Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

What makes ganking newbs fun?

1910121415

Comments

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Originally posted by lizardbones
     


    Originally posted by RefMinor
     To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.



    This is the internet. They are all guys, there are no women, so they have no women.

     


    This is the internet, there are plenty of women, you just dont know who is who.
    <p>
    Most of my gaming friends are in relationships, some of them have played characters of the opposite sex, some haven't. There are no generalities that are absolute.



    60% of the time there are never any women.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • JoliustJoliust Member Posts: 1,329

    I don't go hunting for new players and if I come across a low player and he doesn't try to take me, I leave him alone.

    So no I don't understand ganking newbies.

    Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.

  • wowclonewowclone Member Posts: 36


     What makes ganking newbs fun?

     

    I woudn't know cause I tried ganking noobs in WOW and I didn't find it fun at all.  Not only are combat mechanics in wow-clones dumb looking in PVP, but there is no challenge in ganking noobs.  But I'm sure if I were the 'torture little animals' personality type I'd enjoy it more.

    "Pay it Forward," http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_it_forward no that philosphy don't appeal to me, I'm a Christian.

    Wut?

  • tekniko64tekniko64 Member Posts: 58

    I wouldn't say the majority but a handfull of players that play PVP games do it solely to piss other people off.  There is no easier way to show someone you are god then by killing a level 3 newb.  Honestly, its just a small community.  You know the community that also complains about every tiny change?  Yea those people.  I wouldn't worry about  what other people think or want.  In the end the developers decide what comes and goes. 

    image

  • pvpirlpvpirl Member UncommonPosts: 178

    Once upon a time I installed a game called Ultima Online. I walked around Trinsic, eventally tamed a dog, and started walking on a road that led out of town to see where it led to..

    After 10-15 minutes of walking though the forest, I get paralysed, two gentlemen with oddly red names in full plate emerge out of nowhere, an explosion and heavy crossbow bolt later, I was a ghost, I then watch one of them wrestle my beloved pet dog to death, mutilate my corpse, taunt me in some strange dialect consisting of numbers, then teleport away.

    This was literally 20 minutes into my UO experience in like 1996 or 1997.

    I stared at my screen, shocked, and announce "That. was. AWESOME."

    I immediately began my 80's movie montage of training, macroing, reading guide I could find online when my dialup connection felt like working, getting stronger and more leet, until one day, I encountered a young miner typing to a dog "Will you be my friend? I won't hurt you." in an ignorant newbie attempt trying to tame it.

    And yes, I wrestled his dog to death too.

  • OpapanaxOpapanax Member Posts: 973

    They lack any actual skill and will only engage when the odds are heavily in their favor. Hence they chase lowbies who can't do anything and probably don't know enough game mechanics to do anything even with an equal level. The ones that go around a actually hunt low levels are the most pathetic form of PvP.

    When these players who just feel so leet killing players 40+ levels lower than them does have a bit to do with the bully factor. The best part is when they bitch about you calling in a equal or higher level guildie to come beat em down repeatedly. Then they cry carebare.

    There needs to be a new title for these cowards of gamery. No gankers because a gank happens when ya caught unaware and most times outnumbered. These dudes should just be called douches lol.. yea that works..

    If you've spent more than 5 minutes in some newbie zone and have racked up 20 lowbies kills in ya.little adventure you are now douche not ganker. Of course maybe that NEWB is just so intimidating that just felt impelled to slay them.. most douches can't help but being douches. In real life and its displayed in their gameplay as well..

    PM before you report at least or you could just block.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437

    Nothing really for me.

    I want that new player to stay in my game instead of getting upset, so I won't gank.

    Ganking new players will hurt my own game because those players will leave, why would I want to hurt my own game..it needs income.

    Once he's grown up we can fight.

  • alkarionlogalkarionlog Member EpicPosts: 3,584

    Originally posted by Opapanax

    They lack any actual skill and will only engage when the odds are heavily in their favor. Hence they chase lowbies who can't do anything and probably don't know enough game mechanics to do anything even with an equal level. The ones that go around a actually hunt low levels are the most pathetic form of PvP.

