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Originally posted by hipiap Originally posted by djmtott in that without the pre-CU depth and 'hooks' the game couldn't keep me interested consistently.
I have to ask..
Low to No Content...
Only 'depth' was Profession Template Grinds
Oh sure....you could run Terminal Missions for Credits and XP all day. Or hang out in a Cantina or Medical Center and Hope someone was online to heal Fatigue and Wounds.
Until JTL launched you didn't even have that Content pre-CU.
No FRS until Jedi got added.
Perma Death for a while....then Corpse Runs......
Oh yeah...TONS of Depth pre-CU.
Depth... like hunting for Krayts for tissues and pearls. Although pearls were still in demand the lack of a market for tissues was a reduction in depth of the game. The Ranger tracking skill was removed, so hiring a Ranger to find Krayts went away. Spider Venom was also made useless when HAM poisons and diseases went away with Combat Medic. Scores of high-valued resources were made pedestrian because Doctor buffs and stims were removed.
Camps were removed with the NGE, and although they weren't of a lot of use as far as game mechanics went they were huge for the community. As a Master Ranger, seeing the profession being removed along with trapping, camps, mask scent, etc was definitely a loss of depth.
NGE removed Creature Handler and baby critters. Players had hours of fun scouring the planets for certain baby critters and the extremely rare ones.
Back to my experience as a Master Ranger when the NGE came about, even if I stuck with my same playstyle with one of the 9 NGE classes, there was a serious reduction in critter resources needed because of the elimination of the Medic/Doctor/Combat Medic craftables.
Overall, to me depth is not about the content/quests in a game. A game with a million quests is not a game with depth. Depth comes from the different things you can do in the game. The old version of the game with full cantinas (eisley, Coronet, Theed) of dancers/musicians, hunting for resources/enhancers, PvP basebusting (in the days of TEF), the different combinations of weapons and professions, and more, absolutely provided a depth to SWG that the NGE eliminated.
Clicky collections and themepark quests is not depth. Going from 32 professions to 9 classes doesn't increase depth. Eliminating a large number of craftables doesn't increase depth. Reducing the number of important resources doesn't add to depth. So if you're making these changes that don't increase depth you're actually taking it away.
And this is just from my experience.
PS: The big three cantinas were always active in pre-CU. The Med Centers were active at the beginning of the game as well, and as time went on they did decrease in activity, but the buffing Doctors would heal your wounds.
I can see it now, Dec 15 closing ceremony... *chirp chirp chirp*, a ghost town it will be.
Originally posted by hipiap Originally posted by djmtott I was there one day #1 and I did enjoy playing for quite a few years. Of course the CU soured me on the game and NGE broke my heart, but I did have a few 'come backs' during the NGE where I did enjoy my time. Each attempt at getting back into the game ended the same; in that without the pre-CU depth and 'hooks' the game couldn't keep me interested consistently. $15 isn't a lot of money. I can spend that on the chance those final days will be entertaining. Otherwise I could see myself regretting that I didn't. Wouldn't be the first time i squandered money on that game. Even though in December I will be playing BF3, Skyrim, Saint's Row 3, and SWTOR (hopefully), I can spend a few days running around on the official servers.
Jedi was added without FRS for a year, and even then it took a while to enter the FRS because the trial took a while to figure out.
Corpse runs existed in beta, they ditched that on release. After perma death was ditched, Jedi had random skillbox decay on death and then negative XP on death after publish 9. Skillbox decay I think was the best method, you couldn't keep Guardian 4444 if you died, you'd have to grind another 4.5 million xp to get that last box back.
How long have you been playing SWG? AFTER 2005?
Originally posted by djmtott Originally posted by hipiap Originally posted by djmtott in that without the pre-CU depth and 'hooks' the game couldn't keep me interested consistently.
Camps were reintroduced and work like before.
In the place of creature handler there is now beast master, that lets any profession be beastmaster. Which turns it into a hybrid profession. Also entertainers and crafters can be one. The crafting system that was introduced for bioengineering and mutations, is very involving. Which is an improvement over creature handler. But to be fair, it misses taming, something players kept asking for. The hunting is now for DNA, for which players still have to find the specific lairs and critters.
