Funny article, but I disagree with the cause and effect. Let's reverse it. If there were less Bastishes in MMOs, there would be less reason to restrict free will.
Odd way of looking at it, what is the point of free will if you cannot go against the grain?
The article is spot on, but prepare for people straight away crying "grief" without even reading it.
I agree with your statement and thats also the big problem these days.
I agree 100% with article.
Most whiners and crybabys will never understand this way of playing anyway.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
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You would totally hate my world. No Player Looting (or Player Killing for that matter..I know ZMOG!! NO PVP!! sorry not here..)
The monsters in the world are perfectly capable of killing you without help from players.
Looking for a good time with no B.S? come back to the best MMO ever made (and the most customizable) Neverwinter Nights - The First Edition.
Cheers
It was a great game, but not really a MMO. 128 players on each servers is just too small, it is a MORPG, not a MMORPG.
I wish Bioware could get back the FR license and remake this game, it is one of the few oold games good enough for that.
As for Cryptics version, I am at least glad their new owners took them in the ear and forced them to mave back the game a year and actually release something that is close to complete this time.
If im correctly AoC alos have MAX 50 players on one server clone so you never wil see more then 50 players or you have to go to other clone server. So NWN with 128 is more a mmo then AoC but AoC is a mmorpg?
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
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Unconditional freedom is an illusion. Real world societies do not operate in this manner and so wouldn't game societies. You need rules, laws, and policies to contain the people, especially in cases where real forms of punishment are merely superficial or redundant at best. Man, devoid of society's grasp, reveals its true nature and, unshackled by organization, is led to disruption, chaos, and absolute anarchy.
Absolute freedom is an illusion. Real world societies do not operate in this manner and so wouldn't game societies. You need rules, laws, and policies to contain the people, especially in cases where real forms of punishment are merely superficial or redundant at best. Man, devoid of society's grasp, reveals its true nature and, unshackled by organization, is led to disruption, chaos, and absolute anarchy.
Agreed, absolute freedom is a terrible goal for a MMORPG to have, especially if trying to develop a decent world simulation.
Real world has laws, police, severe penalties that even then struggle to keep the barbarian inside mankind in check, so in a game world with no real consequence how much more challenging is it for a developer to keep the baser instincts in check and prevent everything from devolving into chaos?
I suppose you could create a "policeman" class, which was substantially stronger than the average Pker, had the right to pursue and hunt down criminals with tools not normally at the disposal of the average pker, and the consequences for pking should be the same as in the real world, long term incararation or even character death.
Who really wants to take the time to design a game like that, too much effort and one finds that most people who claim to be griefers and pkers really don't have the stomach to face real in game risk, they make sure the odds are strongly in their favor in almost every situation. (which is smart I'll agree, but certainly no fun for the victim)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Kyleran one finds that most people who claim to be griefers and pkers really don't have the stomach to face real in game risk, they make sure the odds are strongly in their favor in almost every situation. (which is smart I'll agree, but certainly no fun for the victim)
I think in many cases that is true.
The few times I located and pk'ed former attackers I found them to be crying, whiny little kids. going off on rants, swearing, making threats that they would make my life miserable, etc. when they found me I was completley unaware and as is the case with some of these games, at times it only takes a few hits to push you into "you lose" territory.
Not in every case but they are there.
They just be joys in "real life".
still, there are pk'ers who are decent people and who add a bit of fun to open world pvp. They are respectful, react with "ah yeah, you got me" and in genreal act more in line with the spirit of these games being "games".
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Absolute freedom is an illusion. Real world societies do not operate in this manner and so wouldn't game societies. You need rules, laws, and policies to contain the people, especially in cases where real forms of punishment are merely superficial or redundant at best. Man, devoid of society's grasp, reveals its true nature and, unshackled by organization, is led to disruption, chaos, and absolute anarchy.
Games are made by DEVELOPERS they annouce the game and it get followers right?
So when those followers know what game is, it seems to me when they start playing they agree on terms that game have right?
If the game have FREE FOR ALL(i think we all understand what that means right?) and you still starting to play and you accept those rules you can't complain about harsh PVP right?
But lets start with game thats no longer, but where i started to hate all whiners and crybabys who wanne be left alone while pve and hated gankers/pkers.
Game is called Asherons call 2 it had regular PVE white serves with some areas where you could PVP like palisade region, and you had plenty of choice in US and EUROPE to choose your white server.
But you had one FREE FOR ALL server called DARKTIDE only ONE everybody knew it was a hardcore PVP(AND NOT EVEN WITH FULL LOOT) witch means in Asherons call 2 no safezone at all. Did not matter if you entered towns or dungeons its was all OPEN PVP.
So all who choose to play on such server SHOULD NEVER whine or cry about been corpse camped or ganked or that there dugeon run is ruined when your fight BOSS for example. If you complain about FREE FOR ALL PVP choose a white server right or am i wrong tell me?
Nobody force you to play such servers with hardcore pvp right?
But NOOO... still people who keep crying and crying about harsh pvp becouse pkers/gankers did not leave them alone lol what a losers i say, dont make a toon then on server like that right?
