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Star Wars: The Old Republic: Mirrored Classes

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  • BanegrivmBanegrivm Camp Hill, PAPosts: 194Member Uncommon

    The reviewer must be playing a different game. I played both a trooper and a bounty hunter and they were definitely not the same. Similar in some respects, but not the same. Again, the same thing with the smuggler and the imperial agent. Not the same. I had the same experience with the consular and the inquisitor. Definitely NOT the same. 

    Banegrivm
    Leader of the 1st Fist of Light
    www.1stfistoflight.com

  • LeucentLeucent Penticton, BCPosts: 2,371Member

    Originally posted by Czanrei

    Originally posted by xKingdomx

    Thats Holy trinity game balance for you

     

    Make tank class compulsory? Well both side will need at least one of them

    Make healer class compulsory? Well both side is gonna have at least one

    DPS? who cares about them, theres 50 running on the street right now.

     

    A lot of problems will a lot of MMORPG comes down to the basic fundamentals of how current MMORPG are built upon.

    The holy trinity isn't critical in making an mmo. It is a weak mechanic devised to make players dependant on others. GW2 thankfully is getting rid of the trinity. I think it's time other devs though outside of the box as well.

    Yes god forbid in an MMO you need to depend on other players.

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel houston, TXPosts: 7,277Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by elocke

    So is the issue PVE or PVP balance?  If it is, why don't we have different skills for PVP for each class then?  Why nerf our choices to bring about "balance" when the balance issues can be tackled from a different angle that has nothing to do with nerfs or buffs or developing a game with little to no classes in order to save themselves from the headaches of the "current" mmorpg balance issues.

    Just curious, but isn't this why GW2's system of no trinity possibly a different take on the same "balance" issue?  Or is it something that class/level based games HAVE to be designed around?  Hmm, this might be where the lack of innovation issues that people have with SWTOR is coming from.  I know it bothers me that Bioware, this giant behemoth supposedly awesome company, isn't innovating in these areas.  Guess it's too much to ask.

     

    Balance in general can be satiated by mirrored classes.  Most apparent in PvP,  but PvE is also important, and if you have the same classes on each side, theres no talk about how one side finishes quests easier due to a particular classes ability set.

     

    Balanced classes help, simply due to the way issues were previously with FOTM builds.  Everyone flocks to whats powerful,  then it gets "balanced"  then they go somewhere else,  and the cycle continues.  If you look down the line,  or hell, if you play SWTOR,  what did you see?  Well, you didn't see a single class dominate PvP,  nor did you see a single class dominate the PvE areas.  (outside of starter planets of course).   You saw diversity.  In my time in Beta... those many months,  I saw every build under the sun for every class,  even builds you wouldn't expect,  and even though the diversity wasn't there in terms of my consular having a completely different spec as someone elses inquisitor,  the choices you make for your class and the way you play them is much more important.

    "Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


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  • KuinnKuinn MestaPosts: 2,093Member

    Seems to me it's just a simple way of balancing the game, the classes still feel enough different because of the effects and sounds and looks, and 8 classes is quite good number for a launch imo. Actually I can see Jedi Knight and Sith Warrior (both of the AC's) not feeling different at all, but rest of the classes more or less.

     

    Example: I'd pick IA over smuggler because they use rifles, but I dont really care if the smuggler counterpart has the same practical abilities as me. Also, I noticed on warzone that I didnt know what abilites the bounty hunters were actually using outside the most basic or obvious ones, even I played trooper my self. Also inquisitor stun is very visual and noisy, but the consular stun is very subtle.

     

    I'm not sure why perfect class balance between factions in a themepark would be a bad thing, it eliminates the endless whine how some mirror class is more powerful than the other faction counterpart, it would be never ending if they were not balanced. It's not like we have mage/druid/rogue etc on both sides that are not only mirrored but also looks, feels and sounds exactly the same, like in WoW, Rift, Aion, they are different but completely balanced.

     

    I do love unique classes my self, and dont care that much of balance, but the game should have been built a whole lot differently from the beginning, like give 3 factions and unique classes to each of them, then it's not so bad if they are OP or not. But it's useless discussion because TOR is not that game, it's a themepark where a lot of the content per faction will suffer the consequences of unique class design per side, and the forums are overflooding with "my counterpart is OP BUFF BUFF NERF NERF" please no.

