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Are Innovative Mo's a dying breed?

darker70darker70 stokePosts: 813Member

 

Thought i'd throw this one out the masses  as an example SWTOR the sign of the times basically WoW mk2,forget innovation let's just milk those out there until they get bored, or with Biowares money will add expacs or features to keep there fans happy which no doubt will be nicked from other Mo's as any innovation seems sound an alarm in the suits heads that the game will not make money and therefore they stick with the same old model.

It is apparant that there is a trend by Devs even as innovative as Bioware to take the easy option, the old addage if it ain't broke don't fix it is very noticable in the SWTOR beta,which enjoyable will still not satisfy my craveing for that something a little bit different that spark that would re-ignite my gameplay and immerse me into that world as i got the feeling of maybe it will get better but mainly it's kinda meh.

With SWTOR they took the option of useing Hero engine which in turn gave them a solid backbone but i have seen the engine in use as an early proto type and it has so much more to give and could have been used with prob not to much effort,to create vast worlds but instead we get limited areas with linear paths and no scope to go oooh and Ahh as we take a screen shot of our user definable toon surveying a vast world.

Then there is the trick of so called  conversation quest immersion very nicely done as this is Biowares forte no complaints there but after a few run throughs this will gets very old, now i could waffle on about SWTOR''s lack of this and that but i think i'm deemed to be stuck with this kind of linear gameplay or if u like the WoW aka copy everything mish mash approach to Mo's.

With economic market at melting point F2P and quick internal development are shapeing the industry there are a few striveing to break the mold Archeage,GW2 with it's dynamic questing,Copernicus might offer somethng and SOE might get there arses in gear and finally see they have a tarnished gem such as Vanguard which is prob the only long standing sandbox game left to offer something for the niche market and old school players alike,so dunno if u guys especially old schooler's feel the same and are resigned to that feeling of magic like the good old days is well and truely gone.


 


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Comments

  • gambe1gambe1 KrmeljPosts: 123Member

    No, they are not a dying breed, you just have to turn away from AAA mmo's. It's quite simple really. Developing AAA MMO costs a lot of money. Few times more than a singleplayer game.  Bioware just can't afford including to much innovation as they know it can backfire badly, and people will not want to play the game if they don't feel comfortable using those innovations.  

    There is a lot of innovative mmo's out there, just not developed by big corporations.  MMO's that are not mainstream, developed by small companies, that need to listen to their subscribers if they want to keep them. Yes they are usually buggy, don't have fancy graphics or animations, but they are unique, and they have that old school magic you are craving for.

  • ZalmonZalmon Bloomington, INPosts: 319Member

    There we go again. that word..'innovation'. First,  innovation does not guarantee succes nor fun. And also there is no such things as completely innovative MMO because all the new MMOS are improving on existing features. I call it improvement than innovation. And yes even SWTOR has brought lots of improvements for example full V.O, robust companion system, crew skills for instance.  Just like TSW and GW2 which although themepark at heart and using many of themepark features are also bringing their own twists to genre. But innovative? don't think so.

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,795Member Uncommon

    Well that's it, really. I don't want an innovative, but buggy, ugly and clunky game. I want an innovative, polished and pretty game.

    Personally I feel game developers are just gutless cowards, brown nosing to the publishers.

    Here's hoping someone somewhere there has the balls to pursue (and/or fund) an innovative MMO.

    Until then I'll wait for the next best things - GW2 and PS2.

  • Xstatic912Xstatic912 New York, NYPosts: 365Member

    Thing is what is innovate to one person, can be a drag to another.. Challenge is it find that perfect line of being innovate and not be a drag to the masses. All truth be told MMO players of today, aren't as forgiving or has the tolerance towards when a game is trying to be innovative (they might claim its too weird), we see it on console too. You can be innovate and cater to a Niche market, hoping to turn a small profit and stay afloat.

    It would be cool if all mmo's in developement, aim to be aleast 25% innovative. But wishful thinking i guess

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gambe1

    No, they are not a dying breed, you just have to turn away from AAA mmo's. It's quite simple really. Developing AAA MMO costs a lot of money. Few times more than a singleplayer game.  Bioware just can't afford including to much innovation as they know it can backfire badly, and people will not want to play the game if they don't feel comfortable using those innovations.  
    There is a lot of innovative mmo's out there, just not developed by big corporations.  MMO's that are not mainstream, developed by small companies, that need to listen to their subscribers if they want to keep them. Yes they are usually buggy, don't have fancy graphics or animations, but they are unique, and they have that old school magic you are craving for.

