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Why WoW's new talent system makes sense, and other games should analyze it.

2

Comments

  • redcloud16redcloud16 Seattle, WAPosts: 222Member

    I for one much prefer the new talent revamps. 

    This is how I see things:

    I have always been and always will be a Demo warlock, whether it's good or bad. So when I rechoose Demonology at the talent reset, as I level I will gain all the abilities I would have chosen anyway automatically as I level. Then every 15 levels, I get to choose a special ability, and they're telling me I can pick any of the three? Instead of being in my own tree, and glancing over to the other two and being envious of an obviously superior talent over there. I cna pick whatever I want, and still be a Demonology warlock. 

    I don't know if that made any sense, or if I even got my point across. I am also not a number cruncher and don't really min/max (though I do dabble from time to time). I usually choose something I think would be fun or fits for my character to have. This system is something I think appeals to me.

    I don't get when people think this is taking choices away when I feel it is giving me more than before. I agree with the OP in that the original talents felt like the choices there were an illusion, and this option gives way more options to be rmoe unique. In the end, I will still have all of the tools to remain a Demonology warlock, but I will have a few abilities and powers that make me different than the other Demonology warlocks. 

    Also, i don't play WoW at the moment. I get bored of it, and take several months break. I haven't quit, just not playing until something really fun hits. Like MoP. 

    Just sharing my opinion.

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  • QuesaQuesa Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,246Member

    The illusion of choice is just perception.  The player ALWAYS had a choice but that choice was removed by the inability or people to stand up for themselves and the short-sightedness of raid leaders who don't want to look past what the hard-cores say and do.

    The new talent system does eliminate choice.  Instead of 1 choice every 2 levels, you get 1 every 15 levels.  It's basic math, arguing against it is just nonsensical.

    If you want to defend the talent system, great - do it but don't try to hide behind "it doesn't remove choice" then you're doing yourself a hinderance as your argument is based on a fabrication.

  • ElricmerrenElricmerren White Bear Lake, MNPosts: 295Member

    The one thignk i like is the choices you gain, but also i like that one of the higher  talents gives you acces to a new set of demon pets. this was really needed we have had the same basica pets for how long now.

  • redcloud16redcloud16 Seattle, WAPosts: 222Member

    Originally posted by Quesa

    The illusion of choice is just perception.  The player ALWAYS had a choice but that choice was removed by the inability or people to stand up for themselves and the short-sightedness of raid leaders who don't want to look past what the hard-cores say and do.

    The new talent system does eliminate choice.  Instead of 1 choice every 2 levels, you get 1 every 15 levels.  It's basic math, arguing against it is just nonsensical.

    If you want to defend the talent system, great - do it but don't try to hide behind "it doesn't remove choice" then you're doing yourself a hinderance as your argument is based on a fabrication.

    Like you said it's a matter of perception. Obviously there are less choices. But TO ME I think the new choices have more meaning. Which makes them matter that much more to me. 

     

     

     

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  • QuesaQuesa Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,246Member

    Originally posted by redcloud16

    Originally posted by Quesa

    The illusion of choice is just perception.  The player ALWAYS had a choice but that choice was removed by the inability or people to stand up for themselves and the short-sightedness of raid leaders who don't want to look past what the hard-cores say and do.

    The new talent system does eliminate choice.  Instead of 1 choice every 2 levels, you get 1 every 15 levels.  It's basic math, arguing against it is just nonsensical.

    If you want to defend the talent system, great - do it but don't try to hide behind "it doesn't remove choice" then you're doing yourself a hinderance as your argument is based on a fabrication.

    Like you said it's a matter of perception. Obviously there are less choices. But TO ME I think the new choices have more meaning. Which makes them matter that much more to me. 

    Maybe but it's still based on the perception because in the end, there will still be a most optimal spec that will be mandatory for top tier raiding which has a trickledown effect to the not-so-hardcore raiders.  It's the same thing.  

    The arguments don't take into account the history of this and many other games.  Every year they modify the talent system in hopes of balancing out the trees.  I got to hand it to them for giving it a good go in Cata which put alot of specs into the viable category for raiding but it ends up being the same old story, at SOME point in a characters progression there is ONE spec that is the best.

