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What is Endgame to you?

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Comments

  • KingJigglyKingJiggly Simpsonville, SCPosts: 777Member
  • WarmakerWarmaker San Diego, CAPosts: 2,231Member

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Endgame means the game is over?

    Tell that to the players constantly playing endgame.

    Endgame is game.  It's journey.  It's not the end.

    I dunno.  If the only thing left to do is running repeated raids in the same few locations, that spells "The End" for me.  It's Hamster Wheel game design.  It's what you get when a game's a One Trick Pony.

    "I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,693Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Warmaker

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Endgame means the game is over?

    Tell that to the players constantly playing endgame.

    Endgame is game.  It's journey.  It's not the end.

    I dunno.  If the only thing left to do is running repeated raids in the same few locations, that spells "The End" for me.  It's Hamster Wheel game design.  It's what you get when a game's a One Trick Pony.

    Every game's a Hamster Wheel to a cynic.

    "One trick pony" is rather laughable too, considering how much there is to do in a well-designed endgame.

    Endgame is barely different from non-endgame.  The only differences are (a) no more leveling and (b) less quest content. 

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • TweFojuTweFoju Saitama & Jakarta ( current )Posts: 1,013Member Uncommon

    End game for me is when i have no purpose to play the game anymore, like i dont even bother to login for months anymore


    d when i have everything i ever wanted from the game, even if it is no the best, but if that is what i wanted and i have it, then i will say i hit the end game

     

    but again, is there really an End Game to begin with? it's just a human words creation

    there can be a gazillion reasons for each people to say what an End Game is

     

     

    So What Now?

  • blackcat35blackcat35 Lake Orion, MIPosts: 479Member

    End game for me is that I have played my main character to max level, and have played all the alts I wanted to play.  If I'm bored of the game and not logging in, then there is no good reason to keep paying to play the game, since I'm not playing the game.   I payed to play CITY OF HEROES for a year and was playing Ultima Online instead.  Its probably the only game I payed for but wasn't playing.  I played Everquest for several years before I became bored with it, and moved on to greener pastures.

    ==========================
    The game is dead not, this game is good we make it and Romania Tv give it 5 goat heads, this is good rating for game.

  • Agricola1Agricola1 PortsmouthPosts: 4,984Member

    Originally posted by 13333337

    "End Game" for me is when I rage quit. =P

    100% agree

     

    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"

    CS Lewis

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,923Member Uncommon

    Endgame either:

    A.) A time where you are meant to group up with guildies to take on bosses in raids and progress through content earning better gear that helps you (along with your skill) to take on new and harder places.

    B.) Intense PvP with some purpose, giving some accomplishment and fun.

    C.) Doesn't exist, and the game focuses on leveling and makes the task of leveling feel like an acomplishment on its own, not some tedious chore.

  • VhalnVhaln Chicago, ILPosts: 3,159Member

     

    Endgame is the giant carrot on the stick that motivates me to want to level up.  

     

    I might not even play the endgame that much, maybe I'd rather level up a team of alts to just dabble in it with.  but it has to be something other than a dead end that seems pointless to me.  Something that has some sort of overaching impact on the rest of the game, not some little tacked on afterthought for bored powergamers.

     

    When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.

  • DiviciacusDiviciacus CardiffPosts: 30Member

    Originally posted by headphones

    Endgame.

    The very idea sends shivers down my spine, personally. It means the game is over. It is at the end. You have reached level cap and may go no further. You are the Balrog faced by Gandalf. You shall not pass.

    For many, Endgame must be achieved fast and furious. This I don't understand. How many times have you had someone ask you to "walk" them through a dungeon they're five levels too low to cope with and you're twenty levels too high to find challenging? Just so they can reach Endgame fast by skipping as much of the game so they can finally play with the big boys. For me, it's like skipping University and jumping straight into a physicist's gig. I mean, sure, the pay might be nice. But think of all the drinking and messing about with the opposite sex you missed out on.

    And what do you do at Endgame?

    You do a few dungeons. A few raids. Stand around in the town a lot. Sneer at players whose skill tree isn't identical to yours - which you found on a website telling you it was the most leet thing ever today.

