crap. Most healers don't like being specced in heal while they solo because it's inefficient, and respeccing can be expensive.
I guess that makes sense, you'll have to forgive me I'm a little unfamiliar with Themepark nuances and normalities.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
THIS, so much this. This is why so many of us are frustrated.
I've seen people defend TOR for so many ridiculous reasons...especially in the area of BGs where I find it to be pretty lacking. My favorite argument that people make is that since TOR is a real "RPG," it doesn't have to be "fair" or "balanced" in PvP like other games. And it doesn't need to offer things like "dual spec" because it doesn't make sense that your character could just switch his skills. It's all about the "story" and "character development," everything else should matter less.
These arguments would be mildy valid if it wasn't for the fact that SWTOR already has so many unrealistic conceits from copying the WoW model. I mean, if I have to hit a dude in a t-shirt 30 times with a LIGHTSABER to kill him, then all bets are off.
Many do not expect balance in an MMO, at least when it comes to class v class or faction v faction. I certainly don't our guild has always preferred the underdog side anyway, more PVP to be found.
If you're complaining about the system in place that levels you up for PVP, I agree, yet really don't care as I won't be doing BG's anyway.
Why would a game need to offer dual spec? I understand wanting the option, yet don't understand demanding the option.
Basically just expectations.
SWTOR has talent trees, most modern games with talent trees (or something like them) allow you to switch between them so you can play different roles effectively with one character. It gives you more variety of play, and people have begun to (rightly) expect this option.
On a practical level, dual specs also make it MUCH easier to find a healer for dungeons and crap. Most healers don't like being specced in heal while they solo because it's inefficient, and respeccing can be expensive.
I guess that makes sense, you'll have to forgive me I'm a little unfamiliar with Themepark nuances and normalities.
Ah yeah I see. As for me, after playing Rift and WoW where you can switch your spec, I really miss having the option in SWTOR.
THIS, so much this. This is why so many of us are frustrated.
I've seen people defend TOR for so many ridiculous reasons...especially in the area of BGs where I find it to be pretty lacking. My favorite argument that people make is that since TOR is a real "RPG," it doesn't have to be "fair" or "balanced" in PvP like other games. And it doesn't need to offer things like "dual spec" because it doesn't make sense that your character could just switch his skills. It's all about the "story" and "character development," everything else should matter less.
These arguments would be mildy valid if it wasn't for the fact that SWTOR already has so many unrealistic conceits from copying the WoW model. I mean, if I have to hit a dude in a t-shirt 30 times with a LIGHTSABER to kill him, then all bets are off.
Many do not expect balance in an MMO, at least when it comes to class v class or faction v faction. I certainly don't our guild has always preferred the underdog side anyway, more PVP to be found.
If you're complaining about the system in place that levels you up for PVP, I agree, yet really don't care as I won't be doing BG's anyway.
Why would a game need to offer dual spec? I understand wanting the option, yet don't understand demanding the option.
There is no underdog side. Both factions have identical classes, just reskinned. Hence faction vs faction is perfectly balanced.
Dual spec is coming soon, Bioware has already announced it. Not that any spec is particularly weak in PvP, unless you mean 1 vs 1, but thats always been stupid PvP anyway. What matters is how you work in a group.
THIS, so much this. This is why so many of us are frustrated.
I've seen people defend TOR for so many ridiculous reasons...especially in the area of BGs where I find it to be pretty lacking. My favorite argument that people make is that since TOR is a real "RPG," it doesn't have to be "fair" or "balanced" in PvP like other games. And it doesn't need to offer things like "dual spec" because it doesn't make sense that your character could just switch his skills. It's all about the "story" and "character development," everything else should matter less.
These arguments would be mildy valid if it wasn't for the fact that SWTOR already has so many unrealistic conceits from copying the WoW model. I mean, if I have to hit a dude in a t-shirt 30 times with a LIGHTSABER to kill him, then all bets are off.
Many do not expect balance in an MMO, at least when it comes to class v class or faction v faction. I certainly don't our guild has always preferred the underdog side anyway, more PVP to be found.
If you're complaining about the system in place that levels you up for PVP, I agree, yet really don't care as I won't be doing BG's anyway.
Why would a game need to offer dual spec? I understand wanting the option, yet don't understand demanding the option.
