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General: The No Elves Manifesto

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  • BlasphimBlasphim San Diego, CAPosts: 349Member Common

     




    Originally posted by nyxxis There are things that most that have posted here have forgotton is, dark, brooding, hateful elves(for those that support but dont want the "traditional" elf) dont really fit into coop gameplay. You want your elves filled with hate and minds of death and destruction, sitting somewhere spending what part of their days not filled with endless killing, thinking about killing more. How exactly do you justify them for the "Hey, lets go clear the dungeon of evil" gameplay. Sure you can make them work to kill off "the good guys" but that gets into factional warfare that I think has been lost since the days of factions dungeon camping for kills in UO. Sure elves dont have to always be pretty boys, but they serve a purpose. They serve as the "good guy" with bonus to magic and bow use. The elf is the one that stands in the back of the party sending magical death forward or raining down a hail of arrows on the "bad guy" paying way to much attention to the guy with the sheild. Personally I dont think Cassandra or the other elf "haters" truely hate elves. I think you all hate that you have yet to come up with a version of them that has stood the test of time. I think your pissed because your ideas for elves or elven like races have fell off to the wayside. Wheres the orc/orcish hate? I am tired off all the ugly must kill everything orc! Why do they have to always be portrayed as ugly, mindless, bloodthirsty brutes? Ahh see  no one carse because they serve their purpose. "Omg I hate those elves ohh so pretty, why do they always have to be tall good looking creatures? Tolkien 's elves saturate the fantasy mmo genre! How dare they!" Lets not forget that Tolkien's orc's used to be high elves "fallen from grace" isnt that what you elf haters wanted? May the elf never die! May the traditional fantasy MMO never die! I love my bow, love my arrrows, I love standing back turning the enemy into a walking pin cushion(and mmos that actually show the arrows sticking out of the body).


     



    Orcs in general haven't seen the "spotlight" in as many stories and rpgs as the elves have.  Warcraft, and Elder Scrolls are the first two games I can think of that had orc characters that even had a portion of game time spotlight (I am sure there are more). For the most part orcs have been the "go-to" bad guy of many a fantasy tale and game. Hell think about your low level pnp experiences, many of your first enemies were orc, or orc-kin. I would love to see more stories about orcs defying the stereotype (Thrall has become bland, and the only other ones I can think of come from Shadowrun novels).

    I think the only reason that the "Tolkien" type of elf (I use quotes cause there were a few, less than savory elves that were not orcs), has remained prevalent, is because the frame work of said elves has been reused, over and over again. I don't need murderous blood rage filled elves whose only thoughts are mass genocide, but how about elves that aren't (once again) daisy eatin, tree huggin, leaf wearin, sparkly skinned pansies, who seem to be written more emo like than the typical 17 year old Twilight fan.

    How bout some grit, some grime, some anti-heroism. Ever wonder why Batman, John McClane, Dirty Harry, Riddick and Wolverine (just to name a few), are extremely popular characters? They personify the anti-hero, they are still at the core good characters, but they are willing to go outside the norm to get the job done. They are not pretty, dainty do gooders that whimper at the scuffing of their boots. The only elf I can think of at the moment who was like that was Lucipher from Poison Elves.

     

    Edit: Wow, the editor seriously mucked up that quote! 

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,031Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Blasphim

    Your forgetting Greyhawk my friend, the first "setting" for DnD.

    Edit:  I will agree however, that many seem to take from what FR has built, but one could even make the connection that FR took from Tolkien in many of it's storylines and world events and stereotypes.

    Yeah, never liked that setting much, but the reason I didn't mention it is because at least some people here know of DL and FR, and maybe even Ravenloft. Greyhawk, Spelljammers and Fallen sun are setting that you me, and maybe someone else have heard about.

    And of course did FR took a lot from Tolkien and made it cheesier. But Greenwood and Grubb do know how to make good stories and possibilities. Few other worlds and no MMO world have really been close to that.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,031Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by nyxxis

    There are things that most that have posted here have forgotton is, dark, brooding, hateful elves(for those that support but dont want the "traditional" elf) dont really fit into coop gameplay. You want your elves filled with hate and minds of death and destruction, sitting somewhere spending what part of their days not filled with endless killing, thinking about killing more. How exactly do you justify them for the "Hey, lets go clear the dungeon of evil" gameplay. Sure you can make them work to kill off "the good guys" but that gets into factional warfare that I think has been lost since the days of factions dungeon camping for kills in UO.

    Sure elves dont have to always be pretty boys, but they serve a purpose. They serve as the "good guy" with bonus to magic and bow use. The elf is the one that stands in the back of the party sending magical death forward or raining down a hail of arrows on the "bad guy" paying way to much attention to the guy with the sheild.

