I disagree. You can still have a completely unique experience playing your mirrored class based on the advance class you take.
Both the Smuggler and the Imperial Agent have two builds. A Healer and a DPS Role.
I plan to have my smuggler as a Healer and my Agent as a DPS. That means that while thier starting abilities are going to be the same, after level 10 they are going to have very different playstyles.
Sorry Mr. MikeB, but I have to think you are way off here. I see absolutely NO problem with mirrored classes. My reasoning is pretty simple. First, the gear looks different. That may not be a huge deal, but it adds a little different flavor to the classes. Second, the weapons are different. Again, not a huge deal but the flavor thing kicks in. Third, the animations are different. This one IS a huge deal since the flavor of the classes are dramatically different. Lastly, the STORY is different. That whole "4th Pillar" that BioWare built this game on makes a GIGANTIC difference in the flavor of your characters even if the "Stats" are the same. Having played several of the "Mirrors" now, I can tell you that HOW they played felt much different thanks to the above changes I described.
So while the classes ARE mirrored, the differences that BioWare built in make them completely different.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
My impression is the mirrored classes was less for balancing and more ro avoid people complaining that they have to play one side or the other in order to play the style of character they want.
I do think they could have done a much better job at hiding the fact that they're mirrored but all in all this is fairly low down my list of complaints.
I don't see the problem. Most people i know only play one character anyway. I usually play a lot of alts and this will shorten the games lifespan for me. This is not going to affect my enjoyment of the game, only how long i play it.
I'd rather the classes weren't mirrored completely as far as skills go, but I imagine most people will be playing the classes they choose more for the flavor of the armor, weapons and story. So while one play experience in one class may be "similar" to it's mirror, it really won't be that similar at all. Because once again, you'll have different weapons, armor graphics, and entirely different stories.
Yes, I wish there were some differences, and yes, it's completely due to developer laziness, but you just gotta keep on keeping on.
This.
By standard MMO terms, the skill "mirroring" is undeniable.
But to say that playing the Soldier experience is just like the Bounty Hunter experience is... just intellectually dishonest.
Different weapons
Different companions
Different stories
I've played as both the Soldier and BH. They are entirely different. As a soldier, you are pretty much married and dedicated to the Republic. As a Bounty Hunter, it's all about self-interest.
To anyone that just dismisses the two as identical, I can't help but wonder why you play an RPG in the first place.
This game sounds worse every day. I need diversity. 4 classes (or 8 if you will) won't cut it for me. My hope lies with TSW. Luckily I've got plenty of great single player - er, well, I mean *offline* singleplayer - games to play. Maybe some day a good MMO will come along.
I played BH more than trooper. It's kinda funny that I liked BH more but I think it was the story I liked best. Story for me is what set them apart not abilities. But that is the whole point of this game anyway right, story?
Maybe it's the lazy way to do it, but on the other hand I've seen how much class imbalance can destroy a game's fun. So while it may not be the ideal solution, it is a solution.
I like mirrored classes, and you pretty much said it yourself Mike, WAR was extremely unbalanced at launch. The PvP was a lot of fun until you started noticing these imbalances, then it became tiresome knowing the outcome when you saw a particular class.
Everyone seems to complain when things aren't balanced... and then when they make mirrors so teams are perfectly balanced, now they want individuality.
Yet, mirrored classes have been going on in arena based games, FPS's, fighting games, action games... and so on for a very long time, and its all in the name of balance.
Now, the advanced classes do allow some difference in play for mirrored classes, for those that want to take a different route on playability, but if you want to play the same mirrored class with the same kind of advanced class, I don't think you should have something different.... I think the point would be, that you want to play the same class. If you want to be a scoundrel, but want to heal on your IA too, I don't think you're looking for a difference in gameplay.
Wait, this is a game-breaker? Isn't every MMO like this? Except they don't have "mirrored" classes, they have the SAME classes for each faction.
DAoC certainly was not mirrored.
Mirrored isnt ok when you basically have 4 classes in the entire game because of it.