    Until people learn that you don't need the spec that pushes out .05% more dps than the other, the removal of 80% of the choice won't matter because there will always be that illusion hiding people from the choice.

  • aRtFuLThinGaRtFuLThinG MelbournePosts: 1,134Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by kostoslav

    Originally posted by Loke666

    Actually, I agree with the OP, this is a step forward for Wow.

    I personally would want a system closer to how Guildwars works however, where you unlock skills and pick all of them from a list based on your profession and what you have unlocked. Of course I also want more than 8 skills as GW have but in my book is the more customization the better. GWs idea is a lot more flexible than anything else.

    I agree, Guild Wars 1 have the best skill system by far. U can mix it with secondary proffesion spells, and u can chouse any profession as secondary when ever u want. 

    Actually the original SWG has the best skill/profession system imo.

    A character should be a clean slate, and you should be free to go down whichever path/hybrid of professions that you want, given the maximum number of points available.

  • ElricmerrenElricmerren White Bear Lake, MNPosts: 295Member

    Originally posted by Quesa

    The illusion of choice is just perception.  The player ALWAYS had a choice but that choice was removed by the inability or people to stand up for themselves and the short-sightedness of raid leaders who don't want to look past what the hard-cores say and do.

    The new talent system does eliminate choice.  Instead of 1 choice every 2 levels, you get 1 every 15 levels.  It's basic math, arguing against it is just nonsensical.

    If you want to defend the talent system, great - do it but don't try to hide behind "it doesn't remove choice" then you're doing yourself a hinderance as your argument is based on a fabrication.

     You did have more choice in the talent trees, beofre but yet alot of the tree was filler and or worthless talents overall, even plizzard said they put alot of filler talents into the trees to make them feel like they had more options. Also the options you have to play copetitively now with what ever build you want will be better. Anyone saying that frost was a good competitive tree for dps would be needing to check into the phyc ward.They gave us options to specalize into a role as well  as having the option to use the type of attacks we  wished wiithout feeling we are gimped.  That fact is alot better then having three trees that are pointed to being for one or another style with vary little leeway. Now this system though does limit you to three choices that spice up but overall would nto do much else for you really till you hit about half to three forth up.

  • QuesaQuesa Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,246Member

    Originally posted by Elricmerren

    Originally posted by Quesa

    The illusion of choice is just perception.  The player ALWAYS had a choice but that choice was removed by the inability or people to stand up for themselves and the short-sightedness of raid leaders who don't want to look past what the hard-cores say and do.

    The new talent system does eliminate choice.  Instead of 1 choice every 2 levels, you get 1 every 15 levels.  It's basic math, arguing against it is just nonsensical.

    If you want to defend the talent system, great - do it but don't try to hide behind "it doesn't remove choice" then you're doing yourself a hinderance as your argument is based on a fabrication.

     You did have more choice in the talent trees, beofre but yet alot of the tree was filler and or worthless talents overall, even plizzard said they put alot of filler talents into the trees to make them feel like they had more options. Also the options you have to play copetitively now with what ever build you want will be better. Anyone saying that frost was a good competitive tree for dps would be needing to check into the phyc ward.They gave us options to specalize into a role as well  as having the option to use the type of attacks we  wished wiithout feeling we are gimped.  That fact is alot better then having three trees that are pointed to being for one or another style with vary little leeway. Now this system though does limit you to three choices that spice up but overall would nto do much else for you really till you hit about half to three forth up.

    And my point is that there will always be a top spec.  As long as they tie damage or CC into any talents, it's going to happen.

    It is true that there were filler talents but not all.  Even if you pulled out all the perceived filler talents, you'll still have more choice than what they are giving you in the next expac.

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,065Member Uncommon

    The only viable system is a system with skilltrees, where people can choose to spend points in whatever tree they want... if build from the ground it can also be ballanced quite well...

     

    Blizzard is moving intoo the wrong direction....exactly the opposite... that little spec tree they had left they are killing right now... And how simpler your system is, how more cooky clutter it becomes...

     

    Only very deep systems with many many options can overcome the cooky clutter builds.... (tough most opeop[le still would build those as it would be easiest to do) ... but it would allow people to build exactly the class they want or need... what the heck, there would be no more classes left..