There is now a city invasion system that totally trumps any basebusting. It also involves entertainers and crafters, both during preperation phase and invasion phase. Basebusting is shallow in comparison.
Majority doesnt want TEF anymore. That has been polled loads of time, with every time the same result.
The weapons crafting system offers now way more variety then before. All looted gear can be recrafted to provide a slight bonus. So the looted stuff is mainly about looks. And more important, crafters are always involved.
Reducing the number of important resources, bollocks. That has been changed back long ago. Food, droid engineering, bio engineering, munitions, spaceship components, these all require very specific named resources in high quality. Especially weapons crafting. The amount of different droids for example you could craft during preCU is nothing compared to now.
Vets like you always compare to NGE just after the change. Current NGE offers a lot more depth and variety then SWG ever did.
I do agree that the collection system is meh though. But they were already changing back from that. My main beef with current SWG was that collection card system with all its unique loot.
The only thing that preCU had going for was the skillsystem. But even that, which sounds nice on paper, suffered from the same flaw as AO's skillsystem (actually I think that AO's skillsystem works better). Everyone used the same few cookiecutter builds. So in practice it was just a few professions.
Dont get me wrong, the idea of a skillsystem is something I prefer over restricted classes. But so far it always comes down to minmaxers that find the few viable builds.
As for the rest, current SWG offers a lot more features then it ever did before. Sure, I would love to have current SWG with a skillsystem. But not preCU skillsystem. Both now and back then I hated the groundcombat. Back then it was superslow and now its shallow as it can get and the engine just cant handle it. And both were bugged like hell. So any other combat system could only improve ground combat.
Space combat is fine however. Ill really miss that. And the city invasions for that matter.
EDIT: No, I wont return on dec 15th. There was no reason to kill off SWG, so no way Im going to put more money in it now. Fuck LA.
Originally posted by someforumguy Originally posted by djmtott Originally posted by hipiap Originally posted by djmtott in that without the pre-CU depth and 'hooks' the game couldn't keep me interested consistently.
if the NGE truly offered more depth than the Pre-CU version, then the game wouldnt have failed as hard as it did, call it what you will, but you can't change the fact that the NGE still represents a shallow experience compared to what was there before the game was 'modified' and so many things removed from the game. the NGE was a mistake, a poorly thought through one that alienated the vast majority of the playerbase that was... if it had worked, then frankly, we wouldnt be having this discussion, and SWG wouldnt be closing in december. As for the rest.. the ones who were alienated most from the NGE were the crafters, hard to imagine how SOE failed to recognise just how large a percentage of the games population the crafting community represented, as was the Entertainment community.. or as i prefer to think of them, the 'social' gamers.. SWG catered to crafters, it catered to Socialisers, and it catered to explorers, it also catered to the combat centric players, but it did so fairly equally.. .. the NGE on the other hand.. didnt. and still.. doesnt..
Originally posted by Phry Originally posted by someforumguy Originally posted by djmtott Originally posted by hipiap Originally posted by djmtott in that without the pre-CU depth and 'hooks' the game couldn't keep me interested consistently.
No matter what implementation of SWG, the engine is just crappy and dated. AO suffers from the same problem. Both these games would never become very popular anymore. PVP will always be laggy, there will never be a working collision detection, so groundcombat will always be poor compared to any newer MMO. It was crappy to begin with. Everyone knows by now that the numbers were going down already before NGE. NGE was just a very stupid decision trying to combat that decline.
But that doesnt say anything about current SWG in comparison with PreCU. In terms of variety in features, it offers more then ever. Especially for crafters. They are now involved in every looted gear. If the combat player wants to have the best out of his loot or reward, he needs a crafter with top resources and crafting environment to recraft it. At the same time they are dependant on combat centric players for junk and looted gear (for reengineering).
As for the socialisers, they came up with the chronicle system for players to create their own content. But some things havent changed. Most players approach everything as a grind (just like spingroups in the old days), so this chronicle system is just another grind in their eyes to tackle.
Only a minority actually uses SWG to rp, socialise and as sandbox. The majority just has to grind everything to max as fast as possible. So no changes there
Even the city invasion system gives entertainers and crafters a role now. This wasnt the case at all with the basebusting. I think more then ever that all combat players, entertainers and crafters are catered for.
