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Biggest immersion killing feature - the static world.

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  • fadisfadis funkg, GAPosts: 469Member

    Originally posted by sanosukex

    Originally posted by fadis

    It must be the crap engine they used to make TOR.

     

    There is a reason there is so little character customization... lack of ambient noise... lack of high-res textures... lack of mobile npcs... lack of AA... and the list goes on...

     

     

    not true go on youtube and look at videos of the heroengine.. the engine itself is capable of a lot of things it just depends how much further they want to develop on top of the engine. I do agree they could of chosen a better engine though

     I have seen the Youtube videos.

    Although it looks like the engine has a lot of features - it doesn't look to perform very well.  If there is another explanation why TOR is missing so many of the items mentioned above... and please don't tell me they aren't important, weren't noticed... or they didn't have time! 

  • sanosukexsanosukex Los Angeles, CAPosts: 1,836Member

    Originally posted by Kuinn

     

    Okay this I dont understand really, there might be some child running in WoW's "city" - but the fact is that game does not have cities other than the main ones. From Crossroads to Tarren Mill through Darkshire, all the "cities" or quest hubs are made of 1-4 small cottages in a very small area. That's not immersive or "deep" or anything like that, that's just a practical quest hub pretending to be a town if you listen to the NPC's, when in TOR you have many many big actual city-looking areas, with big and tall buildings and a lot of space in every direction. Many cities have multiple speeder taxi locations because they are so big.

     

    Second, you might want to level past the two first areas because the worlds get a lot more open after that. Also, if you are Republic the first areas are two times more linear than the Empire ones, I dont know the reason for this. Hutta and Dromund Kaas are alot more open than the Trooper starting area or Coruscant.

    I wouldn't call Hutta "open" in anyway not even close... ill agree WoW is'nt very immersive at all BUT its art style does a much better job of making you feel part of the world than TOR. But WoW the story isn't as involved as TOR's not even close so it's really not as noticable to me at least than it is in TOR.. also maybe I just expect little more from a pretty much 2012 release.. guess I expect to much..

  • KuinnKuinn MestaPosts: 2,093Member

    Originally posted by fadis

    1.   No.  It's for a quest.

    2.  Get back to me the first time an MMO launches and you hear "yeah, after launch we're going to let go or move most of our development talent and really scale back the speed at which we improve the game and/or release new content."

    Money talks.  If TOR falls below whatever expectations are - talent will moved on to other projects real fast.

     

     

    1. Okay that's fine, there's still the dozens+ hidden and special areas I was talking about (though what does it matter if the workshop is a quest area either if someone just wants to find places like this).

     

    2. I'll get back to you when I actually hear anything of that sort one way or the other, besides this time.

  • fadisfadis funkg, GAPosts: 469Member

    Originally posted by Vhaln

    Originally posted by Kuinn

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    I always thought it would have been really fun to just explore Coruscant.  See the wealthy sections and the slums below, find interesting shops and hidden easter eggs.  But it just isn't there.  It's basically a staging area for story and quests and that's what it feels like.

     

    There actually are hidden places, easter eggs, and I also found a workshop of some mini dudes, I dont think the place had any purpose for questing or such.

     

    There's some places and hidden paths that I really had to use ninja jumps and super-moves to get to, and I'm not only talking about some datacron locations, they are the easy ones, it's the chest locations or some other misc areas that are the most fun to discover (there's also soloable boss elites in some scenery huts etc, took me 5 minutes to kill one in particular, and the price was great, nice stuff).

     

    I was looking forward to seeing Coruscant also, and just can't believe they even made that feel like its not really a city - the whole planet is supposed to be a city, and yet somehow, you run around in a part of it, where you can only see the city in the distance.  It's not even about exploration for me, so much as just thinking it'd be a cool place to experience in a game.. but this isn't even about the static environment, so much as the stark lifeless map design itself.

     

    Coruscant = city of grey and brown tunnels.

