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SWTOR even simpler then WoW

ethionethion Clearwater, FlPosts: 2,878Member Uncommon

There are a lot of good things about SWTOR but one of the things that I think is really dumb is they effectively removed stats from the game...  So now you basically just want equipment with the best upgrades or the best equipment.  Other then making sure it if for your archtype the stats are meaningless..

For each archtype there are only two stats that matter.  You endurance which gives you hitpoints and your archtype stat which gives you a boatload of upgrades.  There are other stats but they pretty much are meant for other archtypes and give you only a couple of enhancements that are redundant to your primary stat.

So as a jedi warrior you just want str/end.  Most items designed for your class will have str/end.  Sometimes the ratio is a bit different but basically the higher the quality or level the more stats...

I personally think this is a negative what do you guys think?  Like it or think it over simplifies the whole quest for gear.  Or is it similar to other games just made totally obvious?

---
Ethion

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Comments

  • skeaserskeaser Wichita Falls, TXPosts: 3,847Member Uncommon

    I'm fine with it. I think it should help allow everyone to experience the group content without the arsepain of needing a certain gearscore. I'd rather you just need be good at your class than having to have max enchanted master crafted greaves of pwnsauce.

  • monothmonoth Palm Springs, CAPosts: 551Member

    Thats only on low level gear... as you level up other stats play a part for everyone like Power, Tech and Presence and there's also a special stat for just PvE and one for PvP don't remember their names... Anyways it's not as simple as your implying..

    Only like 40% (Guessing) of the gear you can get in the game is moddable everything else has fixed stats on it....  The gear recipes you buy from your NPC trainer have no mod slots in them, but dropped schematics from flashpoints, operations and having your companions do missions like underground and diplomacy do have mod slots so there will be craftable armor with mod slots in them.

     

  • Biggus99Biggus99 Mesa, AZPosts: 916Member

    Eh, it's probably a bit over-simplified to be sure, but as long as there is a lot of different gear available, I can live with it.

  • GMan3GMan3 Ewa Beach, HIPosts: 2,127Member

        Considering that everything about this game, especially things like stats, are still in flux while beta testing . . . I do not have a problem with this at all.  The problem is, we have NO idea how exactly the stats will affect your character.  That takes months of testing with a stable system before you can make anything close to accurate appraisals.  So far, nobody has had that since even the smallest of changes to stats can seriously change teh computations.

        So for now I have no problems and will simply have to sit back and see what happens.

    "If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"

  • ZenjinxZenjinx St. John's, NFPosts: 328Member

    I find the title of this post very misleading. It reads as an invitation for a flamewar.

    Simplicity is in the eye of the beholder. You might consider something complex, while i may see it as easy, and vice-versa.

    I don't think you can reduce a games overall complexity to a few cherry picked features.

  • poefuepoefue Glen Burnie, MDPosts: 226Member
    Originally posted by skeaser

    max enchanted master crafted greaves of pwnsauce.

     

    Aww, so TOR does not have max enchanted master crafted greaves of pwnsauce?
  • Wharg0ulWharg0ul Colorado Springs, COPosts: 4,183Member

    It's actually much more complex than that.

    And let's not forget that stats like presence, while not directly having an impact on your damage or defense, have a major impact on your gameplay.

    For example....with my Assassin, I like to use Khem Val to tank, while I DPS from behind the mob. Khem's effectiveness will be buffed by my presence stat. Of course, if I choose to gear toward presence, I'm losing points somewhere else.

    And of coruse, with the moddable gear, and the various rarities of the gear and mods, it is possible to tailor your gear and it's benefits to exactly fit your play style....and look good in the process.

     

     

    [Mod Edit]

    image

  • ZenjinxZenjinx St. John's, NFPosts: 328Member

    Originally posted by poefue

    Originally posted by skeaser

    max enchanted master crafted greaves of pwnsauce.