    When these players who just feel so leet killing players 40+ levels lower than them does have a bit to do with the bully factor. The best part is when they bitch about you calling in a equal or higher level guildie to come beat em down repeatedly. Then they cry carebare.

    There needs to be a new title for these cowards of gamery. No gankers because a gank happens when ya caught unaware and most times outnumbered. These dudes should just be called douches lol.. yea that works..

    If you've spent more than 5 minutes in some newbie zone and have racked up 20 lowbies kills in ya.little adventure you are now douche not ganker. Of course maybe that NEWB is just so intimidating that just felt impelled to slay them.. most douches can't help but being douches. In real life and its displayed in their gameplay as well..

     pretty much this people who gank and kill lowbies don't know how to pvp against people of same lvl and power, its also funny because its people like this who normally yell zerg, bad, and all that lame talk.

     

    but one thing I have to give then, its always funny when you take a full group of this kind of player alone and you wipe then :), the chat is all so fun of 6-8 peeps crying hacks or so :p

    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
  • ariestearieste Member UncommonPosts: 3,309

    Originally posted by robert4818

     


    What makes ganking newbs fun?

    The same thing that makes torturing puppies or beating women fun.  

     

    In other words - i have no idea, but there is something and a certain type of people enjoys it.  I tend to not understand those people.

    "I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

    - Raph Koster

    Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
    Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
    Currently Playing: ESO

  • faxnadufaxnadu Member UncommonPosts: 940

    Originally posted by Leoghan

    The only thing I can see making it fun is a low level of self-esteem. 

    i add to this one and also weak in real life. pixel kings ftw. 

    people are sad.

     

    cheers

  • dave6660dave6660 Member UncommonPosts: 2,699

    These threads are pure comedy gold.

    Let me get this straight.  A player starts a PvP game, gets killed, emo rages, then starts a forum thread calling into question the mental status and manhood of the player who killed him.  Am I right so far?

    Have you ever stepped back for a moment and see how silly this sounds.  If it bothers you that much maybe you need another hobby.

    When you are new to a competitive game (not just video games), you are going to lose, a lot!  Stop expecting veteran players to show you mercy or treat you with kid gloves.  Man up!

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • VaultFairyVaultFairy Member UncommonPosts: 566

    Originally posted by arieste

    Originally posted by robert4818

     


    What makes ganking newbs fun?

    The same thing that makes torturing puppies or beating women fun.  

     

    In other words - i have no idea, but there is something and a certain type of people enjoys it.  I tend to not understand those people.

    ^ What she said.

  • alkarionlogalkarionlog Member EpicPosts: 3,584

    Originally posted by dave6660

    These threads are pure comedy gold.

    Let me get this straight.  A player starts a PvP game, gets killed, emo rages, then starts a forum thread calling into question the mental status and manhood of the player who killed him.  Am I right so far?

    Have you ever stepped back for a moment and see how silly this sounds.  If it bothers you that much maybe you need another hobby.

    When you are new to a competitive game (not just video games), you are going to lose, a lot!  Stop expecting veteran players to show you mercy or treat you with kid gloves.  Man up!

    if reading a forum bother you that much you shouldn't read :p

     

    but I guess the main problem here is not the pvp fact one, is someone leave a high lvl area to a low lvl area just to kill all players there, its diferent from a high lvl player running pass a map and see a enemy guild member or faction and kill him then leaves.

    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
  • dave6660dave6660 Member UncommonPosts: 2,699

    Originally posted by alkarionlog

    Originally posted by dave6660

    These threads are pure comedy gold.

    Let me get this straight.  A player starts a PvP game, gets killed, emo rages, then starts a forum thread calling into question the mental status and manhood of the player who killed him.  Am I right so far?

    Have you ever stepped back for a moment and see how silly this sounds.  If it bothers you that much maybe you need another hobby.

