How the hell is this giant battleground "meaningful"?
It pulls you out of the normal game world, it has no effect on the real game world, you're fighting in some magical wonderland against alternate versions of your own people for no reason at all... Sorry, but that's just lame.
Although I know you just post these things in order to start arguments, there's at least some chance that others might benefit from some accurate info, so I'll try to help.
The mists don't "pull you out" of anything. You choose to go take part in the WvWvW content any time you want, it's continuous, and you can go back and forth any time you want.
It does actually have effects on the "real" game world (I'm guessing you mean the PvE game world when you say "real"...since I'm not sure why one zone is more "real" than another in your mind). Servers will receive buffs and benefits from winning the two-week matches in WvWvW...that's a direct effect on the PvE game world.
Fighting in some magical wonderland? It's just some zones which are a different part of the world, or a different part of the history of the world.
When you say fighting against "alternate versions" of your own people...are you perhaps thinking about the competitive PvP where all players are automatically scaled to max with full armor, weapons, and skills to create a level playing field? In WvWvW, you bring your character, you have your own armor, weapons, and skills. It's not an alternate version of your character at all.
Maybe I'm just misunderstanding, so you could clarify for me.
Who are you fighting in WvWvW? And for what ultimate aim?
Maybe I'm just misunderstanding, so you could clarify for me.
Who are you fighting in WvWvW? And for what ultimate aim?
The latter part is an interesting question. What's the ultimate aim of fighting anybody or anything in =any= MMORPG? With very few exceptions, there's little to no permanence for your actions.
Even in say... a sandbox with full loot, at best you're inconveniencing somebody most of the time.
I'm not sure 'annoying somebody else' works well as an ultimate aim.
For what it's worth, in WvWvW you're fighting against =evil creepy mirror world enemies=, people from a false reality, who must be destroyed, to earn the favor of the gods for the =real= people, from your own (the only true) universe.
What could possibly be more important than the favor of the gods?
Or more creepily threatening than people who APPEAR to be real, but are just crazy twisted unreal people?
It's like invasion of the Body Snatchers, or anything else with dopplegangers! It's one of the deepest seated fears of humanity, and therefore by extension, most sentient beings as portrayed by humans.
Originally posted by czekoskwigel Originally posted by Fozzik
Originally posted by czekoskwigel
How the hell is this giant battleground "meaningful"? It pulls you out of the normal game world, it has no effect on the real game world, you're fighting in some magical wonderland against alternate versions of your own people for no reason at all... Sorry, but that's just lame.
Although I know you just post these things in order to start arguments, there's at least some chance that others might benefit from some accurate info, so I'll try to help.
The mists don't "pull you out" of anything. You choose to go take part in the WvWvW content any time you want, it's continuous, and you can go back and forth any time you want.
It does actually have effects on the "real" game world (I'm guessing you mean the PvE game world when you say "real"...since I'm not sure why one zone is more "real" than another in your mind). Servers will receive buffs and benefits from winning the two-week matches in WvWvW...that's a direct effect on the PvE game world.
Fighting in some magical wonderland? It's just some zones which are a different part of the world, or a different part of the history of the world.
When you say fighting against "alternate versions" of your own people...are you perhaps thinking about the competitive PvP where all players are automatically scaled to max with full armor, weapons, and skills to create a level playing field? In WvWvW, you bring your character, you have your own armor, weapons, and skills. It's not an alternate version of your character at all. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding, so you could clarify for me. Who are you fighting in WvWvW? And for what ultimate aim?
You are fighting players from other servers. The ultimate aim is to win.... to gain prestige for your server, improve your server's record / ranking vs. all others, and to gain benefits for PvE and probably PvP as well.
See, the fundamental difference here is that this PvP will be about the communities of REAL PLAYERS that form on each server, not some NPC faction that you fight for simply because of the race you chose to play. It will be about server pride and being part of something much bigger than a guild. It's a whole different idea than the lore-based faction conflicts where players are delineated through the lore. The idea is to make the PvE game more social, since players won't be cut off from half the races and half the zones just because of their faction choice (can play with friends regardless of their choices), while also making PvP much more of a community-building experience.
If your complaint is that they didn't make some races "Bad" and some races "good", just be aware that the lore of all the races is quite a bit more complex than that...there are conflicts between the races, but the PvE story involves them all grudgingly working together and resolving their differences in order to defeat a common, immensely powerful foe. The PvP game is more about the game of it, rather than the story.
How the hell is this giant battleground "meaningful"?
It pulls you out of the normal game world, it has no effect on the real game world, you're fighting in some magical wonderland against alternate versions of your own people for no reason at all... Sorry, but that's just lame.
Although I know you just post these things in order to start arguments, there's at least some chance that others might benefit from some accurate info, so I'll try to help.
