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Why are people obsessed with difficulty and death penalty?

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  • LienhartLienhart Markham, ONPosts: 635Member

    Originally posted by Greenzor

    The danger is fun. It turns boring activities into thrilling ones. Also, The danger prevents people from exploring certain types of content and rewards those who do. The danger keeps the industry working and so on. 

    No death penalty = No danger.


     

    Really?

    Because when I'm riding on the street I don't pull wheelies and stoppies for no reason. I still find riding fun without danger.

    I also find World of Warcraft fun with a few friends when we just blaze through dungeons after we blazed.

  • LienhartLienhart Markham, ONPosts: 635Member

    Originally posted by bossalinie

    Originally posted by Xthos

    Difficulty - Whats the point of playing something that is too easy?  If their is no challenge, then it would be mind numbing to me.

    Death Penalty - I prefer having one that will set you back say 15-30 minutes of play time, thats not too harsh imo.  It makes it to where you pay attention more, and to where you are just not dying to gate back to bind to sell or logoff or whatever...Also when their is no death penalty, people tend to just do stupid things and don't care, from my experience.

     

    I tend to get more involved/immersed in games that are challenging and have a death penalty, verse games that are easy and have no penalty, I just don't find myself caring if I die, and 'ranger gating' to bind to log out quickly etc..

     

    I work hard enough everyday on job. I'm not in to mood to come home a pay company to make me work harder on a game. SOme of us realize that it is just a game and nothing more than a form of entertainment. If an MMORPG doesn't wan't to set us back 30 minutes and allows us to jump right in and enjoy the meat of the game, then I'm all for it.

     

    I'm going to let you know something. Most people who play games for entertainment don't care how hard or easy the game is for other people.

    ^

    This man has a brain, this is also the type of person that is like more than 50% of WoW's sub...and every other MMO that wants to be successful.

  • ElricmerrenElricmerren White Bear Lake, MNPosts: 295Member

    Going to try this again lol. Why are people obbessed with difficulty and death penalties? Pretty simple they are sick of the easy games and find that they need a certain kind of play either more difficult, meaning, or somethig to have fun with it. Like lreal life everyone s different and so all will enjoy different thigns as well as at different levels of that type. Issue is these people are not the majority anymore and so are not cattered to, as such they are feeling left out as well as unfullfiled in their gaming experience. Simple really vary simple to understand.

  • SuraknarSuraknar Montreal, QCPosts: 824Member

    Originally posted by Elricmerren

    Going to try this again lol. Why are people obbessed with difficulty and death penalties? Pretty simple they are sick of the easy games and find that they need a certain kind of play either more difficult, meaning, or somethig to have fun with it. Like lreal life everyone s different and so all will enjoy different thigns as well as at different levels of that type. Issue is these people are not the majority anymore and so are not cattered to, as such they are feeling left out as well as unfullfiled in their gaming experience. Simple really vary simple to understand.

    Then why aren't these people all go play Darkfall etc..?

    I know Darkfall has what is being asked here...with much passion by many at that.

    Darkfall did many things badly in my opinion, even DP, but it did try hard to bring a DP that caters to the people here.

    You can be punished for failure while you are crafting in an NPC town in Darkfall, you can be punished for failure for just trying to advance in the world, and you can be punished for failure just because someone did not like your name or your looks in Darkfall.

    More punishment for failure you cannot have. LoL

     

    I really do not see where the failure of these exemples really is, and maybe that is why I am not playing Darkfall yet, it should be Catering to all those here that are obsessed by DP of thsi sort.

    Why aren't they playing DF then?

    - Duke Suraknar -
    Order of the Silver Star, OSS

    image
    ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard

  • SephirosoSephiroso Marietta, GAPosts: 1,160Member

    Originally posted by Suraknar

    Originally posted by Elricmerren

    Going to try this again lol. Why are people obbessed with difficulty and death penalties? Pretty simple they are sick of the easy games and find that they need a certain kind of play either more difficult, meaning, or somethig to have fun with it. Like lreal life everyone s different and so all will enjoy different thigns as well as at different levels of that type. Issue is these people are not the majority anymore and so are not cattered to, as such they are feeling left out as well as unfullfiled in their gaming experience. Simple really vary simple to understand.

    Then why aren't these people all go play Darkfall etc..?

    I know Darkfall has what is being asked here...with much passion by many at that.

    Darkfall did many things badly in my opinion, even DP, but it did try hard to bring a DP that caters to the people here.

    You can be punished for failure while you are crafting in an NPC town in Darkfall, you can be punished for failure for just trying to advance in the world, and you can be punished for failure just because someone did not like your name or your looks in Darkfall.

    More punishment for failure you cannot have. LoL

     

    I really do not see where the failure of these exemples really is, and maybe that is why I am not playing Darkfall yet, it should be Catering to all those here that are obsessed by DP of thsi sort.

    Why aren't they playing DF then?

    dont be foolish. there will never be 1 game that unites everyone that wants a certain type of game. EVERY. SINGLE. FACTOR. in a game can turn someone off completely, be it the graphics, the music, or the monster types being killed. just because the core gameplay may be what you THINK those type of people are asking for, doesn't mean thats the only thing that matters. if its not their type of graphics, they wont play it, if they hate the music, and refuse to mute it, they wont play it, the list goes on.

    image
    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  • ElricmerrenElricmerren White Bear Lake, MNPosts: 295Member

    Originally posted by Suraknar

    Originally posted by Elricmerren

    Going to try this again lol. Why are people obbessed with difficulty and death penalties? Pretty simple they are sick of the easy games and find that they need a certain kind of play either more difficult, meaning, or somethig to have fun with it. Like lreal life everyone s different and so all will enjoy different thigns as well as at different levels of that type. Issue is these people are not the majority anymore and so are not cattered to, as such they are feeling left out as well as unfullfiled in their gaming experience. Simple really vary simple to understand.