    When you are new to a competitive game (not just video games), you are going to lose, a lot!  Stop expecting veteran players to show you mercy or treat you with kid gloves.  Man up!

    if reading a forum bother you that much you shouldn't read :p

     

    but I guess the main problem here is not the pvp fact one, is someone leave a high lvl area to a low lvl area just to kill all players there, its diferent from a high lvl player running pass a map and see a enemy guild member or faction and kill him then leaves.

    Reading the forums doesn't bother me at all.  Like I said, I think the replies are hysterical in their lame attempt to find some type of correlation between killing pixels and a players mental status.

    From now on when I lose at chess I am going to accuse the person who beat me of being a sociopath for killing a royal family.  Also they should've let me win (or not played at all) because I was less experienced and/or not as good of a player.  I also demand a trophy just for playing otherwise it will hurt my delicate and special feelings.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • faxnadufaxnadu Member UncommonPosts: 940

    Originally posted by dave6660

    Originally posted by alkarionlog


    Originally posted by dave6660

    These threads are pure comedy gold.

    Let me get this straight.  A player starts a PvP game, gets killed, emo rages, then starts a forum thread calling into question the mental status and manhood of the player who killed him.  Am I right so far?

    Have you ever stepped back for a moment and see how silly this sounds.  If it bothers you that much maybe you need another hobby.

    When you are new to a competitive game (not just video games), you are going to lose, a lot!  Stop expecting veteran players to show you mercy or treat you with kid gloves.  Man up!

    if reading a forum bother you that much you shouldn't read :p

     

    but I guess the main problem here is not the pvp fact one, is someone leave a high lvl area to a low lvl area just to kill all players there, its diferent from a high lvl player running pass a map and see a enemy guild member or faction and kill him then leaves.

    Reading the forums doesn't bother me at all.  Like I said, I think the replies are hysterical in their lame attempt to find some type of correlation between killing pixels and a players mental status.

    From now on when I lose at chess I am going to accuse the person who beat me of being a sociopath for killing a royal family.  Also they should've let me win (or not played at all) because I was less experienced and/or not as good of a player.  I also demand a trophy just for playing otherwise it will hurt my delicate and special feelings.

    so tell me mr wiseguy do you gank noobs and why when you are so defending the pixel bullies? 

  • SquiggieSquiggie Member Posts: 104

    Originally posted by dave6660

    Originally posted by alkarionlog


    Originally posted by dave6660

    These threads are pure comedy gold.

    Let me get this straight.  A player starts a PvP game, gets killed, emo rages, then starts a forum thread calling into question the mental status and manhood of the player who killed him.  Am I right so far?

    Have you ever stepped back for a moment and see how silly this sounds.  If it bothers you that much maybe you need another hobby.

    When you are new to a competitive game (not just video games), you are going to lose, a lot!  Stop expecting veteran players to show you mercy or treat you with kid gloves.  Man up!

    if reading a forum bother you that much you shouldn't read :p

     

    but I guess the main problem here is not the pvp fact one, is someone leave a high lvl area to a low lvl area just to kill all players there, its diferent from a high lvl player running pass a map and see a enemy guild member or faction and kill him then leaves.

    Reading the forums doesn't bother me at all.  Like I said, I think the replies are hysterical in their lame attempt to find some type of correlation between killing pixels and a players mental status.

    From now on when I lose at chess I am going to accuse the person who beat me of being a sociopath for killing a royal family.  Also they should've let me win (or not played at all) because I was less experienced and/or not as good of a player.  I also demand a trophy just for playing otherwise it will hurt my delicate and special feelings.

    You really need to work on your reading comprehension.  This isn't about losing to someone more skilled than you.  Or even one-off trouncings by a high-level player.

    It's about certain individuals taking perverse pleasure in ruining another player's gaming experience.  The level 50 player runing around corpse-camping level 10 players.  Repeatedly (did I stress that enough?) killing characters that have zero chance of winning. 