The mists don't "pull you out" of anything. You choose to go take part in the WvWvW content any time you want, it's continuous, and you can go back and forth any time you want.
It does actually have effects on the "real" game world (I'm guessing you mean the PvE game world when you say "real"...since I'm not sure why one zone is more "real" than another in your mind). Servers will receive buffs and benefits from winning the two-week matches in WvWvW...that's a direct effect on the PvE game world.
Fighting in some magical wonderland? It's just some zones which are a different part of the world, or a different part of the history of the world.
When you say fighting against "alternate versions" of your own people...are you perhaps thinking about the competitive PvP where all players are automatically scaled to max with full armor, weapons, and skills to create a level playing field? In WvWvW, you bring your character, you have your own armor, weapons, and skills. It's not an alternate version of your character at all.
Maybe I'm just misunderstanding, so you could clarify for me.
Who are you fighting in WvWvW? And for what ultimate aim?
You are fighting players from other servers. The ultimate aim is to win.... to gain prestige for your server, improve your server's record / ranking vs. all others, and to gain benefits for PvE and probably PvP as well.
See, the fundamental difference here is that this PvP will be about the communities of REAL PLAYERS that form on each server, not some NPC faction that you fight for simply because of the race you chose to play. It will be about server pride and being part of something much bigger than a guild. It's a whole different idea than the lore-based faction conflicts where players are delineated through the lore. The idea is to make the PvE game more social, since players won't be cut off from half the races and half the zones just because of their faction choice (can play with friends regardless of their choices), while also making PvP much more of a community-building experience.
If your complaint is that they didn't make some races "Bad" and some races "good", just be aware that the lore of all the races is quite a bit more complex than that...there are conflicts between the races, but the PvE story involves them all grudgingly working together and resolving their differences in order to defeat a common, immensely powerful foe. The PvP game is more about the game of it, rather than the story.
This is why I skoff at it being referred to as "meaningfull".
It just doesn't work for me... If this were racial combat, 3 faction, I'd be all over it. I've read the first GW2 novel, I get the idea of the races working together, but for me I just can't swallow the idea that EVERYONE would fall in line, that there wouldn't be open combat and skirmeshes amongst the groups.
I like the way TSW is handling it... in public they have a kind of truce, they recognize that there's a common enemy out there... they can't fight in the streets because it would be attention to them... but in private, they battle it out to the death.
I guess I would just prefer a "real" enemy... the fighting against other people from an alternative universe just feels off. If this were an MMO based on "Fringe" it would make sense, but it isn't. For me this ends up kinda like space flight in SWTOR... not what it could be, and nothing more than a mini-game.
It's not enough to keep my from playing the game, it's just something I wish they'd have handled better.
Maybe I'm just misunderstanding, so you could clarify for me.
Who are you fighting in WvWvW? And for what ultimate aim?
Part of the design philosophy of GW2 is to let players do whatever they want to do. You don't have to raid to get the best gear. You don't have to do dungeons. You don't have to PVP, you actually don't even have to PVE. You don't have to craft, you don't have to do your personal story. You don't have to follow a leveling path or even level in your own race's zones. In dynamic events you'll probably even be able to some degree not even have to fight in order to get rewarded (rezzing people and completing secondary objectives count as contributing)
So on the most basic level I have to say the aim of World PVP is to have fun. If you don't find it fun, do something else.
The PVE world of GW2 is factionless and attempting to be entirely cooperative. They also wanted to have 3 faction PVP and that's a pretty incompatible goal. Their justification, (which Meowhead actually managed to make sound not terrible) is that it takes place in an alternate reality. It's kind of painted into a corner, probably necessarily so since it's server vs server, but imho thankfully gameplay came first over lore.
I'm not saying their system isn't without drawbacks or sacrifices, but I think it's a very interesting way to do things. Your server has a win loss record to fight over, unlike other games where you just requeue for the battleground and W/L only affects how many tokens you got. Making it server vs server doesn't divide your PVE playerbase. It also makes it so it's not always the same thing with larger faction A vs B+C. Server matchups are changed after each two weeks so it not only puts you up against equally matched servers, but you also don't know whether you're the big or little server.
Who am I kidding. It's PVP. It's about teabagging someone.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
This is why I skoff at it being referred to as "meaningfull". It just doesn't work for me... If this were racial combat, 3 faction, I'd be all over it. I've read the first GW2 novel, I get the idea of the races working together, but for me I just can't swallow the idea that EVERYONE would fall in line, that there wouldn't be open combat and skirmeshes amongst the groups. I like the way TSW is handling it... in public they have a kind of truce, they recognize that there's a common enemy out there... they can't fight in the streets because it would be attention to them... but in private, they battle it out to the death. I guess I would just prefer a "real" enemy... the fighting against other people from an alternative universe just feels off. If this were an MMO based on "Fringe" it would make sense, but it isn't. For me this ends up kinda like space flight in SWTOR... not what it could be, and nothing more than a mini-game. It's not enough to keep my from playing the game, it's just something I wish they'd have handled better.