THIS^^^^!!!!!! Bingo. I love story, but if that's the only way to diversify the classes in an MMORPG, than Bioware doesn't understand MMORPGs. Keep the story but give us more variety. Even 2 more unique classes would have sealed the deal, preferably I would like more. Maybe in a future expack? Do we even know what kind of roadmap this game will have post launch?
All of you bashing the mirrored classes either don't play PvP or at least didn't play PvP in Warhammer. The approach of similar-but-different classes led to a balance nightmare. It was ridiculously unbalanced and subs left in droves once the imbalances were used to their fullest. You had a WP and a BW wiping out entire raid groups...two people wiping out dozens...
Any game that wants PvP to be a significant part of the experience and not just a side-game for fluff needs to have mirrored classes. What seems like a minor difference in skills at face value turns into a potential game-breaker when the min-max parsers get ahold of it.
I'd love to see more variety, but as a player who likes to participate in PvP, it's a sacrifice I'm more than willing to make.
I'd rather the classes weren't mirrored completely as far as skills go, but I imagine most people will be playing the classes they choose more for the flavor of the armor, weapons and story. So while one play experience in one class may be "similar" to it's mirror, it really won't be that similar at all. Because once again, you'll have different weapons, armor graphics, and entirely different stories.
Yes, I wish there were some differences, and yes, it's completely due to developer laziness, but you just gotta keep on keeping on.
This.
By standard MMO terms, the skill "mirroring" is undeniable.
But to say that playing the Soldier experience is just like the Bounty Hunter experience is... just intellectually dishonest.
Different weapons
Different companions
Different stories
I've played as both the Soldier and BH. They are entirely different. As a soldier, you are pretty much married and dedicated to the Republic. As a Bounty Hunter, it's all about self-interest.
To anyone that just dismisses the two as identical, I can't help but wonder why you play an RPG in the first place.
You just brought up a good point. A lot of people, in their mind are playing a mmo, not a mmorpg. They forgot or really don't know what the RPG means. All they care about, and i blame WOW for this , is to power level to the top, and worry about end game. They don't care that the story, companions, ship, weapons, clothing/armor are all different. You know the RPG stuff that makes a mmorpg. No, they care about, trying to be the leet pvper who ganks lowbies and is the king of the hill for everything pvp in the game.
The only thing that WOW has accomplished with bringing all the millions and millions of people to the mmorpg world, is to bring in a whole generation of gamers that think since they love FPS and the like, every game that has pvp including mmo's should play just like that.
I fully commend Bioware for bringing back the RPG in the mmo genre. Yes, the game may not be this full blown sandbox that so many people here crave, but from my view, after playing two beta weekends, i have never felt more attached to a character, and this goes for my SWG pre-cu jedi that took 6 months to obtain.
I think back at my DAOC days. I still think is the best game ever created. The balance issues were crazy, still fun but ridiculous. I remember running with healer and I was a warrior. We could take out full groups with ease. Then vn boards would light up, healers are OP insta mez crap. Thats all it was a quick on the button healer and my warrior who didn t even hit super hard, he was full shield specced, mez go after 1 dead, then the next etc. Alot of the times 1 maybe 2 would break mez and I with my high shiled spec sat and protected the healer. She barely got hit. We literally would dance and wave etc while we killed the rest.
I was insane how easy it was. Even though it was fun the balance sucked and ultimately made poeple mad.
Wait, this is a game-breaker? Isn't every MMO like this? Except they don't have "mirrored" classes, they have the SAME classes for each faction.
DAoC certainly was not mirrored.
Mirrored isnt ok when you basically have 4 classes in the entire game because of it.
THIS^^^^!!!!!! Bingo. I love story, but if that's the only way to diversify the classes in an MMORPG, than Bioware doesn't understand MMORPGs. Keep the story but give us more variety. Even 2 more unique classes would have sealed the deal, preferably I would like more. Maybe in a future expack? Do we even know what kind of roadmap this game will have post launch?
