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This game could have been so much more

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  • MikeBMikeB MMORPG.com Community Manager Queens, NYPosts: 5,717Administrator Uncommon

    Let's stay on topic guys, rehashing SWG's history is not the purpose of this thread, these posts will be removed.

    I'd also like to add that you are not required to post in this or any discussion. So if you aren't interested in discussing what the OP has posted, please simply do not post in this thread. Thanks!

    Michael "MikeB" Bitton
    Community Manager
    Twitter: @eMikeB

  • Zeal77Zeal77 Savannah, GAPosts: 158Member

    You're asking for 2 games in one- Eve Online and SWTOR. The damn thing hasn't even launched yet, give it some freakin time, jeez.

  • LoekiiLoekii China Hot Springs, AKPosts: 430Member

    Originally posted by Zeal77

    You're asking for 2 games in one- Eve Online and SWTOR. The damn thing hasn't even launched yet, give it some freakin time, jeez.

    It has prelaunched, which is why we are seeing so much more feedback.   More and more people are seeing the game (first hand or secondhand), and thus are making their comments on what they are experiencing.

     

    The general idea is to disucss the game, but also for some to toss around feedback ideas.

    image

  • Agricola1Agricola1 PortsmouthPosts: 4,984Member

    I'm sure the OP will get to play the MMORPG he describes around 2050 when even gamers in the third world have the bandwidth to cope with that. Until then no compant is going to sign their own death warrant and even attempt to create what would be a lag feat broken up by regular server crashes, at best.

    We all want to have the future now and play that game but BW can't install every players home with a conection from 40 years in the future so that it works.

    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"

    CS Lewis

  • LoekiiLoekii China Hot Springs, AKPosts: 430Member

    Originally posted by WhiteLantern

    Originally posted by cyress8

    On topic: This thread is not new, every game comes out and a vocal minority start talking about how the game had so much more potential. Rather than enjoy what the game is, they only look to what the game doesn't offer them personally.  This holds even more true for games with well-established IPs.

    I really don't think that if the game offered 7 more races, 4 more classes and a full on X-wing sim, the dissident minority would be any more appeased.

    True, games do have vocal minorities.  However it is also true that most MMORPGS released, have not met most customers satisfactions, and been able to retain their subs for more than a few months.   So vocal minority or not, their comments tend to accurately reflect the disatisfaction with previous projects that they were vocal about, and could be acurate with TOR.

     

    The notion that a vocal minority cannot have any crediblity is completely flawed, especially when there is not a vocal majority refuting the points brought up.     If the vocal minority that is presenting critisms is 'wrong', then the vocal miniority that is presenting 'praise' must be wrong too, because they too are in the minority.      

    The silent majority 'speaks' with their subscriptions.  The silent majority of WoW players, are saying they like WoW enough to keep resubbing.  The silent majority of LotRO (F2P) is saying they like the F2P model of LotRO.  The silent majority of SWG, LoTRO(p2P), WAR, AoC, STO are saying that those games were not entertaining enough to retain their dollar.  

     

    So the vocal minority - pro/con - should not be disregarded simply because most customers are not vocal either way.

     

     

     

    image

  • NMStudioNMStudio Anytown, KYPosts: 376Member

    Originally posted by Yamota

    Originally posted by zakiyawow

    I am still waiting on ANY of the posters who said companies took the easy way out to put THEIR money in a different type of game.

    Sure, it is easy to say things when our money is not involved. If I were to invest in a MMO, you can bet I will want company to use the proven fomular.

    I am a long time gamer but I have to say : Bwtween passion and money, I pick money. Just being honest. Passion does not feed me, cloth me or put a roof over me.

    Well it depends on what your driving motivation is for creating games. If it would be money then yes, I would understand why Bioware did what they did. But if their driving motivation would be to create something innovative, which might at the same time give you alot of money, then I dont understand why they did what they did.

    I mean if you had only corporations who bet on tried and tested concepts you would never have things like iPhone, tablets, 3D cinema etc. I am betting that there are still some companies that wants to try and innovate and take risks. But, in the MMORPG industry, I may be wrong.

    Iphone:  the phone was tried and true, and went through hundreds of small incremental changes.  The portable music device was tried and tested, and went through hundreds of small incredemental changes.  We even had smart phones, combining the two.  What did apple do?  They branded it, made it flashy, and ultimately gave us nothing revolutionary, and made a fortunte off of it.  There was very little real innovation and risk.

