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I blame both, but primarily game design.
People are always in a hurry. Hurry to work, hurry to get the job complete, hurry to get home. If you can pack a little more into you accomplishments for the day, then you get a bigger chunk of the pie, you just have to hurry.
Game design gives rewards for time played and efforts given, driving people to the same mentality. I want to have that awesome outfit/armor so I just have to get this much done. I want to have that cool ability so I just have to get this much done. I want to have that cool acheivement/title so I just have to get this much done. Problem is that by the time the average person can put in enough efforts to get to that point, the reward is common because all the average people now have it too. So you need to be better then average. You need to get it first, so at least then you can have that moment in the sun where you attained something worthy. So you'd better hurry. No time to talk, got to get this done. No time to be polite, or help out the noobs. No time to put up with the idiot that doesn't know the dungeon, he's wasting your time!! Definately no time to waste on trying to find someone that is fun to group with and socialize with, faster just to do it solo.
This is what we call playing. As a kid (the true masters of playing) I would just look around for something to climb, or something to jump over, or some mud to splat. I was there just taking in the day, and doing whatever struck my fancy at that moment. My mom would call to me and ask me what I was doing. "Just playing mom!" I wasn't working towards having that new thing, or working at being first, I was just playing.
Imagine a virtual world that was truly amazing, something like in the movie Avatar. Now imagine that this game allowed you to make you character exactly as you wanted, right off the bat. You didn't have a single quest, there were no levels and no superiority. All you did in the game, was play. See if you can jump from this tree to that one. Hop onto your dragon(?) and fly around for a while, see if you can lose that other person thats chasing you. Take some time riding a 6 legged horse through the jungle. Maybe go hunting and see if you can take down some ferocious beast.
Would you play a game like that? Would you play a game to just play? I think I would. I think that if the game developers would try and bring back the "play" into gameplay that the social aspects would follow suit. But for now we'd better hurry up and get our quests/leveling/looting done.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
It seems to ME that everyones in a rush to get to max level,and if YOU are not,then no one wants to group with you/be social (as an example)
I think its the design, MMORPG's lately have been becoming more and more soloable, WoW is a prime example you can get to 85 never talking to another player once. If you want a mmorpg to be social you have to make forced grouping pretty much, since most people will just solo if they can. FF11 used to be one of the best examples of this, your rep mattered because most people only had/needed 1 char, and in the past solo was do able but it was EXTREMLY slow, so most would socialize and team up. Now a days? most people solo till a certan level then team up for endgame, its bascally become like world of warcraft minus the quests. Abbysea is where the good xp is at, you can go from lv 30 (the min to get in there) to level 99 in half a day or less. They then made solo in the old lands much better where a same lv monster will give 200 exp (insted of 100 exp) and anything below usually gives 100-180. Bascally doubled the exp, then they made the quest books where u kill certan enemies then u get a exp reward, not have its 1 quest per vana'diel day limit (1 vana'diel day is about 1 hour real time). SO you can just spam the books solo or even in a duo and lv fairly quickly. I subbed then found this out and quit, because the only real draw ff11 had for me was the fact your forced to group to level. Because it was like one of the last mmo's on the planet that was like that.
RIP FF11. You were fun till your maker ruined you *teardrop*
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
I think it's both, but it's mostly the game designs fault.
Using WoW as an anecdotal example, it's not that the game design isn't supporting social behavior in my opinion. In-fact, I'd go so far as to say it's discouraging it.
As some have pointed out, you can get to 85 without saying anything to anyone in the game. It stands to reason that the overwhelming majority of players do just that since there's so much emphasis on getting to maxed level and solo'ing is the fastest way to get to 85. If you had someone with you, you would need to adjust to their leveling pace meaning you'd need to sync quests and then stay synced throughout questing. You'd inherently be going as fast as the slowest member of the group. And that's if you've already known the person and arranged to quest together. Multiple of my friends have even rejected me, saying that they like to do quests alone because they can go at their own pace.
