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General: The No Elves Manifesto

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  • KrytycalKrytycal Miami, FLPosts: 520Member

    Legolas does not approve of this column.

  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member

    Sorry I just dont support this movement.  I started playing table top RPG's in the 80's and have progressed from them, to Card based games, to Video games and over the years I still would rather play a good High Fantasy based game over any other genre.  The only other genre that comes even close for me is Post-Apocalyptic but it isnt even close.  As much as I like Sci0fi in movies and books I still do not like it in my games because for what ever reason it just isnt as immersive for me.

    Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

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  • RobbgobbRobbgobb Dallas, TXPosts: 453Member Uncommon

    I agree with most except wizards and dragons. Wizards would make great enemies and dragons would be great at ruling giant cities and working for I think. I really enjoyed the article.

  • SkillCosbySkillCosby Trenton, MIPosts: 684Member

    Originally posted by Zylaxx

    Sorry I just dont support this movement.  I started playing table top RPG's in the 80's and have progressed from them, to Card based games, to Video games and over the years I still would rather play a good High Fantasy based game over any other genre.  The only other genre that comes even close for me is Post-Apocalyptic but it isnt even close.  As much as I like Sci0fi in movies and books I still do not like it in my games because for what ever reason it just isnt as immersive for me.




     

    I agree. I find anything other than High Fantasy hard to get into as far as immersion is concerned.

  • TerranahTerranah Stockton, CAPosts: 3,605Member

    I like elves.  I vote no.

  • StormwindXStormwindX LondonPosts: 168Member

    Originally posted by casskhaw



    Originally posted by vesavius



    I bet his first proper piece is about SWTOR, and that it is gushing and coincides with that launch.










     

     




    .. actually, it's a toss-up between Fallen Earth and Shin Megami Tenshei Online





     

    Shin Megami Tensei *_*

     

    You, ma'am, have my respect. /respect

     

    ...even though I actually like Elves. Sometimes, at least.

  • ConsumerConsumer Toronto, ONPosts: 9Member

    You can't hate on Tolkien...like Marx, or Jesus, he can hardly be blamed for all the things wrought in his name long after he was gone. But yeah, I can agree that tradiitonal pure fantasy is pretty oversaturated in the gaming market. It's a low-risk move for developers to make another one because the audience knows the premise already and can jump right in without much work. To sell an alternative world type is a risk that most developers don't want to take. The success of Fallout, etc, should indicate that you can step outside that fantasy box and still succeed. A sci fi MMO, steampunk-theme, postapocalyptic, historical, alternate history...there are so many other genres that could be explored. Bounty Hounds Online looks promising in this regard. You need a change of scenery every once in a while to stay healthy.

    Ever onward,

    J

  • OgreRaperOgreRaper Detroit, MIPosts: 376Member

    I like elves. I like the dungeons and dragons style of fantasy. I prefer it over sci-fi.

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member

    No Dwarves as well?

  • MaquiameMaquiame Posts: 800Member Uncommon

    No more elves unless its a RIFTS, Shadowrun or TES mmorpg oh and War40k but that is being made already

    where are the western mmorpgs, the Giant Robot mmos like Gundam (and not that f2p rubbish) I mean real political stories and such like Gundam or Macross. Where is the Firefly mmorpg, a Naruto mmorpg, or  if you are going to have elves, make it goddamned Record of Lodoss War the mmo.

    No Masters of the Universe mmo? Based off the Cartoon Network series from a few years back?

    No Thundercats mmorpg?

    No Astro City mmo- the one that can finally put City of Heroes/Villians to rest?

    If you are going to have elves why not at least one elf society that is a bunch of total eco terrorist enslaving bastards, or ones that hold up the kingdom at knifepoint like the Thalmors of TES? Stop with the pretty tree hugging good superhumans. I want the elves that make little girls cry and make grown men like me say "Those F*in elvse ain't playing no games!"

    And I want an mmo that the elves are like this and are not the asians of the game, and don't replace the african human race.

    I want more diversity amongst my humans

    So many fantasy mmos claim to be a world, and they are, they are the World of England

    I am so tired of the World of England its not even funny, Euro fantasy needs to die, and TRUE WORLD fantasy games need to come along, more along the lines of Vanguard or Everquest 1 please!

