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Originally posted by Teh_Axi Originally posted by catlana There once was a time when OMG hybred specs existed.
Yeah and all but 2-3 of them where garbage. Like I said before if you're the type that just like spending points with little actual thought or care then obviously you won't like a system of this style. For others that want an optimal character that they can meaningfully tweak, this system does offer that.
Also not being able to make a wrong choice is good in this case because it should mean ALL the talents are good. Personally I don't see how the ability to make a terrible character makes for a good experience or makes the older systems better. The fact is cookie cutter specs exist for a reason, most players want a good character not an "interesting" (ie Bad) one.
In a word, NO. This isn't so much about "protecting" people from making "bad" choices, as it is about making it easier for the Dev's to "balance" the game, and make it appeal to the very *lowest* common denominator. Looking at the proposed talent "choices" its going to end up being EXTREME cookie cutter builds(and a damn few of those at that). Not everyone is interested in the min/max nonsense that raiders worship. Many of the rest of us have builds that fit our play style, and to hell with raiding.
Taking choices away from people to "protect" them, is all too typical of a certain mentality that has spread around the world like the plague that it is. One example of this in terms of the new "talent" system is my sub rogue. I have it set up for extreme burst damage, with some traits from the Assassination and Combat trees to make it more effective in that role. I'm not going to be able to do anything even close to that in this next system.
The same applies to the other classes I have an interest in (I have six 85's an 81 and some 60's and 70's). The idea that less choice is "better" is as I stated, inherent in a certain mentaility that thinks that only the "elite" should be making these choices, and that the peasants should simply follow along and remain silent. Good luck with that...
I've no doubt that partly because of the theme (and the Monk class), and the "gotta catch'em all" nonsense, that this next expansion is likely to go over well in Asia, and with a limited number of those outside of it. The box sales alone will likely cover Blizzards initial costs to produce this. But I suspect that many will be like I am. Disgusted with what Ghostcrawler has done to a game that they have loved for years, and take their time and money to another game. Only time will tell how this works out.
Originally posted by Wraithone In a word, NO.
That was a lot of words used to say absolutely nothing.
The only coherent point was that Sub rogues lose out in this system, which is true but not for any of the reasons you stated. I hardly see how you can spec for "extreme burst damage" in the low teirs of combat either, which just futher undermines your ranting. If you had looked at the info in detail you would be aware that many of the current passive talents will be part of the spec you choose or simply class passives, so no Sub won't lose much beyond utility.
As for the rest of your ranting, if you really think that the themes of this expansion will only be popular in Asia you are quite frankly a complete fool.
Originally posted by Teh_Axi Originally posted by Wraithone In a word, NO.
Believe what you wish. The facts remain the facts, no matter if you comprehend them or not. Its obvious that this new "talent" system isn't designed to make the classes or game more FUN for the majority of the *current* players. Which is a classic symptom of the Ghostcrawler Syndrome.
If you had bothered to examine the details of the current rogue tree (sub especially) you would have seen that its almost all focused on burst damage. That has very great utility in PvP and solo PvE (most fights are over in 2-3 seconds or less).
As for the other, I clearly stated that it would be popular in Asia and with some others outside of that region. If one bothers to look at WoW's player demographics, it would be obvious that Blizzard could lose all of their NA and European players and still have millions and millions of players.
As for the rest, that too is obvious if one bothers to examine the mentaility I spoke of, and its spread over the last generation or so. Choice is a very human activity, and is to be encouraged when ever possible.
Originally posted by Wraithone The facts remain the facts, no matter if you comprehend them or not.
Facts? All you have is poorly thought out ranting and waffling.
Do you really think blizzard is stupid. this is all leading up to a diablo 3 type AH in WOW. and possibly free to play. they're not gonna fire the guy they told to make this expansion, and prepare the way for in-game microtrans for the little kiddies who will play it.
This dude got hired to make it the way they wanted it made. MoP is on purpose and with good reasons since GW2 and TOR are going to North american tag team blizz. plus even though i'm a notorius hater and wrathbaby, i don't think they will fail. most of your comrades are already coming around to the blizz plan.
Someone needed "taken out back" around ToC release.
Originally posted by Wraithone Originally posted by Teh_Axi Originally posted by Wraithone In a word, NO.
I would not worry about fanboi that does not even spend anytime defending his positions. MoP simply continues the elimination of choice out of WoW. Some players will be perfectly fine with not thinking (a great example in this thread). On the other hand, some other players want choice and decision making and so will move on from WoW.
I just want to play a friggen Panda
I voted yes, but it's too early to tell for sure. Let's see how many active subs WoW has 6 months after MOP and compare it to now... then decide for sure.
Should have been fired long long before MOP honestly. In my opinion he has cost Blizzard a lot more money than he has brought in.
Originally posted by catlana I would not worry about fanboi that does not even spend anytime defending his positions.
Haha! Posts packed with so much irony never cease to amuse me.
I dont see why I should repeat myself because people like you like to post baseless nosense without even looking at previous posts. I suppose when all your here to do it rant and make snide comments it doesnt really matter what others post.