    The MMORPG is going to have to suffer through these same small, incremental changes as long as the games costs 10's of millions of dollars to make.  Our best, or only, hope is for small indie teams to give us options and have moderate success that they can build on.

    image

  • LordRelicLordRelic clearfield, UTPosts: 281Member

    Originally posted by Loekii

    Originally posted by WhiteLantern


    Originally posted by cyress8

    On topic: This thread is not new, every game comes out and a vocal minority start talking about how the game had so much more potential. Rather than enjoy what the game is, they only look to what the game doesn't offer them personally.  This holds even more true for games with well-established IPs.

    I really don't think that if the game offered 7 more races, 4 more classes and a full on X-wing sim, the dissident minority would be any more appeased.

    True, games do have vocal minorities.  However it is also true that most MMORPGS released, have not met most customers satisfactions, and been able to retain their subs for more than a few months.   So vocal minority or not, their comments tend to accurately reflect the disatisfaction with previous projects that they were vocal about, and could be acurate with TOR.

     

    The notion that a vocal minority cannot have any crediblity is completely flawed, especially when there is not a vocal majority refuting the points brought up.     If the vocal minority that is presenting critisms is 'wrong', then the vocal miniority that is presenting 'praise' must be wrong too, because they too are in the minority.      

    The silent majority 'speaks' with their subscriptions.  The silent majority of WoW players, are saying they like WoW enough to keep resubbing.  The silent majority of LotRO (F2P) is saying they like the F2P model of LotRO.  The silent majority of SWG, LoTRO(p2P), WAR, AoC, STO are saying that those games were not entertaining enough to retain their dollar.  

     

    So the vocal minority - pro/con - should not be disregarded simply because most customers are not vocal either way.

     

     

     

    minority is still the minority no matter how vocal  and as for them speaking for those who dont want to vocalise is  nonsence to try and make them seem bigger then they are.

     

    As for the OP:  I can understand constructive criticism but just trying to turn this game into swg is not going to happen BW already made that perfectly clear.

  • cdesteycdestey Bethlehem, GAPosts: 70Member

    Originally posted by Westside32

    OP what you fail to realize about Eve's seamless open world is that IT IS NOT seamless and open.  Eve is a series of  zones separtated from each other by jump gates.  You can not simply fly your ship from one zone to the next with out jumping through a gate.  Also Eve's zone are Mostly all black with little fine details. It is graphically easy to make space zones since there is little to no fine detail ie grass, trees, landscape, hills mountains etc.  Also In Eve every ship of same type is IDENTICAL in size, shape and graphics with no deviation.  So please stop comparing Eve and SWToR they are completely different games, with completely different demands on a computer.  IF SWToR tried to do what you are asking 70% of the people that are playing the game currently would not have the rig capable of making that game playable.  Every company that makes a so called next gen game with computer requirements that are high end reqs immediately eliminates a huge amount of subscribers, which in turn  leads to a huge money loss.  The fact is you want a hugely successful MMO you make it playable by as many PC users as possible which means you have to make playable and much larger range of computers.  Because here is a secret, the guy with the $2-3k rig is giving the company the same size subscription fee as the guy with the $600 rig.

     Best answer to the OP's question/complaint I've seen in this thread.

  • TheCrow2kTheCrow2k Adelaide, AKPosts: 953Member

    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Originally posted by TheCrow2k

    Its like they took an already heavily refined product in WoW and tried to refine it even further to the point its so homogynised that you are barely playing in a game world and are more just strapped into a themepark ride.

    I think the basic problem is that we're looking at two audiences here.

    Old guys, critical, played the hell out of MMOs for years.  They're looking for flaws, picking things apart to find more to dislike.  "Creativity" is a good line of attack, because it's subjective enough that its impossible to directly refute.

    And the rest of the audience, not completely jaded and disgusted with everything (yet), given a solid and servicable game with just as much room to grow, and the same growing pains coming soon, as any new MMO.

    Oh, there's a third audience, of course, the people who just want a completely different sub-genre.  Not much you can do with them except "this game obviously is not ever going to be what you want".

     

    if you read my earlier posts and the posts of others in this thread you would realise not everyone fits these 3 categories at all. As I said earlier theres nothing I really hate about SWTOR but theres also nothing I really love about it, its just average.