    Then why aren't these people all go play Darkfall etc..?

    I know Darkfall has what is being asked here...with much passion by many at that.

    Darkfall did many things badly in my opinion, even DP, but it did try hard to bring a DP that caters to the people here.

    You can be punished for failure while you are crafting in an NPC town in Darkfall, you can be punished for failure for just trying to advance in the world, and you can be punished for failure just because someone did not like your name or your looks in Darkfall.

    More punishment for failure you cannot have. LoL

     

    I really do not see where the failure of these exemples really is, and maybe that is why I am not playing Darkfall yet, it should be Catering to all those here that are obsessed by DP of thsi sort.

    Why aren't they playing DF then?

     But to most they want a triple A mmo, that is not to say they all want that, but that a good amount do. Alot of Df's dp is not meaning ful yes you have risk but the reward is not worth the risk in man aspects, another versions not as good is eve many find the risk of using a high cost ship not worth it for the penelty of failure. IT would be like jumping off a five story building for a sub to have for dnnner it is risk with a penalty yet is that risj worth the penalty? No well i hope to freaking not for most people's sake. Older games like l2, uo. even had a system with good management of risk to rewards making the penalty  worth risking for it. THen you also have that DF, L2 and such just not being completely up to date and so many will play them but want a new AAA mmos that cattter to the risk to reward setting with a worth while dealth penalty.

    Let me ask you this when you played your favorite game/mmo and then moved on to a game that was just not as good completed to it, did you want a better game that matched hwo fun and enjoyable your other game was? To have that polished look, nearly perfect (in your eyes.) system, and controls that immersed you in the game.

  • FabioCapelaFabioCapela FrancaPosts: 23Member

    Originally posted by Elricmerren

    Going to try this again lol. Why are people obbessed with difficulty and death penalties? Pretty simple they are sick of the easy games and find that they need a certain kind of play either more difficult, meaning, or somethig to have fun with it. Like lreal life everyone s different and so all will enjoy different thigns as well as at different levels of that type. Issue is these people are not the majority anymore and so are not cattered to, as such they are feeling left out as well as unfullfiled in their gaming experience. Simple really vary simple to understand.

    They are catered to, but:

    - For MMOs, usually not in the same games as players that don't want a death penalty. After all, they want everyone else who plays the game to be subject to the same death penalty. I see only one way to try to please both groups at the same time: having different servers, with different rules. AoC and Ultima Online actually do this, though in both cases the different server types were released way after launch.

    - They are less catered to than players that dislike harsh death penalties for the simple reason there are more players out there that don't really want death penalties. If the devs want their game to have a general appeal, but don't want the complexity of catering to two groups of players often at odds, they are most likely going to choose the largest group to cater to.

    I don't see this changing any time soon. While players that dislike death penalties often don't care if there is an optional death penalty - they would just turn it off - players that want a harsher death penalty often take offense if other players can, in some way, turn the death penalty off; they want everyone else to have to go through the same challenges, no matter the other player's oppinion. Unless and until a way is found to let players that dislike death penalties avoid them, while not irking those that want death penalties, the situation won't be changing.

    For my part, I stay away from harsh death penalties (i.e., almost anything harsher than WoW). I either don't even start playing the game, or I leave as soon as I notice that I don't like the intensity of the death penalty. After all, with the amount of games out there, there are plenty of options if I don't like one aspect of a game.

  • ElricmerrenElricmerren White Bear Lake, MNPosts: 295Member

    Originally posted by FabioCapela

    Originally posted by Elricmerren

    Going to try this again lol. Why are people obbessed with difficulty and death penalties? Pretty simple they are sick of the easy games and find that they need a certain kind of play either more difficult, meaning, or somethig to have fun with it. Like lreal life everyone s different and so all will enjoy different thigns as well as at different levels of that type. Issue is these people are not the majority anymore and so are not cattered to, as such they are feeling left out as well as unfullfiled in their gaming experience. Simple really vary simple to understand.

    They are catered to, but:

    - For MMOs, usually not in the same games as players that don't want a death penalty. After all, they want everyone else who plays the game to be subject to the same death penalty. I see only one way to try to please both groups at the same time: having different servers, with different rules. AoC and Ultima Online actually do this, though in both cases the different server types were released way after launch.

    - They are less catered to than players that dislike harsh death penalties for the simple reason there are more players out there that don't really want death penalties. If the devs want their game to have a general appeal, but don't want the complexity of catering to two groups of players often at odds, they are most likely going to choose the largest group to cater to.

    I don't see this changing any time soon. While players that dislike death penalties often don't care if there is an optional death penalty - they would just turn it off - players that want a harsher death penalty often take offense if other players can, in some way, turn the death penalty off; they want everyone else to have to go through the same challenges, no matter the other player's oppinion. Unless and until a way is found to let players that dislike death penalties avoid them, while not irking those that want death penalties, the situation won't be changing.

    For my part, I stay away from harsh death penalties (i.e., almost anything harsher than WoW). I either don't even start playing the game, or I leave as soon as I notice that I don't like the intensity of the death penalty. After all, with the amount of games out there, there are plenty of options if I don't like one aspect of a game.