     

    But then i dont think it will make such a huge difference for Blizzaard, as Blizzard long ago decided that Gear >>>>> character spec.  which on its turn is more important then player skill...  People will addapt and move on, If they are having fun playing WoW now, they will after this update.

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • QuesaQuesa Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,246Member

    There are plenty of people who would dissagree with me but I still feel that this whole expansion is a way for them to scale back development investment into the game.  No new raid bosses or epic boss to down, slimmed down talent system and a "refocusing development on the player and not raids".

    Maybe it's all me seeing a conspiracy but I still see WoW dev scalebacks so they can ramp up development on Titan.

  • ElricmerrenElricmerren White Bear Lake, MNPosts: 295Member

    Originally posted by Quesa

    Originally posted by Elricmerren

    Originally posted by Quesa

    The illusion of choice is just perception.  The player ALWAYS had a choice but that choice was removed by the inability or people to stand up for themselves and the short-sightedness of raid leaders who don't want to look past what the hard-cores say and do.

    The new talent system does eliminate choice.  Instead of 1 choice every 2 levels, you get 1 every 15 levels.  It's basic math, arguing against it is just nonsensical.

    If you want to defend the talent system, great - do it but don't try to hide behind "it doesn't remove choice" then you're doing yourself a hinderance as your argument is based on a fabrication.

     You did have more choice in the talent trees, beofre but yet alot of the tree was filler and or worthless talents overall, even plizzard said they put alot of filler talents into the trees to make them feel like they had more options. Also the options you have to play copetitively now with what ever build you want will be better. Anyone saying that frost was a good competitive tree for dps would be needing to check into the phyc ward.They gave us options to specalize into a role as well  as having the option to use the type of attacks we  wished wiithout feeling we are gimped.  That fact is alot better then having three trees that are pointed to being for one or another style with vary little leeway. Now this system though does limit you to three choices that spice up but overall would nto do much else for you really till you hit about half to three forth up.

    And my point is that there will always be a top spec.  As long as they tie damage or CC into any talents, it's going to happen.

    It is true that there were filler talents but not all.  Even if you pulled out all the perceived filler talents, you'll still have more choice than what they are giving you in the next expac.

     VAry true. Yet we now have many of the talented abilities as base-line with things liek double cc and such added as flavor in the tree. YOu could say you would make your build around what spells you have at your use in your spell book over what will be buffed by your talent choices. IT is a toss up at points becase we do not kwno how many of the spells are base line and which are base-line. I could see that if largely 50% of the talented abilities that are not now used were placed as base  line then you would gain alot of more choice not in the tree but in yoru utility as well as your rotations. I will say that outside of one or two spells that were buffed by talent choices i did not see much that would make one or another speel used over another in a rotation much better.

     

    To me the talets are more about talioring as well as focuing your abilities to your playstyle, over a talent tree determining your playstyle. I used a frostfire specc on my mage since the spell was availible, and most of the time it was seen as subpar yet i could do better then msot dps.

  • redcloud16redcloud16 Seattle, WAPosts: 222Member

    Originally posted by Quesa

    Maybe but it's still based on the perception because in the end, there will still be a most optimal spec that will be mandatory for top tier raiding which has a trickledown effect to the not-so-hardcore raiders.  It's the same thing.  

    The arguments don't take into account the history of this and many other games.  Every year they modify the talent system in hopes of balancing out the trees.  I got to hand it to them for giving it a good go in Cata which put alot of specs into the viable category for raiding but it ends up being the same old story, at SOME point in a characters progression there is ONE spec that is the best.

    Until people learn that you don't need the spec that pushes out .05% more dps than the other, the removal of 80% of the choice won't matter because there will always be that illusion hiding people from the choice.

    You are right, I wasn't debating that point. There are always those people who have to have the absolutely maximum best greatest of the great match-up of skills and talents. 

     

    I am just not one of them, and as such, I like everything about MoP. But then again, I have liked every expansion so far. So take what I say with a grain of salt, I'm pretty easy to please. :)

    image

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,065Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Quesa

    There are plenty of people who would dissagree with me but I still feel that this whole expansion is a way for them to scale back development investment into the game.  No new raid bosses or epic boss to down, slimmed down talent system and a "refocusing development on the player and not raids".

    Maybe it's all me seeing a conspiracy but I still see WoW dev scalebacks so they can ramp up development on Titan.