    I want the multi human race fantasy with lores equal to their areas, insane chinese coiling dragons in the asian areas (and not japanese goddamnit!!!-there is a difference, not to mention chinese demons are awesome!!!!!)

    I want the african starting area to be African!!!! with African monsters!!! and things like the African Rainbow serpent

    And I want the typical euro area to not be based on ENGLAND, why can't it be based on Russian myth, Russian mythology is some scary scary shit!!!!  My god why is not someone making a RIFTS mmorpg????? Please mmorpg staff ask around about this!!

    If I am going to play another fantasy mmorpg I want it to be for ADULTS!! I want it where the npc kingdoms are fighting!!! I want treacherous elves that are not blue or brown!!!  I do not want this game to be for little Timmy too, he has more than enough to play already! Where is the niche mmorpg that is high fantasy good quality for Adults?

     

     

    image

    Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!

  • KuinnKuinn MestaPosts: 2,093Member

    Originally posted by precious328

    I don't mind elves. What I do mind, however, are the constant WoW-clones and their linear/simplistic mindset.

    Seriously. Battlegrounds? Redundant Raids? Linear Progression?

    Mankind has landed on the moon. Do you mean to tell me that this is all we are capable of within the MMO realm?




     

     

    Just make games that are not technical nightmares or games that does not run out of content before you're half way to max level (if your game has levels), that's enough for me, seeing that 90% of mmorpgs are either technical nightmares or out of content after two days of play.

     

    I also welcome completely original games with original gameplay, as long as it's not "original for the sake of being original" and as long as those two critical points I mentioned are not present, number one focus should be on making complete/full/ready games, which is rare on mmorpg front.

  • Lighten_UpLighten_Up RotterdamPosts: 108Member

    Originally posted by Consumer

    You can't hate on Tolkien...like Marx, or Jesus, he can hardly be blamed for all the things wrought in his name long after he was gone. But yeah, I can agree that tradiitonal pure fantasy is pretty oversaturated in the gaming market. It's a low-risk move for developers to make another one because the audience knows the premise already and can jump right in without much work. To sell an alternative world type is a risk that most developers don't want to take. The success of Fallout, etc, should indicate that you can step outside that fantasy box and still succeed. A sci fi MMO, steampunk-theme, postapocalyptic, historical, alternate history...there are so many other genres that could be explored. Bounty Hounds Online looks promising in this regard. You need a change of scenery every once in a while to stay healthy.

    Ever onward,

    J

    I hope I will get the opportunity to play an MMO where I can optomize my avatar in such a way that I can make him look more-or-less like the handsome gentleman in your display picture, J. Matching moustache and all. Ever onward!

  • KuinnKuinn MestaPosts: 2,093Member

    Originally posted by Zylaxx

    Sorry I just dont support this movement.  I started playing table top RPG's in the 80's and have progressed from them, to Card based games, to Video games and over the years I still would rather play a good High Fantasy based game over any other genre.  The only other genre that comes even close for me is Post-Apocalyptic but it isnt even close.  As much as I like Sci0fi in movies and books I still do not like it in my games because for what ever reason it just isnt as immersive for me.

     

    Why? I just cant understand that since games are pretty much evenly immersive for me, they are all made up, and pretty much anything is possible. Sci-fi games by logic should be more immersive since they rarely have magic or monsters of the myths that are being pulled out of arse while scifi more often has more "scientific" aproach to the fantasy withing the title.

     

    But like I said, since they are games I dont see much difference between any of them when it comes to immersion, since everything within the game is supported by the game it self, it's lore and so forth, no matter how silly or serious it is, if you know what I mean. Take any fantasy game for example and try to imagine its "mechanics" into real world and it's stupid beyond belief, but it works perfectly well in a game environment.

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko RotterdamPosts: 3,845Member Uncommon

    I thoroughly enjoyed Lord of the Rings when I read it 35 years ago. Since that time, I've read a handfull of fantasy novels, and a great towering heap of scifi.

    Unfortunately, most high fantasy is severely limited by it's "lore", which means that the content remains much the same, only the plots differ. SciFi, on the other hand, has a palette that is only limited by the imagination of the author, which leads to wildly varying contents and story plots.

    Oddly, the vast majority of MMO's prefer to recycle the contents of other, similar, high-fantasy MMO's. It's safe and fairly predictable.