There is no underdog side. Both factions have identical classes, just reskinned. Hence faction vs faction is perfectly balanced.
Dual spec is coming soon, Bioware has already announced it. Not that any spec is particularly weak in PvP, unless you mean 1 vs 1, but thats always been stupid PvP anyway. What matters is how you work in a group.
I was referring to more imps than repubs.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Actually, I've never talked to a person that did a lot of PvP and didn't care about balance.
Well I guess there's a first for everything :P.
Well, let me back my point up with some arguments .
I PvP'd a lot in WAR, and my favorite class was the Shadow Warrior because it was supposed to be able to mix it up in both range and melee. I loved the idea of versatility. But I always found myself getting destroyed with my SW.
I tried so many different specs, and I was always just marginally effective. Getting a kill for me was a big deal.
Then I tried making a Bright Wizard, and dear god. It was like shooting fish in a barrel, I did SOOO much damage it was ridiculous. It just really highlighted how imbalanced the classes were.
PvP (esp. Battlegrounds) is literally a game, and it's one that you play to win. When you know that you are very likely to lose just because your class is weaker, it's frustrating.
THIS, so much this. This is why so many of us are frustrated.
I've seen people defend TOR for so many ridiculous reasons...especially in the area of BGs where I find it to be pretty lacking. My favorite argument that people make is that since TOR is a real "RPG," it doesn't have to be "fair" or "balanced" in PvP like other games. And it doesn't need to offer things like "dual spec" because it doesn't make sense that your character could just switch his skills. It's all about the "story" and "character development," everything else should matter less.
These arguments would be mildy valid if it wasn't for the fact that SWTOR already has so many unrealistic conceits from copying the WoW model. I mean, if I have to hit a dude in a t-shirt 30 times with a LIGHTSABER to kill him, then all bets are off.
Many do not expect balance in an MMO, at least when it comes to class v class or faction v faction. I certainly don't our guild has always preferred the underdog side anyway, more PVP to be found.
If you're complaining about the system in place that levels you up for PVP, I agree, yet really don't care as I won't be doing BG's anyway.
Why would a game need to offer dual spec? I understand wanting the option, yet don't understand demanding the option.
There is no underdog side. Both factions have identical classes, just reskinned. Hence faction vs faction is perfectly balanced.
Dual spec is coming soon, Bioware has already announced it. Not that any spec is particularly weak in PvP, unless you mean 1 vs 1, but thats always been stupid PvP anyway. What matters is how you work in a group.
I was referring to more imps than repubs.
thats an understatement i wouldn't be suprised if many servers were 80% imperial and once more and more hit 50 this issue is going to come up more and more
On a practical level, dual specs also make it MUCH easier to find a healer for dungeons and crap. Most healers don't like being specced in heal while they solo because it's inefficient, and respeccing can be expensive.
I like dual spec, because I like having the option to play two roles in end game dungeons.
But due to companions in this game you can level pretty easy as a healer spec, just use a DPS companion and heal it. Thats why theres so many types of companion, they are there to augment whatever your current role is weak in.
Actually, I've never talked to a person that did a lot of PvP and didn't care about balance.
Well I guess there's a first for everything :P.
Well, let me back my point up with some arguments .
I PvP'd a lot in WAR, and my favorite class was the Shadow Warrior because it was supposed to be able to mix it up in both range and melee. I loved the idea of versatility. But I always found myself getting destroyed with my SW.
I tried so many different specs, and I was always just marginally effective. Getting a kill for me was a big deal.
Then I tried making a Bright Wizard, and dear god. It was like shooting fish in a barrel, I did SOOO much damage it was ridiculous. It just really highlighted how imbalanced the classes were.
PvP (esp. Battlegrounds) is literally a game, and it's one that you play to win. When you know that you are very likely to lose just because your class is weaker, it's frustrating.
Yeah I can see that being frustrating. MY PVP background is mostly from DAOC and SWG. Which DAOC was all about large battles, it's kind of hard to see those types of balance issues there, though I do remember a lot of complaints about rogues, and their dmg.
With SWG and it's skill system, there were no real classes, balance was almost impossible to attain in such a system.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Actually, I've never talked to a person that did a lot of PvP and didn't care about balance.
Well I guess there's a first for everything :P.
Well, let me back my point up with some arguments .