I have enough of SWG, enough of my share of fun. The world and the community has changed so much, there is nothing for me to go back for. I will let my rifleman/CH RIP forever, including the baby creatures he just tamed right before I log out for good.
The following statement is falseThe previous statement is true
You need to realise that most of the things that SWG lacks in your eyes, has been asked for by the current playerbase. It has a lot of former preCU players still. A lot of these things have been reintroduced in one form of another (if it doesnt fit in current lvl based system). Dont make the mistake to think that early NGE is the same as now. It has been expanded a lot.
The engine however is still just as crappy. So the only great SWG would be with a new engine that can handle the combat in large numbers of players. Still, even with current engine it could continue to survive. SOE even admitted this. It hasnt been shutdown because it wasnt viable anymore. Its the bloody SW licence!
Originally posted by someforumguy
I've played SWG through all phases of the game. I'm comparing the old system to how the current system is now.
Camps actually were improved. They didn't do much before, but they have more of a purpose now. My regret in this area is that everyone can use them so they became mundane objects. Before when a Master Ranger dropped a large camp it was a cool wonder to see. Now it's just some thing you've seen plenty of times, and anyone can drop one.
Beast Master is nowhere near as fun as Creature Handler was. Growing critters in a tube is not nearly as cool as hunting down rare critters and hoping to find a baby you could tame. To tame it and raise it was something special, and that's why the profession was so loved and revered. Worlds better than hunting for DNA in the current system.
City invasions are nowhere nearly as cool as basebusting. And I'm not talking about where you and 40+ players and alts stand around to soak up GCW points. I'm talking about basebusting where you and your entire guild (and allies) sat there protecting it from the hordes of the opposite faction. You didn't know if they were coming. You didn't know when they were coming. And if you failed your base was gone. City invasions are lame because if you lose then there's always later in the day to try it again. No pride on the line. In the old days of basebusting it was a matter of pride to have your base standing for as long as you can. Back when the number of bases on the entire server could be counted on one hand.
Weapons crafting is better now than it was after the NGE launched, but it still sucks compared to pre-NGE because of one simple fact; and that's that all weapons now are capped. It doesn't matter how good your resources are over a certain point, your weapons will be no better than the next guy as long as his resources are just good enough. You just have to get over that threshold, and everything after that point is wasted. It used to be that the best materials made the best weapons. Now no matter how good your stuff is you get your stats capped.
Think of all the important resources required by crafting health stims, rez packs, doctor buffs, poisons, diseases, etc... All of those important resources, unless also needed by something that was not removed, were made irrelevant. Lokian Wild Wheat and Talusian Water Vapor.. those used to be some of the most sought after quality resources... now? Talusian Avian Meat... the amount of orders I filled for that as a ranger back in the day was huge? Any idea what those we needed for? You might be able to craft more things now, but they generally take the same things they used to. New droid schematics use the same resources the old schematics called for.
And yes, the majority of SWG players didn't want TEF anymore, but that doesn't mean it was better for the game. It's because they wanted to kill faction MOBs with impunity and be safe from opposing players. That's carebear. It killed immersion when as an overt Imperial you see a Rebel laying waste to your faction MOBs right next to you and you couldn't do anything about it. Carebear players didn't want to get beat by other PVP-centric players. They didn't want to lose and then have it rubbed in their face. So they were catered to and really soured the game for a large number of players.
Staying away as i have no data about my accounts anymore - RIP SWG!
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLIJohnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
I might log in but I have done so a couple times since the NGE and I felt nothing... I just felt like I was playing a crummy MMO and I quickly got bored. I couldn't even see my old characters due to some issue that I read about, I can't remember now, but it was a hassle to fix so I just made a new character.
I just wish I had a better memory... The memories of SWG at its height are slowly corroding in my mind I can hardly recall them.
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
My biggest problem with the NGE was removing the proffession skill sytem, and replacing it with fixed classes (Jedi, what BS). No matter how much NGE may have done to improve the game, the new class system killed it for me.
I might pop in, unless I get my SWTOR headstart by then.
Just wondering if anyone has heard what the grand finale will be?
Corellian RunJedi Sentinel
Originally posted by Bogie Just wondering if anyone has heard what the grand finale will be?