So, you're issue is that the PvP doesn't have a solid reasoning within the lore...you feel a need for the PvE story and world to provide you with a justification for fighting other players in PvP. That makes sense, and it's certainly typical of older, "traditional" PvE MMORPGs to have PvP servers to allow for just what you're talking about. Guild Wars 2 is certainly going to be different in a lot of ways.
Honestly, how many PvP players are running around role-playing and fighting other players strictly to advance and act out the lore? The truth is the lore splitting players up into factions is usually pretty superficial and arbitrary...once the fighting starts, it's really about the game's mechanics, balance, and how fun it is to play. I think the trade-off of losing a bit of virtual-world-realism is worth the great benefits that are gained by separating PvP and PvE rulesets, and allowing players to compete with the best, most balanced game play possible.
I know that GW2 does provide a lore rationale for the PvP in the mists. The fact that players aren't split up into factions doesn't mean there's no story at all. From the little we've learned, it has to do with players re-living famous battles from the history of Tyria.
I can agree that I like these virtual worlds to be internally consistent. In this particular case (the rationale behind PvP), It seems that ArenaNet chose to go more for what was best in terms of game design. Personally, I don't mind. GW2's PvE world is going to be dramatically more alive, more cohesive, and more internally consistent and realistic than any virtual world we've seen in a long time. I think PvE is really the place to explore a story and role-play.
Are there players out there who strictly want to role-play the lore in a world with completely open PvP? Certainly...but it's a small minority. GW2 isn't going to serve those folks, as far as I know. For everyone else, I think the decision to separate the rulesets the way they are is the best of all worlds.
1) Anet is doing things different from the norm. This could be bad to some who think rehashing is ok and have the "if it aint broke" mentality. For me it will be a learning curve but I look forward to the changes.
2) I won't forced to play the game a certain way. I can level wherever I want and however I want. No quest hubs and linear paths.
3) Scaling means I can play with who I want, when I want, wihtout the need for reserving a character.
4) I can participate in others stories and they can do the same in mine. this feeds into examples 2 and 3.
5) The PvP looks fun to me. I have spent a majority of my PvP in games that are all about the gear > skill. Nice to see that gear won't dictate who wins in a fight.
6) If the community is anything like the small community that frequents the GW2 section here, I will be happy. There have been some pretty good discussions and sharing of ideas and interpretations.
7) It's B2P. Whether this ends up working out or not, it is something different that could have some affect on the genre, Not saying it will, but if Anet pulls off a full MMO on the B2P model and proves that P2P are pretty much blowing smoke up the consumers asses, it is going to be interesting to see what happens.
8) DE's are going to be the main focus of exp gain rather than quest or mob grinding. Call it a different kind of grind or a disguised quest system if you want, but it is different. DE's allow for choice see example 2.
All for the combat physics and the combat system in general, dodge, block, be able to actually fight for once I find each one of the races interesting as well as the background stories driving the character.
This is why I skoff at it being referred to as "meaningfull".
It just doesn't work for me... If this were racial combat, 3 faction, I'd be all over it. I've read the first GW2 novel, I get the idea of the races working together, but for me I just can't swallow the idea that EVERYONE would fall in line, that there wouldn't be open combat and skirmeshes amongst the groups.
I like the way TSW is handling it... in public they have a kind of truce, they recognize that there's a common enemy out there... they can't fight in the streets because it would be attention to them... but in private, they battle it out to the death.
I guess I would just prefer a "real" enemy... the fighting against other people from an alternative universe just feels off. If this were an MMO based on "Fringe" it would make sense, but it isn't. For me this ends up kinda like space flight in SWTOR... not what it could be, and nothing more than a mini-game.
It's not enough to keep my from playing the game, it's just something I wish they'd have handled better.
So, you're issue is that the PvP doesn't have a solid reasoning within the lore...you feel a need for the PvE story and world to provide you with a justification for fighting other players in PvP. That makes sense, and it's certainly typical of older, "traditional" PvE MMORPGs to have PvP servers to allow for just what you're talking about. Guild Wars 2 is certainly going to be different in a lot of ways.
Honestly, how many PvP players are running around role-playing and fighting other players strictly to advance and act out the lore? The truth is the lore splitting players up into factions is usually pretty superficial and arbitrary...once the fighting starts, it's really about the game's mechanics, balance, and how fun it is to play. I think the trade-off of losing a bit of virtual-world-realism is worth the great benefits that are gained by separating PvP and PvE rulesets, and allowing players to compete with the best, most balanced game play possible.