     

    Aww, so TOR does not have max enchanted master crafted greaves of pwnsauce?

    Just a hearty helping of force pudding, and light sabre candy treats.

  • Dante1443Dante1443 San Diego, CAPosts: 23Member

    I'm not too upset over this.  On one hand being able to choose your gear based on stats does bring another level to the game but honestly it can be a real hassle sometimes.  Instead of enjoying the game play and such, you pretty much have to put a lot of effort into finding the right gear and find how they work with your class/species traits.

  • Wharg0ulWharg0ul Colorado Springs, COPosts: 4,183Member

    Originally posted by Dante1443

    I'm not too upset over this.  On one hand being able to choose your gear based on stats does bring another level to the game but honestly it can be a real hassle sometimes.  Instead of enjoying the game play and such, you pretty much have to put a lot of effort into finding the right gear and find how they work with your class/species traits.

    Not really. There are vendors all over the place that sell statted gear, and still more that sell mods that affect stats.

    On top of that, you have the crafted gear and mods, the loot drops....etc.

    It is really NO problem at all to kit yourself out exactly as you want.

    image

  • WarjinWarjin Harrisburg, PAPosts: 1,215Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by ethion

    There are a lot of good things about SWTOR but one of the things that I think is really dumb is they effectively removed stats from the game...  So now you basically just want equipment with the best upgrades or the best equipment.  Other then making sure it if for your archtype the stats are meaningless..

    For each archtype there are only two stats that matter.  You endurance which gives you hitpoints and your archtype stat which gives you a boatload of upgrades.  There are other stats but they pretty much are meant for other archtypes and give you only a couple of enhancements that are redundant to your primary stat.

    So as a jedi warrior you just want str/end.  Most items designed for your class will have str/end.  Sometimes the ratio is a bit different but basically the higher the quality or level the more stats...

    I personally think this is a negative what do you guys think?  Like it or think it over simplifies the whole quest for gear.  Or is it similar to other games just made totally obvious?

    Sw:tor seems to be taking this game in a different direction then WoW when it comes to progression, Sw:tor is a bit more simplified when It comes to stat progresstion but that not really a bad thing. The stat coefficients are different for every game meaning.

    Below is a copy and paste involving Sw:tor stats and how they effect your characters.

    * (S) Strength 

    * (A) Agility 

    * (E) Endurance 

    * (C) Cunning 

    * (W) Willpower 

    * (P) Presence 





    Base Stats/Leveling 



    Level 1 

    S - 48 

    A - 10 

    E - 48 

    C - 10 

    W - 54 

    P - 48 



    Level 2 

    S - 52 

    A - 11 

    E - 52 

    C - 11 

    W - 58 

    P - 52 



    Level 3 

    S - 55 

    A - 12 

    E - 55 

    C - 12 

    W - 62 

    P - 55 



    Level 4 

    S - 59 

    A - 13 

    E - 59 

    C - 13 

    W - 66 

    P - 59 



    Here is what we can see. Starting stats appear as follows: 

    Main stat: 54 

    Primary stats: 48 

    Secondary: 10 



    Each level, main and primary go up by 4, secondary goes up by 1. It is possible that their is a rotation we can see this by looking at the increase in primary stats. So they go up by 4, then they go up by 4, then they go up by 3, and rotate like that. Unfortunately everything after 4 level had too many factors, such as stat bonuses from gear and buffs, that I couldn't project it out further with the notes I had. With the simplicity of their design though I expect it was a mis-entry in coding and we will see it go +4/+1 respectively. 



    Also as far as base modifiers, it appears you start with the following: 

    Bonus damage: 0 

    Accuracy: 90 (don't know what this affects) 

    Crit %: 10% 

    Dmg reduction: 0 

    Def chance: 10 (don't know what this affects) 

    Glance: 0 

    Absorb: 0 (I assume both of these are affected by hardiness) 



    Then you take the stat modifiers and add them to the base. Lets get into stat modifiers then. 