    Taris = planet of 5 swamp textures.

    Nar Shaddaa = planet of darker grey and darker brown tunnels.

    Things improve a bit after those 3... but it's not a particularly visually impressive beginning to your Republic journey.

  • KuinnKuinn MestaPosts: 2,093Member

    Originally posted by sanosukex

    Originally posted by Kuinn



     

    Okay this I dont understand really, there might be some child running in WoW's "city" - but the fact is that game does not have cities other than the main ones. From Crossroads to Tarren Mill through Darkshire, all the "cities" or quest hubs are made of 1-4 small cottages in a very small area. That's not immersive or "deep" or anything like that, that's just a practical quest hub pretending to be a town if you listen to the NPC's, when in TOR you have many many big actual city-looking areas, with big and tall buildings and a lot of space in every direction. Many cities have multiple speeder taxi locations because they are so big.

     

    Second, you might want to level past the two first areas because the worlds get a lot more open after that. Also, if you are Republic the first areas are two times more linear than the Empire ones, I dont know the reason for this. Hutta and Dromund Kaas are alot more open than the Trooper starting area or Coruscant.

    I wouldn't call Hutta "open" in anyway not even close... ill agree WoW is'nt very immersive at all BUT its art style does a much better job of making you feel part of the world than TOR. But WoW the story isn't as involved as TOR's not even close so it's really not as noticable to me at least than it is in TOR.. also maybe I just expect little more from a pretty much 2012 release.. guess I expect to much..

     

    I would call Hutta open because right after the start I could go pretty much in all directions and there were several places that I had no quest log interest in, even though as a starter planet it is very small. Compared to the Trooper starting area where I basically could NOT go in any direction because something was always blocking it.

  • sanosukexsanosukex Los Angeles, CAPosts: 1,836Member

    Originally posted by fadis

    Originally posted by sanosukex


    Originally posted by fadis

    It must be the crap engine they used to make TOR.

     

    There is a reason there is so little character customization... lack of ambient noise... lack of high-res textures... lack of mobile npcs... lack of AA... and the list goes on...

     

     

    not true go on youtube and look at videos of the heroengine.. the engine itself is capable of a lot of things it just depends how much further they want to develop on top of the engine. I do agree they could of chosen a better engine though

     I have seen the Youtube videos.

    Although it looks like the engine has a lot of features - it doesn't look to perform very well.  If there is another explanation why TOR is missing so many of the items mentioned above... and please don't tell me they aren't important, weren't noticed... or they didn't have time! 

    i think they either didn't think people would notice since they spent so much time on the voices and story or they really did spend all there budget on that and didn't have enough left over to create all that other stuff.. honestly don't know but it could be the engine but just seems silly sense the engine obviously can handle a lot more that they show.. performance to me doesn't seem like a great reason not to include toggable features since people can just lower the detail if there systems can't handle it.

  • sanosukexsanosukex Los Angeles, CAPosts: 1,836Member

    Originally posted by Kuinn

     

    I would call Hutta open because right after the start I could go pretty much in all directions and there were several places that I had no quest log interest in, even though as a starter planet it is very small. Compared to the Trooper starting area where I basically could NOT go in any direction because something was always blocking it.

    if you wan't to compare WoW since you did earlier you could call the barrens open.. honestly you could call any of the starter zones in WoW more "open"  feeling, starter worlds here are so small and confined then to make everything so dull with no dynamic events, npcs all over doing nothing but the same emote over and over, or standing in set locations in spawns of 3, no conflict really going on around you it just makes it stick out so much more.

  • SupersoupsSupersoups New Orleans, LAPosts: 1,004Member

    As much as static world is a problem such a heated discussions on these forums are wasted. Best place for this topic is on official forums and keep it up and going. I have seen a lot of topics where devs participate in discussion.

    image

  • sanosukexsanosukex Los Angeles, CAPosts: 1,836Member

    Originally posted by Supersoups

    As much as static world is a problem such a heated discussions on these forums are wasted. Best place for this topic is on official forums and keep it up and going. I have seen a lot of topics where devs participate in discussion.