     

    Doesn't all they need to do is make that money back off of box sells? That's where hype come in. Hey look at Warhammer and Vanguard. Both are still alive, yet had Huge da-Jude flops in numbers. The box sells likely kept it alive.

    image

  • ClassicstarClassicstar rotjeknorPosts: 2,690Member

    Originally posted by darker70

     

    Thought i'd throw this one out the masses  as an example SWTOR the sign of the times basically WoW mk2,forget innovation let's just milk those out there until they get bored, or with Biowares money will add expacs or features to keep there fans happy which no doubt will be nicked from other Mo's as any innovation seems sound an alarm in the suits heads that the game will not make money and therefore they stick with the same old model.

    It is apparant that there is a trend by Devs even as innovative as Bioware to take the easy option, the old addage if it ain't broke don't fix it is very noticable in the SWTOR beta,which enjoyable will still not satisfy my craveing for that something a little bit different that spark that would re-ignite my gameplay and immerse me into that world as i got the feeling of maybe it will get better but mainly it's kinda meh.

    With SWTOR they took the option of useing Hero engine which in turn gave them a solid backbone but i have seen the engine in use as an early proto type and it has so much more to give and could have been used with prob not to much effort,to create vast worlds but instead we get limited areas with linear paths and no scope to go oooh and Ahh as we take a screen shot of our user definable toon surveying a vast world.

    Then there is the trick of so called  conversation quest immersion very nicely done as this is Biowares forte no complaints there but after a few run throughs this will gets very old, now i could waffle on about SWTOR''s lack of this and that but i think i'm deemed to be stuck with this kind of linear gameplay or if u like the WoW aka copy everything mish mash approach to Mo's.

    With economic market at melting point F2P and quick internal development are shapeing the industry there are a few striveing to break the mold Archeage,GW2 with it's dynamic questing,Copernicus might offer somethng and SOE might get there arses in gear and finally see they have a tarnished gem such as Vanguard which is prob the only long standing sandbox game left to offer something for the niche market and old school players alike,so dunno if u guys especially old schooler's feel the same and are resigned to that feeling of magic like the good old days is well and truely gone.


     


    Bioware already lost longtime ago after baldurs gate 2.

    With latests crap game DA2 and soon SWTOR. With EA behind them only think that counts is $$$ nothing else matters.

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  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member

    I am pretty surprised how run of the mill SWTOR turned out to be. It's not like they didn't have the budget to try something different, they had a humongous budget, they c ould have made anything they  could think of, and they made...this. While it's not a bad game, it won't be remembered as anything that changed the genre.

  • MetentsoMetentso BarcelonaPosts: 1,436Member Common

    That which doesn't exist cannot die.

  • ZalmonZalmon Bloomington, INPosts: 319Member

    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    I am pretty surprised how run of the mill SWTOR turned out to be. It's not like they didn't have the budget to try something different, they had a humongous budget, they c ould have made anything they  could think of, and they made...this. While it's not a bad game, it won't be remembered as anything that changed the genre.

    Since when budget has anything to do with doing something different? it is about taking risks and with huge investment like this they would be fool to fix things which are not broken. As far as bringing new things to genre Bioware is improving on some features which could become a norm in future MMOS. V.O, robust companion system and crew skills for MMOS are pretty non standard and new features. I would even consider the amount of modding that SWTOR allows with gear to be quite an improvement.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member

    Originally posted by Zalmon

    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    I am pretty surprised how run of the mill SWTOR turned out to be. It's not like they didn't have the budget to try something different, they had a humongous budget, they c ould have made anything they  could think of, and they made...this. While it's not a bad game, it won't be remembered as anything that changed the genre.

    Since when budget has anything to do with doing something different?

    It would be much easier to try something new. They could have gotten any developer or person they wanted with a budget like that. They also had plenty of time to do so, this game was in development for quite a while.

    Where did all this money go to, it sure didn't went into innovative design.

  • ZalmonZalmon Bloomington, INPosts: 319Member

    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    Originally posted by Zalmon


    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    I am pretty surprised how run of the mill SWTOR turned out to be. It's not like they didn't have the budget to try something different, they had a humongous budget, they c ould have made anything they  could think of, and they made...this. While it's not a bad game, it won't be remembered as anything that changed the genre.

    Since when budget has anything to do with doing something different?