     I knwo what you mean i have been playing since uo basically, and seen the trends so far go just liek that. THe issue is i would not call what this group of player gets as being cattered to but more that they get appeased with servers that give them basically what they want, yet never actually being the focus of the game as in many of these games the dp or difficulty is added on to it not a central focus or a main point of the game. It is like saying since wow has pvp that it catters to pvper, it is just not true as the pvp was added on to appease the pvp group of players there.

  • EverSkellyEverSkelly AlytusPosts: 334Member

    Well, i don't think the people actually want harsh death penalties and a very high difficulty. I think it's just gamers' natural response to being fed dumb gameplay, where you don't have to think, try harder, feel the consequenses of your mistakes and so on. People are tired of games where you are on autopilot. MMORPGs are loaded with fluff, which may be short time fun, but not lasting.

    Simply put, people just want to feel that they (their abilities) are challenged in their virtual worlds and want to win these challenges. Winning in something you feel it's too easy doesn't give you satisfaction.

  • ShadowMajereShadowMajere Beaver Falls, PAPosts: 20Member

    Originally posted by Lienhart

    Originally posted by Greenzor

    The danger is fun. It turns boring activities into thrilling ones. Also, The danger prevents people from exploring certain types of content and rewards those who do. The danger keeps the industry working and so on. 

    No death penalty = No danger.


     

    Really?

    Because when I'm riding on the street I don't pull wheelies and stoppies for no reason. I still find riding fun without danger.

    I also find World of Warcraft fun with a few friends when we just blaze through dungeons after we blazed.

    here we go with the analogies of Riding a rice burner and playing a game.

    I own a GTO Judge, Sure it's fun to drive around and have everyone look at you. But it's even more fun to take the bitch out to a track or the lowly traveled road and burn it up against another driver seeing who wins. The Risk of flipping my judge, loosing control from a blown out tire at top speeds, having the engine blow out and catch fire, or in the worst case scenario trying tou get away with Motorolla chasing you (some will get that, Some won't)

    In games I can either play your cookie cut MMO's that let me run around PVE, PVP with no risk and no danger, no true rush from the " Oh shit! That dude Fucked me up and almost made me loose my shit" or... Damn I died, eh :: Waits for 10 seconds to pass and presses respawn:: and go on blandly running dungeons again either Solo or if I suck with a group because the big bad monster might whoop my ass. Real gamers Want Risk vs Reward, We want to feel like we achieved something, we busted our asses Risked our shit and knew if we failed, which is not an option, that we goto pay more attention next time, study our opponents or mob (without looking at a Wiki or YOUTUBE video on how to succeed)  we figure it out on our own, we take the risks and the challenge openly, throwing fate into the wind, If we win we get epic items, if we fail we get the challenge of having to reclaim our stuff either before someone else grabs it, or it vanishes. As much as I like the Rush of racing my vehicle. I also like the rush of a game I am playing. I personally don't like games that have no risk, theres no challenge. In PVP I know I just respawn and face a different opponent, in Real PVP I know that I better kill that dude/dudette or just like Life, If I die, well I just lost my shit. Without a challenge you are not truley playing a game, you are just going through the motions of a game. Some people like not having to have a risk, Just like some people like living in a free country without the urge to defend it's freedoms. They know well that theres some one else that will defend it for them and just leech off of society ranting and raving because of the first amendment not truley understanding the loss that occured to grant them that freedom. If everyone just went through the motions think where we would be today, and before anyone goess off about it, No I didn't Serve, not that I did not want to, I just was not accepted due to issues I had, But that does not mean I do not know the risk my friends in service take to give me the ability to play these games, rant and rave and troll the internet with freedom.

    If you do not like games with a challenge or a penalty if you die, IT is and I say this with pissing off the community the fact that you can not survive the challenge offered to you. You are one of the gamers that want to live in a world where there is no risk, is no challenge, just a cookie cut life knowing if all fails, Well you know you have that security blanket to hug to keep the monsters that players and more difficult AI/NPC's offer, away.

     

    Rant over... For now..

    image

  • Sid_ViciousSid_Vicious Sandpoint, IDPosts: 1,526Member

    Well duh this is easy to answer. You don't get hurt in real life when failing in a game. I may admire people who are very skilled at doing many of the things mentioned here but a part of me thinks, 'this person is stupid for risking his life just to impress others or whatever'. I have not broken any bones or ever had stitches because I play it safe and do not take risks often at all that invole possibly hurting myself. That is why I love challenging myself with video games instead of real life activities that could injure me. I have a greater chance of living longer than those who do take those risks. I have taken many risks with drugs though . .. so I guess I have been a risk taker where others wouldn't dare but that makes me stupid and nothing to do with bravery. Same thing goes with dare devil stunts. Video games that have high difficulty or something like a death penalty are potentially more likely to summon real emotions within the players like "damn it I died!!!!" or "woooot epic win!!!". Just like in real life but you don't have to risk hurting yourself.

    NEWS FLASH! A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore Darkfall Online player and knew just what to do.