    Not just you....

     

    But they actually could do both.... with their huge sales and sub numbers... they are making way to much money and not investing enough intoo WoW for the long run..... in 2 years people might ask themsleves, how could this have happened WoW only has 5 Million subs left...

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • ElricmerrenElricmerren White Bear Lake, MNPosts: 295Member

    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    The only viable system is a system with skilltrees, where people can choose to spend points in whatever tree they want... if build from the ground it can also be ballanced quite well...

     

    Blizzard is moving intoo the wrong direction....exactly the opposite... that little spec tree they had left they are killing right now... And how simpler your system is, how more cooky clutter it becomes...

     

    Only very deep systems with many many options can overcome the cooky clutter builds.... (tough most opeop[le still would build those as it would be easiest to do) ... but it would allow people to build exactly the class they want or need... what the heck, there would be no more classes left..

     

    But then i dont think it will make such a huge difference for Blizzaard, as Blizzard long ago decided that Gear >>>>> character spec.  which on its turn is more important then player skill...  People will addapt and move on, If they are having fun playing WoW now, they will after this update.

     One big issue with this is you would need to never use a filler grooup of talents or skills, and make sure to balance the choices perfectly. Options both create as well as destroy cookie cutter build, because the more options the more chance you have a op set of talent choices that would be used over other choice. The reverse is true as well with less choices you have less verity and room for op or up talents that would create a ccookie cutter build. The fact that trully create cookie cutter builds is that most of the people do not want to spend the time to read as well as investagate their choices when a premade build can be gotten. ALso we are competitive by nature (even in charity many make sure to have it knwon who gave the most. ol this is the funniest thing i have heeard ever when i see those calling in and donate or peole getting rewards for helping.), as such when some people start to notice that another person is dealing even a trivial amount more of damage or taking less even they look for a better build. I wouold say though that either a deep or shallow system would hep to reduce the difference in output while allowing you to use what abilities you want to use.

     

    I loved the old 2'nd edition of D&D with it's use of a proficiency system, with the optional rule to allow people to use what ever they liked but with rules to hinder problem choices. Like hwo i had a swordmage that wore plate armor, but yet he had  alot harder time casting the spells, and his metal armor would retain energy from casting the spell that would deal damage to him as it grew. It made it that he disliked longer higher hiting spells, and took close range quick ones instead, it also made the spell multiply how much energy was caught in hsi armor by hwo long the spell too to cast.

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

    Blizzard admits to an illusion of character diversity, cool.

  • NeverdyneNeverdyne Guatemala CityPosts: 167Member

    Originally posted by Nerf09

    Blizzard admits to an illusion of character diversity, cool.

     

    You got to give them credit though, they do have many "classes" per se. Oftentimes, the different specs in one class vary so much in gameplay, by other game's standards they could be simply considered a separate class altogether. For example, a Balance Druid plays very differently from a Feral (Cat) Druid, which also plays different from even a Feral (Bear) Druid. The same goes for Arms Warriors vs Fury Warriors, etc. So in that sense, WoW has 11 classes now, and 33 sub-classes. That is much more than many other games, and I think it's part of the success of WoW. 

     

    Sometimes changing spec even changes your resources. For example, while Melee DPS Monks and Tank Monks use the whole Chi/Sha thing, Healer monks get a mana bar. 

  • CeridithCeridith Toronto, ONPosts: 2,980Member

    The talent system has lacked real choice since BC. In BC, and moreso in Vanilla, hybrid talent build were in some cases on par or even potentially superior to  focused builds, provided you played them properly.

    Sure it was harder to balance, but it was a lot more fun coming up with a build that wasn't standard, but was actually feasible. Not to mention making choices like sacrificing some damage for utility, or vice-versa.

  • SukiyakiSukiyaki GreenwichPosts: 1,398Member Uncommon

    I remember when countless WoW fanboys and exWoW player called off Aions Stigma system, which is based on both significantly distinctive thus gamplay and characterdefining skills with mutliple choices of equal efficiency, separated into multiple tiers mostly unlocked by level, as "lacking" because "only" two dozen of those Stigmas where available

    and compared or bragged about WoWs "near hundreds of choices and possible combinations" with its "51/61/71 whatever talentpoints" and "near hundreds of unique talents" and ignored everyone pointing at exactly what Blizzard has finally officialy admitted years later: The fact the tress where merely bloated to no end and the avaerage choice just had small impact on the actual gameplay, and the whole tree structure with stronger skills at the end did not just limit the potential choices drastically but also how much effectively unique and actual usefull "builds" you could have, which for each class where mostly just 2-4 and 1-2 more of arguable quality, finally offered just an illusion of numerous potential choices.