I know that GW2 does provide a lore rationale for the PvP in the mists. The fact that players aren't split up into factions doesn't mean there's no story at all. From the little we've learned, it has to do with players re-living famous battles from the history of Tyria.
I can agree that I like these virtual worlds to be internally consistent. In this particular case (the rationale behind PvP), It seems that ArenaNet chose to go more for what was best in terms of game design. Personally, I don't mind. GW2's PvE world is going to be dramatically more alive, more cohesive, and more internally consistent and realistic than any virtual world we've seen in a long time. I think PvE is really the place to explore a story and role-play.
Are there players out there who strictly want to role-play the lore in a world with completely open PvP? Certainly...but it's a small minority. GW2 isn't going to serve those folks, as far as I know. For everyone else, I think the decision to separate the rulesets the way they are is the best of all worlds.
Don't bother with him, his opinion is his opinion, how ever I do feel that it might be a bit trollish, because in other games when its server v Server, its exactly what it sounds like Server v Server, every one on one server no matter the race andgainst another server with everyone and all races.
The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true.
I actually agree with the Czech guy in one respect. I do wish there was a better lore reason for the WWW part of the game. I don't mind faction warfare and I actually think they could have setup this game with that in mind but it wasn't the direction ArenaNet wanted to go. I respect their design decision but I do think the lore aspect of the pvp could be a bit tighter.
With that said, I'm absolutely positive that the actual gameplay of the WWW will be awesome. It's probably what I'm looking forward to most in the game.
Most other things that have been talked about are subjective, but really I don't quite get how the game is supposed to have "active combat." From what I understand, the only active part is being able to dodge certain attacks, but dodging itself is just a directional jump that costs energy (or whatever the global resource is called.)
People celebrate this revolutionary combat system, but it just looks watered down and homogenized to me.
I think another thread was started about this, and I'm really looking forward to it buuuuutttt, I'm getting tired of the subject really. I would like some information on release date. Its kind of hard to maintain hype of such a long period.
Originally posted by stealthbr Anyone care to inform how Guild Wars 2's end-game will be like? I haven't read the entire thread, but one post covering it all would be nice.
Most other things that have been talked about are subjective, but really I don't quite get how the game is supposed to have "active combat." From what I understand, the only active part is being able to dodge certain attacks, but dodging itself is just a directional jump that costs energy (or whatever the global resource is called.)
People celebrate this revolutionary combat system, but it just looks watered down and homogenized to me.
The first thing other than dodging that makes combat active is that you can use a ton of skills while you're on the move. Here's a video that shows some moving and dodging.
Second, there's cross profession combos. In this video, we see an elementalist drop a fire wall, and when the warrior does the whirling axe ability inside it, it launches fire in each direction for additional damage. This blog post has a more detailed discussion.
Third, there's the downed state. When your health goes to 0, you don't immediately die, you go downed. Any class can rez anybody else mid combat, or if you kill an enemy you'll rally. Here's a video of a person going downed three times, and also a little cross profession combo discussion (which actually starts before the time of the video link).
Actually, I have to run out, but seeing as how I don't even think I'm halfway through describing the combat in this game this might be a good time to stop. I'll follow up later.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Along with the things Cali mentioned, there's also the physicality of things...positioning, dodging, the way attacks are targeted, etc. There's no global cooldown or auto-attack. Many skills have a movement component associated with them...like a heal + backwards roll, or a stab+teleport, which further creates opportunities to avoid attacks beyond just dodging.
You can block things from hitting a caster by standing in front of them with a shield. You can swing or cast and hit things without having them targeted. You can't target friendly players, so nobody is going to be clicking your HP bar and healing you...you're going to have to move and use what's available on the field to keep yourself alive and improve your productivity.
As a ranged attacker, you can use positioning, elevation, and cover in real ways...it's even possible to attack a mob from a position where they can't hit you back. Force fields and shields can actually bounce attacks back at mobs...
ArenaNet has also begun talking about their AI, and some of the things they will be doing. The mobs themselves will often make combat much more active...by attacking using different criteria...doing crazy things like attacking the player that's farthest away, dodging, kiting players, or launching extremely deadly attacks that players MUST dodge or counter to avoid dying.
I woulnd't say the combat in this game is going to be extremely revolutionary, but it should be alot more fluid and dynamic than previous cookie cutter mmo's. I'll just list some things:
Class Combos: some skills can be used in combination with the skills of another player to combine effects
Dodging: Active Dodging of many attacks, not just based on random number generators
No Holy Trinity: All classes can perform all roles, but certain classes and/or class setups based on chosen skills/layouts will be more specialized.