    Stat Modifiers 



    You will need to do a little math beyond what I give you here, so I will show you exactly how it works. 



    Strength: - Affects bonus melee damage and bonus melee crit. 

    Every 10 points = +1 bonus damage 

    Every 40.1 points = +1% crit 



    ex: 77 Strength 

    77 / 10 = 7.7 bonus damage 

    77 / 40.1 = 1.92% bonus crit 



    Agility: - Affects bonus ranged damage and bonus ranged crit. 

    Formula the same as Strength 



    Endurance: - Affects bonus health and health regeneration. 

    Every 1 point = 10 health 

    Every 5 points = 1% regen 



    ex: 83 Endurance 

    83*10 = 830 bonus health 

    83 / 5 = 16.6% regen 



    Cunning: - Affects bonus tech damage and bonus tech crit. 

    Formula the same as Strength 



    Willpower: - Affects bonus force damage and bonus force crit. 

    Formula the same as Strength 



    Presence: - Affects bonus healing, extra companion health and extra companion damage. 

    Every 5 points = +1 bonus healing 

    Every 1 point = +2 bonus companion health 

    Every 20 points = +1% companion damage 



    ex: 75 Presence 

    75 / 5 = +15 bonus healing 

    75 * 2 = +150 companion health 

    75 / 20 = +3.75% companion damage 



    Armor: - Affects Kinetic and Energy damage reduction. 

    Every 20.8 points = 1% reduction 



    ex: 79 Armor 

    79 / 20.8 = 3.8% reduction 

  • alexminoalexmino davenport, IAPosts: 132Member

    Didn't they say in the next expansion they are going from a talent system where there are ideal specs for pvp/pve too no choice on your spec at all?

    Seems pretty simple.

  • monothmonoth Palm Springs, CAPosts: 551Member

    Originally posted by alexmino

    Didn't they say in the next expansion they are going from a talent system where there are ideal specs for pvp/pve too no choice on your spec at all?

    Seems pretty simple.

    First time i've heard that.... Bioware has made no comment in regards to future expansions so it sounds like your just repeating a false rumor.

  • Bama1267Bama1267 Waterloo, NYPosts: 1,847Member

    Picking gear has never been hard unless a player had no idea what they were doing. I guess In a way it simplifies it for those players so they have little way to screw it up.

  • dubyahitedubyahite Lincoln, NEPosts: 2,483Member
    Haven't seen any mention of alacrity. Speeds up spell casting.

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  • WarjinWarjin Harrisburg, PAPosts: 1,215Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by dubyahite

    Haven't seen any mention of alacrity. Speeds up spell casting.

    Armor pen and haste are just talent bonuses unlike WoW, my guess is they don't want players to focus on them stats due to the difficulty of balancing them, WoW became to gimicky because players would overload on those stats in the past forcing them to remove armor pen all together, even as of now players are missusing haste, Sw:tor limits you on those stats via talent so you can't abuse it.

  • SuperXero89SuperXero89 Amory, MSPosts: 2,544Member Uncommon

    Simplicity is good.  In these themepark games, it seems that there's always a clear and definate "best" in terms of the stats you need, so there's little reason to fog up the path between a and b behind complex math and by forcing me to visit forums for hours rather than spend time playing the game.

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel houston, TXPosts: 7,276Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Warjin

    Originally posted by dubyahite

    Haven't seen any mention of alacrity. Speeds up spell casting.

    Armor pen and haste are just talent bonuses unlike WoW, my guess is they don't want players to focus on them stats due to the difficulty of balancing them, WoW became to gimicky because players would overload on those stats in the past forcing them to remove armor pen all together, even as of now players are missusing haste, Sw:tor limits you on those stats via talent so you can't abuse it.