    Personally I dont think Cassandra or the other elf "haters" truely hate elves. I think you all hate that you have yet to come up with a version of them that has stood the test of time. I think your pissed because your ideas for elves or elven like races have fell off to the wayside.

    Wheres the orc/orcish hate? I am tired off all the ugly must kill everything orc! Why do they have to always be portrayed as ugly, mindless, bloodthirsty brutes? Ahh see  no one carse because they serve their purpose. "Omg I hate those elves ohh so pretty, why do they always have to be tall good looking creatures? Tolkien 's elves saturate the fantasy mmo genre! How dare they!" Lets not forget that Tolkien's orc's used to be high elves "fallen from grace" isnt that what you elf haters wanted?

    May the elf never die! May the traditional fantasy MMO never die! I love my bow, love my arrrows, I love standing back turning the enemy into a walking pin cushion(and mmos that actually show the arrows sticking out of the body).

    The problem with the elves is that they are so stereotypical usually. The drows are indeed evil, but they ain't treehugging poets that want to dance all the time. 

    You could do some good non stereotypical elves as well, but the P&P game "Gemini" is the only one I can think off right now that succeded.

    I neither like the gnome stereotype with small annoying things that invent dangerous crap and similar stuff every single MMO seems to have. A little originality comes far but elves in MMO is more stereotypical than a hill billy with a jug of moonshine.

  • bamdorfbamdorf Chatham, NJPosts: 150Member

    Ok, Ok, I will try to be serious for a moment.   "The No Elves Manifesto" is pointless.    Somewhat like the Occupy movement, however deeply felt, it does not provide a positive action program, just complains about what it doesn't like.   Useless.

    Personally, I don't like slasher movies.    To use a term like "overdone", etc. though does no good, because these terrible wastes of film are made because people who DO like them pay for them.    God only knows why, but that isn't the point.  

    Why is the MMO field dominated by Tolkienesque creatures?    Look at the sales/subs numbers.    So what a "No Elves Manifesto" is really saying is --- all you people out there enjoying elves in MMOs are stupid, boring idiots.    Very helpful.

    But there is one additional point:   there have been several posts that talk about high fantasy as unimaginative.    Excuse me?  LIke or hate Tolkein, the body of work is the single greatest epic realization of an imaginary world yet created.    It literally spans thousands of years from the dawn of time with fully detailed cultures including invented languages, so don't tell me it is not imaginative.    The copiers, yes, but let's make that distincition as clear as possible.    (Lord of the Rings is only a more recent story line --- try reading The Children of Hurin for instance.)

    Elves were popular even before LIv Tyler, hard to believe though that may be.  Oops, I couldn't stay serious.   Sorry.

     

     

    ---------------------------
    Rose-lipped maidens,
    Light-foot lads...

  • ThaneUlfgarThaneUlfgar Akron, OHPosts: 283Member

    I like fantasy, and elves don't bother me. I have 0 interest in any mmo that isn't fantasy or at least set in medieval times or antiquity.

  • EverSkellyEverSkelly AlytusPosts: 334Member

    Originally posted by Lonzo

    Why all the hate about high fantasy mmos? 

    We dont even have ONE single high fantasy mmo out that is is worth it to play right now...

     

    Still waiting for EQ3! :-)

    unfortunately, EQNext will not be a gem of high fantasy. It will be another fucked up cartoony childish WoW clone. sorry for off-topic.

  • KanethKaneth Posts: 1,930Member Uncommon

    The Elder Scrolls model of elves, especially in Skyrim, are a good example of elves done in a manner that isn't sterotypical, but yet can still retain the traditional elf characteristics. The Thalmar faction in Skyrim is a good example of not stereotypical elves yet retain traditional elf like qualities. They truly are bastards through and through though.

    If we want more variety in our fantasy settings, then we need to support the games that attempt to break molds. Guild Wars 1 and 2 don't feature elves (although Sylvari could be an arguable nod towards elves). However, even Sylvari would be mostly non-traditional elf like creatures. They are the youngest race in the world, and are largely ignorant of the world around them, whereas elves are traditionally are old and have vast quantities of knowledge of the world around them.

    The Asheron's Call setting is also an excellent example of how to portray fantasy without elves. Really wish Turbine would go back to their roots and make a proper addition to the Asheron's Call universe.

     

  • OzivoisOzivois Phoenix, AZPosts: 598Member

    Elves are way better than any of the races that recent MMO's have been introducing. I will take an elf over a teddy bear, animal-faced creature or anime cat-lady every time.