  • AlalalaAlalala Gabrielston, SCPosts: 311Member
    A lazy but wholly effective approach to balanced PvP.
  • clankyaspclankyasp sydneyPosts: 213Member

    so WoW can claim they have 24 classes?

  • dirtysidedirtyside warren, MIPosts: 79Member Uncommon

    ummmm bio ware is generic as can be and if u say different than you havent played their pc games , so i dont know why people expected something different from them for swtor

  • DaShnipaDaShnipa Oshawa, ONPosts: 32Member

    I agree with the class mirroring being in every other MMO. 

    WoW - Not only mirrored but the EXACT SAME CLASSES FOR BOTH SIDES

    LOTRO - No opposing faction to balance against.

    Vanguard - See LOTRO

    CoH - Flavor of the month toons with some mirroring. 

    AoC - See LOTRO

    DAOC - 3 factions, classes weren't balanced and flavor of the week toon's were common. Granted the RvR was still an assload of fun.

    Shall I continue?

    Why is everyone up in arms about uniqueness. I'm willing to be the majority have played wow, digging and grinding for the same armor that everyone else has, using the same cookie cutter builds as the top PvP/PvE players, and never once bitched about it then. 

    The characters although mirrored play differently, look different, and have different story lines and quests. I'm all for balance, and if this is how they plan on achieving it (at least in the short run) Count me in. 

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  • elockeelocke Manassas, VAPosts: 4,205Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by musicmann

    Originally posted by elocke

    So is the issue PVE or PVP balance?  If it is, why don't we have different skills for PVP for each class then?  Why nerf our choices to bring about "balance" when the balance issues can be tackled from a different angle that has nothing to do with nerfs or buffs or developing a game with little to no classes in order to save themselves from the headaches of the "current" mmorpg balance issues.

    Just curious, but isn't this why GW2's system of no trinity possibly a different take on the same "balance" issue?  Or is it something that class/level based games HAVE to be designed around?  Hmm, this might be where the lack of innovation issues that people have with SWTOR is coming from.  I know it bothers me that Bioware, this giant behemoth supposedly awesome company, isn't innovating in these areas.  Guess it's too much to ask.

     

    I can almost promise you that when GW2 comes out you will have the same bitching and moaning from pve and pvper's and balance, nerf issue's. Keep putting your almighty GW2 that high on a pedistal and you are sure to be highly disappointed once you get to play the actual game.

    Every post that you write just keeps showing your disdain for TOR and your zealous fanboyism for GW2.

    I mentioned GW2 because it's the only upcoming game that I know of that is changing how things are done in this "balance" issue.  It has nothing to do with my excitement for GW2 or my dislike(not disdain, it's not THAT horrible) of SWTOR.  Stay on topic, please.

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  • RobsolfRobsolf Grand Rapids, MIPosts: 4,250Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Alalala

    A lazy but wholly effective approach to balanced PvP.

    No matter what, a coder has to earn their pay.

    If they earn it by putting out new content, it's a win-win.  If they earn it by spending 80% of their time rebalancing (nerfing) classes, it's time wasted.

  • elockeelocke Manassas, VAPosts: 4,205Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    Originally posted by elocke

    So is the issue PVE or PVP balance?  If it is, why don't we have different skills for PVP for each class then?  Why nerf our choices to bring about "balance" when the balance issues can be tackled from a different angle that has nothing to do with nerfs or buffs or developing a game with little to no classes in order to save themselves from the headaches of the "current" mmorpg balance issues.

    Just curious, but isn't this why GW2's system of no trinity possibly a different take on the same "balance" issue?  Or is it something that class/level based games HAVE to be designed around?  Hmm, this might be where the lack of innovation issues that people have with SWTOR is coming from.  I know it bothers me that Bioware, this giant behemoth supposedly awesome company, isn't innovating in these areas.  Guess it's too much to ask.

     

    Balance in general can be satiated by mirrored classes.  Most apparent in PvP,  but PvE is also important, and if you have the same classes on each side, theres no talk about how one side finishes quests easier due to a particular classes ability set.

     

    Balanced classes help, simply due to the way issues were previously with FOTM builds.  Everyone flocks to whats powerful,  then it gets "balanced"  then they go somewhere else,  and the cycle continues.  If you look down the line,  or hell, if you play SWTOR,  what did you see?  Well, you didn't see a single class dominate PvP,  nor did you see a single class dominate the PvE areas.  (outside of starter planets of course).   You saw diversity.  In my time in Beta... those many months,  I saw every build under the sun for every class,  even builds you wouldn't expect,  and even though the diversity wasn't there in terms of my consular having a completely different spec as someone elses inquisitor,  the choices you make for your class and the way you play them is much more important.