The good thing about AC2 was it still had a decent ANTI vs RPK community on Darktide and ANTI many times protected the newbees and the weak and hunt down Pkers. Players made there own politics and most of time it worked when notorious players keep ganking lowbees ANTI came in to help them.
But thats how it slowly started people made a toon on FREE FOR ALL pvp server but still expected a WHITE safezone server WTF:(
Result is we have now mainly uber protective games with instance and bullshit BG or ARENAS for those who can't take real hardcore PVP.
Its sad but now only few games left like Darkfall and its empty becouse most hate the ganking or hardcore gameplay bah:(
One of reasons why i almost dont play MMO'S anymore is becouse of this attitude people have agains my favorite genre FREE FOR ALL FULL LOOT PVP and its dying:(
And you can't attacke me for this, becouse i was pure ANTI always helped weak and newbees and hunt down evil pk. But that was the whole fun pk/gankers attacked anybody they saw and ANTI fight those who disrupt the peace thats makes it fun and EXCITING.
@ Above poster what your saying is absolutely not true ive played sinds '99 mainly hardcore free for all pvp mmo's and ive for most time met pkers who dont cry more then the avarage white server leave me alone crybabys and whiners sure some maybe cryed and only take on lowbees but on Darktide that was for most part not the case.
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the "problem" is not specific MMOs. "problem" are players. when players have different set of assumptions and expectation, no game system EVER will make all players happy. on the other side, when player do have same assumptions and expectations, the game system is irrelevant. that's why role-playing is primarily a cooperative experience, and it stands somewhat opposed to traditional gaming, which is competitive.
that's not to stay that role-players can't role-play "competition", but it's essential that resulting narrative will be acceptable to both sides. on the other hand, gamers can take on specific role, but it's not more than a flavor toward their desired goal.
in other words, it's not who's right or wrong, but what who wants what. more different games... for everyone!
While developers do indeed decide how to formulate their game and how the rules are going to operate, in order for a meaningful, persistent, and healthy online community to develop and prosper, one needs laws, rules, and policies. You can't give freedom to the extent that the players can decide and do anything. Such does not work in the real world with actual punishments and would most definitely not work in an online environment, defined by its anonymosity and lack of real consequence. If you do not create a set of parameters that essentially limit what the character can do, uncategorically there will be no organization whatsoever. I suggest you read a rather famous novel called The Heart of Darkness, which deals a lot with how human nature operates without the constrictions of society.
Funny article, but I disagree with the cause and effect. Let's reverse it. If there were less Bastishes in MMOs, there would be less reason to restrict free will.
Odd way of looking at it, what is the point of free will if you cannot go against the grain?
The same point of me not going out and killing a bunch of random people, then burying their bodies in random locations just because I might get away with it? You don't have to be a seriel killer to go against the grain, in real life or in games.
Errrr isnt that what we do in MMOs every single day?.. ok sometimes its animals.. and more often than not they are computer controlled and not player controlled.. But 99% of all MMO and a great deal of other computer games are about killing stuff in droves.
Your analogy is a complete equivocation. There is no person on the other end of the game happily playing as the digital rat just moving about in a field.
Back to the topic at hand. Open world PvP with real consequences is extremely niche because most players don't have the time to keep up with elitePKninjarzxxx. How many people play Mortal Online? Hell how many people played UO? Take the agregate of the gaming community and you will see that the vast majority has already voted with their dollar away from that type of system.
A simple solution to the authors desire for that feeling of "I could be attacked at any moment" would be to play games with RvR. It consolidates a large audience of people that like this in their game without ruining the fun other people have in the game. The problem isn't that there's not enough "free will" as the author puts it, the problem with MMOs today is that they follow the same, tired game design troupes: Questing is repetitive, gear grinds > skill, nothing in the world is very dynamic or changing.
Hopefully GW2 can help re-energize this stagnant genre.
Absolute freedom is an illusion. Real world societies do not operate in this manner and so wouldn't game societies. You need rules, laws, and policies to contain the people, especially in cases where real forms of punishment are merely superficial or redundant at best. Man, devoid of society's grasp, reveals its true nature and, unshackled by organization, is led to disruption, chaos, and absolute anarchy.
Games are made by DEVELOPERS they annouce the game and it get followers right?
So when those followers know what game is, it seems to me when they start playing they agree on terms that game have right?
If the game have FREE FOR ALL(i think we all understand what that means right?) and you still starting to play and you accept those rules you can't complain about harsh PVP right?
But lets start with game thats no longer, but where i started to hate all whiners and crybabys who wanne be left alone while pve and hated gankers/pkers.
I think what some folks are saying is that just because a game ALLOWS you to do something, doesn't mean you should do it. If it was no longer illegal to kill people in real life, you wouldn't suddenly start seeing everybody jumping and stabbing total strangers when they turn their back. While early MMO developers expected there to be some conflict, I doubt they figured on so many d-bags making griefing into a gaming career. What was once intended to be the ultimate freedom in RP, was pretty much diminished to, "yeah... this guy's still hurt from fighting that panther. Time to get my gank on".