    I got the discussion going there as well. Best to spread it out over as many forums as possible so more people give feedback about it

  • SupersoupsSupersoups New Orleans, LAPosts: 1,004Member

    Originally posted by sanosukex

    Originally posted by Supersoups

    As much as static world is a problem such a heated discussions on these forums are wasted. Best place for this topic is on official forums and keep it up and going. I have seen a lot of topics where devs participate in discussion.

    I got the discussion going there as well. Best to spread it out over as many forums as possible so more people give feedback about it

    Yeah but star wars devs do not read these forums and some replies have very neat ideas which could help with betterment of game.

    image

  • VhalnVhaln Chicago, ILPosts: 3,159Member

    Originally posted by Supersoups

    Originally posted by sanosukex


    Originally posted by Supersoups

    As much as static world is a problem such a heated discussions on these forums are wasted. Best place for this topic is on official forums and keep it up and going. I have seen a lot of topics where devs participate in discussion.

    I got the discussion going there as well. Best to spread it out over as many forums as possible so more people give feedback about it

    Yeah but star wars devs do not read these forums and some replies have very neat ideas which could help with betterment of game.

     

    I actually don't care what the devs read, because I don't expect to see any changes.  I just prefer to discuss things here, because I'm more interested in the MMORPG genre than in TOR specifically.  TOR just happens to be the latest MMO, but that's not enough to get me to wade into the crazy that is their official forums.

    When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.

  • SupersoupsSupersoups New Orleans, LAPosts: 1,004Member

    Originally posted by Vhaln

    Originally posted by Supersoups


    Originally posted by sanosukex


    Originally posted by Supersoups

    As much as static world is a problem such a heated discussions on these forums are wasted. Best place for this topic is on official forums and keep it up and going. I have seen a lot of topics where devs participate in discussion.

    I got the discussion going there as well. Best to spread it out over as many forums as possible so more people give feedback about it

    Yeah but star wars devs do not read these forums and some replies have very neat ideas which could help with betterment of game.

     

    I actually don't care what the devs read, because I don't expect to see any changes.  I just prefer to discuss things here, because I'm more interested in the MMORPG genre than in TOR specifically.  TOR just happens to be the latest MMO, but that's not enough to get me to wade into the crazy that is their official forums.

    I guess i am an optimist.

    image

  • LoekiiLoekii China Hot Springs, AKPosts: 430Member

    Originally posted by Supersoups

    Yeah but star wars devs do not read these forums and some replies have very neat ideas which could help with betterment of game.

    I think submitting feedback via email tend to have a better chance of having some impact.   

     

    Forum posts get lost, or simply get shouted down, where as an email can end up being effective, if only to be 'one more' tick in the email count about thing X.

     

    In my experience, things usually do not change, unless they are losing subscriptions.    I am a firm believer that Developers generally take the 'if it ant broke (ie costing subs), then dont fix it', as well as 'developers will do the least amount of work needed, rather than doing what is better for the game'.

    image

  • KuinnKuinn MestaPosts: 2,093Member

    Originally posted by sanosukex

    Originally posted by Kuinn



     

    I would call Hutta open because right after the start I could go pretty much in all directions and there were several places that I had no quest log interest in, even though as a starter planet it is very small. Compared to the Trooper starting area where I basically could NOT go in any direction because something was always blocking it.

    if you wan't to compare WoW since you did earlier you could call the barrens open.. honestly you could call any of the starter zones in WoW more "open"  feeling, starter worlds here are so small and confined then to make everything so dull with no dynamic events, npcs all over doing nothing but the same emote over and over, or standing in set locations in spawns of 3, no conflict really going on around you it just makes it stick out so much more.

     

    Actually I dont care to compare with WoW, but it's hard to reply to someone who does compare to WoW if you are going to leave WoW out of the reply. I could also call Barrens one of the most boring zones I've ever ran through in any mmorpg, but hey, it's open!