You have 8 classes total. 4 Base classes. Other minor variations depending on build and skill choice.
So is the issue PVE or PVP balance? If it is, why don't we have different skills for PVP for each class then? Why nerf our choices to bring about "balance" when the balance issues can be tackled from a different angle that has nothing to do with nerfs or buffs or developing a game with little to no classes in order to save themselves from the headaches of the "current" mmorpg balance issues.
Just curious, but isn't this why GW2's system of no trinity possibly a different take on the same "balance" issue? Or is it something that class/level based games HAVE to be designed around? Hmm, this might be where the lack of innovation issues that people have with SWTOR is coming from. I know it bothers me that Bioware, this giant behemoth supposedly awesome company, isn't innovating in these areas. Guess it's too much to ask.
I dont know why people are freaking out other thn they are mad at themselves for not understanding what the dev teams said on multiplr occasions, that SWTOR was going to be a traditional mmo with voice overs and nothing more. I had a feeling there was going to be nothing cutting-edge/innovative about the game aside from the voice acting which takes up like 10 gigs or more and wasnt going to be like bioware single player/offline games.
Mirrored Classes is something we can blame WoW for since even that goliath of a company couldn't even manage to balance a Shaman and a Paladin, gave up and made them available for both factions.
I have seen very few games with unique classes in a 2 faction game, but there was one game, DAoC that offered unique classes in not only 2 factions, but 3. So it is possible to do, but those who are lazy and loathe monthly fan cries about balance will choose not to.
I really don't blame BioWare for following Blizzard's path of laziness, for I too can't stand reading 100's of threads each month about how one player keeps getting owned by someone else in PvP.
Perhaps the key is 3 factions. Since we haven't really seen a 3 faction game since DaoC, and all of these 2 faction games have massive balance issues no matter what is tweaked, nerfed or buffed, it stands to reason that 3 factions is the answer here. Guess we'll maybe see with that game Prime.
My problem with mirroring is simple: redemption and temptation...
No MMo I've played but the old SWG allowed you to change sides as part of your personal history... a real shame...
And implying the classes are REALLY mirrored, there's no reason why they couldn't be redeemed or tempted to change sides.
-A jedi should be able to turn into a sith and a sith could be redemned into a jedi... being a Stih Warrior with light side points is... counter-productive to say the least.
if the classes are mirrored, there's absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be able to turn, cause they won't be more powerful, or alter the balance...
Now, with the other "civilian" classes, bounty hunter coulda been enlisted, and a imperial agent could start using his contacts to change sides...
Ain't this article just like comparing Coca Cola with Pepsi?
I played a Jedi Consular and a Sith Inquisitor, sure I could see the spells were the same just different animations and sound, but the experience between those 2 classes were still very very different. I would love to point out the differences but that would involve me going into spoilers, which I won't.
I don't think mirrored classes are bad at all. if you look at it from the other side you have an MMO with 8 (advanced) classes and on top of that each faction gets their own unique story and graphics for those classes.
sounds at least as good as most other MMOs. just don't think of them as different classes but as unique flavors of the same class. ballancing is already a proble peole will complain about from now to ethernity so i see no problem. remember those mmos that make the difference between the different dps/healer/tank classes so small it doesn't even matter anymore if you are a plate wearing healer or cloth wearing healer. if this is the worst complaint about swtor it will be a huge success.
Those of you who are against mirriored classes, are the minority, plain and simple. Mirrored classes,e specailly from the pvp side is a good thing, it means people can choose to play waht they want to play.
So every class is unique, i guess i can only play one faction, i hope my friends are playing that faction, i hope my guild wants to play that faction.
I dont get all this sudden hate on mirriored classes, since when is it a bad thing? Name one mmo, just one, that doesnt have mirrored classes.
The OP just wrote an article explaining it. But I guess you skipped reading it just to troll the thread. And by the way, it would be easier to list an mmo does use mirrored classes. Because that list would be a lot shorter. There are other mmo's out there other than WoW in case you didn't know.