Lastly Mr. Kayatta doesn't seem to want free will. He just wants to be a dick to people who don't want to be treated that way. He apparently doesn't want to go to Mortal Online or Darkfall, 2 games that would give him exactly what he wants. WOW has PvP servers. TOR will have PvP servers. AoC has PvP servers, including a brand new one with all kinds of wide open PvP rules...
But that's not what he wants.
He wants to be able to go to LotRO, find a guy playing lute in the Prancing Pony, and take 'em out and teabag his corpse before the guy can even arm himself. He's not interested in playing against like minded people, because there are games where those like minded people gather and play just like he does. Nope.
He just wants to be a dick, and UMADBRO just doesn't have the same impact against a willing participant.
I think what some folks are saying is that just because a game ALLOWS you to do something, doesn't mean you should do it. If it was no longer illegal to kill people in real life, you wouldn't suddenly start seeing everybody jumping and stabbing total strangers when they turn their back.
Actually, I highly disagree with this. If killing were made legal, you would see the number of homicides, assassinations, and murders increase uncontrollably. It would become a free for all. If you had a family to support, and no money to do so, you would go steal from a groceries store. The store clerk would deny your assault, you would kill him, and that would be the end of it. There would be no stability, everything would be chaotic and we would tear each other apart.
I think what some folks are saying is that just because a game ALLOWS you to do something, doesn't mean you should do it. If it was no longer illegal to kill people in real life, you wouldn't suddenly start seeing everybody jumping and stabbing total strangers when they turn their back.
Actually, I highly disagree with this. If killing were made legal, you would see the number of homicides, assassinations, and murders increase uncontrollably. It would become a free for all. If you had a family to support, and no money to do so, you would go steal from a groceries store. The store clerk would deny your assault, you would kill him, and that would be the end of it. There would be no stability, everything would be chaotic and we would tear each other apart.
While I agree with that on some level, I don't think that the increase in homicides would be permanent. The laws in our societies which prohibit murder came about due to the need for human beings to rely upon each other to survive. Or, at least, to make surviving much easier. Although there may be an increase in homicide for a short time, eventually this would stabilize as people learn first-hand exactly why murder was made illegal in the first place. Sure, you could kill the grocer in order to feed your family, but keep in mind that that grocer's larder will eventually empty, and you'll be no better off than you were before. Further, if the rest of the community also relies on that grocer for their food, they'll be pissed at the fact that you've killed him and will likely do something about it (kill you right back, perhaps?). The laws that keep people in check were formed out of the interdependence of individuals in civilized society; removing federal law which prohibits murder wouldn't have an effect on that interdependence.
The problem with MMOs, as I view it, is the slow loss of this interdependence among players. In most games today its entirely possible, if you want, to get to max level on your own. Increasingly more options are being provided for those who wish to continue to play by themselves at end-game. Even the options that force you to interact (dungeon finders, scenario/battleground queues, etc.) allow you to interact cross-server in order to streamline the process. While this may be all well and good, it destroys any semblance of a society or a community within these games, and that is where the anarchy comes from.
If you want my opinion on how to fix it, do this. Increase the freedom people have in game. Let them kill people or be an asshat as often as they'd like. But also increase the difficulty of levelling content. Make the game require positive, cooperative, amicable interaction between players in order to advance. Of course, there will still be bastards, but if being a bastard means being blacklisted by so many people that you can't find a group, you'll either change your act real fast or be forced to reroll.
While I agree with that on some level, I don't think that the increase in homicides would be permanent. The laws in our societies which prohibit murder came about due to the need for human beings to rely upon each other to survive. Or, at least, to make surviving much easier. Although there may be an increase in homicide for a short time, eventually this would stabilize as people learn first-hand exactly why murder was made illegal in the first place. Sure, you could kill the grocer in order to feed your family, but keep in mind that that grocer's larder will eventually empty, and you'll be no better off than you were before. Further, if the rest of the community also relies on that grocer for their food, they'll be pissed at the fact that you've killed him and will likely do something about it (kill you right back, perhaps?). The laws that keep people in check were formed out of the interdependence of individuals in civilized society; removing federal law which prohibits murder wouldn't have an effect on that interdependence.
The problem with MMOs, as I view it, is the slow loss of this interdependence among players. In most games today its entirely possible, if you want, to get to max level on your own. Increasingly more options are being provided for those who wish to continue to play by themselves at end-game. Even the options that force you to interact (dungeon finders, scenario/battleground queues, etc.) allow you to interact cross-server in order to streamline the process. While this may be all well and good, it destroys any semblance of a society or a community within these games, and that is where the anarchy comes from.
If you want my opinion on how to fix it, do this. Increase the freedom people have in game. Let them kill people or be an asshat as often as they'd like. But also increase the difficulty of levelling content. Make the game require positive, cooperative, amicable interaction between players in order to advance. Of course, there will still be bastards, but if being a bastard means being blacklisted by so many people that you can't find a group, you'll either change your act real fast or be forced to reroll.