    I always feel sad when I reach Endgame. Like someone's just given me a gold medal but cut off my legs at the same time. Sure, those final dungeons might be kind of neat. Once. But after that, you can usually play them blindfolded. There's no thrill. Nothing of the excitement you've been facing for the previous levels. There's nothing to striver FOR other than, well, maybe a new shoulderpiece. Or shiny dagger of doom.

    And when you've gotten that?

    What do you do?

    I think what I'm saying is that the whole Endgame ritual we've gotten used to has a flaw. Prior to Endgame, we're running and going someplace. At Endgame, we're running and going no place. We're doing the same raid over and over and over and over. Playing the same game of chess against a computer which plays the same moves every game.

    All MMOs are looking at Endgame, but most are focussing on slapping on a Raid with bigger numbers to the boss' damage output and health and pretty much wiping their hands of the whole thing. Isn't this what's making us feel stagnant? Making us search from game to game. Though we all hate the crawling grind toward Endgame, and we feel that initial thrill of reaching the top of the mountain, when we're there we look around and realise that the top of this mountain looks just like the last one we climbed.

    I know many of us mock WOW. I do, too, these days. But I have never forgotten the first time I encountered the pyramid of Zul'Farrak. The moment all those trolls started gathering at the bottom... And when they started rushing. Well, I can't remember the last time I made noises like I did during that fight (don't tell my wife). It was chaos. Mayhem. The closest WOW ever got to being unpredictable. But the second, and third time... Meh. You knew what was going to happen.

    Having said all that, I'm looking forward to the next generation of MMO's. Is anyone else as excited as me with the concept of Dynamic Events? The opportunities there are simply endless. And with GW2 taking those DEs into their dungeons, this opens up more opportunities. I was wondering if I'm alone, though, in wishing for more randomizing of content? Who really is happy to "know" the fight? Who prefers the scripted Endgame?

     

    My dear man, I couldn't agree more with you,  you have hit the proverbial nail on the proverbial head.  I have been thinking and saying this for ages.  Peoples obsession with tired outdated game conventions , and all that you have so successfully highlighted, is exactly one of the reasons mmo's are so stagnant and why those players who grip onto these tiresome concepts hold the genre back as games companies churn out uninspiring samey crap. 

    In conversation with a mate I have been trying to get across how much more entertaining, challenging and enduring 'endgame' ( I have grown to loathe the term because of all its connotations) would become if content was more dynamic and random.  The excuse forthcoming against this appears to be because raids seem to cater to the competitive types (you know the elitist , holy than thou players who as you mention get great pleasure out of ridiculing others out of bordeom). Those players who need to be able to revisit the same unchanging raid content so its a level playing field as they all race headlong at breakneck speed  to down that 'Boss'  and/or get that tinsel draped loot before anyone else so they can sit and stroke each others virtual schlong and add yet another notch on their guild bedpost whilst standing once again in a hub city guffawing into their Pimms.

    These players speak of challenge, and yet they fail to see revisting that same content over and over and over ad nauseum is as challenging as dribbling.  Stroke your 'epeen'  ( yet another irritating term) by all means, but try entering an instance  (speaks in hushed tones) where mobs haven't left virtual grooves in the virtual floor as they amble along same old routes. I'd actually take more notice of guild/player boasts if they were actually not playing through groundhog raids, and instead were reacting to more challenging dynamic gameplay.  It might also cut down on the 'know it all, patronizing drivel' that pollutes general chats if the elitist raid monkeys were too busy having to react to dynamic shizzle rather than, ' stand here you noob ' etc.  Just a thought, Nice post mate.

  • SiveriaSiveria Saint John, New BrunswickPosts: 1,200Member Uncommon

    Endgame to me should be a combo of pve and pvp, raiding in pve to get the best gear, then faction vs faction pvp with it, preferably in large open spaces with buildings you can take control of and such. Bascally what daoc has. Before spellcrafting you'd raid for the best gear, then go pvp with it in the frontiers. Seemed to work well but no other dev has managed to pull it off yet. Endgame like wow's doesn't appeal to me, I need to have a use for the raid gear, why spend all this time to get gear from raids if all it does is rot on your char till the next raid date? I am also not a fan of the carrot-on-a-stick stuff that wow uses, I won't fall for it.