I PvP'd a lot in WAR, and my favorite class was the Shadow Warrior because it was supposed to be able to mix it up in both range and melee. I loved the idea of versatility. But I always found myself getting destroyed with my SW.
I tried so many different specs, and I was always just marginally effective. Getting a kill for me was a big deal.
Then I tried making a Bright Wizard, and dear god. It was like shooting fish in a barrel, I did SOOO much damage it was ridiculous. It just really highlighted how imbalanced the classes were.
PvP (esp. Battlegrounds) is literally a game, and it's one that you play to win. When you know that you are very likely to lose just because your class is weaker, it's frustrating.
Yeah I can see that being frustrating. MY PVP background is mostly from DAOC and SWG. Which DAOC was all about large battles, it's kind of hard to see those types of balance issues there, though I do remember a lot of complaints about rogues, and their dmg.
With SWG and it's skill system, there were no real classes, balance was almost impossible to attain in such a system.
Ahh yeah, I see where you are coming from now.
When I PvP'd in DAoC and UO, it wasn't really a concern for me either. I think a large part of that is the frequency of the PvP. In those games, you PvP'd maybe once or twice a day, and it was usually spread out between lots of walking/planning. Also, the groups in DAoC were often so huge that it was tough to tell who was individually the most effective.
But in BGs, the PvP is so constant and in-your-face, it's almost impossible NOT to see who is OP/UP.
On a practical level, dual specs also make it MUCH easier to find a healer for dungeons and crap. Most healers don't like being specced in heal while they solo because it's inefficient, and respeccing can be expensive.
I like dual spec, because I like having the option to play two roles in end game dungeons.
But due to companions in this game you can level pretty easy as a healer spec, just use a DPS companion and heal it. Thats why theres so many types of companion, they are there to augment whatever your current role is weak in.
This is true, but I like switching specs just for the fun of playing in a different style.
On a practical level, dual specs also make it MUCH easier to find a healer for dungeons and crap. Most healers don't like being specced in heal while they solo because it's inefficient, and respeccing can be expensive.
I like dual spec, because I like having the option to play two roles in end game dungeons.
But due to companions in this game you can level pretty easy as a healer spec, just use a DPS companion and heal it. Thats why theres so many types of companion, they are there to augment whatever your current role is weak in.
This is true, but I like switching specs just for the fun of playing in a different style.
coming from rift its actually almost game breaking not to be able to change roles.. thats how fun rifts system was
Well, let me back my point up with some arguments .
I PvP'd a lot in WAR, and my favorite class was the Shadow Warrior because it was supposed to be able to mix it up in both range and melee. I loved the idea of versatility. But I always found myself getting destroyed with my SW.
I tried so many different specs, and I was always just marginally effective. Getting a kill for me was a big deal.
Then I tried making a Bright Wizard, and dear god. It was like shooting fish in a barrel, I did SOOO much damage it was ridiculous. It just really highlighted how imbalanced the classes were.
PvP (esp. Battlegrounds) is literally a game, and it's one that you play to win. When you know that you are very likely to lose just because your class is weaker, it's frustrating.
I have played PvP in pretty much every MMO since Runescape, and I have to say that SWTOR has by far the most balanced classes out of any MMO to date.
There isnt a single class that can destroy every other class, each have suitable weaknesses, strengths, crowd control and breakers.
When I PvP'd in DAoC and UO, it wasn't really a concern for me either. I think a large part of that is the frequency of the PvP. In those games, you PvP'd maybe once or twice a day, and it was usually spread out between lots of walking/planning. Also, the groups in DAoC were often so huge that it was tough to tell who was individually the most effective.
But in BGs, the PvP is so constant and in-your-face, it's almost impossible NOT to see who is OP/UP.
Yeah these two types of systems couldn't be more different when it comes to class effectiveness (DAOC vs modern TP's). My biggest turn-off for the BG systems I've tried were twinks. They've always driven me away from BG systems.
In SWG it was basically an issue of everyone being overpowered in 1 v 1.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I have played PvP in pretty much every MMO since Runescape, and I have to say that SWTOR has by far the most balanced classes out of any MMO to date.