That would not work simply because some people don't give a damn, especially in online worlds. Through anonymosity and lack of any real consequence, people can go about doing whatever the hell they feel like it, and eventually, they will look into detracting from other peoples' experience, even if that person would otherwise serve as someone helpful. For an in-game community to work, you not only need interdependence, but you need established laws and punishments. Some people live off what others gain. Some people just like to annoy others. Some people are simply crazy. Some people are too ambitious. Some are too greedy. Some may be unaware of the real reason they are killing. Some people are prejudicial. The list goes on and on. As much as most of the people in society tend to band together to establish a greater good and some sense of order, there is no predicting the human mentality of certain individuals, who alone can bring utter disruption without the infractions and penalties to stop them.
Sometimes laws cause more harm than good. In certain parts of the city, a bad traffic would happen approximately once a year, resulting in death. To stop this problem, they removed the traffic lights and made a circular area, people had to slow down because they weren't use to it, and everyone is more careful in that intersection and as a result, for the last few years at least, no casualties. Not to say that a bastard couldn't come along and run someone over, that is certainly possible.
We don't need more bastards in MMORPGS. We do need more variety in mmorpgs. Too many mmorpgs are too similiar. not every mmorpg should have number keystrokes that activate abilities. The majority do though. Yes, you can remap your keyboard, but the point remains that a new system should be designed that is fun to play. We need more complexity, and more diversity. What is most mmorpgs about? Leveling, and crafting....Most mmorpgs are about this. We need more variety.
PVP should not be the only other option. Some characters are just stronger than other builds. A have a character in City of Heroes that is a scrapper, his main job is to do Damage per Second. I upgraded him to have a range weapon and flight. He's very dangerous in PVP. The problem, its not that challenging. No one wants to PVP one vs one in that game. City of Heroes is all about PVE, not PVP. Most mmorpgs are like this. 90% of the game is Care-bears. They don't want to PVP.
Most smart people don't go around killing others (In real Life). The reason is because its a quick way to end your own life. Eventually you make a mistake, and either get caught or killed yourself. 99% of the population is normal, its the 1% that you have to watch out for. probably less than 1%.
========================== The game is dead not, this game is good we make it and Romania Tv give it 5 goat heads, this is good rating for game.
Listen, stop equaling murders in real life and pvp killings in game. When I kill you in the game, I don't harm you, okay? When you kill me, I'm not harmed. Got it? I don't have to be a psychopath to gank your toon, allright?
Listen, stop equaling murders in real life and pvp killings in game. When I kill you in the game, I don't harm you, okay? When you kill me, I'm not harmed. Got it? I don't have to be a psychopath to gank your toon, allright?
Ridiculous.
You are only seeing things in the terms of the physical, there are many ways to harm an individual, and they can be far more terrible than any physical pain.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It's kind of true, but it depends on the bastards in question;
Good Example;
AoC had a group on Tyranny at launch called *HOGG*, who were "the" griefer group on the server for the time. They would hold down an entire zone with just a handful of players, some not even max-lvl (at the time), and just keep people from doing their quests until they got riled up enough to find buddies and give them a real fight.
They didn't take in any new players wanting in, never truly zerged anyone, and were able to be a thorn in the whole server's side through sheer skill and coordination. Eventually people were loving the idea of hearing "HOGG @ FotD", or something. They even had a podcast (for a while) that was slightly entertaining. They actually did the server community a service by being a common enemy, and a respectable rival.
Bad Example;
Every once in a while 4chan will invade a game that allows for griefing (in any way) that happens to have a tree trial, or is just generally F2P. They attacked Wurm Online multiple times, a game where people change the game-world into art through months of work, and basically forced the devs to remove "basic accounts" for a time, and seperate an infinite free trial server from the premium ones. Yep, griefers hate having to pay - so it worked - but they came back to the free trials server during MY time there, and made ours gameplay days a living hell.
I almost never came back after having our forest cut down, being encased in an non-smashable fence, turning a quarter of the landmass into an unfixable gravel pit (the devs had to come in and fix it themselves using in-game tools), etc. They are lucky I even chose to go premium because of all that, but I'm glad I did. Imagine what others think after something like that. These people are just out to RUIN a game, with no other motive than actually making a game go under - it's literally in their charter.
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>>You are only seeing things in the terms of the physical, there are many ways to harm an individual, and they can be far more terrible than any physical pain.<<
No! No! If you are playing the damn game, you can't be harmed by the death of your toon worse than physically. You die in pve all the time! And if you ARE hurt that badly, don't play the game which allow non-consetual pvp - they have warnings on their boxes, you know. This is ridiculous. This is worse than ridiculous. I don't even know how to call it.
Worst case consequence: you stop playing the damn game. Oh noes! Your life is ruined! Why, may be you'll even stop playing games whatsoever and will do something useful with your time. Can't have it, can we!
Dying once in PvP isn't griefing.... dying for every moment that you decide to play, because they have you locked down in front of a spawn point, is griefing.
Play EVE online, people park outside stations for 24 HOURS A DAY, 7 DAYS A WEEK, in shifts, to make sure other people can't undock (and therefore, play). It's a serious metagame of getting someone to cancel their sub.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
MMORPGS aren't exciting or as fun as they used to be because there's no risk in them.
In fact a lot of them you can win just by spending cash on them.
How is that fun? You spend $100-$200 and you've just beat the game (I'm sure it's much more many than this so please don't feel the need to correct me because it's just being used as an example).