     

    And yes, I did agree, and still agree that the game is too static. I've seen NPC's done a lot more interesting things in TOR than to just walk around like in most mmorpgs, but the problem is it takes 2 hours of gameplay to see something like that again. The density of the ambience, animation/emote and soundwise both has to be turned up and through the roof. Problem is, if Bioware sees it as something that increases lag or hinders the game performance a lot (as there is no lag at all now) they doubtfully increase the NPC interaction sadly. Hopefully they can optimize their engine a bit more and add more fluff.

  • RizelStarRizelStar Raleigh, NCPosts: 2,773Member

    It's very weird IMO that we comparing SWTOR(2011) and WOW(2004?) just in my opinion odd how would could say it's boring compared to now I'm sure it would seem boring now or more "static" in WoW compared to how SWTOR is static far as npcs and what not. 

     

     

    I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

    I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

    P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

    Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  • sanosukexsanosukex Los Angeles, CAPosts: 1,836Member

    Originally posted by RizelStar

    It's very weird IMO that we comparing SWTOR(2011) and WOW(2004?) just in my opinion odd how would could say it's boring compared to now I'm sure it would seem boring now or more "static" in WoW compared to how SWTOR is static far as npcs and what not. 

     

     

    sorry paragraph was so confusing.. pretty sure some words in there are supposed to say something else

  • TheCrow2kTheCrow2k Adelaide, AKPosts: 953Member

    Originally posted by Azaria

    Originally posted by sanosukex


    Originally posted by TheCrow2k



     

    Maybe this is what is bugging me about SWTOR but I am not sure, there is certainly something lacking. All I do know is the game feels bland and boring, even the underlying musical score is not used to great effect except in the occasional cutscene. The whole thing feels so damn uninspired and I am really dissapointed.

     

    I will keep plugging away at it because I want to like it and I am a total Starwars Nut, but right now I doubt I will sub.

    been saying this for awhile.. so many people said the story and everything make up for the lack of everything else missing.. but I don't know I have a feeling this is going to steer away a lot of people unfortunatly

    Thats what alot of people have been saying, I know I have. I think the new divide is fluff or mechanics, I DO think from watching this go on that some people prefer fluff and prefer gear grinding so thats really the target audience. Sort of a Raider story driven crowd. I dont know if thier all that worried about interactive environements. The opposite to someone like me I like a basic backdrop story but I really favor Mechanics and event driven games. I dont even like jumping if it doesn't do something useful.

    Then again if its bare bones but clean it might keep the kind of crowd RIFT keeps, but I dont think its going to win over any of the PVP crowd, I dont even think it will steal PvP players from WOW. At this rate it looks like it will settle a little under 400k in a year or so.



    Thing is the storylines Ive tried thus far (jedi Knight & bounty hunter) aren't even that interesting..... the bounty hunter one in particular is quite naff which sucks because that is the class I really wanted to play.

  • ZarynterkZarynterk Phoenix, AZPosts: 398Member

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    On this front, what bothered me were "little things" like the fact that Coruscant looked so cool but I couldn't really explore it.  Most of Coruscant is just "scenery" for the handful of actual explorable areas on the planet.

    I always thought it would have been really fun to just explore Coruscant.  See the wealthy sections and the slums below, find interesting shops and hidden easter eggs.  But it just isn't there.  It's basically a staging area for story and quests and that's what it feels like.

    I remember even in KOTOR, I felt that the first city you go to was much more interesting. 