    You can spec characters for alacrity,  but it only really helps caster classes, most notably the sage and inquisitor.  Having a high alacrity is tough because theres no specific alacrity gear,  its always a minor stat, and usually takes the place of a 3rd or 4th stat instead of, say,  crit chance.  I would spec it on my consular but found it hard to find good gear... with enough of it you do see a difference.

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  • ethionethion Clearwater, FlPosts: 2,878Member Uncommon

    ok here are some specifics

    General stats are the following

    str - melee damage bonus, melee crit chance

    pre - companion health, companion damage bonus, companion healing bonus

    aim - ranged damage bonus, ranged crit

    cunning - tech damage bonus, tech crit

    end - max health, health regen

    will - force damage bonus, force crit

    exp - pvp efficiency

    For a smuggler archtype

    The primary stat is cunning, so instead of above cunning gives the following

    range damage bonus, range crit, tech damage bonus, tech crit, healing power

    For my companion who is ranged tank type kinda like a trouper

    His primary stat is aim which gives

    ranged damage bonus, range crit, tech damage bonus, tech crit

    So this carries across to the two force using classes similarly.

    So for whatever archtype you are your primary stat gives the bonuses it would normally do plus every other bonus that matters to your class.

    So lets look at equipment

    Again for the smuggler what you find is that there is really only one type of equipment that makes sense for you to use and in fact given that you want medium armor it is even more obvious.  You will find equipment that is cunning/end or equipment that is will/end in medium.  Clearly thats no choice at all.

    So looking at the equipment in cunning/end you will see that you basically for any particular level of equipment there are at most two sets of stats.  Cunning/End or End/Cunning.  So you can choose to build ability skills by favoring cunning or you can favor end and build hp.  

    Now lets look at mods.  Mods are even worse since they only come in one ratio of stats for a set level.  You have 4 basic types to pick from.

    Might - str/end

    reflex - aim/end

    resolve - will/end

    skill - cun/end

    All of them will be the same ratios.  

    armoring mods tend to give you too choices like general equipment cun/end or end/cun

    general mods tend to give you more base skill and little end

    enhancements give end

    Same concepts for weapons.

    Higher level mods and equipment are better

    Yes higher level gear starts adding other stats to equipment and mods.  Things like tech power, defense ratings, surge ratings, accuracy rating, critical ratings.  Mods and enhancements start to have some of these bonus stats also.

    However I don't see a lot of variation other then it has one of the listed abilities or not.  The values look pretty much to be a function of the gear and are in addition to the stats already listed.  But you do need to trade off defence, accuracy, critical, and surge.  I'm not even sure what surge is...

    I'd like to see equipment and mods with more variety and I'd prefer that they didn't have this primary superstat rather just leave the stats as defined and I pick stats to emphasis my characters preferences.

     

     

    ---
    Ethion

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,064Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by skeaser

    I'm fine with it. I think it should help allow everyone to experience the group content without the arsepain of needing a certain gearscore. I'd rather you just need be good at your class than having to have max enchanted master crafted greaves of pwnsauce.

    Seems like GW2 will be your  kind of game..

     

    I personally think that gear will be of much more importance in SWTOR then the OP predicts...

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  • Biggus99Biggus99 Mesa, AZPosts: 916Member

    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    Originally posted by skeaser

    I'm fine with it. I think it should help allow everyone to experience the group content without the arsepain of needing a certain gearscore. I'd rather you just need be good at your class than having to have max enchanted master crafted greaves of pwnsauce.

    Seems like GW2 will be your  kind of game..

     

    I personally think that gear will be of much more importance in SWTOR then the OP predicts...

    Oh yeah, no doubt.  I think any time you have and endgame that is going to have raiding as a main facet, gear is going to be important.  That's a turn-off for some gamers, which is understandable.  I'm okay with that type of endgame as long as it's not the ONLY thing to do.  

  • FaelsunFaelsun Brandon, MSPosts: 492Member

    Originally posted by SuperXero89

    Simplicity is good.  In these themepark games, it seems that there's always a clear and definate "best" in terms of the stats you need, so there's little reason to fog up the path between a and b behind complex math and by forcing me to visit forums for hours rather than spend time playing the game.