    But at that point that was of course the best WoW have. Of course everyone had to look up to it and follow the BESTESTEST. Until about a week ago quantitative choice was the significant indicator of "qualitative charactercustomization" just because WoW built on quantitative choice. CHOICE was the best thing you could have. Everyone ignored the actual quality of choices. Simply because thats exactly what this old talentsystem completely lacked.(

     

    Now finally WoW reduced the bloated trees to exactly those both (atleast promised) truely and signficantly distinctive skills/ talents. Basically WoW got to the point other games have realized years ago and whats the result?

    Every second WoW player not just acts like WoW just revolusionized the genre with that move, they didnt just forgot they have since nearly 6 years played with an admitted hardly any of that customization offering talenttree system as the same fans often it credited it for,

    NO now all the other developer should look up to THEM and analyze WOW too?? for what was offered years ago by several other MMORPGs and RPGs? Now WoW player try to explain other player and developer of the illusion of merely bloated customization systems and insiginficant choices? WHAT? (I cant wait to see some in a few months calling games "Wow clones" again because of their skillbased and combatdefining charactercustomization.)

    Whats next? Hey guess what! Personal phasing involving physical objects neither logically nor practically works out in multiplayer games based on sharing a synchronized world. You need cheap restrictive workarounds! Better leave it in first place! News@11!

    Hey guess what! Unpredictable randomness and trial&error isnt as exciting as intuitive combatdesign.

    Hey guess what! If traveling feels boring maybe your world is just bloated, mostly boring and bears nothing to generate lasting interest! Maybe you should fix your game instead of the travel itself.

    Hey guess what! Better gear/enchants/sockets, more luck on monthly "balance" patches, lesser afk'ers &  lowlevel player in your random, more luck on RNG generated procs/dodges/parries/blocks/evasions at the right time, more luck on meeting the right underdog/inferior combos is not actually much relevant to you skill! And maybe half of those reasons are they same reasons why your game will never be accepted as an e-sport game, even if you keep trying to selfpromote it as such with ads and huge cashrewards.

    Maybe in the next two years we finally will learn that from Blizzard too. Hopes are high!

     

  • BergirBergir Toronto, ONPosts: 299Member

    My snap answer would be NO, my thought it over answer is YES.

  • The_QuesterThe_Quester the bronx, NYPosts: 80Member

    Isnt this new system the system that Warhamme Online has?

    I havent read a lot of the info but from what i see it looks like the Warhammer system.

  • DecoyTrooperDecoyTrooper Baltimore, MDPosts: 239Member

    What really matters IS the class, specially if it's a paladin FTW

  • XiaokiXiaoki White Pigeon, MIPosts: 2,609Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by jvxmtg
    I find that statement really funny, seeing how Blizzards are analyzing everybody else's ideas. DOTA in WoW just because League of Legend is successful, and changing skill in town because GW1 does it better...lawl!
     
    Give credits where it is appropriate, not steal them to the glory of the gluttunous copy cat WoW.

    Just want to say this one of the MOST hilarious comments EVER made about WoW and Blizzard.


    I mean, holy crap, did you just say DotA is a copy cat of League Legends?! Is that what you really said?

  • MalevilMalevil BratislavaPosts: 468Member

    Next logical step is to remove talent trees completly, whats their point when everybody plays same spec anyway ?

    /sarcasm off 

  • SouldrainerSouldrainer Elmer, NJPosts: 1,857Member

    I actually like the style and thought behind the new system.  However, as others have said... 6 talents over 90 levels is crap.  You should at least get 1 talent per 10 levels.

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  • Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

    Blizzard is doing this because it's easier to balance and homogenize classes with so little talents. 

    I wonder how much manpower at Blizzard is sucked up by keeping an eye on the hundreds of thousands of posts in the forums on class balance complaints.  Well now they're gonna be saving some money by this streamlining.

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