     

  • uncletomauncletoma Santa Margherita LigurePosts: 159Member

    As Khazad where i can sign this manifesto?

    Baruk Khazad, Khazad ai-menu!

  • ComnitusComnitus Williamsburg, VAPosts: 2,462Member

    I'm as tired of the fantasy elf stereotype as the next guy, but we have to keep in mind that a creature which is radically different will not be accepted as an elf; it must be called something else. No, just because it has pointy ears does not make it an elf. A good start would be to find out from which historical mythos the current stereotype developed, then pick a different culture and go from there.

    image

  • casskhawcasskhaw Richmond HillsPosts: 19Member

    Originally posted by Ozivois

    Elves are way better than any of the races that recent MMO's have been introducing. I will take an elf over a teddy bear, animal-faced creature or anime cat-lady every time.

     




     

    ... fair enough. I think we need to rename this column to "NO MORE GODDAMN CLICHES"

  • lestuslestus WellingtonPosts: 31Member
    Nice writeup, hehe, I do play dark elf in lin2, and that's about the only fantasy I play, I also play Eve and its great, looking forward to WildStar as well
  • lestuslestus WellingtonPosts: 31Member
    Nice write, hehe, I do play a dark elf in lin2, but I also play Eve and looking forward to wild star as well
  • BlasphimBlasphim San Diego, CAPosts: 349Member Common

    Originally posted by casskhaw



    Originally posted by Ozivois



    Elves are way better than any of the races that recent MMO's have been introducing. I will take an elf over a teddy bear, animal-faced creature or anime cat-lady every time.





     










     

    ... fair enough. I think we need to rename this column to "NO MORE GODDAMN CLICHES"

    Agreed.

  • soulmirrorsoulmirror Jax, FLPosts: 112Member

    1) No Elves

    2) No Klingons

    3) No Jedi's

    4) No Cylons

    5) Not  2 Vs 2 or 3 Vs 3

      Do something different, develop an MMO with new lore. Don't bow down to players and publishers and release a game that does not have a game guide on release day.  Keep all the testing inhouse or locked down, that was a release is a release, not a yawner, because everyone already knows about the game.

    I personally would like to see space based, but really it does not matter, as long as there is a world(s) to explore, cities and nations to build.  The last thing is make the game about the journey, not the destination.

     

     

  • Mordred1Mordred1 BrasPosts: 77Member

    No, I'm not tired of high fantasy, elves, dwarves or whatever mmo race.

    What I'm tired of is of people focusing the game's theme instead of how it plays. Who cares if it's fantasy, space or wild west? We need a good new sandbox game or something innovative to shake this stagnant genre.

    I could care less if I'm playing Legolas or the Terminator, just give me a good mmorpg.

  • blackcat35blackcat35 Lake Orion, MIPosts: 479Member

    You know, vulcans/spock are elves in space.  We need more elves and dragons in mmorpgs.

    ==========================
    The game is dead not, this game is good we make it and Romania Tv give it 5 goat heads, this is good rating for game.

  • PanzakatPanzakat MartmeesterstraatPosts: 24Member

    Originally posted by WhiteLantern

    Originally posted by idgarad

    Give me 8 million and I'll give you a Dune MMO.

    Would that be the ultimate sandbox?


     

    lol

  • PukeBucketPukeBucket Beaverton, ORPosts: 867Member


    Originally posted by plescure
    Feckin Elves!! coming over here!! taking our jobs!! stealing our women!! 

    JARRROBBSS!

    I once played a lute and sang about the stars. JORARRBBS!

    I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.

  • sazabisazabi VilniusPosts: 389Member

    hmmm dragons...

    they are good when they are done sparsely... but ya know... we got such a huge dose of them in skyrim that... ;D i think we got enough of them for a few years.

     

    wizards - with this one ill disagree. most games that had 'wizard' character actually had spontanous casting sorcerer of some kind. going back to the dnd version of wizard we would have the inteligent versatile trickster.  i thought diablo 3 will have it, but the return of chainlightning, blizzard and meteor trio i guess im a little bit disappointed. what im saying is that wizard can be done in many ways, but devs choose the most straightfoward three element path which is simply boring.

     

    elves... hmm... yea.. i guess i wasnt much of a fan of elves. in dnd video games, lotr movies and games, countless fantasy games... i didnt quite like elves.

    the trio of tree lovers, dark skinned evil ones and arrogant mages... it got a little boring.

    in all my gaming career the only elves that i liked were dunmer in morrowind - they simply didnt look fake, eldar from wh40k could be considered as space elves.. they were pretty cool.