Then there's people you don't know who're in the explorable world. There's been a number of times where people I've asked to quest with have refused my offer because they were already 10-15 minutes into a dungeon queue wait, and didn't want to start over. This led to me being infuriated because the only reason I'd offered was because we were on the same quest, and hence were fighting for the same resources. A quantity of said resources which seems to only support 1 player 90% of the time. And, on the off occurence that someone did accept my offer, we maybe had one or two quests the same, but the rest were totally unsynced because either of us had progressed farther in different chains than the other and it was a lot of hassle to sync up to eachother just to run into the same problem with continuing to play with that other player later. Questing's just a terrible content type for social gameplay or, at least, the way WoW handled it.
Then there's the 5 man dungeon finders themselves which are so painfully boring and facerollable that I'd have thought people would jump at the chance to start a conversation. Everytime I join a 5 man, I try to start up a conversation even when I'm in the middle of tanking or healing. To be fair, a couple times I did make a friend that way and added to real ID because they were on a different server, but we don't even talk to eachother that much because it's just that: We're on different servers. Different servers you'd need to pay Blizzard to interact with the people on. And at the same time, the vast majority of the people get annoyed or say they're "too busy fighting" to talk while doing the dungeon anyway. No one needs to communicate to other players at all in the 5 man dungeons, so why should they? They just go about their business filling the very simple trinity roles required to complete the content.
The only harbors for social interaction is with guilds, it seems. And even then, it depends on the players because nothing in the game actively encourages you to socialize or play with the people in your guild unless you're level 85, but to it's credit, having the guild progression and perk system was probably the smartest thing Blizzard did in the way of socializing because it gave everyone in the guild a common goal to work towards with achievements/perks and such and familiarizes players with their guildies. And even then, that has a downfall since it incentivizes players to join older, larger guilds instead of allowing new ones to grow. It's like giving capital [money] to big business and taking capital from local store owners, because that's exactly what players are in a guild: capital. Aside from that though, I have a level 56 Druid in a friendly level 16 guild, and I've met a bunch of friends in that one. But my level 85 Paladin, who's on a seperate server, is in a level 25 guild, and all the time I'm trying to start conversations in guild chat to no avail. Heck, no one even wants to do heroics with me ever because I'm mDPS and not a tank or healer. So many players are so concerned about selfishly pursuing their own ends that there's not enough time for friendly chat and that makes me pretty angry.
TL;DR: This is from my experience, but I definitely think, while a combination of both, it's definitely the fault of the developers who don't incentivize social gameplay and instead, have features that actively discourage it.
Originally posted by Creslin321 Whether you prefer the old school MMORPG style or the new, I think that everyone can agree that newer MMORPGs have made a definitive move towards becoming less social. Whereas players used to form communities, conduct trade, and group up for PvE; players now compete for quest goals while soloing and rush through dungeons with random people. So my question is, what is the main factor behind this shift? Some argue that it's because the "new generation" of players are just not interested in being social and have a "gimme now" mentality. While others argue that the games themselves necessitate less social behavior due to things like quest-node leveling and dungeon finder. So what is your opinion on the issue? Please answer the poll and tell us why you feel that way.
I strongly disagree.
Chat box is still in game for people to use.
Some game options have VIOP option.
Mumble, Ventrillo, TeamSpeak, Skype made it convenient for folks to socialize and still play while doing it rather than just typing.
If you guys are so geared on how folks have stopped socializing in MMORPG, just take out the MMO, and take a good look how RPG's have evolved over time. Yes, those many all nighters that you and your friends playing your favorite TABLETOP RPG.
Geez, some folks need to get a f-in clue, has nothing to do with game design, people just have better options to socialize with others, rather than just type everything out in a chat box.