It ends in 2 days...and no details - SOE is always timely like that. Expect the final update to be on Thursday.
If they offered it for free, like NCS did for Tabula Rasa, I'd do it.
Originally posted by someforumguy You need to realise that most of the things that SWG lacks in your eyes, has been asked for by the current playerbase. It has a lot of former preCU players still. A lot of these things have been reintroduced in one form of another (if it doesnt fit in current lvl based system). Dont make the mistake to think that early NGE is the same as now. It has been expanded a lot. The engine however is still just as crappy. So the only great SWG would be with a new engine that can handle the combat in large numbers of players. Still, even with current engine it could continue to survive. SOE even admitted this. It hasnt been shutdown because it wasnt viable anymore. Its the bloody SW licence!
Bullshit... thats like saying it was making money. IT IS A BUSINESS... now are you going to tell me the game was doing so well that the server shut downs were ALL PART OF SOME great master plan to make more people pay for the game? lol...
No.. and no...
Enough with the fanboi crap. Come back to earth and be logical. SWG does not have alot of Pre- CU players... in fact most left in droves.. on Bria they did and we all know it. Sure the Engine is a issue... but that has nothing to do with all of the shutting down.
If this was the case Everquest would have been gone years ago - so there is your answer to your logic there.
SW license if it was making money would still be there and the game still going. Period... don't be stupid. If the game was making a million bucks profit a month do not think it would not still be running lol.
You cannot butter up the NGE - you cannot make it better then what we really know it is and what it did. So while you think you know... there is things said and done that people use logic and cannot get over. i.e. WHEN JOHN SMEDLEY SAYS SORRY HE MADE A MISTAKE .... then yeah see there is a problem with most people paying for it.
i.e. people like ME -- who say "WTF"??? Yeah your right I will not pay for your mistake that is known as the biggest MMO Blunder... good luck"..... So that is why the game is going away...
Not because of the Lic.... but because it is not making enough money plain and simple business.. make no mistake.
SWTOR helped, due to it being well taken too.... so that preassure to NOT suck is out the window...lol.
What I love about this... is that while the funny thing is trying to bring back old content which they REMOVED IN THE FIRST PLACE IS ALL THINGS AND TIME THEY COULD HAVE USED TO ADD MORE CONTENT AND FIX THE OLD SYSTEM.
SO GRATS... you are now getting back or were getting back OLD THINGS WE ALREADY HAD AND LIKED>>> how original... except now its in a crappy system with a free CLICK ON HANS HEAD game...lol.
The logic escapes me... and so it seems it escaped SOE for now losing SWG. Looks like they didnt think that out.
It kills me seeing the posts like this.. of "WELL HEY THEY ARE TRYING TO BRING BACK XXXX kinda like before"... when in fact you should be asking yourself -- :"WHY DID THEY TAKE IT OUT IN THE FIRST PLACE?"....
So do twice the work... except with less people because they didnt do it right in the first place.. "... yep good logic.. see how well that worked for them?
Pretty funny seeing that.. always loved those posts... of the "THEY ADDED IT BACK COME BACK TO THE GAME ones"... classic..
You know SWG was the entire reason I ever found this site. It was the place to be for the NGE hater back in the day.
I just got to the point where I don't even like people bringing up the game. It either tuns into some stupid arguement over subjective material... or thinking about a game that isn't and hasn't been for years.
Ultima Online is kind of the same deal.. even tho its still running it certainly isn't the game I played. I bring it up because SWG was the obvious next step for me a former UO player.
Enjoy your memories if you liked the game. If you hated it.. well perhaps you can be happy now at its demise. *waves*
Originally posted by Antarious You know SWG was the entire reason I ever found this site. It was the place to be for the NGE hater back in the day. I just got to the point where I don't even like people bringing up the game. It either tuns into some stupid arguement over subjective material... or thinking about a game that isn't and hasn't been for years. Ultima Online is kind of the same deal.. even tho its still running it certainly isn't the game I played. I bring it up because SWG was the obvious next step for me a former UO player. Enjoy your memories if you liked the game. If you hated it.. well perhaps you can be happy now at its demise. *waves*
Yep there will always be something good about being able to say "I told you so".... for sure.. lol