Positioning: As A-Net have mentioned many times before, many abilities will not be tab targeted and will be based on positioning. ex. Engineer droping medkits on the ground instead of tab target casting. The use of positioning being important in combat puts less need on monitoring, bars and looking at the keyboard etc...
Im sure theres plenty more, but Im not as obsessed (no offence intended) with the games details as much as some here.
So the ways in which you progress a character after you reach maximum combat level include: story progression, item appearances, and crafting. Am I missing something? If so, please point it out.
So the ways in which you progress a character after you reach maximum combat level include: story progression, item appearances, and crafting. Am I missing something? If so, please point it out.
Ability and trait acquisition, guild advancement, collections, achievements and feats. Also, you can progress your character's reputation among your community, and progress your server's win/loss record and gain buffs / benefits for your server in WvWvW PvP.
In all fairness, vertical progression is much less significant in GW2's endgame...instead it's about the journey and horizontal progression/depth...enjoying the game play rather than getting lead around by the nose to the next little carrot. You'll be playing because you WANT to get X or see Y or hang out with some new players you met while getting your arse handed to you in a starter zone... the options available to each player only expand as they gain levels, rather than content becoming trivial and options shrinking steadily until there's only one (like the typical raid-focused bait-and-switch endgame).
So the ways in which you progress a character after you reach maximum combat level include: story progression, item appearances, and crafting. Am I missing something? If so, please point it out.
This is one of these 'your mileage may vary' things. Some people like horizontal progression and expanding personal skill, some people prefer to constantly have a more powerful character.
If you prefer the former, you can probably get a lot more gameplay out of GW2 than somebody who goes 'Oh. Well, I have max level with my equipment, I guess I'm done now'. Most MMORPGs mostly cater towards the second type of player.
So the ways in which you progress a character after you reach maximum combat level include: story progression, item appearances, and crafting. Am I missing something? If so, please point it out.
Ability and trait acquisition, guild advancement, collections, achievements and feats. Also, you can progress your character's reputation among your community, and progress your server's win/loss record and gain buffs / benefits for your server in WvWvW PvP.
In all fairness, vertical progression is much less significant in GW2's endgame...instead it's about the journey and horizontal progression/depth...enjoying the game play rather than getting lead around by the nose to the next little carrot. You'll be playing because you WANT to get X or see Y or hang out with some new players you met while getting your arse handed to you in a starter zone... the options available to each player only expand as they gain levels, rather than content becoming trivial and options shrinking steadily until there's only one (like the typical raid-focused bait-and-switch endgame).
So basically, you'll be doing everything you already do in other MMORPGs aside from raiding only somehow players will magically be more social and will magically want to progress through the game more slowly because they WANT to see ALL the content?
So the ways in which you progress a character after you reach maximum combat level include: story progression, item appearances, and crafting. Am I missing something? If so, please point it out.
Ability and trait acquisition, guild advancement, collections, achievements and feats. Also, you can progress your character's reputation among your community, and progress your server's win/loss record and gain buffs / benefits for your server in WvWvW PvP.
In all fairness, vertical progression is much less significant in GW2's endgame...instead it's about the journey and horizontal progression/depth...enjoying the game play rather than getting lead around by the nose to the next little carrot. You'll be playing because you WANT to get X or see Y or hang out with some new players you met while getting your arse handed to you in a starter zone... the options available to each player only expand as they gain levels, rather than content becoming trivial and options shrinking steadily until there's only one (like the typical raid-focused bait-and-switch endgame).
So basically, you'll be doing everything you already do in other MMORPGs aside from raiding only somehow players will magically be more social and will magically want to progress through the game more slowly because they WANT to see ALL the content?
Whether or not they want to progress through the game more slowly is definitely questionable. There will always be players that want to rush to end level. But I do believe, on a macro scale, this game will be more social just because of its game design. Sure there will always be asshats, especially in a game like this that will probably sell a couple million copies. All the main barriers to inclusive play are happily being done away with: 1) don't need to party to get buffs, give buffs, or get XP and loot 2) No kill stealing 3) no real gear check 4) bring the player NOT the class. This ad hoc style to game design will naturally move people to start working together... this is like an ice breaker at a mingling party. It will help open some people up to actually conversing with each other, and potentially befriending one another.
Comments
Maybe I'm just misunderstanding, so you could clarify for me.
Who are you fighting in WvWvW? And for what ultimate aim?
The latter part is an interesting question. What's the ultimate aim of fighting anybody or anything in =any= MMORPG? With very few exceptions, there's little to no permanence for your actions.
Even in say... a sandbox with full loot, at best you're inconveniencing somebody most of the time.