  • ElricmerrenElricmerren White Bear Lake, MNPosts: 295Member

    Originally posted by ShadowMajere

    In games I can either play your cookie cut MMO's that let me run around PVE, PVP with no risk and no danger, no true rush from the " Oh shit! That dude Fucked me up and almost made me loose my shit" or... Damn I died, eh :: Waits for 10 seconds to pass and presses respawn:: and go on blandly running dungeons again either Solo or if I suck with a group because the big bad monster might whoop my ass. Real gamers Want Risk vs Reward, We want to feel like we achieved something, we busted our asses Risked our shit and knew if we failed, which is not an option, that we goto pay more attention next time, study our opponents or mob (without looking at a Wiki or YOUTUBE video on how to succeed)  we figure it out on our own, we take the risks and the challenge openly, throwing fate into the wind, If we win we get epic items, if we fail we get the challenge of having to reclaim our stuff either before someone else grabs it, or it vanishes. As much as I like the Rush of racing my vehicle. I also like the rush of a game I am playing. I personally don't like games that have no risk, theres no challenge. In PVP I know I just respawn and face a different opponent, in Real PVP I know that I better kill that dude/dudette or just like Life, If I die, well I just lost my shit. Without a challenge you are not truley playing a game, you are just going through the motions of a game. Some people like not having to have a risk, Just like some people like living in a free country without the urge to defend it's freedoms. They know well that theres some one else that will defend it for them and just leech off of society ranting and raving because of the first amendment not truley understanding the loss that occured to grant them that freedom. If everyone just went through the motions think where we would be today, and before anyone goess off about it, No I didn't Serve, not that I did not want to, I just was not accepted due to issues I had, But that does not mean I do not know the risk my friends in service take to give me the ability to play these games, rant and rave and troll the internet with freedom.

     One you do relise you sound like you have an Inferiority complex right? Your saying that since someone else can actually enjoy a game with less or no risk and challage that they are not a gamer? Who talk about being full of it. So what about people who get a rush and enjoyment out of reading a book, or watching a movie, or telling a ghost story hmmm? Everyone is a true gamer they enjoy and play a game for entertainment so get off your high horse and mvoe on, as your the type that had to poke at people to show how you are somehow much better then them. I amm glad you never got take into the army your feeling to show off hwo hardcore and real you are for taking a more challenging style of play, very well might have gotten them killed or worse. Most of the guys and women i know who server or served will not ship or deal with people like you as your a liabilty with the attitude to try and say your better then others. Some of us out there actually prefer to actually enjoy the story, relax wiht some friends, and just game without having to always be hardcore bs. Guess what also real pvp you do know that alot of the bggest rushes for pvp combat come from fps, that have no death penalty short of a time sink called waiting to respawn.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,708Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by rutaq

    Many Players want a game that challenges them,  they want to feel a sense of accomplishment for over coming a challenege and lastly they want a sense of pride and recognition for overcoming a challenge.

     The majoirty of an MMO game is centered around killing stuff so the challenge is built by providing you a Monster to fight and a sets of simple skills that can be combined to a certain order that will provide you a win.   Then it is up to you, the  Player, to understand your skills,  watch the Monster and environment and  adapt / use your skills intelligently.

     The problem with a no death pnealty system and the above scenario is that a Player could avoid the challenge by simply randomly pushing keys as fast as possible without any strategy, thought or intelligence.   All they need to have is a huge amount of free time and  click on the respawn button.  This crude playstyle isn't an accomplishment and doesn't show any ability to overcome the challenge through thought, wisdom or strategy 

    If you're speaking literally about "no death penalty" then sure.  But virtually no games use that (certainly no MMORPGs,) and nobody really wants that.

    What we want -- and what often gets called "no death penalty" even though it isn't -- is the lightest penalty required: a fight reset.

    With a fight reset, the skill check is absolute: until you exhibit enough skill, you will never ever beat the encounter. It won't matter that you instantly respawn nearby with full HP and buffs, because the mob will have also reset.



    • Difficulty measures the skill required to avoid failure.


    • Death Penalty is what happens after you fail.

    Note that all of the skill is required before death penalty kicks in.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • ellobo29ellobo29 warren, MIPosts: 406Member Uncommon

    To OP : No offence.... but u sound like a clumbsy idiot waiting to die. Buckle up wear a helmet and good luck with all ur ventures :D

  • generals3generals3 MehPosts: 3,307Member

    Originally posted by bossalinie

     

    I work hard enough everyday on job. I'm not in to mood to come home a pay company to make me work harder on a game. SOme of us realize that it is just a game and nothing more than a form of entertainment. If an MMORPG doesn't wan't to set us back 30 minutes and allows us to jump right in and enjoy the meat of the game, then I'm all for it.

     

    I'm going to let you know something. Most people who play games for entertainment don't care how hard or easy the game is for other people.

    Yes and everyone is entertained by different things. Some people may not like to be "challenged" by a game, others do. Some like the adrenaline kick for being in a situation where he can lose a lot in a game some won't. Wanting something to be hard and harsh =/= not realizing it's just entertainment. Your entertainment is not my entertainment and claiming those who like different things have some issues grasping the whole entertainment concept is arrogant at best.

    Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
    Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.

  • StonesDKStonesDK SomewherePosts: 1,805Member

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by rutaq

    Many Players want a game that challenges them,  they want to feel a sense of accomplishment for over coming a challenege and lastly they want a sense of pride and recognition for overcoming a challenge.

     The majoirty of an MMO game is centered around killing stuff so the challenge is built by providing you a Monster to fight and a sets of simple skills that can be combined to a certain order that will provide you a win.   Then it is up to you, the  Player, to understand your skills,  watch the Monster and environment and  adapt / use your skills intelligently.

     The problem with a no death pnealty system and the above scenario is that a Player could avoid the challenge by simply randomly pushing keys as fast as possible without any strategy, thought or intelligence.   All they need to have is a huge amount of free time and  click on the respawn button.  This crude playstyle isn't an accomplishment and doesn't show any ability to overcome the challenge through thought, wisdom or strategy 

    If you're speaking literally about "no death penalty" then sure.  But virtually no games use that (certainly no MMORPGs,) and nobody really wants that.