    What irks me most about the MMO's of the last 10 years (other than the dominance of high fantasy settings) is the fact that melee combat is almost ALWAYS included as a viable and "balanced" combat class, which is totally unrealistic in a non-medieval setting.

    So I'll support "No Elves !" and add to that "No Melee Fighters !" :D

     

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,779Member Uncommon

    In the past couple of years i haven been following game lores more than going right to endgame.

    I dont mind having elves in any game. What i do mind is that more and more games include races with "less-than-good" lore behind them..... Most of the mmos i have played have elves and i havent seen an elven lore more interesting or inspiring than the one behind blood elves and night elves which i really love.... (my personal opinion lorewise, no flame please and thank you)

    If elves are to keep coming to new games, they need a background check lol

    image
  • chbautistchbautist Montreal, QCPosts: 50Member

    Originally posted by Maquiame

    No more elves unless its a RIFTS, Shadowrun or TES mmorpg oh and War40k but that is being made already

    where are the western mmorpgs, the Giant Robot mmos like Gundam (and not that f2p rubbish) I mean real political stories and such like Gundam or Macross. Where is the Firefly mmorpg, a Naruto mmorpg, or  if you are going to have elves, make it goddamned Record of Lodoss War the mmo.

    No Masters of the Universe mmo? Based off the Cartoon Network series from a few years back?

    No Thundercats mmorpg?

    No Astro City mmo- the one that can finally put City of Heroes/Villians to rest?

    If you are going to have elves why not at least one elf society that is a bunch of total eco terrorist enslaving bastards, or ones that hold up the kingdom at knifepoint like the Thalmors of TES? Stop with the pretty tree hugging good superhumans. I want the elves that make little girls cry and make grown men like me say "Those F*in elvse ain't playing no games!"

    And I want an mmo that the elves are like this and are not the asians of the game, and don't replace the african human race.

    I want more diversity amongst my humans

    So many fantasy mmos claim to be a world, and they are, they are the World of England

    I am so tired of the World of England its not even funny, Euro fantasy needs to die, and TRUE WORLD fantasy games need to come along, more along the lines of Vanguard or Everquest 1 please!

    I want the multi human race fantasy with lores equal to their areas, insane chinese coiling dragons in the asian areas (and not japanese goddamnit!!!-there is a difference, not to mention chinese demons are awesome!!!!!)

    I want the african starting area to be African!!!! with African monsters!!! and things like the African Rainbow serpent

    And I want the typical euro area to not be based on ENGLAND, why can't it be based on Russian myth, Russian mythology is some scary scary shit!!!!  My god why is not someone making a RIFTS mmorpg????? Please mmorpg staff ask around about this!!

    If I am going to play another fantasy mmorpg I want it to be for ADULTS!! I want it where the npc kingdoms are fighting!!! I want treacherous elves that are not blue or brown!!!  I do not want this game to be for little Timmy too, he has more than enough to play already! Where is the niche mmorpg that is high fantasy good quality for Adults?

     

     

    Yes, and it should cost a lot to play (50$ per month), be only available for a limited number of players (one server for the whole world 100k players subscribing at most) and not have Artificial intellingece but Actual intelligence. Let the GMs be the leaders of the NPC factions... let a human decide when its time to strike against Fort X, not just because "the quest lauches the attack" but because the GM wants to get back at another GM who burned his crops last night and he has a good number of players in the area for a punitive strike.

    Let not the monsters "respawn" at regular interval at the same spot. Let a GM faction leader decide where to send his spawn so that player don't always expect the same thing at the same place. animals like wolves may respawn at random but Zombies... that should be for the undead lord to call the shots and he should be a GM, not AI.

    Bring in guest stars doing live shows with their specially crafted avatars. If you can get Chuck Norris to make a tv ad then maybe you can get Weird al Yankovick to throw a few jokes on stage and sing "Yoda" on Coruscant, next friday night... one night only so log on and don't miss it. (and then you get a damn battle royale and riot after the show because so many ennemies are close to one another in the stadium.)

     

    Also yeah... Elderscrolls Elves are ugly (in a well crafted uglyness) and it feels right, I would just like not everyone ion the game to look like they haven't taken a shower in months.

  • Flex1Flex1 Cabo RojoPosts: 407Member

    The problem is that Elfs are ALWAYS portraid the same way. This lame### hippies that are horney for plants and they always have a racial hate for orcs and dont get along with dwarves.