So is the issue PVE or PVP balance? If it is, why don't we have different skills for PVP for each class then? Why nerf our choices to bring about "balance" when the balance issues can be tackled from a different angle that has nothing to do with nerfs or buffs or developing a game with little to no classes in order to save themselves from the headaches of the "current" mmorpg balance issues.
Just curious, but isn't this why GW2's system of no trinity possibly a different take on the same "balance" issue? Or is it something that class/level based games HAVE to be designed around? Hmm, this might be where the lack of innovation issues that people have with SWTOR is coming from. I know it bothers me that Bioware, this giant behemoth supposedly awesome company, isn't innovating in these areas. Guess it's too much to ask.
I can almost promise you that when GW2 comes out you will have the same bitching and moaning from pve and pvper's and balance, nerf issue's. Keep putting your almighty GW2 that high on a pedistal and you are sure to be highly disappointed once you get to play the actual game.
Every post that you write just keeps showing your disdain for TOR and your zealous fanboyism for GW2.
Make tank class compulsory? Well both side will need at least one of them
Make healer class compulsory? Well both side is gonna have at least one
DPS? who cares about them, theres 50 running on the street right now.
A lot of problems will a lot of MMORPG comes down to the basic fundamentals of how current MMORPG are built upon.
The holy trinity isn't critical in making an mmo. It is a weak mechanic devised to make players dependant on others. GW2 thankfully is getting rid of the trinity. I think it's time other devs though outside of the box as well.
The reviewer must be playing a different game. I played both a trooper and a bounty hunter and they were definitely not the same. Similar in some respects, but not the same. Again, the same thing with the smuggler and the imperial agent. Not the same. I had the same experience with the consular and the inquisitor. Definitely NOT the same.
Banegrivm Leader of the 1st Fist of Light www.1stfistoflight.com
Comments
I disagree. You can still have a completely unique experience playing your mirrored class based on the advance class you take.
Both the Smuggler and the Imperial Agent have two builds. A Healer and a DPS Role.
I plan to have my smuggler as a Healer and my Agent as a DPS. That means that while thier starting abilities are going to be the same, after level 10 they are going to have very different playstyles.
Advanced Classes are also mirrored?
Shock!!
..Cake..
Sorry Mr. MikeB, but I have to think you are way off here. I see absolutely NO problem with mirrored classes. My reasoning is pretty simple. First, the gear looks different. That may not be a huge deal, but it adds a little different flavor to the classes. Second, the weapons are different. Again, not a huge deal but the flavor thing kicks in. Third, the animations are different. This one IS a huge deal since the flavor of the classes are dramatically different. Lastly, the STORY is different. That whole "4th Pillar" that BioWare built this game on makes a GIGANTIC difference in the flavor of your characters even if the "Stats" are the same. Having played several of the "Mirrors" now, I can tell you that HOW they played felt much different thanks to the above changes I described.
So while the classes ARE mirrored, the differences that BioWare built in make them completely different.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
My impression is the mirrored classes was less for balancing and more ro avoid people complaining that they have to play one side or the other in order to play the style of character they want.
I do think they could have done a much better job at hiding the fact that they're mirrored but all in all this is fairly low down my list of complaints.
I don't see the problem. Most people i know only play one character anyway. I usually play a lot of alts and this will shorten the games lifespan for me. This is not going to affect my enjoyment of the game, only how long i play it.
This.
By standard MMO terms, the skill "mirroring" is undeniable.
But to say that playing the Soldier experience is just like the Bounty Hunter experience is... just intellectually dishonest.
Different weapons
Different companions
Different stories
I've played as both the Soldier and BH. They are entirely different. As a soldier, you are pretty much married and dedicated to the Republic. As a Bounty Hunter, it's all about self-interest.
To anyone that just dismisses the two as identical, I can't help but wonder why you play an RPG in the first place.
This game sounds worse every day. I need diversity. 4 classes (or 8 if you will) won't cut it for me. My hope lies with TSW. Luckily I've got plenty of great single player - er, well, I mean *offline* singleplayer - games to play. Maybe some day a good MMO will come along.