    MMO's have gone down the shitter though since wow's release. The devs don't even try to do anything new and unique anymore, they just copy and paste wow with a new skin, Rift, SWToR, Runes of Magic to name 3. Not that I blame them when they see wow's sub numbers and they see dollar signs, but it never seems to work as well for these other devs. The devs fail to relize that people that stoped playing wow, don't wanna play another game thats bascally the same thing just with a new skin over it. SWToR will have good box sales but I bet the game will be a ghost town after the free month, 2 months max, since the game offers nothing good or unique to keep people interested. It'll be profitable yes, but it won't retain the numbers of subs bioware is probally hoping for.

    Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

    A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

    or

    B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

    Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Icewhite

    I know a guy who filled all of his char slots with alts, and deleted them when they capped out.

    For him, that was "endgame", repeating the leveling content over and over and over.  Not anything I'd want to do, but he was happy playing that way.

    I know a guild full of guys that played for the top of the progression chart, and got their "fun" from competing with other guilds.

    I know a guy trying to wrack up the most "kills" in the server's history.

    I know some roleplayers that never even think about "endgame"--it's all endgame.

    I know mechants trying to monopolize the server's economy, and crafters searching for that one last elusive recipe (completists, collectors, and explorers of all varieties).

    I submit that boredom at endgame is either a result of burnout or a simple lack of imagination (as far as creating your own goals).  Can't prove it, but that's my gut feeling.

     

    I've met similar types of people in MMO's over the years and they all find things to do but thats in well put together games like WoW, EQ2, LotRO, Aion, UO etc.... one guy I played with was hellbent on maxing out every skill in Ryzom and he's about 2/3rds the way there after 5 Years...image but trying to do that in War, AoC, Rift, CO, STO is a damn sight more difficult as these games don't have the content to let you do this. I'm one for the long levelling curve whether its skill leveling or progression leveling its fundamental to many other aspects of the game like crafting, ecomony, sense of community, deep lore and story based questing, group content, Alts, PvP and endgame it opens out avenues for these things to flourish as content but fast leveling just speeds people to endgame alone without laying the foundation for things to do when you get there.

     

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,693Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Diviciacus

    My dear man, I couldn't agree more with you,  you have hit the proverbial nail on the proverbial head.  I have been thinking and saying this for ages.  Peoples obsession with tired outdated game conventions , and all that you have so successfully highlighted, is exactly one of the reasons mmo's are so stagnant and why those players who grip onto these tiresome concepts hold the genre back as games companies churn out uninspiring samey crap. 

    In conversation with a mate I have been trying to get across how much more entertaining, challenging and enduring 'endgame' ( I have grown to loathe the term because of all its connotations) would become if content was more dynamic and random.  The excuse forthcoming against this appears to be because raids seem to cater to the competitive types (you know the elitist , holy than thou players who as you mention get great pleasure out of ridiculing others out of bordeom). Those players who need to be able to revisit the same unchanging raid content so its a level playing field as they all race headlong at breakneck speed  to down that 'Boss'  and/or get that tinsel draped loot before anyone else so they can sit and stroke each others virtual schlong and add yet another notch on their guild bedpost whilst standing once again in a hub city guffawing into their Pimms.

    These players speak of challenge, and yet they fail to see revisting that same content over and over and over ad nauseum is as challenging as dribbling.  Stroke your 'epeen'  ( yet another irritating term) by all means, but try entering an instance  (speaks in hushed tones) where mobs haven't left virtual grooves in the virtual floor as they amble along same old routes. I'd actually take more notice of guild/player boasts if they were actually not playing through groundhog raids, and instead were reacting to more challenging dynamic gameplay.  It might also cut down on the 'know it all, patronizing drivel' that pollutes general chats if the elitist raid monkeys were too busy having to react to dynamic shizzle rather than, ' stand here you noob ' etc.  Just a thought, Nice post mate.