     

    I havent even played an MMO for over 8 months and wouldnt have been near a WoW clone or WoW for years and still SWTOR feels like old hat.

  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn belleville, ILPosts: 1,701Member Uncommon

    The ever popular lament of 'it could have been better/more/etc'  This is said for every game out there.  A game will never meet the expectations of every player that play them.  You play a game for what it is, not for what it could have been or should have been.

    Concentrate on enjoying yourself, and not on why I shouldn't enjoy myself.

  • musicmannmusicmann port allen, LAPosts: 1,107Member

    To the OP. It's not that this game could have been so much more as it can be so much more. Bioware has laid the foundation to implement many things into the game at a pace they choose. There are many new systems that can be added, in which they have already made it clear they will be doing through community feedback.

  • MargulisMargulis Glendale, AZPosts: 1,614Member

    Originally posted by Yamota

    First of I would like to say that what Bioware has produced is not bad. It is a solid game with responsive controls, good UI, well done gfx and sound, interesting storylines etc but every time when I think of this game I feel this game could have been so much more.

    Come on now..... good UI?  Yeah I love how I can't move a single window or customize anything.  Also love sifting through the mission log every time I want to get to my codex, or similar examples.

    Imagine for example looking up and seeing an X-Wing fly through the sky and you would know that this ship is controlled by another person. Then imagine the same X-Wing going into space and docking with a nebulon frigate (name?), which is owned by a mega player run corporation.

    In that ship you would have real quarters, no instanced, which player could own and have other visit. You can continue with this thought experiment but I feel, well I know, that Bioware did not at all tried to re-create the SW universe in an MMORPG but just focus on ground combat, instances etc.

    Really dont understand why companies aren't thinking big when they have such an IP on their hands. It was similar with Star Trek Online, a stupid space shooter instead of trying to create a persistant Star Trek World which can be about so much more than just instanced combat.

    For example, what if Bioware took all the money they spent on voice acting and instead tried to create an interesting persistant world. I for one think the game would be much better as a result, a much better MMORPG that is. After all, what do I care about voice acting? I can watch a real movie if I want some acting.

    They went the safe route in pretty much every way because they are trying to maximize profits.  They saw WOW succeed with this formula, so they are following it in almost every way.  It's really that simple.  Of course it could have been more, there are so many features / aspects of this game that are mediocre or "just good enough" it's insulting to call it a 2012 MMO.  But what can you do?

  • KhurgKhurg Philadelphia, PAPosts: 47Member

    If you want great space play with mega corps, go play EVE. OH and X wings won't come along for 3000 years of game time.

  • MckiedizMckiediz ParisPosts: 48Member

    I think so much people tend to give immensurable credits to Bioware's talent, besides the strenght of the IP and the "crazyness" that comes along with does not help at all.

     

    Bioware games are known mostly for their compelling story telling not for their living and breathing worlds. Considering it's their first MMO (which is pretty good though), let's give them a chance to learn from what they miss.

  • sanosukexsanosukex Los Angeles, CAPosts: 1,836Member

    Originally posted by Mckiediz

    I think so much people tend to give immensurable credits to Bioware's talent, besides the strenght of the IP and the "crazyness" that comes along with does not help at all.

     

    Bioware games are known mostly for their compelling story telling not for their living and breathing worlds. Considering it's their first MMO (which is pretty good though), let's give them a chance to learn from what they miss.

    i wouldn't say cuase its there first MMO is a good excuse. I'm sure many of there team have worked on MMOs before. The basic model they used has been around forever. They have over a decade of smiliar games to leech from. This isn't a new concept this isn't UO or EQ1 where there hasn't been a TON before you. All the ground work was already there and they choose to not expand upon that groundwork add there own brand of VO/story and thats really about it.. sure they could rebound and add a ton to the game but they are going to spend months just playing catch up putting in all the features that could of been in launch.

  • MckiedizMckiediz ParisPosts: 48Member

    No excuse there. That is simply common sense :

    why  wouldn't they build the game on what they are doing the best?

    Do they nail it? Does it give room for improvements?