    Thats only true IF you are the type of person who can't do a talent spec or skill set on your own in the first place and HAVE to get other people to do the work for you. It doesn't mean THEY didn't enjoy doing it, it just means you can't understand it or don't find enjoyment in theorycraft, which other I assure you others do. Using your logic people might as well be playing a single player adventure game. Seriously Diablo 2 would have been too much trouble for you, it gasp had a skill tree. I think this lazyness is part of the problem in games to day, its like catering to welfare babies using ADD medication, no attention span and no willingness to put ANY time in the game that takes away from Valuable trade chat time.

    TRUTH

  • dubyahitedubyahite Lincoln, NEPosts: 2,483Member

    Originally posted by Faelsun

    Originally posted by SuperXero89

    Simplicity is good.  In these themepark games, it seems that there's always a clear and definate "best" in terms of the stats you need, so there's little reason to fog up the path between a and b behind complex math and by forcing me to visit forums for hours rather than spend time playing the game.

    Thats only true IF you are the type of person who can't do a talent spec or skill set on your own in the first place and HAVE to get other people to do the work for you. It doesn't mean THEY didn't enjoy doing it, it just means you can't understand it or don't find enjoyment in theorycraft, which other I assure you others do. Using your logic people might as well be playing a single player adventure game. Seriously Diablo 2 would have been too much trouble for you, it gasp had a skill tree. I think this lazyness is part of the problem in games to day, its like catering to welfare babies using ADD medication, no attention span and no willingness to put ANY time in the game that takes away from Valuable trade chat time.

    TRUTH

    LOL at calling Bioware lazy developers. You have no idea. I've seen their development process for the last six months and they absolutely rock.  They have crafted this game with a very fine attention to detail and they work very fast.  So funny.

     

    Also...dear god can we please stop with the single player game nonsense. This game is so far from a single player game. My head will explode if i keep hearing this. Do you want the guild of my exploding head on your hands?

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  • ethionethion Clearwater, FlPosts: 2,878Member Uncommon

    Anyone really interested in this game check out the weekend beta test.  You will see that the stats are basically meaningless.  They have simplified equipment to class based, level, and quality.  Nothing else really matters.

    ---
    Ethion

  • ethionethion Clearwater, FlPosts: 2,878Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Warjin

    Originally posted by ethion

    There are a lot of good things about SWTOR but one of the things that I think is really dumb is they effectively removed stats from the game...  So now you basically just want equipment with the best upgrades or the best equipment.  Other then making sure it if for your archtype the stats are meaningless..

    For each archtype there are only two stats that matter.  You endurance which gives you hitpoints and your archtype stat which gives you a boatload of upgrades.  There are other stats but they pretty much are meant for other archtypes and give you only a couple of enhancements that are redundant to your primary stat.

    So as a jedi warrior you just want str/end.  Most items designed for your class will have str/end.  Sometimes the ratio is a bit different but basically the higher the quality or level the more stats...

    I personally think this is a negative what do you guys think?  Like it or think it over simplifies the whole quest for gear.  Or is it similar to other games just made totally obvious?

    Sw:tor seems to be taking this game in a different direction then WoW when it comes to progression, Sw:tor is a bit more simplified when It comes to stat progresstion but that not really a bad thing. The stat coefficients are different for every game meaning.

    Below is a copy and paste involving Sw:tor stats and how they effect your characters.