     

    That is the problem.


    image

  • DubhlaithDubhlaith EnnisPosts: 1,012Member

    Elves are not the problem.

    The constant cloning of Tolkien's elves is the problem. Elves represent something deep and beautiful and mysterious. They add a lot to any fantasy world. They need not be elves, even. Sylvari are a good example of a race that has that feeling.

    The hyper religious reincarnation monks in EVE feel this way to me a bit as well. That sort of thing is good to have in a game because there are people who would love to play it. It's why you have basic humans, the bestial race, the small race, etc. These aren't new ideas, and they exist for a reason.

    You might not like fantasy, but don't pick on elves.

    That said, we obviously need fantasy games, and scifi games, and alternate reality games (ala TSW, WOD). We shouldn't pick on people who like different genres, but rather be glad they all exist. For me, I prefer fantasy or FPS, because when I am killing something, I want to see it. It just doesn't feel real, visceral in a spaceship.

    "Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true — you know it, and they know it." —Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007

    WTF? No subscription fee?

  • MikeBMikeB MMORPG.com Community Manager Queens, NYPosts: 5,724Administrator Uncommon

    Originally posted by casskhaw



    Originally posted by Lobotomist



    Not bad article.





    And while I agree with most. I also think that elves are not to bad. But oversaturation and copy cat buisness practices are what we are all tired off.





    Look at elves in Witcher : Agressive militant terrorists, bent on suicide killing of any human they find.





    Thats quite original. Why not...





     





     





     










     

     

    Don't get me wrong. I could still stomach elves if they're presented properly. The elves I'm ranting about are the pretty ones you always see in MMOs. I can not name the last MMO that did not feature elves that were NOT willowly, inhumanly good-looking and ... yeah, you know what I'm talking about. 




     

    Skyrim! Wait...err..;)

    Michael "MikeB" Bitton
    Community Manager
    Twitter: @eMikeB

  • Ambros123Ambros123 Neverneverland, TNPosts: 877Member

    I don't mind Elves, used to be an Elf player but now can't stand em.  What the problem is how a lot of MMO don't go after more unique races and stay in the human, elf, dwarf mold which have been done over n over n over. Rift was pathetic at races so was the new MMO that shall not be uttered (hellllo human reskins) and not enough of trying to break the mold.  ANet I think is doing a pretty damn good job, especially with how they did the Sylvari.  4e D&D is pretty heavy in dragonkin I hear which is nice.  I like to play a variety of non-human like Argonians, Charr, or Tauren.  Would love to see some demonic kind of races though like a Thiefling in the D&D world or the whatyacallits in Hellgate.

  • centkincentkin Asbury, NJPosts: 944Member Uncommon

    You see -- that is the problem actually...

    Using something like "elf" or "dwarf" can be a crutch to a developer not to have any backstory.  I mean generic elf is generic elf and people can relate and know what to expect from a generic elf and they can put less into the backstory.

    Now if you do something like the virindi -- now nobody knows what is going on and they have to create a complete backstory etc.

    Yes you CAN put the time into one of the generic fantasy races and flesh it out and maybe take it in a different direction (I mean instead of just elves you can have the fae in general and have boggarts or brownies or pixies or sprites.  Nothing says you cant still have fae in a world and not have elves or have elves be a MINOR part of the fae enclave.

  • redcloud16redcloud16 Seattle, WAPosts: 222Member

    Leave the elves alone. 

     

    To be fair, I think the typical elves are a bit over used. But my favorite were the Night Elves and Blood Elves from Warcraft 3 (not World of Warcraft.)

     

    Grom Hellscream, when first encountering the Night Elves, is taken aback and comments "They look like Elves, but they're far too tall and far too savage!"

     

    I remember when the first Night Elves broke through the tree line and we're screaming to slaughter the orcs for their transgressions against nature. Like, literally forthing for bloodshed. Then WoW happened, and their jsut . . . there. Existing. : /

    image

  • Lighten_UpLighten_Up RotterdamPosts: 108Member

    I haven't been able to come across any Elf lore that I found remotely interesting, even Markus Heitz couldn't keep me interested when I read his 'The Dwarves' which included a colourful Elf girl who I forgot the name of... and I believe she was half-Elvish, half-Human. It has been a while. I always thought of Elves being 'that advanced alien race in a Fantasy setting' and not much else. So little is revealed about Elves when you read about them in novels... It's hard to grasp hold of a race that is always portrayed with such intolerable characters.