"Lenny Cole: There's no school like old school, and I'm the fucking headmaster." RocknRolla
Originally posted by Creslin321 Originally posted by lizardbones Originally posted by Paradigm68 Well I think it can be safely said that humans haven't changed dramatically over the course of the last decade but you can demonstrably point out how mmo's have shifted focus away from game dynamics that encourage positive player interaction. So I say the games are at fault.
Imagine two scenarios...
Scenario 1: You are placed in a room with 3 other people, you are all asked to work together to solve a puzzle and when you're done, you'll all get $50.
Scenario 2: You are placed in a room with 3 other people. There are two boxes in the room and each box contains one ticket. If you retrieve the ticket you get $50 and can leave. After a ticket is taken, it takes 1 hour for a new box with a ticket to appear.
Which scenario do you think would make for a better social experience?
Scenario 2 is basically what quest MMORPGs are like. There are a bunch of people that have to compete for limited resources, and they know if they don't get the resource before the other guy, they will be stuck waiting for it to respawn.
Lizardbones still made a valid point!
The population of MMORPG players is no where near what it was then. If anything it's a pretty significant gap. You are getting more of the same folks.
Socilalizing is still there.
Originally posted by Slowdoves Originally posted by Creslin321 Originally posted by lizardbones Originally posted by Paradigm68 Well I think it can be safely said that humans haven't changed dramatically over the course of the last decade but you can demonstrably point out how mmo's have shifted focus away from game dynamics that encourage positive player interaction. So I say the games are at fault.
@Creslin - what you described is exactly the way I think of old MMO"s like EQ (Which I still play actually). A bunch of people competing for limited resources (spawns) and they know if they don't get the spawn (resource) before the other guy they will be stuck waiting for it to respawn. IMO modern MMO's did away with this due to instances.
I just want to smash your face. I don't want to butter you up, I don't want to taunt you I just want to /dance over your corpse.
'Nuff said. You feal me bro?
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One has lead to the other that's for sure.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at one's character in the face of logic and reason- Me
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So running groups with new people is less social then sticking with the same people every single time you play day in and out. Your thread dosnt make sence to me, sorry.
Im one to post meaningfull stuff when people make a thread they think is on topic worth discussing and I So frigin hate when people shit all over my threads so so much, so very so much but I played wow for 3 years and never did I join a guild. Why, cause I like to meet new people and play PUG groups, i thought it kept what vinallia wow had going special for those untill they started adding x-pacs.
Its all how you preceive things, some people may think your reasoning is sound in its logic but it goes against my 3 years of playing wow.
Originally posted by Slowdoves Originally posted by Creslin321 Whether you prefer the old school MMORPG style or the new, I think that everyone can agree that newer MMORPGs have made a definitive move towards becoming less social. Whereas players used to form communities, conduct trade, and group up for PvE; players now compete for quest goals while soloing and rush through dungeons with random people. So my question is, what is the main factor behind this shift? Some argue that it's because the "new generation" of players are just not interested in being social and have a "gimme now" mentality. While others argue that the games themselves necessitate less social behavior due to things like quest-node leveling and dungeon finder. So what is your opinion on the issue? Please answer the poll and tell us why you feel that way.
It might be true that the very chatty people i used to bump into all the time while playing the older mmos are still there but chatting on vent. It's possible. I don't believe it personally. I think they mostly drifted off to the social games because they've been designed out. However can't know for sure either way.
However again, over the same time period of wow's growth there's been a huge growth in social games and there's now apparently more ex wow subscribers than subscribers. So, what percentage of the people playing those social games (which aren't social games really - they're simple games that can be played while socializng on facebook) could be lured into games like wow if they were designed to be more friendly to socializers? i think maybe 10-15% but that's just a guess.
I'd say both,but its mostly a design flaw of MMO's today..
Games like Everquest,people were more vocal and group oriented becuase you had to be if you were going to get anywhere in that game..
A game like Rift,you dont have to say a single word from start to finish just about.You can basically do everything on your own with the exception of raids.