I want to feel frustrated because I lost my hard earned items from being killed by open worlded PvP.
You know why?
Because then when I work hard to earn everything back the feeling of acomplishment would be 100% times more.
I know at the time it happens it's not fun and you wish it hadn't happened.
You wouldn't actually be saying that you wanted this to happen all along and neither would I. I think you know what I'm getting at though.
That feeling that you can do anything and get anything with hard enough work and dedication.
I dissagree for one reason. When you are playing a game you have a certain Anonymity. You can do horrible things to a person and then just log off.
In real life there can be permenent reprocussions to killing someone or stealing from them. This is part of why we behave. it isn't that we don't want to do bad things (Sometimes in a fit of rage) it is that we are worried about getting caught.
So if you want to take away all the safety nets and let characters kill each other and steal all their stuff at will... Go ahead. Just make sure that everyone in the game has to post their real Identity, where they live, what their e-mail is, what their phone number is. That way if someone griefs you; you can go over to there house and kick their ass in real life.
I often see the "risk VS reward" argument in debates like this.
But rarely is the hunter at any risk at all, wereas the hunted never see any reward.
And even if caught by an anti-pk gang, there is still little risk, even with full loot, these people rarely run around doing their evil deeds in bazzillion gold equipment, they have 5 complete, cheap, sets in the bank, tailored for the task.
Give it REAL consequences to be an evil bastard, once caught, and you are different ways into "red", ( ie flagged as a pk ), you go to jail, or are hanged, permanently!
As most MMO use the 90 minute or so day system, a one year sentence, for a murder for example, is one year in game time for that character, as in unplyable for two weeks, well playable in an 8 by 8 foot room, with a hole in the ground!
Enough crimes in your bag, public hanging and perma death!
Much like in real life there is freedom, you can pretty much do whatever the hell you want, until you get caught.
An FFA full loot mmo with a system like that could be really interesting.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Play EVE online, people park outside stations for 24 HOURS A DAY, 7 DAYS A WEEK, in shifts, to make sure other people can't undock (and therefore, play). It's a serious metagame of getting someone to cancel their sub.<<
*rolls eyes* well, clonejump, then! *Grumble, mumble, mumble* Ridiculous. I've played Eve for years; there is not a single situation there where a player can be actually GRIEFED without him being a complete and utter twit who repeats the same dumb action.. and suffers the same consequence.
And the worst case of cancelling the sub? Ohhhh! Horrible! You stop playing a game! You are grieviously harmed! I weep for your loss! Bah! Balderdash! Certainly that's on the same level as real-life murder!
Give it REAL consequences to be an evil bastard, once caught, and you are different ways into "red", ( ie flagged as a pk ), you go to jail, or are hanged, permanently!
As most MMO use the 90 minute or so day system, a one year sentence, for a murder for example, is one year in game time for that character, as in unplyable for two weeks, well playable in an 8 by 8 foot room, with a hole in the ground!
Enough crimes in your bag, public hanging and perma death!
Much like in real life there is freedom, you can pretty much do whatever the hell you want, until you get caught.
An FFA full loot mmo with a system like that could be really interesting.
I'm all for that; why not? I would gladly play that game and murder people in it, the consequences will make it all the more exciting.
And if caught? Well, I'll just log in another char, won't I?
This is the same warmed over dogma that the Goonies and others have been pushing for years now. For those who aren't familiar with them, one of their mottos is; "We don't want to ruin the game, we want to ruin your game". There will always be those who get their jollies from ruining others play experience. Games that allow or encourage that niche themselves in the modern western markets. Its a niche thats been growing progressively smaller over the years.
Comments
I agree with your statement and thats also the big problem these days.
I agree 100% with article.
Most whiners and crybabys will never understand this way of playing anyway.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
If im correctly AoC alos have MAX 50 players on one server clone so you never wil see more then 50 players or you have to go to other clone server. So NWN with 128 is more a mmo then AoC but AoC is a mmorpg?
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
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Unconditional freedom is an illusion. Real world societies do not operate in this manner and so wouldn't game societies. You need rules, laws, and policies to contain the people, especially in cases where real forms of punishment are merely superficial or redundant at best. Man, devoid of society's grasp, reveals its true nature and, unshackled by organization, is led to disruption, chaos, and absolute anarchy.
Agreed, absolute freedom is a terrible goal for a MMORPG to have, especially if trying to develop a decent world simulation.
Real world has laws, police, severe penalties that even then struggle to keep the barbarian inside mankind in check, so in a game world with no real consequence how much more challenging is it for a developer to keep the baser instincts in check and prevent everything from devolving into chaos?
I suppose you could create a "policeman" class, which was substantially stronger than the average Pker, had the right to pursue and hunt down criminals with tools not normally at the disposal of the average pker, and the consequences for pking should be the same as in the real world, long term incararation or even character death.
Who really wants to take the time to design a game like that, too much effort and one finds that most people who claim to be griefers and pkers really don't have the stomach to face real in game risk, they make sure the odds are strongly in their favor in almost every situation. (which is smart I'll agree, but certainly no fun for the victim)
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Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think in many cases that is true.