Oh and making backhand insults doesn't qualify as backing up an opinion.
In the previous system(cata), you would be hard pressed to make wrong choices either. To the majority, it was very easy to pick out the right talents without following a guide. That's still the same looking at the preview. You'll just want multiple from some tiers and none from others. Which, is a downgrade. As said before, in some hybrids, tiers are for one spec almost exclusively. When all three choices are worse than a second choice in another tier, it's a bad design. It's not equally poorly built for all classes, but some are big problems. Will they change that? Probably not.
People want more meaninful choices. They want choices that matter and can result in good specs. Blizzard won't ever do that though. It would lead to more viables specs for them to try and balance. Which, they are horrible at even with so few viable choices. These new "trees" aren't trees. You aren't really gaining any choice because the #1 talent for you in them is #1. To choose utility is to underperform in your specified role. It's just merely the illusion of choice you are seeing.
There was very little choice in the previous trees. There is little to no choice in these systems either. Little is lost, but NOTHING is gained. It's a small step backwards.
Originally posted by Razeron Someone needed "taken out back" around ToC release. So...
His adjacent blame reallocation skills must be godly.
That picture above is the way I feel about Ghostcrawler.
I havent played Wow in about 5 1/2 years. But back then, the playerbase was actively asking for Pandas whinning about sticking to the "warcraft lore."
It was all over the forums.
Kinda hard to blame Bliz now. Go hunt down the vocal minority forums nerds.
Oh I'll kill him. I'll kill him dead. Like with, with a, rock or something. Like a, like a stone.
Check out my monthly column on MMORPG.com.
Originally posted by paroxysm As said before, in some hybrids, tiers are for one spec almost exclusively. When all three choices are worse than a second choice in another tier, it's a bad design.
I don't really see your point, there are very few teirs in a single class that are directly comparable.
I can't tell if your missing the point or just being obtuse. The purpose isn't to give players complete freedom of choice, Wow has never been about or had that at any point. Sure if the past you could spend your points more freely but most players didn't use specs like that. Honestly I don't know why you people keep bring up "hybrids" because they haven't exsisted since Wrath and quite frankly neither Blizzard or the majority of the player base care.
The idea with this system is that you have your Spec choice, which includes all the "cookie cutter" stuff automatically. Then you have a set of 6 choices, each with a certain theme, that allows you to make adjustments to how your character plays. Now I don't play every class but I don't recall seeing any of the teirs that didn't make a noticeable change, nor do I recall seeing any talents that were only useful to a single spec.
To say choosing utility is to underperform is your specfic role is idiotic because you will have everything you need for that from your spec choice. None of the talents will be required, you choose which you perfer in a similar sense to Glyphs.
Originally posted by Teh_Axi Originally posted by paroxysm As said before, in some hybrids, tiers are for one spec almost exclusively. When all three choices are worse than a second choice in another tier, it's a bad design.
You are not making sense. You act like Wrath was a long time ago. Did you not play before Wrath?
I'll try to say this one last time in the fewest words for you.
Skill trees have never been about real viable choices. Even the oldest ones from Vanilla and TBC. That said, the new systems offer no more choice. They just offer even less choice in a new way. So, again for another expansion, they are not improving.
Look again at some of the "hybrid" new systems (ones with multiple roles/ tank/heal/dps). There are "tiers" with multiple talents that are better for the same spec. In those situations a second choice from a different tier is the better option.
Glyphs are, for the most part, just as cookie cutter as specs. Certain ones are a superior to others of the same kind for your role. The lowest glyphs, with the least impact, offer little choice. But, they sometimes offer choice. They allow those choices because of how low the impact of them is.
I said choosing utility is to underperform because I was comparing utility to essential. By that I mean the best weighted talent. Which the new system will have. Ergo, the cookie cutter spec. To choose utility over that is to underperform at your role. To gain something you like but benefits you less.
Before and up to the start of Wrath, there was more choice. Not a lot, but more. Cata was when the real prune came and this expansion is just giving that a new look with even less choices to make.
WoW has lots of problems where blizzard needs to step in and fix things.
WoW older races look old compared to Gobo's / Worgen and even Dranei / Bloodelf's
To many class changes and nerf's
To many talent changes and nerf
Each class is getting more of the same stuff
Healers are almost the same - big heal / medium heal / small heal
Blizzard should focus on these things before pressing another expansion out.
Developer team doesnt look or ask question on Europeans or doesnt even communicate with us -_-
The biggest problem is Ghostcrawler, and let me give you 1 example of his bias.
Since cataclysm the feral druid and warrior class have gotten some key ability's nerfed real hard, he himself plays a frostmage wich is so retardedly overpowerd and people begged for balance.
1 Frost Mage can keep so many people frozen and cc'd that you gotte wonder why this aint nerfed hard....
When doing arena your looking at crowd control periods of 30 to 40 seconds in a row .
Evry class has 1 interupt or more and add crowd control to their arsenal and you can see how frustrating it can be to do some pvp.