    What we want -- and what often gets called "no death penalty" even though it isn't -- is the lightest penalty required: a fight reset.

    With a fight reset, the skill check is absolute: until you exhibit enough skill, you will never ever beat the encounter. It won't matter that you instantly respawn nearby with full HP and buffs, because the mob will have also reset.



    • Difficulty measures the skill required to avoid failure.


    • Death Penalty is what happens after you fail.

    Note that all of the skill is required before death penalty kicks in.

    The death penalty that happens after you fail has a psychological effect on the player affecting the upcoming battle. Should I or shouldn't I?, Is it worth it?. It's also a motivational factor of building a sound strategy before the battle, instead of just rushing in and see what happens rinse repeat. The penalty doesn't give you any enjoyment but the threat of it does.

    Also on the matter of the reset. If there's no penalty after a loss. A player can simply just keep rushing in, hoping to get some lucky critical hits or procs from his weapons, even hoping the attacks miss or is resisted just enough to come out on top. While watching TV.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common

    Originally posted by Starpower

    Originally posted by Axehilt


    Originally posted by rutaq

    Many Players want a game that challenges them,  they want to feel a sense of accomplishment for over coming a challenege and lastly they want a sense of pride and recognition for overcoming a challenge.

     The majoirty of an MMO game is centered around killing stuff so the challenge is built by providing you a Monster to fight and a sets of simple skills that can be combined to a certain order that will provide you a win.   Then it is up to you, the  Player, to understand your skills,  watch the Monster and environment and  adapt / use your skills intelligently.

     The problem with a no death pnealty system and the above scenario is that a Player could avoid the challenge by simply randomly pushing keys as fast as possible without any strategy, thought or intelligence.   All they need to have is a huge amount of free time and  click on the respawn button.  This crude playstyle isn't an accomplishment and doesn't show any ability to overcome the challenge through thought, wisdom or strategy 

    If you're speaking literally about "no death penalty" then sure.  But virtually no games use that (certainly no MMORPGs,) and nobody really wants that.

    What we want -- and what often gets called "no death penalty" even though it isn't -- is the lightest penalty required: a fight reset.

    With a fight reset, the skill check is absolute: until you exhibit enough skill, you will never ever beat the encounter. It won't matter that you instantly respawn nearby with full HP and buffs, because the mob will have also reset.



    • Difficulty measures the skill required to avoid failure.


    • Death Penalty is what happens after you fail.

    Note that all of the skill is required before death penalty kicks in.

    The death penalty that happens after you fail has a psychological effect on the player affecting the upcoming battle. Should I or shouldn't I?, Is it worth it?. It's also a motivational factor of building a sound strategy before the battle, instead of just rushing in and see what happens rinse repeat. The penalty doesn't give you any enjoyment but the threat of it does.

    Also on the matter of the reset. If there's no penalty after a loss. A player can simply just keep rushing in, hoping to get some lucky critical hits or procs from his weapons, even hoping the attacks miss or is resisted just enough to come out on top. While watching TV.

    Thing is, nobody "rushes right in". Nobody wants to waste their time by losing again, again and again. People simply don't do that. Reset is good enough death penalty to want to avoid. You waste your time if you wipe. You don't get any shinies if you wipe.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • PKJackCrowPKJackCrow Ginowan cityPosts: 231Member

    Not sure  what games you been playing but in WoW alone people fight the same bosses over and over again, in PvP the respawn and zerg the same goals and checkpoints all the frigging time, with no stragety other than numbers and over whelm.

  • StonesDKStonesDK SomewherePosts: 1,805Member

    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Originally posted by Starpower


    Originally posted by Axehilt


    Originally posted by rutaq

    Many Players want a game that challenges them,  they want to feel a sense of accomplishment for over coming a challenege and lastly they want a sense of pride and recognition for overcoming a challenge.

     The majoirty of an MMO game is centered around killing stuff so the challenge is built by providing you a Monster to fight and a sets of simple skills that can be combined to a certain order that will provide you a win.   Then it is up to you, the  Player, to understand your skills,  watch the Monster and environment and  adapt / use your skills intelligently.

     The problem with a no death pnealty system and the above scenario is that a Player could avoid the challenge by simply randomly pushing keys as fast as possible without any strategy, thought or intelligence.   All they need to have is a huge amount of free time and  click on the respawn button.  This crude playstyle isn't an accomplishment and doesn't show any ability to overcome the challenge through thought, wisdom or strategy 

    If you're speaking literally about "no death penalty" then sure.  But virtually no games use that (certainly no MMORPGs,) and nobody really wants that.

    What we want -- and what often gets called "no death penalty" even though it isn't -- is the lightest penalty required: a fight reset.

    With a fight reset, the skill check is absolute: until you exhibit enough skill, you will never ever beat the encounter. It won't matter that you instantly respawn nearby with full HP and buffs, because the mob will have also reset.



    • Difficulty measures the skill required to avoid failure.


    • Death Penalty is what happens after you fail.

    Note that all of the skill is required before death penalty kicks in.

    The death penalty that happens after you fail has a psychological effect on the player affecting the upcoming battle. Should I or shouldn't I?, Is it worth it?. It's also a motivational factor of building a sound strategy before the battle, instead of just rushing in and see what happens rinse repeat. The penalty doesn't give you any enjoyment but the threat of it does.

    Also on the matter of the reset. If there's no penalty after a loss. A player can simply just keep rushing in, hoping to get some lucky critical hits or procs from his weapons, even hoping the attacks miss or is resisted just enough to come out on top. While watching TV.