     

    orcs... i loved orcs in warcraft 3, not as much in world of warcraft. the asian versions from lets say lineage 2... well they looked, sounded and felt simply awful. from lotr side... i guess i liked them more when i only knew about them from the books lol. wh40k orc design was awful (liked pretty much every other race in that universe). hmmm... i like beast races in most games (khajiits ftw), but orcs are simply boring to me.

  • TerminatusTerminatus SetubalPosts: 104Member

    :)

     

    ...in space no one can hear an Elf fart...

     

    :)

  • willvaswillvas Joliet, ILPosts: 137Member

    Why does everybody think that fantasy = Elves, dwarves, gnomes, humans,etc. ?

     

    ASHERONS CALL series....

    This FANTASY didnt have any of those races but human.  They had their own fantasy made up and based around  a Powerful Mage named Asheron. 

     

    this was a GREAT fantasy that broke the mold from Tolkenish styled fantasy.

    Pray they come out with an AC3.. because AC2 was an ubelievable game but Microsoft and Turbine shot themself in the foot releasing it when it wasnt ready.

     

     

  • Lester_CreechLester_Creech nelson, BCPosts: 515Member Common

    shadowbane had pretty good elves. the typical elves were almost evil in nature, the former tyrants of the world, overthrown by their human slaves rebellion, and the "dark elves" were blood red skinned desert dwelling, dragon worshipping martial artists. 

     

    mainstream elves dont really seem to be anything, all implication, no backbone.  "We are the elves! long lived and magical! wowie"

  • BlasphimBlasphim San Diego, CAPosts: 349Member Common



    Originally posted by Loke666




    Originally posted by Blasphim

    Your forgetting Greyhawk my friend, the first "setting" for DnD.

    Edit:  I will agree however, that many seem to take from what FR has built, but one could even make the connection that FR took from Tolkien in many of it's storylines and world events and stereotypes.

    Yeah, never liked that setting much, but the reason I didn't mention it is because at least some people here know of DL and FR, and maybe even Ravenloft. Greyhawk, Spelljammers and Fallen sun are setting that you me, and maybe someone else have heard about.

    And of course did FR took a lot from Tolkien and made it cheesier. But Greenwood and Grubb do know how to make good stories and possibilities. Few other worlds and no MMO world have really been close to that.






     

    Damn I haven't thought about dark sun (was it called fallen in the eu?), ravenloft, or spelljammer in a long damn while.  I agree that FR is one of if not the best setting for D&D, Greenwood fell into the stereotypes early on as well, but admitidly, it's difficult not to.  Elminster is the big glaring one that pops fresh into my head.  But again, it's difficult not to when you have to design something that will have a sense of familiarity to attract the masses. 

     

    Like Cass said earlier, it's the cliches that are starting to bother the hell outta me when it comes to the fantasy setting.  We (or at least I) have seen them redone so many times it's starting to bug.  How many young blacksmiths can grow to be billy bad ass, how many orphaned children can grow into gods of the arcane, how many elves can look down their noses at the rest of the world, how many dwarves can slam a tankard of ale and skull split the dragon at the same time?

     

    Maybe I haven't read enough of the Sci-fi genre to become so jaded, maybe it's because the stereotypes are not as overused as often, in either case, it just doesn't seem to be as stale as the fantasy setting.  There is one fantasy series that I keep re-reading, mainly for the laughs, and that's the Myth series by Robert Asprin.  As old as they are ( I dunno if he's even still writing them, or hell even still alive...I should check that out), they are not your typical fantasy tales.

     

    Anyhow, again Cass I agree, lets do away with the cliches (wish I knew how to do the lil accent thing aboves the "e").



    Edit: fixed a couple fat finger errors

  • newbihacknewbihack Olympia, WAPosts: 36Member

    lol at the posts here, the whole idea is old school. WHY? Guild Wars doesn't have Elves in there, beside the mmorpg style is getting way outdated with our modern world, I mean WTH, swords and bow and magic? we need something that looks far away from fantasy, something original with Epic new pvp system and pve system.

    I am sayin this cuz iam tired of playing MMO games that has the same storyplot which are:

    ( lvl up, quests, lvl up, quests, grind, grind,grind...OH MY EYES )

    if these companies kept creating garbage like these MMORPG games we sure we will end up with dead minds who got no imagination and not fantasy imagination.

    and one more thing for a new idea for a new brand MMO:

    create a game where you can use only skills to create armor, weapons and other skills to do your job, and delete the gear system and grind system by replacing scrolls skills to create a new skils, plus make full of gore becuase it gets boring after killing mobs without seeing guts flying in the air.

    that just my idea about a fun MMO, peace to all or not?

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