I'm not sure 'annoying somebody else' works well as an ultimate aim.
For what it's worth, in WvWvW you're fighting against =evil creepy mirror world enemies=, people from a false reality, who must be destroyed, to earn the favor of the gods for the =real= people, from your own (the only true) universe.
What could possibly be more important than the favor of the gods?
Or more creepily threatening than people who APPEAR to be real, but are just crazy twisted unreal people?
It's like invasion of the Body Snatchers, or anything else with dopplegangers! It's one of the deepest seated fears of humanity, and therefore by extension, most sentient beings as portrayed by humans.
Although I know you just post these things in order to start arguments, there's at least some chance that others might benefit from some accurate info, so I'll try to help.
The mists don't "pull you out" of anything. You choose to go take part in the WvWvW content any time you want, it's continuous, and you can go back and forth any time you want.
It does actually have effects on the "real" game world (I'm guessing you mean the PvE game world when you say "real"...since I'm not sure why one zone is more "real" than another in your mind). Servers will receive buffs and benefits from winning the two-week matches in WvWvW...that's a direct effect on the PvE game world.
Fighting in some magical wonderland? It's just some zones which are a different part of the world, or a different part of the history of the world.
When you say fighting against "alternate versions" of your own people...are you perhaps thinking about the competitive PvP where all players are automatically scaled to max with full armor, weapons, and skills to create a level playing field? In WvWvW, you bring your character, you have your own armor, weapons, and skills. It's not an alternate version of your character at all.
Maybe I'm just misunderstanding, so you could clarify for me.
Who are you fighting in WvWvW? And for what ultimate aim?
You are fighting players from other servers. The ultimate aim is to win.... to gain prestige for your server, improve your server's record / ranking vs. all others, and to gain benefits for PvE and probably PvP as well.
See, the fundamental difference here is that this PvP will be about the communities of REAL PLAYERS that form on each server, not some NPC faction that you fight for simply because of the race you chose to play. It will be about server pride and being part of something much bigger than a guild. It's a whole different idea than the lore-based faction conflicts where players are delineated through the lore. The idea is to make the PvE game more social, since players won't be cut off from half the races and half the zones just because of their faction choice (can play with friends regardless of their choices), while also making PvP much more of a community-building experience.
If your complaint is that they didn't make some races "Bad" and some races "good", just be aware that the lore of all the races is quite a bit more complex than that...there are conflicts between the races, but the PvE story involves them all grudgingly working together and resolving their differences in order to defeat a common, immensely powerful foe. The PvP game is more about the game of it, rather than the story.
This is why I skoff at it being referred to as "meaningfull".
It just doesn't work for me... If this were racial combat, 3 faction, I'd be all over it. I've read the first GW2 novel, I get the idea of the races working together, but for me I just can't swallow the idea that EVERYONE would fall in line, that there wouldn't be open combat and skirmeshes amongst the groups.
I like the way TSW is handling it... in public they have a kind of truce, they recognize that there's a common enemy out there... they can't fight in the streets because it would be attention to them... but in private, they battle it out to the death.
I guess I would just prefer a "real" enemy... the fighting against other people from an alternative universe just feels off. If this were an MMO based on "Fringe" it would make sense, but it isn't. For me this ends up kinda like space flight in SWTOR... not what it could be, and nothing more than a mini-game.
It's not enough to keep my from playing the game, it's just something I wish they'd have handled better.
Part of the design philosophy of GW2 is to let players do whatever they want to do. You don't have to raid to get the best gear. You don't have to do dungeons. You don't have to PVP, you actually don't even have to PVE. You don't have to craft, you don't have to do your personal story. You don't have to follow a leveling path or even level in your own race's zones. In dynamic events you'll probably even be able to some degree not even have to fight in order to get rewarded (rezzing people and completing secondary objectives count as contributing)
So on the most basic level I have to say the aim of World PVP is to have fun. If you don't find it fun, do something else.
The PVE world of GW2 is factionless and attempting to be entirely cooperative. They also wanted to have 3 faction PVP and that's a pretty incompatible goal. Their justification, (which Meowhead actually managed to make sound not terrible) is that it takes place in an alternate reality. It's kind of painted into a corner, probably necessarily so since it's server vs server, but imho thankfully gameplay came first over lore.
I'm not saying their system isn't without drawbacks or sacrifices, but I think it's a very interesting way to do things. Your server has a win loss record to fight over, unlike other games where you just requeue for the battleground and W/L only affects how many tokens you got. Making it server vs server doesn't divide your PVE playerbase. It also makes it so it's not always the same thing with larger faction A vs B+C. Server matchups are changed after each two weeks so it not only puts you up against equally matched servers, but you also don't know whether you're the big or little server.