     

    And this is exactly what the fanbois cannot defend... Bioware did an absolute lazy job, they copied the combat system from every other theme park mmo out there and added very little in innovation outside of voice over work and some superficial story work that has almost zero impact on the world.

    image

  • metalguy23metalguy23 Brooklyn, NYPosts: 90Member

    Game is absolutely terrible. I don't see what everyone's ranting and raving about. What it's Star Wars? huh it's clone wars lol. Sorry but it's empty blandness, no atmosphere whatsoever, the engine is terrible. Sorry but Bioware did a terrible job and I will not even bother with it. Beta was a borefest and I logged in, created my char and said to myself "this is it? are you kidding me?". Sorry it's overhyped garbage with some top of the line voiceovers and cutscenes, sorry but I am not paying $60 (frigging rip off for an MMO anyway) and then $15 to play some WOW/Star Wars game. Prediction: Guild Wars 2 will be the most talked about and most popular game, this will be bad memory lol.  Show me excitement like this in an MMO. When this dragon shows up chills went down my spine, never seen anything like that in an online game. 

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0nCHPl_mEU

  • Cik_AsalinCik_Asalin SoCal, CAPosts: 3,033Member

    Originally posted by Margulis

    There was another topic about this here but it got locked for whatever reason - so I'm bringing this one over.  I think this is one of the biggest problems with SWTOR right now and it doesn't seem to be getting the attention it deserves. The simple fact that the world just FEELS lifeless and static. Let me give a few examples:



    1. Cities and social hubs - Running through these feels like a library or graveyard, not a bustling hub of activity.



    2. Mobs - A very high percentage of mobs just stand in place.



    3. Critters / world creatures - Where are they? It's something you don't even really notice till they aren't there, but this game is severely lacking in them.



    4. Music / sound effects - There are large amounts of time with no music, which I think should be increased.



    All of this combined = a very static and lifeless world.



    The argument that "this is how all mmo's are" doesn't work at all, as many AAA mmo's over the last 5-8 years have had great ambient atmosphere, npc acitivty, npc conversations, and lots of creatures running around. 

    Hopefully Bioware addresses this.

    What you mentioned is not how mmo's are.  This is why that TOR is largely considered a single-player / cooperative online rpg; not a "massively multiplayer"game.

     

    It will not be addressed by Bioware. It would take another 5-years to turn this skeleton into a mmo.

  • RizelStarRizelStar Raleigh, NCPosts: 2,773Member

    Originally posted by sanosukex

    Originally posted by RizelStar

    It's very weird IMO that we comparing SWTOR(2011) and WOW(2004?) just in my opinion odd how would could say it's boring compared to now I'm sure it would seem boring now or more "static" in WoW compared to how SWTOR is static far as npcs and what not. 

     

     

    sorry paragraph was so confusing.. pretty sure some words in there are supposed to say something else

    Wow what I said indeed made no sense, just disregard that post ha ha.

    I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

    I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

    P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

    Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  • allegriaallegria San Francisco, CAPosts: 682Member

    Originally posted by metalguy23

    Game is absolutely terrible. I don't see what everyone's ranting and raving about. What it's Star Wars? huh it's clone wars lol. Sorry but it's empty blandness, no atmosphere whatsoever, the engine is terrible. Sorry but Bioware did a terrible job and I will not even bother with it. Beta was a borefest and I logged in, created my char and said to myself "this is it? are you kidding me?". Sorry it's overhyped garbage with some top of the line voiceovers and cutscenes, sorry but I am not paying $60 (frigging rip off for an MMO anyway) and then $15 to play some WOW/Star Wars game. Prediction: Guild Wars 2 will be the most talked about and most popular game, this will be bad memory lol.  Show me excitement like this in an MMO. When this dragon shows up chills went down my spine, never seen anything like that in an online game. 

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0nCHPl_mEU

    I am not defending SWTOR vs GW2 but honestly that video is horrible. Talk about a gimmick fight LOL 

    Manning Turrets ? Huge Laser ? 