There isnt a single class that can destroy every other class, each have suitable weaknesses, strengths, crowd control and breakers.
i dont find the big issue with pvp balance yet its the skill and animation delay.. but once a lot get 50 and start getting the top tier gear these people will be destroying people in warzones and this is going to lead to the same exact issues rift has where you have R8 people in the same warfronts as R1s..
coming from rift its actually almost game breaking not to be able to change roles.. thats how fun rifts system was
Rifts system was an abomination. Classes were cheap and meaningless.
your opinion...I felt it was the best part of the game.. rifts big failure is probably going to be this games big failure lack of meaningfull end game content
coming from rift its actually almost game breaking not to be able to change roles.. thats how fun rifts system was
Rifts system was an abomination. Classes were cheap and meaningless.
I would disagree. I mean, you're entitled to your opinion of course, but...
You still had four main "class archetypes" that you had to pick from at the start of the game, and your choice could not be changed. So there was still a lot of variety between players. It wasn't like everyone was the same.
Rift just gave you a lot of flexibility within your archetype. If you were a wizard, you could mix and match elements from all the different "souls" (kind of like magic schools) to create your own unique character.
And people actually found a lot of different effective combinations, it wasn't like it was all just one fotm. Personally, I LOVED the flexibility of Rift's system. I just couldn't stick with the game because it had the infinitely recycled WoW quest grind.
At some point, the lightbulb is going to go off in peoples head, they are going to get it.
What some people call AAA mmorpgs, i call themeparks. The only things that matters remains the same in these games. Progression/combat mechainics/content. Yes there are twists and new bells and whistles, but the core of these games remains the same exact game. The only thing that makes this game diffrent from rift diffrent from wow and what will be diffrent from GW2 is "new".
I remember these threads from the AoC launch/ WAR launch/ Rift launch...same arguments same complaints same defense arguments. Its Groundhog Day but with no bill murray. Rift had rifts, GW2 will have pvp, SWTOR has its IP, all will share the same "same old" as far as the above stated qualities.
I have no problems with these games, since i understand what im going to get when i subscribe to one.
I see so many people that join these games thinking its going to be revolutionary, or the next big thing, or diffrent at heart. Few days or weeks or months later they are in the forums for a new game expecting the same stuff waiting for launch.
They do this because they get a million new people every launch, make a ton of money off box sets, then live off the slowly dwindling sub base untill they toss it to the f2p wolves, by that time the next launch is ready.
There is diffrent out there, but people are voting with their wallet for this specific type of game, despite they are bored with it mechanically and say they want something diffrent and revolutionary.
With that said, who cares if your having fun that others are not? So long as their is one server with enough people to enjoy the game who cares if the game has 1mil or 5000 people? Who cares if people leave the game after a few days or few months? Enjoy the game for what it is and know that for your $50-100 investment (depending on how long you stay of course) your getting far more gaming hours than buying the latest $60 counsol game. Just stop expecting something you know isnt going to be part of the game, and with themeparks (AAA mmorpgs i guess) is not going to blow your mind with creativity and revolutionary mechanics.
If your really sick of this type of game theres a bunch of indy sandbox games that needs players, as well as some games that have shut down already that did do things diffrent and offerd a new gaming experience. That or they will have to start pumping out themeparks at a faster pace inorder to keep their player base distracted with "new" to take attention away from the fact that its the same damn game since 2004 (or before)
coming from rift its actually almost game breaking not to be able to change roles.. thats how fun rifts system was
Rifts system was an abomination. Classes were cheap and meaningless.
I would disagree. I mean, you're entitled to your opinion of course, but...
You still had four main "class archetypes" that you had to pick from at the start of the game, and your choice could not be changed. So there was still a lot of variety between players. It wasn't like everyone was the same.
Rift just gave you a lot of flexibility within your archetype. If you were a wizard, you could mix and match elements from all the different "souls" (kind of like magic schools) to create your own unique character.
And people actually found a lot of different effective combinations, it wasn't like it was all just one fotm. Personally, I LOVED the flexibility of Rift's system. I just couldn't stick with the game because it had the infinitely recycled WoW quest grind.
You 'could' create whatever you wanted, but most souls didnt work very well together, and the ones that did had a FOTM build that was number crunched to be the optimal build. If you didnt have it, you were sub par. All the skills looked the same, you never really felt like you were that class. You were basically one of 4 classes playing one of 3 roles.
Not to mention the fact that you could just shove all your abilities into one supermacro and spam it for optimal effect. I had two macros, one for single target dps and one for aoe dps, what a joke. Give me well defined and fun classes any day.