    So IS SWTOR balanced then?  If not, then mirroring doesn't really work for the balance issue and personally, I'd rather have more class choices than have to sit on the balance fence all day.  If it DOES work, will it get schewed if they make more classes in the future?

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  • KuinnKuinn MestaPosts: 2,093Member

    Originally posted by clankyasp

    so WoW can claim they have 24 classes?

     

    WoW has 10 classes, they dont get divided into totally different classes like the 4 base classes of TOR that make up 8 advanced classes. Sith inquisitor sorcerer is a ranged damage dealer or healer, and assassin is a melee stealth dps or tank. How can anyone call those two the same class?

  • Hellfyre420Hellfyre420 Oakland, CAPosts: 861Member

    So a smuggler can weild a light sabre or get force lightening like the inquisitor can??

     

    If not then i don't see how these are "mirroed" classes.. Do each class have the same skills or something? I know they all look very simular.. But i had no clue a smuggler could use force powers and such lol.


    image

    Currently Playing:
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  • InFlamestwoInFlamestwo HindPosts: 662Member

    If they would do it otherwise it would been a mess to balance PvP and the PvP in SWTOR now is the best in any mmorpg i've played.

    I don't like the republic spells at all from the jedi consular, throwing rocks and metal objects? the sandstorm is pretty cool but i prefer playing empire and cast lightning and stuff like that and i also did'nt like the starter area for republic.

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  • teakboisteakbois Parlin, NJPosts: 2,154Member

    A big problem with balance issues is that players are idiots, and expectthings to be balanced 1v1.  PvP in games like DAoC, Rift, WAR, WoW, etc...Its not 1 on 1, its TEAM BASED.  1 on 1 should have balance issues.

  • davestr1zldavestr1zl MelbPosts: 218Member

    The classes originally a long time ago werent really mirrors at all and over time they've made them identical. I personally think its for the best to have them mirrored, and that having mirrored abilities in a game like swtor doesnt really mean the class plays the same at all... due to your companions, story, faction content, ship, weapons, armour, visuals of skills etc all being completely unique.. so im not really fussed by it. I can, however, understand people's problem with it but I dont personally agree with them.

    Balance IS important, and this is an almost gauranteed way of ensuring balance (or atleast, gauranteed of ensuring balance between the 2 faction's, not necessarily between classes within 1 faction). It also means that while less developement time and resources are spent on balance they can be put into other areas of content.

    I personally think the pros far outweigh the cons of mirrored classes, and as said previously 'mirrored classes' in swtor is far less of an issue than in other games due to so much about the classes being completely different and unique, its more correct to say 'mirrored skills' (which even then have completely unique visuals and animations).

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    The story and animations make them feel completely different in play.

    With the AC's they have 8 classes to balance and as WoW has proved over the past 6-7 years it's STILL hard to get the balance right for PvP with only 8 classes.

    I fully and whole heartedly support the mirroring of classes in TOR because of PvP and PvE balance, and until you play both sides of the mirror as I have (Consular and Inquisitor) you can't fully apprecaite how different they really do feel thanks to the STORY.

    I remember "balance" in PvP in sandbox games like UO and SWG -

    FOTM builds, power builds (tank-mage anyone?)

    SWG had the worst PvP balance ever, between 1-shot Rifleman to Teras Kasi gods to Commandos and then Combat Medics etc.

    Yes, of course I would LOVE to see a game that had UO style freedom with perfect balance, but I'm a realist and mirrored classes = better balance and in a PvP heavy game I will take 16 balanced classes over 4-5 FOTM or OP power builds ANY day of the week.

     

  • CodiviusCodivius LeopoldsburgPosts: 30Member

    I've come to believe that we all like to forget that we believe our avatar is better (YOu are proud on your avatar, no?  After all, it's you.) then those other toons out there, especially the enemy.  Being confronted with the cold undeniable fact that the other guy is EXACTLY as powerfull as you, stings.  So we hate the balance.

    I approve of the choice they made.  Because it 1) Frees up dev time they otherwise had to spend dealing with the flavor of the month.  2)Getting to know your enemy is a lot easier, and this will contribute to better pvp I hope.