    Thing is, nobody "rushes right in". Nobody wants to waste their time by losing again, again and again. People simply don't do that. Reset is good enough death penalty to want to avoid. You waste your time if you wipe. You don't get any shinies if you wipe.

    That's exactly what people do and have been doing since WoW came out and the countless clones. Risk vs reward no longer exists. There's only reward

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common

    Originally posted by PKJackCrow

    Not sure  what games you been playing but in WoW alone people fight the same bosses over and over again, in PvP the respawn and zerg the same goals and checkpoints all the frigging time, with no stragety other than numbers and over whelm.

    Zerging will happen in any game when it is not restriced even with HDP. And if some people do run and rush bosses again and again, it doesn't ruin your game now does it?

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • PKJackCrowPKJackCrow Ginowan cityPosts: 231Member

    That's your answer, "it doesn't ruin your game?" in a way it does. When people feel they can zerg content, then they don't pay attention cuz they feel all content can just be zerged. I'll played with unskilled players as much as i played with skilled players and i have a feeling that most of the better players i played with are players who know the value of keeping themselves alive over those who just try to headbutt the situation.

  • WSIMikeWSIMike Catskill, NYPosts: 5,564Member

    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Originally posted by Starpower


    Originally posted by Axehilt


    Originally posted by rutaq

    Many Players want a game that challenges them,  they want to feel a sense of accomplishment for over coming a challenege and lastly they want a sense of pride and recognition for overcoming a challenge.

     The majoirty of an MMO game is centered around killing stuff so the challenge is built by providing you a Monster to fight and a sets of simple skills that can be combined to a certain order that will provide you a win.   Then it is up to you, the  Player, to understand your skills,  watch the Monster and environment and  adapt / use your skills intelligently.

     The problem with a no death pnealty system and the above scenario is that a Player could avoid the challenge by simply randomly pushing keys as fast as possible without any strategy, thought or intelligence.   All they need to have is a huge amount of free time and  click on the respawn button.  This crude playstyle isn't an accomplishment and doesn't show any ability to overcome the challenge through thought, wisdom or strategy 

    If you're speaking literally about "no death penalty" then sure.  But virtually no games use that (certainly no MMORPGs,) and nobody really wants that.

    What we want -- and what often gets called "no death penalty" even though it isn't -- is the lightest penalty required: a fight reset.

    With a fight reset, the skill check is absolute: until you exhibit enough skill, you will never ever beat the encounter. It won't matter that you instantly respawn nearby with full HP and buffs, because the mob will have also reset.



    • Difficulty measures the skill required to avoid failure.


    • Death Penalty is what happens after you fail.

    Note that all of the skill is required before death penalty kicks in.

    The death penalty that happens after you fail has a psychological effect on the player affecting the upcoming battle. Should I or shouldn't I?, Is it worth it?. It's also a motivational factor of building a sound strategy before the battle, instead of just rushing in and see what happens rinse repeat. The penalty doesn't give you any enjoyment but the threat of it does.

    Also on the matter of the reset. If there's no penalty after a loss. A player can simply just keep rushing in, hoping to get some lucky critical hits or procs from his weapons, even hoping the attacks miss or is resisted just enough to come out on top. While watching TV.

    Thing is, nobody "rushes right in". Nobody wants to waste their time by losing again, again and again. People simply don't do that. Reset is good enough death penalty to want to avoid. You waste your time if you wipe. You don't get any shinies if you wipe.

    In a game with very light penalties for failure?

    Ohhhhhhhhhh yes they do. They must definitely do.

    That's been one of my #1 annoyances about grouping up with people in newer MMOs since WoW came out and rendered penalties as little more than a slap on the wrist. They just charge into everything, don't stop to assess the situation, work out the best way to deal with it, etc. They see a crowd of enemies and just race right on in to start taking them out.

    Hell, my own sister is one of those people and it drives me nuts when she does it, to the point that I can't group with her either. She gets us killed repeatedly. When I asked her why she keeps doing that, she says, and I quote: "It's more fun that way, and it's not like it's a big deal if you die. So what? They all die eventually". She didn't say that to bash the game. She said that sincerely... death is nothing to worry about, so what's the point in being careful/strategic? It's more fun to rush in and let the chaos ensue...

    And she's only one person. I've heard the same remarks made by people in myriad other groups, across myriad other games... including FFXIV during a levequest. People insisted on taking leves at the toughest difficulty figuring we would just keep rushing in and wearing them down... winning through attrition and getting a superior reward for it. Regarding death penalty,t hey said the same thing, "Death doesn't really mean anything in this game, so it's not a big deal".

    I could repeat similar accounts over and over and over again... Going as far as people doing it in PUGs found in WoW's dungeon finder. They had the same attitude. "So what if we die? There's no time limit and death isn't a big deal".

    The only scenario where I don't see that attitude nearly as much (and not surprisingly) is raids. During raids, everyone is expected to be on spot. Those who repeatedly screw up, rush in or ignore tactics tend to be expelled from the group. And why is that? Why the sudden attention to strategy and not being careless for raids, when many couldn't care less in any other situation? Because there's something valuable at stake; something meaningful they lose if they fail.

    So what are they losing?

    1. Time. Raids are not like your typical 10 minute quests that are completed in minutes and that you can just keep rushing through 'til it's done. Raids can take an hour or more - not including prep time.

    2. Raids can be expensive to prepare for, by the time everyone gets the items they need. They also have to pay for repairs which can get expensive; another deterrent from dying too much.