Who am I kidding. It's PVP. It's about teabagging someone.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
So, you're issue is that the PvP doesn't have a solid reasoning within the lore...you feel a need for the PvE story and world to provide you with a justification for fighting other players in PvP. That makes sense, and it's certainly typical of older, "traditional" PvE MMORPGs to have PvP servers to allow for just what you're talking about. Guild Wars 2 is certainly going to be different in a lot of ways.
Honestly, how many PvP players are running around role-playing and fighting other players strictly to advance and act out the lore? The truth is the lore splitting players up into factions is usually pretty superficial and arbitrary...once the fighting starts, it's really about the game's mechanics, balance, and how fun it is to play. I think the trade-off of losing a bit of virtual-world-realism is worth the great benefits that are gained by separating PvP and PvE rulesets, and allowing players to compete with the best, most balanced game play possible.
I know that GW2 does provide a lore rationale for the PvP in the mists. The fact that players aren't split up into factions doesn't mean there's no story at all. From the little we've learned, it has to do with players re-living famous battles from the history of Tyria.
I can agree that I like these virtual worlds to be internally consistent. In this particular case (the rationale behind PvP), It seems that ArenaNet chose to go more for what was best in terms of game design. Personally, I don't mind. GW2's PvE world is going to be dramatically more alive, more cohesive, and more internally consistent and realistic than any virtual world we've seen in a long time. I think PvE is really the place to explore a story and role-play.
Are there players out there who strictly want to role-play the lore in a world with completely open PvP? Certainly...but it's a small minority. GW2 isn't going to serve those folks, as far as I know. For everyone else, I think the decision to separate the rulesets the way they are is the best of all worlds.
1) Anet is doing things different from the norm. This could be bad to some who think rehashing is ok and have the "if it aint broke" mentality. For me it will be a learning curve but I look forward to the changes.
2) I won't forced to play the game a certain way. I can level wherever I want and however I want. No quest hubs and linear paths.
3) Scaling means I can play with who I want, when I want, wihtout the need for reserving a character.
4) I can participate in others stories and they can do the same in mine. this feeds into examples 2 and 3.
5) The PvP looks fun to me. I have spent a majority of my PvP in games that are all about the gear > skill. Nice to see that gear won't dictate who wins in a fight.
6) If the community is anything like the small community that frequents the GW2 section here, I will be happy. There have been some pretty good discussions and sharing of ideas and interpretations.
7) It's B2P. Whether this ends up working out or not, it is something different that could have some affect on the genre, Not saying it will, but if Anet pulls off a full MMO on the B2P model and proves that P2P are pretty much blowing smoke up the consumers asses, it is going to be interesting to see what happens.
8) DE's are going to be the main focus of exp gain rather than quest or mob grinding. Call it a different kind of grind or a disguised quest system if you want, but it is different. DE's allow for choice see example 2.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
All for the combat physics and the combat system in general, dodge, block, be able to actually fight for once
I find each one of the races interesting as well as the background stories driving the character.
Don't bother with him, his opinion is his opinion, how ever I do feel that it might be a bit trollish, because in other games when its server v Server, its exactly what it sounds like Server v Server, every one on one server no matter the race andgainst another server with everyone and all races.
The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true.
Carl Sagan-
I actually agree with the Czech guy in one respect. I do wish there was a better lore reason for the WWW part of the game. I don't mind faction warfare and I actually think they could have setup this game with that in mind but it wasn't the direction ArenaNet wanted to go. I respect their design decision but I do think the lore aspect of the pvp could be a bit tighter.
With that said, I'm absolutely positive that the actual gameplay of the WWW will be awesome. It's probably what I'm looking forward to most in the game.
Anyone care to inform how Guild Wars 2's end-game will be like? I haven't read the entire thread, but one post covering it all would be nice.
Well for me its only 1 reason. Its called "ArenaNet".
#1 reason for my hype about GW2
It can't be that much longer b4 it's released.
(should only be another year or two by now......yay)
Everything about this game has my expectations sky high.
One thing that stands out for me is the Personnal Story and not being forced into a certain role.
"My Fantasy is having two men at once...
One Cooking and One Cleaning!"
---------------------------
"A good man can make you feel sexy,
strong and able to take on the whole world...
oh sorry...that's wine...wine does that..."
Most other things that have been talked about are subjective, but really I don't quite get how the game is supposed to have "active combat." From what I understand, the only active part is being able to dodge certain attacks, but dodging itself is just a directional jump that costs energy (or whatever the global resource is called.)
People celebrate this revolutionary combat system, but it just looks watered down and homogenized to me.
I think another thread was started about this, and I'm really looking forward to it buuuuutttt, I'm getting tired of the subject really. I would like some information on release date. Its kind of hard to maintain hype of such a long period.