    1. "Obsessed with outdated game conventions" perfectly describes those complaining about endgame.  "Spend forever leveling" is the outdated convention people obsess over, and they're outraged that things have changed and 'endgame' exists.  So much obsession over so trivial a feature (leveling).  Quite odd.

    We're gonna see the same thing when MMORPGs transition from endgame to something else, with the current crop of players who enjoy raiding complaining about how change occurred and they're outraged.

    2. Do you honestly believe static content can't be challenging?  It might not be challenging the 100th time, but there's always a tougher boss until you get to the absolute end of progression (the hardest boss on the hardest difficulty.)  Typically this is balanced so that there's a new raid out before you even complete the previous hardest boss of the old raids.

    Granted it would be fair to criticize raiding in that difficulty should be a little more from the bosses themselves and a little less from your teammates screwing up.  That's why I lean towards smaller-scale content personally, where my skill has more impact.

    You definitely don't need a raid to get a sense of competition, at any rate.  There are tons of ways small-scale content could be made competitive if that's truly why people raid (I'm not convinced it is, given that most guilds are very socially-tilted.)

    3. Have you actually raided? You literally have to go out of your way to find a guild "racing" through endgame.  The majority are relaxed and social.  So you've either never raided, or were bad at finding a guild suitable to your tastes.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by Diviciacus

    My dear man, I couldn't agree more with you,  you have hit the proverbial nail on the proverbial head.  I have been thinking and saying this for ages.  Peoples obsession with tired outdated game conventions , and all that you have so successfully highlighted, is exactly one of the reasons mmo's are so stagnant and why those players who grip onto these tiresome concepts hold the genre back as games companies churn out uninspiring samey crap. 

    In conversation with a mate I have been trying to get across how much more entertaining, challenging and enduring 'endgame' ( I have grown to loathe the term because of all its connotations) would become if content was more dynamic and random.  The excuse forthcoming against this appears to be because raids seem to cater to the competitive types (you know the elitist , holy than thou players who as you mention get great pleasure out of ridiculing others out of bordeom). Those players who need to be able to revisit the same unchanging raid content so its a level playing field as they all race headlong at breakneck speed  to down that 'Boss'  and/or get that tinsel draped loot before anyone else so they can sit and stroke each others virtual schlong and add yet another notch on their guild bedpost whilst standing once again in a hub city guffawing into their Pimms.

    These players speak of challenge, and yet they fail to see revisting that same content over and over and over ad nauseum is as challenging as dribbling.  Stroke your 'epeen'  ( yet another irritating term) by all means, but try entering an instance  (speaks in hushed tones) where mobs haven't left virtual grooves in the virtual floor as they amble along same old routes. I'd actually take more notice of guild/player boasts if they were actually not playing through groundhog raids, and instead were reacting to more challenging dynamic gameplay.  It might also cut down on the 'know it all, patronizing drivel' that pollutes general chats if the elitist raid monkeys were too busy having to react to dynamic shizzle rather than, ' stand here you noob ' etc.  Just a thought, Nice post mate.

    1. "Obsessed with outdated game conventions" perfectly describes those complaining about endgame.  "Spend forever leveling" is the outdated convention people obsess over, and they're outraged that things have changed and 'endgame' exists.  So much obsession over so trivial a feature (leveling).  Quite odd.

    We're gonna see the same thing when MMORPGs transition from endgame to something else, with the current crop of players who enjoy raiding complaining about how change occurred and they're outraged.

    2. Do you honestly believe static content can't be challenging?  It might not be challenging the 100th time, but there's always a tougher boss until you get to the absolute end of progression (the hardest boss on the hardest difficulty.)  Typically this is balanced so that there's a new raid out before you even complete the previous hardest boss of the old raids.

    Granted it would be fair to criticize raiding in that difficulty should be a little more from the bosses themselves and a little less from your teammates screwing up.  That's why I lean towards smaller-scale content personally, where my skill has more impact.

    You definitely don't need a raid to get a sense of competition, at any rate.  There are tons of ways small-scale content could be made competitive if that's truly why people raid (I'm not convinced it is, given that most guilds are very socially-tilted.)