    3. Superior loot. In cases where some of the best gear drops off raid bosses, failing means losing out on the chance to get the item(s) they were after. This applies to the "shinies" you refer to.

    So not only are they losing the time spent, they're forfeiting the chance at getting a good reward, and it can be a lot of money wasted if the group is wiping due to players being careless.

    The same principle applies to harsher death penalties, such as xp loss or perhaps gear loss. If you lose xp, that's time you'll have to spend to get it back, which - if you're someone who dies a lot - can add up quickly. So, the "concern" over losing xp and, thus, losing time if you die tends to be a motivator for people to be as cautious as possible, to use strategy and to not be careless, foolishly charging into situations without properly preparing for them.

    That's the common ground. When there's something meaningful to the player at stake, they tend to be much more careful. When the risks are negligible (few minutes of sickness, some gear damage, etc), they are far less careful.

    The less you die, the less xp you lose, the less time is lost. That's the motivation for not failing before hand.

    There's the other half of it... Coming out the other side of a tough encounter, perhaps having some close calls but without dying makes the completion of it that much more satisfying and makes the reward that much more worthwhile.

    If there's a "fear of dying" (e.g. loss of xp, loss of gear, etc) that is meaningful to people, they're far less likely to be careless or reckless. I've seen this play out in MMO after MMO after MMO. In every case, when there's a harsher death penalty at play, players tend to be more strategic, more cautious, less reckless, etc. In every case, when there's a very light death penalty (gear damage, a few minutes of sickness, etc) players tend to be very careless, reckless and prefer zerging into everything over being strategic about it. Every single time.

    "If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road,
    and the cash shop selling asphalt..."
    - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops

    image

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common

    Originally posted by WSIMike

    Originally posted by Quirhid

     

    In a game with very light penalties for failure?

    Ohhhhhhhhhh yes they do. They must definitely do.

    That's been one of my #1 annoyances about grouping up with people in newer MMOs since WoW came out and rendered penalties as little more than a slap on the wrist. They just charge into everything, don't stop to assess the situation, work out the best way to deal with it, etc. They see a crowd of enemies and just race right on in to start taking them out.

    Hell, my own sister is one of those people and it drives me nuts when she does it, to the point that I can't group with her either. She gets us killed repeatedly. When I asked her why she keeps doing that, she says, and I quote: "It's more fun that way, and it's not like it's a big deal if you die. So what? They all die eventually". She didn't say that to bash the game. She said that sincerely... death is nothing to worry about, so what's the point in being careful/strategic? It's more fun to rush in and let the chaos ensue...

    And she's only one person. I've heard the same remarks made by people in myriad other groups, across myriad other games... including FFXIV during a levequest. People insisted on taking leves at the toughest difficulty figuring we would just keep rushing in and wearing them down... winning through attrition and getting a superior reward for it. Regarding death penalty,t hey said the same thing, "Death doesn't really mean anything in this game, so it's not a big deal".

    I could repeat similar accounts over and over and over again... Going as far as people doing it in PUGs found in WoW's dungeon finder. They had the same attitude. "So what if we die? There's no time limit and death isn't a big deal".

    The only scenario where I don't see that attitude nearly as much (and not surprisingly) is raids. During raids, everyone is expected to be on spot. Those who repeatedly screw up, rush in or ignore tactics tend to be expelled from the group. And why is that? Why the sudden attention to strategy and not being careless for raids, when many couldn't care less in any other situation? Because there's something valuable at stake; something meaningful they lose if they fail.

    So what are they losing?

    1. Time. Raids are not like your typical 10 minute quests that are completed in minutes and that you can just keep rushing through 'til it's done. Raids can take an hour or more - not including prep time.

    2. Raids can be expensive to prepare for, by the time everyone gets the items they need. They also have to pay for repairs which can get expensive; another deterrent from dying too much.

    3. Superior loot. In cases where some of the best gear drops off raid bosses, failing means losing out on the chance to get the item(s) they were after. This applies to the "shinies" you refer to.

    So not only are they losing the time spent, they're forfeiting the chance at getting a good reward, and it can be a lot of money wasted if the group is wiping due to players being careless.

    The same principle applies to harsher death penalties, such as xp loss or perhaps gear loss. If you lose xp, that's time you'll have to spend to get it back, which - if you're someone who dies a lot - can add up quickly. So, the "concern" over losing xp and, thus, losing time if you die tends to be a motivator for people to be as cautious as possible, to use strategy and to not be careless, foolishly charging into situations without properly preparing for them.

    That's the common ground. When there's something meaningful to the player at stake, they tend to be much more careful. When the risks are negligible (few minutes of sickness, some gear damage, etc), they are far less careful.

    The less you die, the less xp you lose, the less time is lost. That's the motivation for not failing before hand.

    There's the other half of it... Coming out the other side of a tough encounter, perhaps having some close calls but without dying makes the completion of it that much more satisfying and makes the reward that much more worthwhile.

    If there's a "fear of dying" (e.g. loss of xp, loss of gear, etc) that is meaningful to people, they're far less likely to be careless or reckless. I've seen this play out in MMO after MMO after MMO. In every case, when there's a harsher death penalty at play, players tend to be more strategic, more cautious, less reckless, etc. In every case, when there's a very light death penalty (gear damage, a few minutes of sickness, etc) players tend to be very careless, reckless and prefer zerging into everything over being strategic about it. Every single time.

    Do you know why your sister rushes in? Because she may feel that you overstrategize something that is not ultimately that hard. It really isn't. PvE never is. Some raids are solved like puzzles but PvE in general does not offer the same level of challenge PvP does.