At some point, the lightbulb is going to go off in peoples head, they are going to get it.
What some people call AAA mmorpgs, i call themeparks. The only things that matters remains the same in these games. Progression/combat mechainics/content. Yes there are twists and new bells and whistles, but the core of these games remains the same exact game. The only thing that makes this game diffrent from rift diffrent from wow and what will be diffrent from GW2 is "new".
I remember these threads from the AoC launch/ WAR launch/ Rift launch...same arguments same complaints same defense arguments. Its Groundhog Day but with no bill murray. Rift had rifts, GW2 will have pvp, SWTOR has its IP, all will share the same "same old" as far as the above stated qualities.
I have no problems with these games, since i understand what im going to get when i subscribe to one.
I see so many people that join these games thinking its going to be revolutionary, or the next big thing, or diffrent at heart. Few days or weeks or months later they are in the forums for a new game expecting the same stuff waiting for launch.
They do this because they get a million new people every launch, make a ton of money off box sets, then live off the slowly dwindling sub base untill they toss it to the f2p wolves, by that time the next launch is ready.
There is diffrent out there, but people are voting with their wallet for this specific type of game, despite they are bored with it mechanically and say they want something diffrent and revolutionary.
With that said, who cares if your having fun that others are not? So long as their is one server with enough people to enjoy the game who cares if the game has 1mil or 5000 people? Who cares if people leave the game after a few days or few months? Enjoy the game for what it is and know that for your $50-100 investment (depending on how long you stay of course) your getting far more gaming hours than buying the latest $60 counsol game. Just stop expecting something you know isnt going to be part of the game, and with themeparks (AAA mmorpgs i guess) is not going to blow your mind with creativity and revolutionary mechanics.
If your really sick of this type of game theres a bunch of indy sandbox games that needs players, as well as some games that have shut down already that did do things diffrent and offerd a new gaming experience. That or they will have to start pumping out themeparks at a faster pace inorder to keep their player base distracted with "new" to take attention away from the fact that its the same damn game since 2004 (or before)
well said.. i just wish they wouldn't of used the star wars IP and would of gone mass effect then at least I wouldn't feel obligated to play for the next few months...
coming from rift its actually almost game breaking not to be able to change roles.. thats how fun rifts system was
Rifts system was an abomination. Classes were cheap and meaningless.
I would disagree. I mean, you're entitled to your opinion of course, but...
You still had four main "class archetypes" that you had to pick from at the start of the game, and your choice could not be changed. So there was still a lot of variety between players. It wasn't like everyone was the same.
Rift just gave you a lot of flexibility within your archetype. If you were a wizard, you could mix and match elements from all the different "souls" (kind of like magic schools) to create your own unique character.
And people actually found a lot of different effective combinations, it wasn't like it was all just one fotm. Personally, I LOVED the flexibility of Rift's system. I just couldn't stick with the game because it had the infinitely recycled WoW quest grind.
You 'could' create whatever you wanted, but most souls didnt work very well together, and the ones that did had a FOTM build that was number crunched to be the optimal build. If you didnt have it, you were sub par. All the skills looked the same, you never really felt like you were that class. You were basically one of 4 classes playing one of 3 roles.
Not to mention the fact that you could just shove all your abilities into one supermacro and spam it for optimal effect. I had two macros, one for single target dps and one for aoe dps, what a joke. Give me well defined and fun classes any day.
not true at all just look at taugrims or bleeds pvp videos and you can see how non FOTM builds can kick ass in pvp in that game.. also macros is a whole differn't argument and has nothing to do with how great the role system was in rift
with this system you really had so many options with your class you could come up with so many builds many people never even thought of.. here we are going to be stuck with the same couple builds for pretty much every class until they release an expansion
Comments
THIS, so much this. This is why so many of us are frustrated.
I've seen people defend TOR for so many ridiculous reasons...especially in the area of BGs where I find it to be pretty lacking. My favorite argument that people make is that since TOR is a real "RPG," it doesn't have to be "fair" or "balanced" in PvP like other games. And it doesn't need to offer things like "dual spec" because it doesn't make sense that your character could just switch his skills. It's all about the "story" and "character development," everything else should matter less.