I see it as the player base adapting to the margins of the game,if they dont need to group or interact with any other player,then why bother?
It's almost entirely the players. Yes, games don't encourage social interaction, but games mirror the wants of the players, not the other way around. Designers are out to make money, therefore they give the players what they want. That means more solo play, less manditory social interaction, etc. If the players wanted social interaction, the games would provide it.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots moreRelatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots moreNow Playing: NoneHope: None
Originally posted by Cephus404 It's almost entirely the players. Yes, games don't encourage social interaction, but games mirror the wants of the players, not the other way around. Designers are out to make money, therefore they give the players what they want. That means more solo play, less manditory social interaction, etc. If the players wanted social interaction, the games would provide it.
Games are providing it but outside of mmos.
Now there might be two totally separate types of people, that's one option. A second option is there's an overlap but the socializer-gamers got pushed out because they're not as dedicated to forum pvp as the achiever-gamers.
I disagree here. Designers design systems that they think players want, and then they need to wait and see if the player base actually embraces things or not. There have been so many things that seemed like great designs on paper, that completely flopped once they hit the player base.
Wow was successful for many reasons. It ran on old computers which was great for Asian markets. It was much more soloable and in general easier to use. The world was large, and Blizzard has always had a large fan base who would try most of their games, ensuring that players would at least give it a shot. Due to WoW's success, a lot of companies cloned those concepts and design because they felt it was the safest route to go. The games that have experimented with more radical features in recent years have primarily flopped. Even though no WoW-clone has reached Wow's numbers it still seems like the safest route for developers to take in most cases. And as a result, you see games that tried to Out-WoW it, making things even easier. Even more solo friendly. Yet none of them has had the same level of sucess.
The bottom line is that if someone comes out with an idea that is successful, people will clone it. That does not necessarily mean that is what the player base wants. If you look at a ton of polls from MMORPG fans in the past year, a lot of people want more difficulty. They want more group content. They want less kill X quests. But we'll keep seeing most of the games stick with a WoW style format until something else comes along with a new approach that is successful, then we'll see games start cloning that.
https://www.therepopulation.com - Sci Fi Sandbox.
It started with the players, the designers just ran with it and not enough people have complained with there wallets to turn it back the other way or people just dont want games returning to mostly social/group play
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Originally posted by Ramonski7 I know a lot of you want to take the easy way out and blame the tools we use for our collective behavior. But when did developers start removing grouping features like quest requiring parties or difficult mobs that needed more than one person to kill? Last time I checked all of those things are still in most mmorpgs. No I think what we are seeing is a reflection of a behavior that has been practiced by all of us from the moment we enter school til we retire from the workforce. I mean how often have you walked into a school lunchroom and seen everybody socializing with everyone else? Or been at work where everyone hangs with everyone? I'd like to see a show of hands where any of you loved the popular kid/adult. You know, the one that got along with everyone. By our very nature we tend to break off and form smaller social circles when in large numbers. The problem for most of us came from the moment our particular habit (mmorpgs) became more like a school than a after school D&D session. Now all of a sudden mmorpgs are not as intimate as they use to be. Part of this is due to cheaper technology and part is the idea of those younger siblings we has that watched us at our D&D sessions with our friends and mimicking that same mentality in current mmos. Look at a playground from a kid's perspective and you'll see he having a good ol time with a few of his buddies. But look at it from a parents perspective and all of a sudden you are looking at several "groups" of kids that looks like a huge jumbled mess of arms and legs flashing about. This is what I tend to identify with. A large group of players all having their own social circles that just happen to be playing in the same park. I mean think about it...from playgrounds to lunchrooms to workplaces we've been breaking into smaller groups and socializing well before mmorpgs came along...only thing different now is that mmorpgs finally have big enough player bases that we can break into groups once again. So if we are not socializing, it's only because we ourselves have not found suitable playmates we can clique with.
Again, someone with another great point.
Very well said sir.