     

    [mod edit][user edit: this post failed to be humerous because it was not allowed a satirical punch-line. No Elves!]





     



  • MaquiameMaquiame Posts: 800Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by chbautist

    Originally posted by Maquiame

    No more elves unless its a RIFTS, Shadowrun or TES mmorpg oh and War40k but that is being made already

    where are the western mmorpgs, the Giant Robot mmos like Gundam (and not that f2p rubbish) I mean real political stories and such like Gundam or Macross. Where is the Firefly mmorpg, a Naruto mmorpg, or  if you are going to have elves, make it goddamned Record of Lodoss War the mmo.

    No Masters of the Universe mmo? Based off the Cartoon Network series from a few years back?

    No Thundercats mmorpg?

    No Astro City mmo- the one that can finally put City of Heroes/Villians to rest?

    If you are going to have elves why not at least one elf society that is a bunch of total eco terrorist enslaving bastards, or ones that hold up the kingdom at knifepoint like the Thalmors of TES? Stop with the pretty tree hugging good superhumans. I want the elves that make little girls cry and make grown men like me say "Those F*in elvse ain't playing no games!"

    And I want an mmo that the elves are like this and are not the asians of the game, and don't replace the african human race.

    I want more diversity amongst my humans

    So many fantasy mmos claim to be a world, and they are, they are the World of England

    I am so tired of the World of England its not even funny, Euro fantasy needs to die, and TRUE WORLD fantasy games need to come along, more along the lines of Vanguard or Everquest 1 please!

    I want the multi human race fantasy with lores equal to their areas, insane chinese coiling dragons in the asian areas (and not japanese goddamnit!!!-there is a difference, not to mention chinese demons are awesome!!!!!)

    I want the african starting area to be African!!!! with African monsters!!! and things like the African Rainbow serpent

    And I want the typical euro area to not be based on ENGLAND, why can't it be based on Russian myth, Russian mythology is some scary scary shit!!!!  My god why is not someone making a RIFTS mmorpg????? Please mmorpg staff ask around about this!!

    If I am going to play another fantasy mmorpg I want it to be for ADULTS!! I want it where the npc kingdoms are fighting!!! I want treacherous elves that are not blue or brown!!!  I do not want this game to be for little Timmy too, he has more than enough to play already! Where is the niche mmorpg that is high fantasy good quality for Adults?

     

     

    Yes, and it should cost a lot to play (50$ per month), be only available for a limited number of players (one server for the whole world 100k players subscribing at most) and not have Artificial intellingece but Actual intelligence. Let the GMs be the leaders of the NPC factions... let a human decide when its time to strike against Fort X, not just because "the quest lauches the attack" but because the GM wants to get back at another GM who burned his crops last night and he has a good number of players in the area for a punitive strike.

    Let not the monsters "respawn" at regular interval at the same spot. Let a GM faction leader decide where to send his spawn so that player don't always expect the same thing at the same place. animals like wolves may respawn at random but Zombies... that should be for the undead lord to call the shots and he should be a GM, not AI.

    Bring in guest stars doing live shows with their specially crafted avatars. If you can get Chuck Norris to make a tv ad then maybe you can get Weird al Yankovick to throw a few jokes on stage and sing "Yoda" on Coruscant, next friday night... one night only so log on and don't miss it. (and then you get a damn battle royale and riot after the show because so many ennemies are close to one another in the stadium.)

     

    Also yeah... Elderscrolls Elves are ugly (in a well crafted uglyness) and it feels right, I would just like not everyone ion the game to look like they haven't taken a shower in months.

     YES!!! I have been saying for a long time that the high quality niche mmorpg that runs on a boutique hotel model is the future!! I would pay fifty dollars a month for this!!!

    image

    Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,065Member Uncommon

    I want to see Fearun online... Or better, the forgotten realms online, with all the famous places from the dale lands to waterdeep and from tentowns to Amn and from the sea of the fallen stars to the trackless sea.  And beleive me, that world has everything from spider queens and drizzt to Elminster with his pointy head, from dwarves to Elves and many many more thigns to discover..

     

    Its the epidrome of high fantasy, and i don't get why they never made an AAA MMO based on this world.



     

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

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