These arguments would be mildy valid if it wasn't for the fact that SWTOR already has so many unrealistic conceits from copying the WoW model. I mean, if I have to hit a dude in a t-shirt 30 times with a LIGHTSABER to kill him, then all bets are off.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Many do not expect balance in an MMO, at least when it comes to class v class or faction v faction. I certainly don't our guild has always preferred the underdog side anyway, more PVP to be found.
If you're complaining about the system in place that levels you up for PVP, I agree, yet really don't care as I won't be doing BG's anyway.
Why would a game need to offer dual spec? I understand wanting the option, yet don't understand demanding the option.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Basically just expectations.
SWTOR has talent trees, most modern games with talent trees (or something like them) allow you to switch between them so you can play different roles effectively with one character. It gives you more variety of play, and people have begun to (rightly) expect this option.
On a practical level, dual specs also make it MUCH easier to find a healer for dungeons and crap. Most healers don't like being specced in heal while they solo because it's inefficient, and respeccing can be expensive.
EDIT: And as for balance...I'm sure "many" don't expect balance, but "many" do expect balance as well
. I mean, no one likes to play a gimped class ESPECIALLY in PvP. Imbalances are typically the root of issues like "FOTM" classes.
Actually, I've never talked to a person that did a lot of PvP and didn't care about balance.
DOUBLE EDIT:
ANother thing I wanted to add, is that this is why I think it's dangerous for a dev to make their game too similar to WoW. It opens it up to comparison with EVERY aspect of WoW, and if the new game falls short in any field, the players won't be happy.
Dual spec is a great example of this. It's only an issue because SWTOR has a similar talent tree setup to WoW.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I guess that makes sense, you'll have to forgive me I'm a little unfamiliar with Themepark nuances and normalities.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Well I guess there's a first for everything :P.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Ah yeah I see. As for me, after playing Rift and WoW where you can switch your spec, I really miss having the option in SWTOR.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
There is no underdog side. Both factions have identical classes, just reskinned. Hence faction vs faction is perfectly balanced.
Dual spec is coming soon, Bioware has already announced it. Not that any spec is particularly weak in PvP, unless you mean 1 vs 1, but thats always been stupid PvP anyway. What matters is how you work in a group.
I was referring to more imps than repubs.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Well, let me back my point up with some arguments
.
I PvP'd a lot in WAR, and my favorite class was the Shadow Warrior because it was supposed to be able to mix it up in both range and melee. I loved the idea of versatility. But I always found myself getting destroyed with my SW.
I tried so many different specs, and I was always just marginally effective. Getting a kill for me was a big deal.
Then I tried making a Bright Wizard, and dear god. It was like shooting fish in a barrel, I did SOOO much damage it was ridiculous. It just really highlighted how imbalanced the classes were.
PvP (esp. Battlegrounds) is literally a game, and it's one that you play to win. When you know that you are very likely to lose just because your class is weaker, it's frustrating.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
thats an understatement i wouldn't be suprised if many servers were 80% imperial and once more and more hit 50 this issue is going to come up more and more
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
I like dual spec, because I like having the option to play two roles in end game dungeons.
But due to companions in this game you can level pretty easy as a healer spec, just use a DPS companion and heal it. Thats why theres so many types of companion, they are there to augment whatever your current role is weak in.
Yeah I can see that being frustrating. MY PVP background is mostly from DAOC and SWG. Which DAOC was all about large battles, it's kind of hard to see those types of balance issues there, though I do remember a lot of complaints about rogues, and their dmg.
With SWG and it's skill system, there were no real classes, balance was almost impossible to attain in such a system.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Ahh yeah, I see where you are coming from now.
When I PvP'd in DAoC and UO, it wasn't really a concern for me either. I think a large part of that is the frequency of the PvP. In those games, you PvP'd maybe once or twice a day, and it was usually spread out between lots of walking/planning. Also, the groups in DAoC were often so huge that it was tough to tell who was individually the most effective.
But in BGs, the PvP is so constant and in-your-face, it's almost impossible NOT to see who is OP/UP.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
This is true, but I like switching specs just for the fun of playing in a different style.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
coming from rift its actually almost game breaking not to be able to change roles.. thats how fun rifts system was
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
I have played PvP in pretty much every MMO since Runescape, and I have to say that SWTOR has by far the most balanced classes out of any MMO to date.
There isnt a single class that can destroy every other class, each have suitable weaknesses, strengths, crowd control and breakers.