I too thought it was between "Game Design" and "Both, but mostly game design".
I'm surprised to see I'm in the majority!
It's unfortunate: in modern MMOs, it's as if fellow players are dispensable coins to put in a slot so that the machine can churn out epics. Gone is respect and gone is appreciation for each other.
I experienced this in WoW, then RIFT, and in AoC (currently playing it).
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I need to take this advice more.
I voted players, because the majority of players in MMOs have gotten to the point. To where they don't like to help other players, it's mostly about them. Once they have gotten their loot or quest done or whatever, it's like they say the hell with everyone else. A lot of players have gotten it in their heads, that if they help someone else they fell like they are carrying them. Or certain groups of players want to force their style of playing on others, so you get players that would rather solo and do their own thing and just avoid that drama altogether. I don't blame the devs I blame the players because of their selfish attitudes, just look at all of the threads in any MMO games forums, and see how players make fun of others for clicking and keyboard turning. Or those that kick players from there groups for not knowing a boss encounter. Gone are the days of helpful players willing to help out a noob and set them on the right track, or others willing to teach a bad player so that they can become a good player.
As tempting as it is for me to say that it's both, I'd say game design. Game design simply for the fact that players will play and progress the way you intend them to go. If it's easier for you to venture on your own and not even say a word to anyone on the server, then why would you group up or seek the services of another player? This becomes more apparent if the design has enabled a character to have high abilities in alot of disparate roles in the game.
Remember, there are MMORPGs out there, with at least another coming very soon (a very big name one I might add), that has NPCs that you can acquire, develop, outfit, select their skillsets, and determine their Party AI Roles. You can get them to fill out your own "Party." That's right. Group up with yourself... in a "Massive Multiplayer Role Playing Game."
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
"Why have MMORPGs become less social?"
1) The players are less concerned with socializing. This collection of boards is testament to that. People discuss the themepark and sandbox features of MMOs endlessly here but when someone suggests socializing or interacting with others outside of grouping mechanics, the response is often that they can just go use IRC if they want to chat. As a matter of fact, that is the EXACT answer that the OP gave just two days ago:
It's funny because there was a thread for "why are you interested in MMORPGs?" And one poster said that they were interested because MMORPGs let them chat with people while they played...
Couldn't this just be accomplished by integrating an IRC client into a regular RPG? - Creslin321 ( link )
2) The developers are still relying on old tools for communication. The tools that a gamer uses in his day to day life are simply not present or under-developed in MMOs. Where are the up-to-the-minute feeds, image and video sharing, player-defined groups outside of the guild unit, in-game browsers, email that doesn't require seeking out a physical mailbox?
3) Great tools are no longer used because people are jackasses. Don't allow player written content because someone will scribble hate-filled garbage on it. Don't allow placing items on the ground because people will make penises and swastikas with it. Once policing and support becomes a burden, the feature gets dropped. For most developers, providing other content that doesn't require additional babysitting is a much more desirable path to go.
In games where players have the tools to express themselves and create within the game world, players engage in sharing work, travelling to see the work of others, and take part in collaborative works. Tools for creativity foster interaction.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That's one of several major reasons why modern MMOS seem to be built in a vacuum, separated from how real life people socialize. MMOs need to provide tools to allowpeople to find their circle of like-minded individuals.
Lol its funny how most think its game design omg how hypocrit this is.
Its mainly gamers fault already started with UO 14 years ago slowly they show how they want there games to be and devs just accomidate what gamers want this progress was going rapidly faster after WoW was released and now we have a almost anti social community that all exclusively game in there clan/guild and avoid every contact or action outside there clan/guild.
Nobody trust nobody becouse of all kill steal ninja looting we had years ago so developers made game that excist today that we all know, with almost personal instance or progess in games where you dont have to deal with anybody anymore, but this only happend becouse of YOU GAMERS that forced developers to make this GAME DESIGN we have today so your all happy and you still all keep whining lol.
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