    I have zero issues with losing to someone more skilled than me...it happes frequently.  I do have a problem not being able to get past level 10 because some douchebag level 50 is ganking me over and over...in a game I am paying a monthly fee to play no less.

  • dave6660dave6660 Member UncommonPosts: 2,699

    Originally posted by Squiggie

    Originally posted by dave6660


    Originally posted by alkarionlog


    Originally posted by dave6660

    These threads are pure comedy gold.

    Let me get this straight.  A player starts a PvP game, gets killed, emo rages, then starts a forum thread calling into question the mental status and manhood of the player who killed him.  Am I right so far?

    Have you ever stepped back for a moment and see how silly this sounds.  If it bothers you that much maybe you need another hobby.

    When you are new to a competitive game (not just video games), you are going to lose, a lot!  Stop expecting veteran players to show you mercy or treat you with kid gloves.  Man up!

    if reading a forum bother you that much you shouldn't read :p

     

    but I guess the main problem here is not the pvp fact one, is someone leave a high lvl area to a low lvl area just to kill all players there, its diferent from a high lvl player running pass a map and see a enemy guild member or faction and kill him then leaves.

    Reading the forums doesn't bother me at all.  Like I said, I think the replies are hysterical in their lame attempt to find some type of correlation between killing pixels and a players mental status.

    From now on when I lose at chess I am going to accuse the person who beat me of being a sociopath for killing a royal family.  Also they should've let me win (or not played at all) because I was less experienced and/or not as good of a player.  I also demand a trophy just for playing otherwise it will hurt my delicate and special feelings.

    You really need to work on your reading comprehension.  This isn't about losing to someone more skilled than you.  Or even one-off trouncings by a high-level player.

    It's about certain individuals taking perverse pleasure in ruining another player's gaming experience.  The level 50 player runing around corpse-camping level 10 players.  Repeatedly (did I stress that enough?) killing characters that have zero chance of winning. 

    I have zero issues with losing to someone more skilled than me...it happes frequently.  I do have a problem not being able to get past level 10 because some douchebag level 50 is ganking me over and over...in a game I am paying a monthly fee to play no less.

    Really?  I search in vein for the word "repeatedly" in the OP (or even the first page for that matter).  Ok, let's change the argument.

    I'll let you in on a little trick to beat people who camp you at the graveyard.  Log out for 15 minutes, they lose interest and you go on your merry way.  You only spend an hour or so in most starter areas so the problem goes away quickly.

    Also everybody else is paying their monthly fee too.  As long as they are not cheating then their play style is just as valid as yours.  If you want to play a FFA PvP game then killing noobs will happen.  Learn to deal with it or don't play.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • ElderRatElderRat Member CommonPosts: 899

    Originally posted by dave6660

    Originally posted by Squiggie


    Originally posted by dave6660


    Originally posted by alkarionlog


    Originally posted by dave6660

    These threads are pure comedy gold.

    Let me get this straight.  A player starts a PvP game, gets killed, emo rages, then starts a forum thread calling into question the mental status and manhood of the player who killed him.  Am I right so far?

    Have you ever stepped back for a moment and see how silly this sounds.  If it bothers you that much maybe you need another hobby.

    When you are new to a competitive game (not just video games), you are going to lose, a lot!  Stop expecting veteran players to show you mercy or treat you with kid gloves.  Man up!

    if reading a forum bother you that much you shouldn't read :p

     

    but I guess the main problem here is not the pvp fact one, is someone leave a high lvl area to a low lvl area just to kill all players there, its diferent from a high lvl player running pass a map and see a enemy guild member or faction and kill him then leaves.

    Reading the forums doesn't bother me at all.  Like I said, I think the replies are hysterical in their lame attempt to find some type of correlation between killing pixels and a players mental status.

    From now on when I lose at chess I am going to accuse the person who beat me of being a sociopath for killing a royal family.  Also they should've let me win (or not played at all) because I was less experienced and/or not as good of a player.  I also demand a trophy just for playing otherwise it will hurt my delicate and special feelings.