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member

    Originally posted by cdestey

    Originally posted by Westside32

    OP what you fail to realize about Eve's seamless open world is that IT IS NOT seamless and open.  Eve is a series of  zones separtated from each other by jump gates.  You can not simply fly your ship from one zone to the next with out jumping through a gate.  Also Eve's zone are Mostly all black with little fine details. It is graphically easy to make space zones since there is little to no fine detail ie grass, trees, landscape, hills mountains etc.  Also In Eve every ship of same type is IDENTICAL in size, shape and graphics with no deviation.  So please stop comparing Eve and SWToR they are completely different games, with completely different demands on a computer.  IF SWToR tried to do what you are asking 70% of the people that are playing the game currently would not have the rig capable of making that game playable.  Every company that makes a so called next gen game with computer requirements that are high end reqs immediately eliminates a huge amount of subscribers, which in turn  leads to a huge money loss.  The fact is you want a hugely successful MMO you make it playable by as many PC users as possible which means you have to make playable and much larger range of computers.  Because here is a secret, the guy with the $2-3k rig is giving the company the same size subscription fee as the guy with the $600 rig.

     Best answer to the OP's question/complaint I've seen in this thread.

    It really is not. I did not compare the game to Eve, not sure where he is getting it from. The persistant part maybe? That is no exclusive to Eve, it just feels like that since every game out there is an instanced themepark.

    More over this guy seems the be only concerned about how much profit the game will make for Bioware. Something that I dont care about, I was rather talking about the potential of good game this could have been if they tried to innovate rather than copy WoW.

  • LoekiiLoekii China Hot Springs, AKPosts: 430Member

    Originally posted by Mckiediz

    No excuse there. That is simply common sense :

    why  wouldn't they build the game on what they are doing the best?

    Do they nail it? Does it give room for improvements?

    Imo, they could have done what they do best, while also doing well on the MMO aspects.   

     

    I mean there are a few mmo things that it does not make sense that they missed on.    I was not expecting them to present a WoW killing, but I was expecting to basically see a strong 2011/12 MMO game -- taking most of what works in other current MMOs, and adding their VO/Story to it. 

     

    image

  • StonesDKStonesDK SomewherePosts: 1,805Member

    Originally posted by Yamota

    First of I would like to say that what Bioware has produced is not bad. It is a solid game with responsive controls, good UI, well done gfx and sound, interesting storylines etc but every time when I think of this game I feel this game could have been so much more.

    Imagine for example looking up and seeing an X-Wing fly through the sky and you would know that this ship is controlled by another person. Then imagine the same X-Wing going into space and docking with a nebulon frigate (name?), which is owned by a mega player run corporation.

    In that ship you would have real quarters, no instanced, which player could own and have other visit. You can continue with this thought experiment but I feel, well I know, that Bioware did not at all tried to re-create the SW universe in an MMORPG but just focus on ground combat, instances etc.

    Really dont understand why companies aren't thinking big when they have such an IP on their hands. It was similar with Star Trek Online, a stupid space shooter instead of trying to create a persistant Star Trek World which can be about so much more than just instanced combat.

    For example, what if Bioware took all the money they spent on voice acting and instead tried to create an interesting persistant world. I for one think the game would be much better as a result, a much better MMORPG that is. After all, what do I care about voice acting? I can watch a real movie if I want some acting.

    I simply can't take any rant you make serious, unless there is a SWG reference in there somewhere

    j/k

     

    TOR is more than just voice acting. For once there's a mmo with good story lines worth following in my opinion. The downside is, it will only be entertaining for about a month tops. Story+Voice acting as great as it is, has a short expiration date.

  • chryseschryses LondonPosts: 1,453Member Uncommon

    I agree with you but as with all things there are two sides to the story.

     

    They would have sat down and ran through numbers and realised they needed to attract million's of players to break even and unfortuntely a persistent world with actions that you described are not ideal for driving revenue.  I personally think they are better suited to Indy games like Fallen Earth or EvE. 

    I wish the same as you but if they can't make a profit then they can't do it. 

    I am waiting for that MMO to come out that has what you say and you know that actions you take affect someone or something somewhere else.  Although SWTOR could be a lot more its nothing compared to the pig which is Star Trek.  Star Trek was an arcade shooter, it was beyond depressing.

     

  • PuremallacePuremallace Phoenix, AZPosts: 1,856Member

    Not to be mean, but I hope Bioware does not listen to a single thing on the forums. Rift just got game of the year and they are seeing hits from TOR because it is Star Wars + Bioware

     

    Rift just proves you can give people a crap ton of the stuff they request and people will still treat you like crap. Most of people playing mmo's IMO are hypocrites and I can not stand most of you.