    * (S) Strength 

    * (A) Agility 

    * (E) Endurance 

    * (C) Cunning 

    * (W) Willpower 

    * (P) Presence 





    Base Stats/Leveling 



    Level 1 

    S - 48 

    A - 10 

    E - 48 

    C - 10 

    W - 54 

    P - 48 



    Level 2 

    S - 52 

    A - 11 

    E - 52 

    C - 11 

    W - 58 

    P - 52 



    Level 3 

    S - 55 

    A - 12 

    E - 55 

    C - 12 

    W - 62 

    P - 55 



    Level 4 

    S - 59 

    A - 13 

    E - 59 

    C - 13 

    W - 66 

    P - 59 



    Here is what we can see. Starting stats appear as follows: 

    Main stat: 54 

    Primary stats: 48 

    Secondary: 10 



    Each level, main and primary go up by 4, secondary goes up by 1. It is possible that their is a rotation we can see this by looking at the increase in primary stats. So they go up by 4, then they go up by 4, then they go up by 3, and rotate like that. Unfortunately everything after 4 level had too many factors, such as stat bonuses from gear and buffs, that I couldn't project it out further with the notes I had. With the simplicity of their design though I expect it was a mis-entry in coding and we will see it go +4/+1 respectively. 



    Also as far as base modifiers, it appears you start with the following: 

    Bonus damage: 0 

    Accuracy: 90 (don't know what this affects) 

    Crit %: 10% 

    Dmg reduction: 0 

    Def chance: 10 (don't know what this affects) 

    Glance: 0 

    Absorb: 0 (I assume both of these are affected by hardiness) 



    Then you take the stat modifiers and add them to the base. Lets get into stat modifiers then. 



    Stat Modifiers 



    You will need to do a little math beyond what I give you here, so I will show you exactly how it works. 



    Strength: - Affects bonus melee damage and bonus melee crit. 

    Every 10 points = +1 bonus damage 

    Every 40.1 points = +1% crit 



    ex: 77 Strength 

    77 / 10 = 7.7 bonus damage 

    77 / 40.1 = 1.92% bonus crit 



    Agility: - Affects bonus ranged damage and bonus ranged crit. 

    Formula the same as Strength 



    Endurance: - Affects bonus health and health regeneration. 

    Every 1 point = 10 health 

    Every 5 points = 1% regen 



    ex: 83 Endurance 

    83*10 = 830 bonus health 

    83 / 5 = 16.6% regen 



    Cunning: - Affects bonus tech damage and bonus tech crit. 

    Formula the same as Strength 



    Willpower: - Affects bonus force damage and bonus force crit. 

    Formula the same as Strength 



    Presence: - Affects bonus healing, extra companion health and extra companion damage. 

    Every 5 points = +1 bonus healing 

    Every 1 point = +2 bonus companion health 

    Every 20 points = +1% companion damage 



    ex: 75 Presence 

    75 / 5 = +15 bonus healing 

    75 * 2 = +150 companion health 

    75 / 20 = +3.75% companion damage 



    Armor: - Affects Kinetic and Energy damage reduction. 

    Every 20.8 points = 1% reduction 



    ex: 79 Armor 

    79 / 20.8 = 3.8% reduction 

    You really missed my point.  They have stats which might be ok.  But they introduced the concept of a class stat and made it a super stat that basically makes the other stats useless.  So as a smuggler or agent the only stat you care about is cunning and endurance you get automatically with every item.  For any class of item the ratio of between your primary stat and end is either static or there are two ratios one oriented on each adv class.

    As a result the stats are pretty much intrinsic in the quality of the item.  Get a green item at lvl 20 and you got 9 cunning and 11 endurance.  Get the same level item in blue and it will be 10 cunning and 12 endurance.  There are no items that are 5 cunning and 19 end or any other ratio in that class.  Occasionally you will find the ratio changed so you might see 11 cunning and 9 end they are the same just flipped.  

    But realistically as a smuggler you would never use any other stat as they would be a negative.  Presence as a stat I don't think I've ever seen in an item.  

    The only exception are the bonuses on some items particularly at high levels.  Defence, accuracy, crit, etc.  These do give you some variation although perhaps when I play the high end game I'd find those really don't matter either or there isn't really any choice.

    ---
    Ethion

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