    PvE in a traditional strict trinity game goes like this:



    1. lure one mob


    2. tank the one mob


    3. kill it


    4. healers heal


    5. wait for mana/cooldowns


    6. rinse and repeat

    Or with multiple mobs:



    1. lure as few mobs as possible


    2. try to keep aggro on all of the mobs OR root, scare, charm, etc. additional mobs


    3. kill one mob at a time OR gather them all in the same location to use AOE


    4. healers heal


    5. wait for mana/cooldowns


    6. rinse and repeat


    This is mindnumbingly boring, and no amount of death penalty makes it exciting. Infact anything that breaks that formula is exciting. For example, when tank loses aggro, additional mobs show up or something else unexpected happens - maybe your sister happens (no offense ofcourse).


     


    And when we talk about HDP in PvP... well... It absolutely kills it. There practically is no PvP. People are too afraid to challenge themselves. Huge majority will not engage unless they are sure they can win. They also seek refuge in numbers, so zerging is actually common unless restricted. The whole thing becomes a race to gank one another - very little PvP.


     


    To get any PvP in a game like this, you'd have to rely on the few people that have the "fuck it all"-attitude. That they just don't care even if the DP is harsh. -Or they are finally bored enough not to care.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • RoccprofitRoccprofit SMITHVILLE, TXPosts: 98Member

     Why do you go do these things on your bike ? I assume because you enjoy them, the thrill of getting through it in one peice or of doing something others have not done. If you put in hours and hours of practice learning and perfecting your techniqe do you not feel happy that you did something most others are not capable of ? would it not suck if you spent days, weeks hours learning something and  went through all the pain and hardship to get there and then everyone else was able to do it in minutes ?

       Granted the above would require that the powers that be, god if you buy that story, would have to bestow this power on everyone but, your the one that wanted to make a real vs video game compairison.

      Even if you say you would not the reality is that you would feel ripped off if you did all that work and suddenly everyone else could accomplish the same task with out any of the danger or potential penalty that you had. That is how it is for gamers. You work hard to get something and have to be good at what you do to get there and the devs, for all purpose in this case the god's of the game, change everything so that 100's if not millions can do the same thing with a fraction of the effort or no effort at all.

     Games are no fun without the challenge and sadly the wave of people that think that they have "beat" a game by using a god code is growing at insane speed. these people are bad players, they suck so they need a code to win Or they need the game to be really simple so there small minds can grasp it.

     I recently bought Empire Earth 3 because I recall from other Empire Earth games having massive armies face off against massive armies, well in Empire Earth 3 I found after the first wave of pretty small troops I can then just roll through and destroy all the enemys structures and win with no effort. This is boring and I am glad I did not buy it new. I will not play it again because there is no point I know I am going to win there is no risk what so ever that I will lose not even once.

     No risk equals boring game play period.

    image

  • FabioCapelaFabioCapela FrancaPosts: 23Member



    In a game with very light penalties for failure?
    Ohhhhhhhhhh yes they do. They must definitely do.
    That's been one of my #1 annoyances about grouping up with people in newer MMOs since WoW came out and rendered penalties as little more than a slap on the wrist. They just charge into everything, don't stop to assess the situation, work out the best way to deal with it, etc. They see a crowd of enemies and just race right on in to start taking them out.
    Hell, my own sister is one of those people and it drives me nuts when she does it, to the point that I can't group with her either. She gets us killed repeatedly. When I asked her why she keeps doing that, she says, and I quote: "It's more fun that way, and it's not like it's a big deal if you die. So what? They all die eventually". She didn't say that to bash the game. She said that sincerely... death is nothing to worry about, so what's the point in being careful/strategic? It's more fun to rush in and let the chaos ensue...

    Did you ever consider that perhaps those players prefer to not have to worry?

    I've been playing video games for almost three decades. I've owned a video game of the current generation since the Atari, and a game-capable computer since the 286. I've experienced more games than I care to remember, so I guess I know what I want.

    And I definitely don't want harsh death penalties.

    Now, I understand that some players want meaningful death penalties. I see no problem in this - as long as they don't attempt to force me into accepting those penalties. I vote with my wallet - if I dislike the game, which includes not liking it's penalty for losing, I won't purchase, or in the case of MMOs I will unsubscribe.

    In the end, there is no universally right way to play. Each player has his own "right" way, which is the way he can have fun. And, apparently, for most players out there their own "right" way to play does not involve death penalties - so much that even WoW is introducing a new easy mode for raids, one that, besides being significantly easier than normal mode, does not lock players out of fighting bosses - if they pick a failed group that downs half the bosses and then gets stuck, they will be able to just hop into the next group, from the start, and attempt again.

    Little curious thing. Do you know what franchise has the best selling non-bundled games in the action, racing, fighting, and sports categories (and actually places well in the RPG category)? Mario. And somehow I don't think it's because of his sexy mustache.

    The thing all best-selling Mario games have in common is being extremely casual friendly, to the point not only is the penalty for losing almost non-existent - lives in most Mario games are almost a non-issue, "losing" in Smash Bros just means you respawn in the same round, etc - sometimes it's outright reversed, as in Mario Kart games, where the best players get crummy power ups and the last players get the really powerful and fun power ups.

    (On the other hand, most Mario games have extremely challenging content for the best players. Try getting a triple star on a mirror cup in Mario Kart, or all the dragon coins in a secret New Super Mario Wii level. It's a very high challenge level with low to no penalty for failing, and most players seem to like it.)

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