    If it were to make spells feel artificial (like the short range blaster rifle example), that'd be a pity, but I haven't come across that problem since I've only played each class type, and never it's opposite.  I might become aware of it if I were to play, like the OP and other testers out there, every possible class.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Currently playing: Skyrim, SWTOR
    Looking forward to: Guildwars 2 ! modestly excited for: The Secret World
    Have played intensely: Rift, Eve, AoC, WoW, Conquer 2.0, Astonia 3
    Have played less intensely: just about everything else

  • Binny45Binny45 St John''s, NFPosts: 478Member Uncommon

    Mirroring may suck, and I certainly don't think these classes are IDENTICAL, just really similar, but the alternative is MUCH worse.

    I still remember playing EQ.  While a Necromancer could have a nap fighting a group of dragons, you had Warriors who couldn't even fight a single green (no exp) mob without help.  The rest of the classes fell in between those two, and there were subtle differences depending on gear and later AA build, but ultimately the games balance was WAY out of whack.  This is not nearly as bad if it's a PvE server, but for PvP it can kill your game.  Not striking a balance does two things: a) frustrates the HELL out of players and b) you have the same class with the same gear running around in droves.  It stops being about the whole game and only about the class.

    It's hard trying to make each class unique.  The tiniest difference may not do much in the early levels, but the butterfly effect at lvl 50 could be HUGE.

    It's the lesser of two evils.

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  • LordRelicLordRelic clearfield, UTPosts: 281Member

    Originally posted by Paragus1

    I agree with you.   It completely hurts the prospect of giving each side a distinctive feel and feels like they opted to cut corners either out of laziness or for the sake of balancing.   Just another in a long line of examples of how they are trying to dumb everything down to the lowest common denominator.

    lol It just proves when you want balanced and fair pvp this is what you get.. Thanks pvpers you fked it up again.

  • tool089tool089 Collinsville, ILPosts: 63Member

    I don't know if there's a decent MMO out there with varying classes on each side.. WoW tried it early on with Paladin/Shaman, but they ended up giving it to both sides..  I don't think giving both sides completely different classes is even possible to balance properly, and I wouldn't have wanted the devs wasting their time trying to balance everything when they could add content or fix actual bugs.  I think if they didn't do this, then all of the complaints would be about one side having an OP class, which is just as annoying.

    My complaints would be that there aren't enough classes..

  • CodiviusCodivius LeopoldsburgPosts: 30Member

    Originally posted by Hellfyre420

    So a smuggler can weild a light sabre or get force lightening like the inquisitor can??

     

    If not then i don't see how these are "mirroed" classes.. Do each class have the same skills or something? I know they all look very simular.. But i had no clue a smuggler could use force powers and such lol.




     

    The visual effects are different, but the mathematical consequences  are exactly the same.  So for every spell 'A' on your smuggler you'll have a spell 'B' on your imperial agent that will roll the same amount of dice, will only work at the same distance, affect  the same area size etc...

    Currently playing: Skyrim, SWTOR
    Looking forward to: Guildwars 2 ! modestly excited for: The Secret World
    Have played intensely: Rift, Eve, AoC, WoW, Conquer 2.0, Astonia 3
    Have played less intensely: just about everything else

  • OzmodanOzmodan Hilliard, OHPosts: 7,193Member Uncommon

    They mirrored them because they want to keep it solo friendly.  Heaven forbid you team with someone.  It is a wonder they even allow groups.  

    Why even call it a MMO?

  • LeucentLeucent Penticton, BCPosts: 2,371Member

    Originally posted by Ozmodan

    They mirrored them because they want to keep it solo friendly.  Heaven forbid you team with someone.  It is a wonder they even allow groups.  

    Why even call it a MMO?

    Lol, huh??

  • LordRelicLordRelic clearfield, UTPosts: 281Member

    Originally posted by Codivius



    Originally posted by Hellfyre420



    So a smuggler can weild a light sabre or get force lightening like the inquisitor can??





     





    If not then i don't see how these are "mirroed" classes.. Do each class have the same skills or something? I know they all look very simular.. But i had no clue a smuggler could use force powers and such lol.










     

    The visual effects are different, but the mathematical consequences  are exactly the same.  So for every spell 'A' on your smuggler you'll have a spell 'B' on your imperial agent that will roll the same amount of dice, will only work at the same distance, affect  the same area size etc...

    OMG there both using math oh wtf has this world come too.. so the class A punches darth vader in the nuts should have a differant reaction the class B punching him in the nuts? i dont understand?

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