The few times I located and pk'ed former attackers I found them to be crying, whiny little kids. going off on rants, swearing, making threats that they would make my life miserable, etc. when they found me I was completley unaware and as is the case with some of these games, at times it only takes a few hits to push you into "you lose" territory.
Not in every case but they are there.
They just be joys in "real life".
still, there are pk'ers who are decent people and who add a bit of fun to open world pvp. They are respectful, react with "ah yeah, you got me" and in genreal act more in line with the spirit of these games being "games".
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Games are made by DEVELOPERS they annouce the game and it get followers right?
So when those followers know what game is, it seems to me when they start playing they agree on terms that game have right?
If the game have FREE FOR ALL(i think we all understand what that means right?) and you still starting to play and you accept those rules you can't complain about harsh PVP right?
But lets start with game thats no longer, but where i started to hate all whiners and crybabys who wanne be left alone while pve and hated gankers/pkers.
Game is called Asherons call 2 it had regular PVE white serves with some areas where you could PVP like palisade region, and you had plenty of choice in US and EUROPE to choose your white server.
But you had one FREE FOR ALL server called DARKTIDE only ONE everybody knew it was a hardcore PVP(AND NOT EVEN WITH FULL LOOT) witch means in Asherons call 2 no safezone at all. Did not matter if you entered towns or dungeons its was all OPEN PVP.
So all who choose to play on such server SHOULD NEVER whine or cry about been corpse camped or ganked or that there dugeon run is ruined when your fight BOSS for example. If you complain about FREE FOR ALL PVP choose a white server right or am i wrong tell me?
Nobody force you to play such servers with hardcore pvp right?
But NOOO... still people who keep crying and crying about harsh pvp becouse pkers/gankers did not leave them alone lol what a losers i say, dont make a toon then on server like that right?
The good thing about AC2 was it still had a decent ANTI vs RPK community on Darktide and ANTI many times protected the newbees and the weak and hunt down Pkers. Players made there own politics and most of time it worked when notorious players keep ganking lowbees ANTI came in to help them.
But thats how it slowly started people made a toon on FREE FOR ALL pvp server but still expected a WHITE safezone server WTF:(
Result is we have now mainly uber protective games with instance and bullshit BG or ARENAS for those who can't take real hardcore PVP.
Its sad but now only few games left like Darkfall and its empty becouse most hate the ganking or hardcore gameplay bah:(
One of reasons why i almost dont play MMO'S anymore is becouse of this attitude people have agains my favorite genre FREE FOR ALL FULL LOOT PVP and its dying:(
And you can't attacke me for this, becouse i was pure ANTI always helped weak and newbees and hunt down evil pk. But that was the whole fun pk/gankers attacked anybody they saw and ANTI fight those who disrupt the peace thats makes it fun and EXCITING.
@ Above poster what your saying is absolutely not true ive played sinds '99 mainly hardcore free for all pvp mmo's and ive for most time met pkers who dont cry more then the avarage white server leave me alone crybabys and whiners sure some maybe cryed and only take on lowbees but on Darktide that was for most part not the case.
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the "problem" is not specific MMOs. "problem" are players. when players have different set of assumptions and expectation, no game system EVER will make all players happy. on the other side, when player do have same assumptions and expectations, the game system is irrelevant. that's why role-playing is primarily a cooperative experience, and it stands somewhat opposed to traditional gaming, which is competitive.
that's not to stay that role-players can't role-play "competition", but it's essential that resulting narrative will be acceptable to both sides. on the other hand, gamers can take on specific role, but it's not more than a flavor toward their desired goal.
in other words, it's not who's right or wrong, but what who wants what. more different games... for everyone!
While developers do indeed decide how to formulate their game and how the rules are going to operate, in order for a meaningful, persistent, and healthy online community to develop and prosper, one needs laws, rules, and policies. You can't give freedom to the extent that the players can decide and do anything. Such does not work in the real world with actual punishments and would most definitely not work in an online environment, defined by its anonymosity and lack of real consequence. If you do not create a set of parameters that essentially limit what the character can do, uncategorically there will be no organization whatsoever. I suggest you read a rather famous novel called The Heart of Darkness, which deals a lot with how human nature operates without the constrictions of society.
Your analogy is a complete equivocation. There is no person on the other end of the game happily playing as the digital rat just moving about in a field.
Back to the topic at hand. Open world PvP with real consequences is extremely niche because most players don't have the time to keep up with elitePKninjarzxxx. How many people play Mortal Online? Hell how many people played UO? Take the agregate of the gaming community and you will see that the vast majority has already voted with their dollar away from that type of system.
A simple solution to the authors desire for that feeling of "I could be attacked at any moment" would be to play games with RvR. It consolidates a large audience of people that like this in their game without ruining the fun other people have in the game. The problem isn't that there's not enough "free will" as the author puts it, the problem with MMOs today is that they follow the same, tired game design troupes: Questing is repetitive, gear grinds > skill, nothing in the world is very dynamic or changing.
Hopefully GW2 can help re-energize this stagnant genre.