    It would be much easier to try something new. They could have gotten any developer or person they wanted with a budget like that. They also had plenty of time to do so, this game was in development for quite a while.

    And they did add somethings new as i mentioned in my last reply. To be fair none of the upcoming MMOS is re inventing the wheel. They are staying true to themepark formula and adding their own improvements. It is a very calculated risk and not a blind one. iI is easier to gamble on other people money, the day you make a huge investment let me know how much you are willing to take risks.

  • DigitallyEndowedDigitallyEndowed PortsmouthPosts: 125Member

     


    I have noticed quite a lot of ignorance and lack of comprehension going around the net lately, especially in regards to innovation, and even more so SWTOR.


     


    No matter what your personal opinion of the game is, SWTOR is innovative, by the very definition of the word. There is simply no debating it. You could of course try to argue against this, but you would still be wrong nonetheless.


     


    in·no·va·tive/?in??v?tiv/









    Adjective:









    1.      (of a product, idea, etc.) Featuring new methods; advanced and original.


    2.      (of a person) Introducing new ideas; original and creative in thinking: "an innovative thinker".


     


    If you can’t see the innovation in SWTOR then you simply don’t know enough about the game, or are opting to disregard certain aspects of it, and it may do you well to do some more research.


     


    Don’t get me wrong, not everything about the game is new and “special.” For the most part it revolves around the standard MMORPG formula, but with some nice little tweaks. But is there innovation? Absolutely.


     


    GW2 is on the horizon as well, which will be bringing quite a bit of innovation to the table, so no, innovative MMOs are not a dying breed.

  • Z3R01Z3R01 NYC, NYPosts: 2,426Member

    Originally posted by tom_gore

    Well that's it, really. I don't want an innovative, but buggy, ugly and clunky game. I want an innovative, polished and pretty game.

    What was that saying?

    "People in hell want water"

    My suggestion is to give up on the mmorpg sub-genre now because what you are asking for takes more money than the innovative type dev teams could get.

    Playing:

    Waiting on:

  • dreamsofwardreamsofwar bangorPosts: 468Member

    Many large companies do not wish to gamble with their investors money on a game with features they are not sure will appeal to the masses. Thats why all extreme innovation is going to come from small time, low budget developers.

    Star Wars does have some innovation though. The voice acting and focus on story is a feature thats not been in an MMO before, also the companions is a new and innovative feature.

    Companies aren't going to want to risk going into uncharted territory when they already know what works and what the masses will pay for.

    And though this isn't what people want to hear, you could say the F2P model with the cash shops is innovation, moving away from the standard monthly fee billing system.

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member

    Well they are innovation per se, but they not really change core of game.

    It is more like same old, but with lipstick put on.

     

    Not to mention that most of those things mentioned are bad innvoations.

     

     

    Well I really think only way for mmorpg's to start to be innovative again (bar really bad, unpolished, indie games) is if mmorpg as a genre (not confuse with MMO's!!!) will have to start to FAIL bad, like really bad financially.

     

    Only thing that can put diffrent design is if old design of WoW, Rift, EQ2, Lotro, AoC, etc - start to fail miserably financially.

    Now ok some games failed (Warhammer Online, AoC) but overall themepark subgenre of mmorpg's still are very financially viable.

    Unless players start migrating to other type of games (mmo or not mmo) and stop buying games like Swtor / Rift / WoW situation will not change.

     

    Fiancial fail would of course mean LESS investments into mmorpg games by game companies and investors, but at same time those who would still invest would be more innovative.

     

    Nowadays there are 2 categories of games : AAA Themeparks which are cookie cutter and core of gameplay is same old all the time AND second category : small projects either made for themepark f2p market or small indie projects of sandboxes.

     

    There is almost nothing in between. Only game in between, that get some more serious financing (not as biggest mmorpg's but much more than small projects) is EvE Online.

     

    So people whine and moan, but after they do they go buy Swtor / Rift or spend money in cash shop in Lotro / EQ2 / AoC and by doing that they just strenghten current direction genre is heading.

    Of course they say "well there is nothing else to play, and I want to play mmoprg bla bla".

    Well bottom point is you sustain and support current mmorpg design.

     

    One can spin and justify their actions, but as long as you support cokkie cutter games then you will get more cookie cutter games.  That's really just that simple.

     

    Game corporations don't care if you spend money and are "wow that good game!!!" or spend moeny and "ok not perfect but I will play it".    That does NOT mattter, as long as you spend money (does not matter if box, subscription or cash shop) or even just play and make population bigger while not spending a dime (F2P games) your satisfaction level is not important.