Yeah these two types of systems couldn't be more different when it comes to class effectiveness (DAOC vs modern TP's). My biggest turn-off for the BG systems I've tried were twinks. They've always driven me away from BG systems.
In SWG it was basically an issue of everyone being overpowered in 1 v 1.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Rifts system was an abomination. Classes were cheap and meaningless.
i dont find the big issue with pvp balance yet its the skill and animation delay.. but once a lot get 50 and start getting the top tier gear these people will be destroying people in warzones and this is going to lead to the same exact issues rift has where you have R8 people in the same warfronts as R1s..
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
your opinion...I felt it was the best part of the game.. rifts big failure is probably going to be this games big failure lack of meaningfull end game content
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
I would disagree. I mean, you're entitled to your opinion of course, but...
You still had four main "class archetypes" that you had to pick from at the start of the game, and your choice could not be changed. So there was still a lot of variety between players. It wasn't like everyone was the same.
Rift just gave you a lot of flexibility within your archetype. If you were a wizard, you could mix and match elements from all the different "souls" (kind of like magic schools) to create your own unique character.
And people actually found a lot of different effective combinations, it wasn't like it was all just one fotm. Personally, I LOVED the flexibility of Rift's system. I just couldn't stick with the game because it had the infinitely recycled WoW quest grind.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
At some point, the lightbulb is going to go off in peoples head, they are going to get it.
What some people call AAA mmorpgs, i call themeparks. The only things that matters remains the same in these games. Progression/combat mechainics/content. Yes there are twists and new bells and whistles, but the core of these games remains the same exact game. The only thing that makes this game diffrent from rift diffrent from wow and what will be diffrent from GW2 is "new".
I remember these threads from the AoC launch/ WAR launch/ Rift launch...same arguments same complaints same defense arguments. Its Groundhog Day but with no bill murray. Rift had rifts, GW2 will have pvp, SWTOR has its IP, all will share the same "same old" as far as the above stated qualities.
I have no problems with these games, since i understand what im going to get when i subscribe to one.
I see so many people that join these games thinking its going to be revolutionary, or the next big thing, or diffrent at heart. Few days or weeks or months later they are in the forums for a new game expecting the same stuff waiting for launch.
They do this because they get a million new people every launch, make a ton of money off box sets, then live off the slowly dwindling sub base untill they toss it to the f2p wolves, by that time the next launch is ready.
There is diffrent out there, but people are voting with their wallet for this specific type of game, despite they are bored with it mechanically and say they want something diffrent and revolutionary.
With that said, who cares if your having fun that others are not? So long as their is one server with enough people to enjoy the game who cares if the game has 1mil or 5000 people? Who cares if people leave the game after a few days or few months? Enjoy the game for what it is and know that for your $50-100 investment (depending on how long you stay of course) your getting far more gaming hours than buying the latest $60 counsol game. Just stop expecting something you know isnt going to be part of the game, and with themeparks (AAA mmorpgs i guess) is not going to blow your mind with creativity and revolutionary mechanics.
If your really sick of this type of game theres a bunch of indy sandbox games that needs players, as well as some games that have shut down already that did do things diffrent and offerd a new gaming experience. That or they will have to start pumping out themeparks at a faster pace inorder to keep their player base distracted with "new" to take attention away from the fact that its the same damn game since 2004 (or before)
You 'could' create whatever you wanted, but most souls didnt work very well together, and the ones that did had a FOTM build that was number crunched to be the optimal build. If you didnt have it, you were sub par. All the skills looked the same, you never really felt like you were that class. You were basically one of 4 classes playing one of 3 roles.
Not to mention the fact that you could just shove all your abilities into one supermacro and spam it for optimal effect. I had two macros, one for single target dps and one for aoe dps, what a joke. Give me well defined and fun classes any day.
well said.. i just wish they wouldn't of used the star wars IP and would of gone mass effect then at least I wouldn't feel obligated to play for the next few months...
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
not true at all just look at taugrims or bleeds pvp videos and you can see how non FOTM builds can kick ass in pvp in that game.. also macros is a whole differn't argument and has nothing to do with how great the role system was in rift
with this system you really had so many options with your class you could come up with so many builds many people never even thought of.. here we are going to be stuck with the same couple builds for pretty much every class until they release an expansion
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html