Actually, I highly disagree with this. If killing were made legal, you would see the number of homicides, assassinations, and murders increase uncontrollably. It would become a free for all. If you had a family to support, and no money to do so, you would go steal from a groceries store. The store clerk would deny your assault, you would kill him, and that would be the end of it. There would be no stability, everything would be chaotic and we would tear each other apart.
While I agree with that on some level, I don't think that the increase in homicides would be permanent. The laws in our societies which prohibit murder came about due to the need for human beings to rely upon each other to survive. Or, at least, to make surviving much easier. Although there may be an increase in homicide for a short time, eventually this would stabilize as people learn first-hand exactly why murder was made illegal in the first place. Sure, you could kill the grocer in order to feed your family, but keep in mind that that grocer's larder will eventually empty, and you'll be no better off than you were before. Further, if the rest of the community also relies on that grocer for their food, they'll be pissed at the fact that you've killed him and will likely do something about it (kill you right back, perhaps?). The laws that keep people in check were formed out of the interdependence of individuals in civilized society; removing federal law which prohibits murder wouldn't have an effect on that interdependence.
The problem with MMOs, as I view it, is the slow loss of this interdependence among players. In most games today its entirely possible, if you want, to get to max level on your own. Increasingly more options are being provided for those who wish to continue to play by themselves at end-game. Even the options that force you to interact (dungeon finders, scenario/battleground queues, etc.) allow you to interact cross-server in order to streamline the process. While this may be all well and good, it destroys any semblance of a society or a community within these games, and that is where the anarchy comes from.
If you want my opinion on how to fix it, do this. Increase the freedom people have in game. Let them kill people or be an asshat as often as they'd like. But also increase the difficulty of levelling content. Make the game require positive, cooperative, amicable interaction between players in order to advance. Of course, there will still be bastards, but if being a bastard means being blacklisted by so many people that you can't find a group, you'll either change your act real fast or be forced to reroll.
That would not work simply because some people don't give a damn, especially in online worlds. Through anonymosity and lack of any real consequence, people can go about doing whatever the hell they feel like it, and eventually, they will look into detracting from other peoples' experience, even if that person would otherwise serve as someone helpful. For an in-game community to work, you not only need interdependence, but you need established laws and punishments. Some people live off what others gain. Some people just like to annoy others. Some people are simply crazy. Some people are too ambitious. Some are too greedy. Some may be unaware of the real reason they are killing. Some people are prejudicial. The list goes on and on. As much as most of the people in society tend to band together to establish a greater good and some sense of order, there is no predicting the human mentality of certain individuals, who alone can bring utter disruption without the infractions and penalties to stop them.
Sometimes laws cause more harm than good. In certain parts of the city, a bad traffic would happen approximately once a year, resulting in death. To stop this problem, they removed the traffic lights and made a circular area, people had to slow down because they weren't use to it, and everyone is more careful in that intersection and as a result, for the last few years at least, no casualties. Not to say that a bastard couldn't come along and run someone over, that is certainly possible.
We don't need more bastards in MMORPGS. We do need more variety in mmorpgs. Too many mmorpgs are too similiar. not every mmorpg should have number keystrokes that activate abilities. The majority do though. Yes, you can remap your keyboard, but the point remains that a new system should be designed that is fun to play. We need more complexity, and more diversity. What is most mmorpgs about? Leveling, and crafting....Most mmorpgs are about this. We need more variety.
PVP should not be the only other option. Some characters are just stronger than other builds. A have a character in City of Heroes that is a scrapper, his main job is to do Damage per Second. I upgraded him to have a range weapon and flight. He's very dangerous in PVP. The problem, its not that challenging. No one wants to PVP one vs one in that game. City of Heroes is all about PVE, not PVP. Most mmorpgs are like this. 90% of the game is Care-bears. They don't want to PVP.
Most smart people don't go around killing others (In real Life). The reason is because its a quick way to end your own life. Eventually you make a mistake, and either get caught or killed yourself. 99% of the population is normal, its the 1% that you have to watch out for. probably less than 1%.
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The game is dead not, this game is good we make it and Romania Tv give it 5 goat heads, this is good rating for game.
You people are crazy.
Listen, stop equaling murders in real life and pvp killings in game. When I kill you in the game, I don't harm you, okay? When you kill me, I'm not harmed. Got it? I don't have to be a psychopath to gank your toon, allright?
Ridiculous.
You are only seeing things in the terms of the physical, there are many ways to harm an individual, and they can be far more terrible than any physical pain.
And yes, you are missing the point.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It's kind of true, but it depends on the bastards in question;
Good Example;
AoC had a group on Tyranny at launch called *HOGG*, who were "the" griefer group on the server for the time. They would hold down an entire zone with just a handful of players, some not even max-lvl (at the time), and just keep people from doing their quests until they got riled up enough to find buddies and give them a real fight.
They didn't take in any new players wanting in, never truly zerged anyone, and were able to be a thorn in the whole server's side through sheer skill and coordination. Eventually people were loving the idea of hearing "HOGG @ FotD", or something. They even had a podcast (for a while) that was slightly entertaining. They actually did the server community a service by being a common enemy, and a respectable rival.