I played BH more than trooper. It's kinda funny that I liked BH more but I think it was the story I liked best. Story for me is what set them apart not abilities. But that is the whole point of this game anyway right, story?
Maybe it's the lazy way to do it, but on the other hand I've seen how much class imbalance can destroy a game's fun. So while it may not be the ideal solution, it is a solution.
I like mirrored classes, and you pretty much said it yourself Mike, WAR was extremely unbalanced at launch. The PvP was a lot of fun until you started noticing these imbalances, then it became tiresome knowing the outcome when you saw a particular class.
Everyone seems to complain when things aren't balanced... and then when they make mirrors so teams are perfectly balanced, now they want individuality.
Yet, mirrored classes have been going on in arena based games, FPS's, fighting games, action games... and so on for a very long time, and its all in the name of balance.
Now, the advanced classes do allow some difference in play for mirrored classes, for those that want to take a different route on playability, but if you want to play the same mirrored class with the same kind of advanced class, I don't think you should have something different.... I think the point would be, that you want to play the same class. If you want to be a scoundrel, but want to heal on your IA too, I don't think you're looking for a difference in gameplay.
THIS^^^^!!!!!! Bingo. I love story, but if that's the only way to diversify the classes in an MMORPG, than Bioware doesn't understand MMORPGs. Keep the story but give us more variety. Even 2 more unique classes would have sealed the deal, preferably I would like more. Maybe in a future expack? Do we even know what kind of roadmap this game will have post launch?
All of you bashing the mirrored classes either don't play PvP or at least didn't play PvP in Warhammer. The approach of similar-but-different classes led to a balance nightmare. It was ridiculously unbalanced and subs left in droves once the imbalances were used to their fullest. You had a WP and a BW wiping out entire raid groups...two people wiping out dozens...
Any game that wants PvP to be a significant part of the experience and not just a side-game for fluff needs to have mirrored classes. What seems like a minor difference in skills at face value turns into a potential game-breaker when the min-max parsers get ahold of it.
I'd love to see more variety, but as a player who likes to participate in PvP, it's a sacrifice I'm more than willing to make.
You just brought up a good point. A lot of people, in their mind are playing a mmo, not a mmorpg. They forgot or really don't know what the RPG means. All they care about, and i blame WOW for this , is to power level to the top, and worry about end game. They don't care that the story, companions, ship, weapons, clothing/armor are all different. You know the RPG stuff that makes a mmorpg. No, they care about, trying to be the leet pvper who ganks lowbies and is the king of the hill for everything pvp in the game.
The only thing that WOW has accomplished with bringing all the millions and millions of people to the mmorpg world, is to bring in a whole generation of gamers that think since they love FPS and the like, every game that has pvp including mmo's should play just like that.
I fully commend Bioware for bringing back the RPG in the mmo genre. Yes, the game may not be this full blown sandbox that so many people here crave, but from my view, after playing two beta weekends, i have never felt more attached to a character, and this goes for my SWG pre-cu jedi that took 6 months to obtain.
I think back at my DAOC days. I still think is the best game ever created. The balance issues were crazy, still fun but ridiculous. I remember running with healer and I was a warrior. We could take out full groups with ease. Then vn boards would light up, healers are OP insta mez crap. Thats all it was a quick on the button healer and my warrior who didn t even hit super hard, he was full shield specced, mez go after 1 dead, then the next etc. Alot of the times 1 maybe 2 would break mez and I with my high shiled spec sat and protected the healer. She barely got hit. We literally would dance and wave etc while we killed the rest.
I was insane how easy it was. Even though it was fun the balance sucked and ultimately made poeple mad.
You have 8 classes total. 4 Base classes. Other minor variations depending on build and skill choice.
So is the issue PVE or PVP balance? If it is, why don't we have different skills for PVP for each class then? Why nerf our choices to bring about "balance" when the balance issues can be tackled from a different angle that has nothing to do with nerfs or buffs or developing a game with little to no classes in order to save themselves from the headaches of the "current" mmorpg balance issues.