     

    Really get that simple truth already. It is not hard to understand.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Originally posted by Zalmon

    There we go again. that word..'innovation'.

    Seems to be the buzzphrase of the year, yas.

    How do you predict (or even encourage) the next sleeper hit?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,682Member Uncommon

    First two replies nailed it.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • PukeBucketPukeBucket Beaverton, ORPosts: 867Member

    Innovators are jumping ship. Gotta get an iPhone.

    But yeah, no MMO innovation. Even the indy devs are just trying to rehash ideas that have sorta been "moved passed".

    I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.

  • UOloverUOlover Mullica Hill, NJPosts: 327Member Common

    I don't see innovation anywhere, I see refinement. 15 year old UO still has more innovation.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Originally posted by UOlover

    I don't see innovation anywhere, I see refinement. 15 year old UO still has more innovation.

    Heh, it's not difficult to innovate when everything you do is new.

    15 years later, it's quite a bit harder to find ground that's not broken yet.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • UOloverUOlover Mullica Hill, NJPosts: 327Member Common

    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Originally posted by UOlover

    I don't see innovation anywhere, I see refinement. 15 year old UO still has more innovation.

    Heh, it's not difficult to innovate when everything you do is new.

    15 years later, it's quite a bit harder to find ground that's not broken yet.

    That would be fine if we at least still had that basic level of innovation to launch from. However games are doing even less than that.

  • PukeBucketPukeBucket Beaverton, ORPosts: 867Member

    Originally posted by UOlover

    Originally posted by Icewhite


    Originally posted by UOlover

    I don't see innovation anywhere, I see refinement. 15 year old UO still has more innovation.

    Heh, it's not difficult to innovate when everything you do is new.

    15 years later, it's quite a bit harder to find ground that's not broken yet.

    That would be fine if we at least still had that basic level of innovation to launch from. However games are doing even less than that.

    Well ease of use and quality of life refinement has a place as innovation.

    It just kind of took the guts out of the original product of a massive and multiplayer role-playing game that's online.

    I think the dreamers are out there, but the last 10 years hasn't really had a group of investors who are willing to invest in innovation on really any level.

    Look at dual core and quad core processing chips for computers. Innovative? Or, just more of the same tacked together?

    There was a 10 channel chip being produced around 2002. (normal chip has 2, doubled 4, so on and so forth) but no one waited to pay for the factory upgrades needed to produce them. So, that's what we get.

    In all matter of industry there's a lack of innovation as far as "crafting" an existing product goes. But I do think people are being quite creative with doing more (or changing it to less) with what they have.

    I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.

  • darker70darker70 stokePosts: 813Member

    Well thanks guys some great replys glad u guys didn't take this as a troll post i may hint at i hate a certain game or two but i would never waste your time with juvenile bashing of a game,just a quick response here in my own flippant nonseniscal ramblely style.

    What i really was trying to get across is that as an example SWTOR is technically great sound as a pound in fact,but  there does not seem to be any apparant effort to push the envelope it feels reallly safe,yeah we get companions great cinematics but i would rather have SWG preCU as that really did push the boundries and create that starwarsy feel,with SWTOR i got the feeling i was in clone wars at times,not done the space bit yet but sounds a bit  Black Prophecy Like and nothing like Jump to Lightspeed or the old classic Tie fighter and X-wing take on space combat.

    So just for fun what would have happened if the suits at SOE/Lucas Arts had let SWG be, let it run would we have then seen a new  genere born that every other MO would follow,would it have become for  the sake of arguement the trend setter that WoW has become also the benchmark would then have to be surpassed,and yeah i'll use that word at last real Innovative immersive worlds would have become the norm,maybe less MO's on the market than now but more quality in the long term so if we do invent the time machine a trip back to SOE offices and a quick Glimpse into the future might persuade Smed that NGE really was a bad idea. image

     

     

    image

  • WarmakerWarmaker San Diego, CAPosts: 2,231Member

    The only innovation of note in the MMORPG genre is F2P, and all it is, is another way of pulling money out of your pocket.  The biggest "innovation" in recent years is SWTOR's heavy use of voice acting.

    Cue sarcasting "OOOOOOOHHH."

    So yes, I'd say innovative MMORPGs are dead.  Just like the core of gameplay in this genre.

    "I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,896Member Uncommon

    People want a hardcore, group oriented, soloable game for casuals.

     

    That's a little hard to deliver.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
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