    You really need to work on your reading comprehension.  This isn't about losing to someone more skilled than you.  Or even one-off trouncings by a high-level player.

    It's about certain individuals taking perverse pleasure in ruining another player's gaming experience.  The level 50 player runing around corpse-camping level 10 players.  Repeatedly (did I stress that enough?) killing characters that have zero chance of winning. 

    I have zero issues with losing to someone more skilled than me...it happes frequently.  I do have a problem not being able to get past level 10 because some douchebag level 50 is ganking me over and over...in a game I am paying a monthly fee to play no less.

    Really?  I search in vein for the word "repeatedly" in the OP (or even the first page for that matter).  Ok, let's change the argument.

    I'll let you in on a little trick to beat people who camp you at the graveyard.  Log out for 15 minutes, they lose interest and you go on your merry way.  You only spend an hour or so in most starter areas so the problem goes away quickly.

    Also everybody else is paying their monthly fee too.  As long as they are not cheating then their play style is just as valid as yours.  If you want to play a FFA PvP game then killing noobs will happen.  Learn to deal with it or don't play.

    fair enough, well said.. but also do not complain that many people do not play those games or that only a few of those games are made.  Those who do not play them are, after all, merely following YOUR advice.

    Currently bored with MMO's.

  • n3verendRn3verendR Member UncommonPosts: 452

    I gank newbs because smashing individual bees is a good way to garner the attention of the bee hive.

    For example, in Darkshore post vanilla WoW... I used to occupy that place and kill EVERYONE. I don't care if you are level 15 or 70-80.

    Until I can't handle the number of opponents, I will occupy that place and purposefully stalk every red name in the vicinity. I'll probably do the same in SW:TOR assuming the high gcd isn't too much of a departure.

    People think it's fun to pretend your a monster. Me I spend my life pretending I'm not. - Dexter Morgan

  • MurashuMurashu Member UncommonPosts: 1,386

    Originally posted by robert4818

    SWTOR announced that you would not be able to make your way to the opponents starting world and gank starting players.  It did not say that they removed PVP, that it would only be instanced PVP, or that once someone left the starter planets (around lvl 20 or so) that you couldn't attack them.  ONLY that you you couldn't go and gank brand new toons.

    Nerd rage followed from the PK community.

    My question is WHY?

    Why is the ability to kill brand new players so integral to the playstyle?  Why does the temporary ability to avoid ganking cause so much hate and discontent?

    Bioware did not just remove the ability to kill brand new players. They've almost completely removed world PvP but still allow level 50 players to farm level 10 players in Warfronts.

     

    I personnally have no issue with protecting lower level players from the common ganker, but allowing level 50s to farm level 10s in Warfronts is quite frustrating and goes against what Bioware implied.

  • SquiggieSquiggie Member Posts: 104

    Originally posted by dave6660

    Originally posted by Squiggie


    Originally posted by dave6660


    Originally posted by alkarionlog


    Originally posted by dave6660

    These threads are pure comedy gold.

    Let me get this straight.  A player starts a PvP game, gets killed, emo rages, then starts a forum thread calling into question the mental status and manhood of the player who killed him.  Am I right so far?

    Have you ever stepped back for a moment and see how silly this sounds.  If it bothers you that much maybe you need another hobby.

    When you are new to a competitive game (not just video games), you are going to lose, a lot!  Stop expecting veteran players to show you mercy or treat you with kid gloves.  Man up!

    if reading a forum bother you that much you shouldn't read :p

     

    but I guess the main problem here is not the pvp fact one, is someone leave a high lvl area to a low lvl area just to kill all players there, its diferent from a high lvl player running pass a map and see a enemy guild member or faction and kill him then leaves.

    Reading the forums doesn't bother me at all.  Like I said, I think the replies are hysterical in their lame attempt to find some type of correlation between killing pixels and a players mental status.