The vicious circle of rerolling wich strategy was implemented from launch is still the same. (FotM)
Armor sets are uninsprired compared to those in Vanila and TBC.
I can go on and on but i will save you the cheese that go with the whine
Seeing MoP is being developd wich has very little lore and lots of players disliking panda's as a playeble race aint good enough also.
Its a 50/50 love or hate it wich might hold a bad sign for Blizzard new Xpac.
Like the DK in WotLK wich was grossly OP so will the Monk be.
The vicious circle of rerolling wich strategy was implemented from launch is still the same.
Make people reroll and invest more time in wow.
This is my personal vieuw after playing wow for 6/7 years and by no means iam right about all my points or comments.
I would have expected a massive expansion that blow away 80% of the fans and playerbase, but MoP is not doing that.
It divides the playerbase into half and make the game even 1 step easier yet again.
The dumbing down the game for 8 year old kids is asking alot of the players who like some uniqueness in talents and playstyle.
This is gone for a big part and in MoP evry1 will have the same spec or playstyle.
Add the Pokemon stuff and your looking at a game who already has the highest young audiance of any mmo.
Most of these kids do nothing bad bashing other players in battlegrounds or dungeons.
Its no fun to get geared and these kids make it so much worse and try to bash you into the ground or vote a kick the second it can be done.
WoW's community has died a long time ago and what is left is emptyness, the mail me the epics in the mailbox people that realy dislike working hard for it.
Imagen Panda's and Pokemon implemented soon
It will attract young audiance for sure.
Older players who dislike panda's and pokemon will walk away.
Add SWtor / GW2 and perhaps in a year Archage and you see what ghostcrawler has caused.
WoW is losing ground with that man in the lead.
Jeff Kapplan did a much better job in that regard.
Time will tell, but man WoW is not building on their succes , they have lost direction and vision and maybe they are panicking whit what is on the horizon ?
Time will tell ^^
Originally posted by OkhamsRazor Love it or hate it the facts are Mists of Pandaria has caused a huge amount of negativity on the internet . In the event the expansion underperforms in terms of units sold should Greg Street be fired from his job as lead systems designer of World of Warcraft .
No, he is making blizzard a lot of money. The game doesnt revolve around real MMO players anymore its now a family game, the kids will cherish the panda thing so will the girl gamers, another market they have tapped into. Blizzard are thinking outside the box.
Quote: No, he is making blizzard a lot of money. The game doesnt revolve around real MMO players anymore its now a family game, the kids will cherish the panda thing so will the girl gamers, another market they have tapped into. Blizzard are thinking outside the box.
Thats one of the smartest comments ever, reguarding MOP.. People fail to see that WoW has really gotten too big for Blizz and of course they don't mind becuase it brings the doe in.. Blizz knows that WoW won't ever retain a high player base number but they sure as hell don't want that number to dwindle too fast, so in doing so try to open the game up to other type of players.
Blizz isn't really forcing anyone to buy the xpac or have to play the panda race. But if it brings in 100k New player to WoW, its all good..
I personally don't find the panda thing a big deal... Hell people were asking Naga's to be a playable race, so blizz quell that part by letting you could control them in a Cata quest line.. Hell Taurens are cows and that didn't get a backlash as panda.
Also, I think this expansion is like and inter-mission / hold over for blizz. seeing there is not Major Boss bent on destruction to set out to kill..
Why are we firing the Systems Design Lead for the choice of expansion theme again? Has this been explained?
I'd hate to think we were all simple enough that we honestly just picked one of the more public faces of the company and totally misunderstood what role he plays.
Unless the new talent system angers you that much I suppose....
Originally posted by namelessbob Should have been fired long long before MOP honestly. In my opinion he has cost Blizzard a lot more money than he has brought in.
I agree, except that i don't think it's about the money he has cost Blizzard. They still got all the money in the world.
He should have been fired long ago about the reputation he has cost Blizzard. Looking back through the years you barely find an unpopular, at times upsetting and bare of any logic decision made in WoW which doesn't have Idiotcrawlers signature underneath it.
Originally posted by VoIgore Originally posted by namelessbob Should have been fired long long before MOP honestly. In my opinion he has cost Blizzard a lot more money than he has brought in.
Do you think it's at all ironic that you should post this in a thread proposing the dimissal of him for the choice of expansion, when that isn't his job or role in the company at all? It's almost like if something bad happens, people just choose the most public figure within the company....
Originally posted by paroxysm Glyphs are, for the most part, just as cookie cutter as specs.
Glyphs as they are don't really give you many choices at the moment, that is true but its also something they acknowledged at Blizzcon. The reason I mentioned it is because the idea behind them is essentially the same, that is players are given a set of possible options that can be changed somewhat on the fly.
As I have said already, I don't see the ability to make a bad character as giving the player more choice. All it gives is the freedom to make mistakes, not the freedom to make a viable character. With this new system you can at least have some impact on how you play without giving up your build also being optimal.
Also your still missing the point, the idea behind is each teir is that its a significant decision. You're not supposed to be able to choose all three of the same teir, they have a similar theme because you are only supposed to have one of them.