     

    Don;t do anything Bioware is my advice. As soon as you answer one complaint another cry baby shows up to complain about something else. DO NOT DO ANYTHING when it comes to class balance....pvp...pve...ANYTHING

     

     

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Yamota
    First of I would like to say that what Bioware has produced is not bad. It is a solid game with responsive controls, good UI, well done gfx and sound, interesting storylines etc but every time when I think of this game I feel this game could have been so much more.
    Imagine for example looking up and seeing an X-Wing fly through the sky and you would know that this ship is controlled by another person. Then imagine the same X-Wing going into space and docking with a nebulon frigate (name?), which is owned by a mega player run corporation.
    In that ship you would have real quarters, no instanced, which player could own and have other visit. You can continue with this thought experiment but I feel, well I know, that Bioware did not at all tried to re-create the SW universe in an MMORPG but just focus on ground combat, instances etc.
    Really dont understand why companies aren't thinking big when they have such an IP on their hands. It was similar with Star Trek Online, a stupid space shooter instead of trying to create a persistant Star Trek World which can be about so much more than just instanced combat.
    For example, what if Bioware took all the money they spent on voice acting and instead tried to create an interesting persistant world. I for one think the game would be much better as a result, a much better MMORPG that is. After all, what do I care about voice acting? I can watch a real movie if I want some acting.


    Bioware knew they would make more money and attract more players by creating a story driven game, versus trying to recreate Eve, but with a Star Wars skin.

    For a lot of people, a virtual world is not the goal at all. The goal is something fun to play that isn't a hobby or a second job, but 'just a game'. For whatever reason, there are more people spending money on 'just games' than people spending money on virtual worlds.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • NethermancerNethermancer Toronto, ONPosts: 520Member

    I dunno Bioware is not that stupid. They did what bioware does best and left it at that. Why would you expect bioware to make a ccp game?? 

    Playing: PO, EVE
    Waiting for: WoD
    Favourite MMOs: VG, EVE, FE and DDO
    Any person who expresses rage and loathing for an MMO is preposterous. He or she is like a person who has put on full armor and attacked a hot fudge sundae.

  • RaysheRayshe London, ONPosts: 1,284Member

    I played this game in the closed beta from the start. one thing i noticed was, every new build made me like the game less. there was a build where practically all gear could be modded (passed say lvl 10) every build after that took more and more away from the game.

     

    so honestly this game was amazing, then the next build hit.... and the next build.... and the next build. now i cant even stand to look at it.

     

    honestly when it comes to the space flight, i enjoyed it for a simple reason. it was cinematic. when you are given free flight you lose alot of the cinematic capablity since you are most likely going to miss anything cool that happens. i posted time and time again a way to make it multiplayer and have each match be different. it wasnt a overly hard method either.

     

    use a multi path, when playing single player you would go to 1 of 4 paths for example. when you switch over to multi player you have other ships flying with you. this could also be used for PVP for matches where your trying to take out the space station.

     

    however this system was ignored for the 30 threads made by the same general people who wanted free flight. and if it wasnt ignored by them, it was mistaken for a "We want Free flight" Thread

    Because i can.
    I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
    Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  • NethermancerNethermancer Toronto, ONPosts: 520Member

    Originally posted by Puremallace

    Not to be mean, but I hope Bioware does not listen to a single thing on the forums. Rift just got game of the year and they are seeing hits from TOR because it is Star Wars + Bioware

     

    Rift just proves you can give people a crap ton of the stuff they request and people will still treat you like crap. Most of people playing mmo's IMO are hypocrites and I can not stand most of you.

     

    Don;t do anything Bioware is my advice. As soon as you answer one complaint another cry baby shows up to complain about something else. DO NOT DO ANYTHING when it comes to class balance....pvp...pve...ANYTHING

     

     

    lol i hate this attitude that all MMO'ers are hypocrites.......there are a lot fo people out there with different opinions on how a game should be so you get all kinds of suggestions. Someone will always hate any feature added. You WILL alwyas have people crying about everything. ITS NOT HYPOCRITICAL ITS DIFFERENT PEOPLES OPINIONS.

    Playing: PO, EVE
    Waiting for: WoD
    Favourite MMOs: VG, EVE, FE and DDO
    Any person who expresses rage and loathing for an MMO is preposterous. He or she is like a person who has put on full armor and attacked a hot fudge sundae.

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