    Come on, what happened to the RPG in MMORPGs ?

    sigh.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    Originally posted by allegria

    Originally posted by metalguy23

    Game is absolutely terrible. I don't see what everyone's ranting and raving about. What it's Star Wars? huh it's clone wars lol. Sorry but it's empty blandness, no atmosphere whatsoever, the engine is terrible. Sorry but Bioware did a terrible job and I will not even bother with it. Beta was a borefest and I logged in, created my char and said to myself "this is it? are you kidding me?". Sorry it's overhyped garbage with some top of the line voiceovers and cutscenes, sorry but I am not paying $60 (frigging rip off for an MMO anyway) and then $15 to play some WOW/Star Wars game. Prediction: Guild Wars 2 will be the most talked about and most popular game, this will be bad memory lol.  Show me excitement like this in an MMO. When this dragon shows up chills went down my spine, never seen anything like that in an online game. 

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0nCHPl_mEU

    I am not defending SWTOR vs GW2 but honestly that video is horrible. Talk about a gimmick fight LOL 

    Manning Turrets ? Huge Laser ? 

    Come on, what happened to the RPG in MMORPGs ?

    sigh.

    I'm not sure what you're getting at here.  I can name another RPG game where you had to man a turret at one point.  It was called Knights of the Old Republic.  I don't think having a turret makes a game any less RPG-like.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • allegriaallegria San Francisco, CAPosts: 682Member

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Originally posted by allegria


    Originally posted by metalguy23

    Game is absolutely terrible. I don't see what everyone's ranting and raving about. What it's Star Wars? huh it's clone wars lol. Sorry but it's empty blandness, no atmosphere whatsoever, the engine is terrible. Sorry but Bioware did a terrible job and I will not even bother with it. Beta was a borefest and I logged in, created my char and said to myself "this is it? are you kidding me?". Sorry it's overhyped garbage with some top of the line voiceovers and cutscenes, sorry but I am not paying $60 (frigging rip off for an MMO anyway) and then $15 to play some WOW/Star Wars game. Prediction: Guild Wars 2 will be the most talked about and most popular game, this will be bad memory lol.  Show me excitement like this in an MMO. When this dragon shows up chills went down my spine, never seen anything like that in an online game. 

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0nCHPl_mEU

    I am not defending SWTOR vs GW2 but honestly that video is horrible. Talk about a gimmick fight LOL 

    Manning Turrets ? Huge Laser ? 

    Come on, what happened to the RPG in MMORPGs ?

    sigh.

    I'm not sure what you're getting at here.  I can name another RPG game where you had to man a turret at one point.  It was called Knights of the Old Republic.  I don't think having a turret makes a game any less RPG-like.

    RPG = role playing game. Not I want to shoot some dumb laser that doesn't care what/who I am ( class etc ).

    I hated that vehicle crap in wow ( never saw that in swtor in beta but i will hate it also )

  • MargulisMargulis Glendale, AZPosts: 1,614Member

    Originally posted by Cik_Asalin

    Originally posted by Margulis

    There was another topic about this here but it got locked for whatever reason - so I'm bringing this one over.  I think this is one of the biggest problems with SWTOR right now and it doesn't seem to be getting the attention it deserves. The simple fact that the world just FEELS lifeless and static. Let me give a few examples:



    1. Cities and social hubs - Running through these feels like a library or graveyard, not a bustling hub of activity.



    2. Mobs - A very high percentage of mobs just stand in place.



    3. Critters / world creatures - Where are they? It's something you don't even really notice till they aren't there, but this game is severely lacking in them.



    4. Music / sound effects - There are large amounts of time with no music, which I think should be increased.



    All of this combined = a very static and lifeless world.



    The argument that "this is how all mmo's are" doesn't work at all, as many AAA mmo's over the last 5-8 years have had great ambient atmosphere, npc acitivty, npc conversations, and lots of creatures running around. 

    Hopefully Bioware addresses this.

    What you mentioned is not how mmo's are.  This is why that TOR is largely considered a single-player / cooperative online rpg; not a "massively multiplayer"game.

     

    It will not be addressed by Bioware. It would take another 5-years to turn this skeleton into a mmo.

    Disregard this reply I misread what the poster was trying to say originally.

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