Just curious, but isn't this why GW2's system of no trinity possibly a different take on the same "balance" issue? Or is it something that class/level based games HAVE to be designed around? Hmm, this might be where the lack of innovation issues that people have with SWTOR is coming from. I know it bothers me that Bioware, this giant behemoth supposedly awesome company, isn't innovating in these areas. Guess it's too much to ask.
I dont know why people are freaking out other thn they are mad at themselves for not understanding what the dev teams said on multiplr occasions, that SWTOR was going to be a traditional mmo with voice overs and nothing more. I had a feeling there was going to be nothing cutting-edge/innovative about the game aside from the voice acting which takes up like 10 gigs or more and wasnt going to be like bioware single player/offline games.
Perhaps the key is 3 factions. Since we haven't really seen a 3 faction game since DaoC, and all of these 2 faction games have massive balance issues no matter what is tweaked, nerfed or buffed, it stands to reason that 3 factions is the answer here. Guess we'll maybe see with that game Prime.
My problem with mirroring is simple: redemption and temptation...
No MMo I've played but the old SWG allowed you to change sides as part of your personal history... a real shame...
And implying the classes are REALLY mirrored, there's no reason why they couldn't be redeemed or tempted to change sides.
-A jedi should be able to turn into a sith and a sith could be redemned into a jedi... being a Stih Warrior with light side points is... counter-productive to say the least.
if the classes are mirrored, there's absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be able to turn, cause they won't be more powerful, or alter the balance...
Now, with the other "civilian" classes, bounty hunter coulda been enlisted, and a imperial agent could start using his contacts to change sides...
Thats Holy trinity game balance for you
Make tank class compulsory? Well both side will need at least one of them
Make healer class compulsory? Well both side is gonna have at least one
DPS? who cares about them, theres 50 running on the street right now.
A lot of problems will a lot of MMORPG comes down to the basic fundamentals of how current MMORPG are built upon.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
Ain't this article just like comparing Coca Cola with Pepsi?
I played a Jedi Consular and a Sith Inquisitor, sure I could see the spells were the same just different animations and sound, but the experience between those 2 classes were still very very different. I would love to point out the differences but that would involve me going into spoilers, which I won't.
I don't think mirrored classes are bad at all. if you look at it from the other side you have an MMO with 8 (advanced) classes and on top of that each faction gets their own unique story and graphics for those classes.
sounds at least as good as most other MMOs. just don't think of them as different classes but as unique flavors of the same class. ballancing is already a proble peole will complain about from now to ethernity so i see no problem. remember those mmos that make the difference between the different dps/healer/tank classes so small it doesn't even matter anymore if you are a plate wearing healer or cloth wearing healer. if this is the worst complaint about swtor it will be a huge success.
The OP just wrote an article explaining it. But I guess you skipped reading it just to troll the thread. And by the way, it would be easier to list an mmo does use mirrored classes. Because that list would be a lot shorter. There are other mmo's out there other than WoW in case you didn't know.
I can almost promise you that when GW2 comes out you will have the same bitching and moaning from pve and pvper's and balance, nerf issue's. Keep putting your almighty GW2 that high on a pedistal and you are sure to be highly disappointed once you get to play the actual game.
Every post that you write just keeps showing your disdain for TOR and your zealous fanboyism for GW2.
The holy trinity isn't critical in making an mmo. It is a weak mechanic devised to make players dependant on others. GW2 thankfully is getting rid of the trinity. I think it's time other devs though outside of the box as well.
The reviewer must be playing a different game. I played both a trooper and a bounty hunter and they were definitely not the same. Similar in some respects, but not the same. Again, the same thing with the smuggler and the imperial agent. Not the same. I had the same experience with the consular and the inquisitor. Definitely NOT the same.
Banegrivm
Leader of the 1st Fist of Light
www.1stfistoflight.com