Bad Example;
Every once in a while 4chan will invade a game that allows for griefing (in any way) that happens to have a tree trial, or is just generally F2P. They attacked Wurm Online multiple times, a game where people change the game-world into art through months of work, and basically forced the devs to remove "basic accounts" for a time, and seperate an infinite free trial server from the premium ones. Yep, griefers hate having to pay - so it worked - but they came back to the free trials server during MY time there, and made ours gameplay days a living hell.
I almost never came back after having our forest cut down, being encased in an non-smashable fence, turning a quarter of the landmass into an unfixable gravel pit (the devs had to come in and fix it themselves using in-game tools), etc. They are lucky I even chose to go premium because of all that, but I'm glad I did. Imagine what others think after something like that. These people are just out to RUIN a game, with no other motive than actually making a game go under - it's literally in their charter.
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>>You are only seeing things in the terms of the physical, there are many ways to harm an individual, and they can be far more terrible than any physical pain.<<
No! No! If you are playing the damn game, you can't be harmed by the death of your toon worse than physically. You die in pve all the time! And if you ARE hurt that badly, don't play the game which allow non-consetual pvp - they have warnings on their boxes, you know. This is ridiculous. This is worse than ridiculous. I don't even know how to call it.
Worst case consequence: you stop playing the damn game. Oh noes! Your life is ruined! Why, may be you'll even stop playing games whatsoever and will do something useful with your time. Can't have it, can we!
@Grahor.
Dying once in PvP isn't griefing.... dying for every moment that you decide to play, because they have you locked down in front of a spawn point, is griefing.
Play EVE online, people park outside stations for 24 HOURS A DAY, 7 DAYS A WEEK, in shifts, to make sure other people can't undock (and therefore, play). It's a serious metagame of getting someone to cancel their sub.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
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Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I agree with this article 100%.
MMORPGS aren't exciting or as fun as they used to be because there's no risk in them.
In fact a lot of them you can win just by spending cash on them.
How is that fun? You spend $100-$200 and you've just beat the game (I'm sure it's much more many than this so please don't feel the need to correct me because it's just being used as an example).
I want to feel frustrated because I lost my hard earned items from being killed by open worlded PvP.
You know why?
Because then when I work hard to earn everything back the feeling of acomplishment would be 100% times more.
I know at the time it happens it's not fun and you wish it hadn't happened.
You wouldn't actually be saying that you wanted this to happen all along and neither would I. I think you know what I'm getting at though.
That feeling that you can do anything and get anything with hard enough work and dedication.
Smile
I dissagree for one reason. When you are playing a game you have a certain Anonymity. You can do horrible things to a person and then just log off.
In real life there can be permenent reprocussions to killing someone or stealing from them. This is part of why we behave. it isn't that we don't want to do bad things (Sometimes in a fit of rage) it is that we are worried about getting caught.
So if you want to take away all the safety nets and let characters kill each other and steal all their stuff at will... Go ahead. Just make sure that everyone in the game has to post their real Identity, where they live, what their e-mail is, what their phone number is. That way if someone griefs you; you can go over to there house and kick their ass in real life.
I bet people would behave a little better.
I often see the "risk VS reward" argument in debates like this.
But rarely is the hunter at any risk at all, wereas the hunted never see any reward.
And even if caught by an anti-pk gang, there is still little risk, even with full loot, these people rarely run around doing their evil deeds in bazzillion gold equipment, they have 5 complete, cheap, sets in the bank, tailored for the task.
Give it REAL consequences to be an evil bastard, once caught, and you are different ways into "red", ( ie flagged as a pk ), you go to jail, or are hanged, permanently!
As most MMO use the 90 minute or so day system, a one year sentence, for a murder for example, is one year in game time for that character, as in unplyable for two weeks, well playable in an 8 by 8 foot room, with a hole in the ground!
Enough crimes in your bag, public hanging and perma death!
Much like in real life there is freedom, you can pretty much do whatever the hell you want, until you get caught.
An FFA full loot mmo with a system like that could be really interesting.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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>>Play EVE online, people park outside stations for 24 HOURS A DAY, 7 DAYS A WEEK, in shifts, to make sure other people can't undock (and therefore, play). It's a serious metagame of getting someone to cancel their sub.<<
*rolls eyes* well, clonejump, then! *Grumble, mumble, mumble* Ridiculous. I've played Eve for years; there is not a single situation there where a player can be actually GRIEFED without him being a complete and utter twit who repeats the same dumb action.. and suffers the same consequence.
And the worst case of cancelling the sub? Ohhhh! Horrible! You stop playing a game! You are grieviously harmed! I weep for your loss! Bah! Balderdash! Certainly that's on the same level as real-life murder!
I'm all for that; why not? I would gladly play that game and murder people in it, the consequences will make it all the more exciting.
And if caught? Well, I'll just log in another char, won't I?
This is the same warmed over dogma that the Goonies and others have been pushing for years now. For those who aren't familiar with them, one of their mottos is; "We don't want to ruin the game, we want to ruin your game". There will always be those who get their jollies from ruining others play experience. Games that allow or encourage that niche themselves in the modern western markets. Its a niche thats been growing progressively smaller over the years.