    From now on when I lose at chess I am going to accuse the person who beat me of being a sociopath for killing a royal family.  Also they should've let me win (or not played at all) because I was less experienced and/or not as good of a player.  I also demand a trophy just for playing otherwise it will hurt my delicate and special feelings.

    You really need to work on your reading comprehension.  This isn't about losing to someone more skilled than you.  Or even one-off trouncings by a high-level player.

    It's about certain individuals taking perverse pleasure in ruining another player's gaming experience.  The level 50 player runing around corpse-camping level 10 players.  Repeatedly (did I stress that enough?) killing characters that have zero chance of winning. 

    I have zero issues with losing to someone more skilled than me...it happes frequently.  I do have a problem not being able to get past level 10 because some douchebag level 50 is ganking me over and over...in a game I am paying a monthly fee to play no less.

    Really?  I search in vein for the word "repeatedly" in the OP (or even the first page for that matter).  Ok, let's change the argument.

    I'll let you in on a little trick to beat people who camp you at the graveyard.  Log out for 15 minutes, they lose interest and you go on your merry way.  You only spend an hour or so in most starter areas so the problem goes away quickly.

    Also everybody else is paying their monthly fee too.  As long as they are not cheating then their play style is just as valid as yours.  If you want to play a FFA PvP game then killing noobs will happen.  Learn to deal with it or don't play.

    You know, you are right on one point, the replies in threads like this are hysterical.  It is amusing watching the anti-social gankers trying to rationalize their deviant behavior.

     

  • dave6660dave6660 Member UncommonPosts: 2,699

    Originally posted by Squiggie

    ...

    You know, you are right on one point, the replies in threads like this are hysterical.  It is amusing watching the anti-social gankers trying to rationalize their deviant behavior.

    So now anyone who kills a low level player is not only a sociopath, they are also anti-social and a deviant.

    I've been playing Eve for almost 3 years now.  I'm a low sec pirate who tries to kill anyone who enters my home system whether they've been playing for 5 years or 5 minutes.  The alliance I belong to has about 120 players.  How does that equate to being anti-social?  I don't see what is "deviant" about kiling other players in a FFA PvP game.  In my experience it's the carebears who are anti-social, they insist on playing solo and make forum posts demanding CCP change the game mechanics when they die to a fleet of 20 pirates.

    There are so few FFA PvP MMO's on the market why do so many players insist on playing them then complain when you get killed by a high level player?

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • ClassicstarClassicstar Member UncommonPosts: 2,697

    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Originally posted by Leoghan

    Gankers (those who do it all the time) remind me of the classical concept of Beta wolves, it is now outdated and incorrect for wolves, but it works here.

    Beta's want to be the alpha's, but they aren't so they try to act like alpha's but do it mostly by picking on the omega (who in this analogy would be the newbs) to throw their weight around.

    Of course wolves don't show these tendencies in the wild, these were assumptions made of captive wolf packs, but maybe MMOers are more like captive wolf packs than wild ones :-p

    Wow.

    I have honestly never seen this so well put together and explained, you win not only this thread but the entire 10+ year debate.

    Bravo and kudos. I am going to copy/paste this into every thread I see about this issue.

    /win

    And your reply is funny made me laugh.

    I agree on Leoghan explanation also nicely done.

    Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!

    MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
    CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
    GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
    MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
    PSU:Corsair AX1200i
    OS:Windows 10 64bit

  • VidirVidir Member UncommonPosts: 963

    I just wish pvp would happen in different games than those regular mmo.

  • gimmekeygimmekey Member Posts: 117

    This game (SWTOR) aims to appeal to the casual majority as well.  I think the hardcore PvPers are really deluding themselves here.

    I haven't had a good time ganking (and subsequently being ganked) since DarkEden.  The trend seems to spoonfeed everyone victory puree in the form of trivial accomplishments.

    The best we can hope for is further innovation when it comes to structured confrontation.

Sign In or Register to comment.