    3. Have you actually raided? You literally have to go out of your way to find a guild "racing" through endgame.  The majority are relaxed and social.  So you've either never raided, or were bad at finding a guild suitable to your tastes.

    Here he goes again. Assuming someone is bad at finding Guilds because he knows how all MMO's work.

    IDK what MMO's you have been playing Axehilt, but I can tell you I have played tons of them, and in nearly every one of them, there are plenty of endgame Guilds that are all about being "1st" in everything...but are hard to get into unless you have decent gear., knwo someone already in it, or have an elitist attitude. There are plenty of social Guilds...true, but most are FULL of drama, and have "cliques" within them too....sadly.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,693Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Goatgod76

    IDK what MMO's you have been playing Axehilt, but I can tell you I have played tons of them, and in nearly every one of them, there are plenty of endgame Guilds that are all about being "1st" in everything...but are hard to get into unless you have decent gear., knwo someone already in it, or have an elitist attitude. There are plenty of social Guilds...true, but most are FULL of drama, and have "cliques" within them too....sadly.

    Plenty of guilds are like that.

    The majority of guilds aren't.

    This should be obvious:



    • Casual players don't reach endgame.


    • Casual Hardcore players reach endgame and spend time in relaxed, casual, social guilds.


    • Hardcore Hardcore players reach endgame and race through progression as efficiently as possible.


    Each of these groups is substantially smaller than the previous group.


     

    If you don't want "racing" -- the other poster didn't seem to -- there are clearly lots of guilds (more than the "racing" ones) suited to that playstyle.

    Also, here's some sad news if you expect to join any social setting without cliques and drama:  We're humans.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

    Just tried free trial Dungeons Dragons Online, Age of Conan, and Everquest 2:  wowclone where mana doesn't recharge, wowclone with boobs, and wowclone where mana recharges too fast.

     

    Thankfully my hard drive is like 1,000 gig, what is that a terrabyte now?

  • DJJazzyDJJazzy louisville, COPosts: 2,053Member

    Originally posted by Nerf09

    Just tried free trial Dungeons Dragons Online, Age of Conan, and Everquest 2:  wowclone where mana doesn't recharge, wowclone with boobs, and wowclone where mana recharges too fast.

     

    Thankfully my hard drive is like 1,000 gig, what is that a terrabyte now?

    I'd hardly call DDO a wow clone and EQ2 came out before wow...

    Anyway, Endgame to me is the end of the game. It's when I don't play it anymore. In other words, I don't believe in an "endgame".

  • 8BitAvatar8BitAvatar Frozen Tundra, WIPosts: 196Member

    I don't believe in "endgame" either. Never liked the term.

    The only endgame that exists is the one when I cancel my subscription and move onto something new.

    This whole "I beat the game" or reached "endgame" for an MMO is so antithetical to what they were originally envisioned as.

    Single player games are beaten. MMOs are worlds to live in.

    End. Of. Story.

  • JohnnyBravolJohnnyBravol Toronto, ONPosts: 83Member

    Nice to see so many other people hate endgame, I'll never understand how WoW is so popular. Back to older games with no endgame content for me:)

  • DiviciacusDiviciacus CardiffPosts: 30Member

    Originally posted by 8BitAvatar

    I don't believe in "endgame" either. Never liked the term.

    The only endgame that exists is the one when I cancel my subscription and move onto something new.

    This whole "I beat the game" or reached "endgame" for an MMO is so antithetical to what they were originally envisioned as.

    Single player games are beaten. MMOs are worlds to live in.

    End. Of. Story.

    I totally agree with you my friend.  The goddamn term encompasses all that irritates me with the mmo genre.  If anything, as players reach the giddy heights of their given class the gameworld should look more expansive and open, not less so and repetitive so as to reduce the whole game to nothing but a race to get the best gear.

  • PhelcherPhelcher Boston, MAPosts: 1,053Member
    "Endgame" means a trivial point within a Game's timeline, in which the developer decides you've earned the right to don a certain piece of weapon/armor... in which u've done everything the developer told u to do!

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

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