I self identify as a monkey.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE3Yo9qrbRY
educate thyself.
The first thing other than dodging that makes combat active is that you can use a ton of skills while you're on the move. Here's a video that shows some moving and dodging.
Second, there's cross profession combos. In this video, we see an elementalist drop a fire wall, and when the warrior does the whirling axe ability inside it, it launches fire in each direction for additional damage. This blog post has a more detailed discussion.
Third, there's the downed state. When your health goes to 0, you don't immediately die, you go downed. Any class can rez anybody else mid combat, or if you kill an enemy you'll rally. Here's a video of a person going downed three times, and also a little cross profession combo discussion (which actually starts before the time of the video link).
Actually, I have to run out, but seeing as how I don't even think I'm halfway through describing the combat in this game this might be a good time to stop. I'll follow up later.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Along with the things Cali mentioned, there's also the physicality of things...positioning, dodging, the way attacks are targeted, etc. There's no global cooldown or auto-attack. Many skills have a movement component associated with them...like a heal + backwards roll, or a stab+teleport, which further creates opportunities to avoid attacks beyond just dodging.
You can block things from hitting a caster by standing in front of them with a shield. You can swing or cast and hit things without having them targeted. You can't target friendly players, so nobody is going to be clicking your HP bar and healing you...you're going to have to move and use what's available on the field to keep yourself alive and improve your productivity.
As a ranged attacker, you can use positioning, elevation, and cover in real ways...it's even possible to attack a mob from a position where they can't hit you back. Force fields and shields can actually bounce attacks back at mobs...
ArenaNet has also begun talking about their AI, and some of the things they will be doing. The mobs themselves will often make combat much more active...by attacking using different criteria...doing crazy things like attacking the player that's farthest away, dodging, kiting players, or launching extremely deadly attacks that players MUST dodge or counter to avoid dying.
I woulnd't say the combat in this game is going to be extremely revolutionary, but it should be alot more fluid and dynamic than previous cookie cutter mmo's. I'll just list some things:
Class Combos: some skills can be used in combination with the skills of another player to combine effects
Dodging: Active Dodging of many attacks, not just based on random number generators
No Holy Trinity: All classes can perform all roles, but certain classes and/or class setups based on chosen skills/layouts will be more specialized.
Positioning: As A-Net have mentioned many times before, many abilities will not be tab targeted and will be based on positioning. ex. Engineer droping medkits on the ground instead of tab target casting. The use of positioning being important in combat puts less need on monitoring, bars and looking at the keyboard etc...
Im sure theres plenty more, but Im not as obsessed (no offence intended) with the games details as much as some here.
MMOs Played: FFXI,Age of Conan, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, TERA, TSW, GW2
Playing:None
Waiting For: Wildstar, The Repopulation, Archeage, TESO, Warhammer 40K:EC, EQN
So the ways in which you progress a character after you reach maximum combat level include: story progression, item appearances, and crafting. Am I missing something? If so, please point it out.
Ability and trait acquisition, guild advancement, collections, achievements and feats. Also, you can progress your character's reputation among your community, and progress your server's win/loss record and gain buffs / benefits for your server in WvWvW PvP.
In all fairness, vertical progression is much less significant in GW2's endgame...instead it's about the journey and horizontal progression/depth...enjoying the game play rather than getting lead around by the nose to the next little carrot. You'll be playing because you WANT to get X or see Y or hang out with some new players you met while getting your arse handed to you in a starter zone... the options available to each player only expand as they gain levels, rather than content becoming trivial and options shrinking steadily until there's only one (like the typical raid-focused bait-and-switch endgame).
This is one of these 'your mileage may vary' things. Some people like horizontal progression and expanding personal skill, some people prefer to constantly have a more powerful character.
If you prefer the former, you can probably get a lot more gameplay out of GW2 than somebody who goes 'Oh. Well, I have max level with my equipment, I guess I'm done now'. Most MMORPGs mostly cater towards the second type of player.
So basically, you'll be doing everything you already do in other MMORPGs aside from raiding only somehow players will magically be more social and will magically want to progress through the game more slowly because they WANT to see ALL the content?
Whether or not they want to progress through the game more slowly is definitely questionable. There will always be players that want to rush to end level. But I do believe, on a macro scale, this game will be more social just because of its game design. Sure there will always be asshats, especially in a game like this that will probably sell a couple million copies. All the main barriers to inclusive play are happily being done away with: 1) don't need to party to get buffs, give buffs, or get XP and loot 2) No kill stealing 3) no real gear check 4) bring the player NOT the class. This ad hoc style to game design will naturally move people to start working together... this is like an ice breaker at a mingling party. It will help open some people up to actually conversing with each other, and potentially befriending one another.