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Originally posted by Corehaven I just cant agree with the OP. Questing provides context for action. It provides a story or at least a goal.
Don't turn on WOW, WOWhead and look up quest, don't cheat.
Do you remember why you were killing Boars in that zone in WOW? Do you remember the reason you were given the quest and in what context the quest was using? Can't remember the reason? Than context is meaningless, it's one big quest grinding blur.
Originally posted by Nerf09 Originally posted by Corehaven I just cant agree with the OP. Questing provides context for action. It provides a story or at least a goal.
I think this just means that quests need to be more engaging and have more meaning behind them. I think what we actually need is MORE quests. 10-20 times more quests, so there's more variety, so that if you're in a group with 10 people, all of you may have taken different paths and completed different quests with different rewards.
Originally posted by Madimorga I like mindless carnage. I like it far better than being some insignificant NPC's rat killing lackey. Mindless carnage has a soothing repetitiveness that is nterrupted when I have to scurry back to my NPC overlords to hand in quests and get new ones.
Asian MMOs are looking for you.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I think it is funny that people bag on WoW for being themepark, yet they fail to realize you can go through the entire game only doing PvP or explore the world on your own and never do a single quest. Hardly on rails other than maybe that you can't choose where you start.
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Thanks for all the comments and suggestions.
It appears that "most" of us would be interested in some sort of overhaul of the questing system. Games like SWTOR, GW2 and The Secret World are all trying to change or enhance questing in some fashion so its clear that the current system is not working- or at the very least- getting old.
The current questing systems are set up to lead you from one hub to the next. (generalization) Where the items or mobs are located just a few feet from the quest giver. And, after you have completed all of his/her quests you are sent directly to the next quest giver just over the hill.
Although my original post was titled - Remove questing from MMORPG's- I really dont think we should remove them entirerly. I think we need to remove the current system.
I think a combination of them all should be what developers should put into games. Dynamic events can be exciting but can quickly become dull (RIFTS) so a wide variety of dynamic events should be the norm. Also some sort of tutorial quests for beginners that lead them thru the first stages of the game- in this portion quests can be fetch and or kill types. But once you leave the newbie area quests should be more involved. Quests that involve many steps and interesting lore- (with no arrows) where you must search for the items (all while exploring the world gaining items and exp) and use the clues you are given to find or solve the quest. (The Secret World is doing something like this now)
I am unsure of whether quests should give exp or rewards- If the rewards "new sword and or currency" where removed maybe something along the lines of status or titles and access to lore and "hidden" areas might work.
Maybe just lore and status is enough (?) I think it might be-What if, the reward for doing the quest was the actual journey. The gear, status, exp and lore are all earned / learned while doing the quest. Not when you complete it. In a lot of RPG's the quests are just a means to get gear and exp - not the other way around.
Originally posted by czekoskwigel Originally posted by Nerf09 Originally posted by Corehaven I just cant agree with the OP. Questing provides context for action. It provides a story or at least a goal.
Ugh, the problem with mmorpg's are quests, more would be more bad. I long for the day when I camped out respawn points in Everquest 1.
Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by lizardbones MMORPG started without quests. Companies added quests and they made more money.
Very true. MUDs and the early MMOs has little or no questing. Most players back then were looking for a virtual world, whereas most players now are looking for online entertainment. Quests are a quick and easy way to meet the demands of today's audience.
Or you could look at a lot of those old muds as one big quest. Kill the evil wizard and such.
Quests are more like from pnp dnd.
Bottom line is this for me at least. Quests make Devs Lazy. Why create an abudance of different activities for players when you can just throw quests in there to cover up grinding.
In UO my daily activities varied widely. In themeparks you pretty much have the option of questing or PvP and thats if they have PvP. Crafting is a joke in todays MMO's so not worth including.
It makes every day in an MMO feel like the last which gets boring as hell fast. I wouldn't care about the quests if I had other options.
Give me a variety of things I can do in game. Then you can keep your quests without having to listen to me complain.
I agree with most here. The questing systems that are currently used are ancient, but the reason why they "worked well" in the past was because there weren't an impressive amount of them and they were not made to progress you, but to tell a story or to supply you with an alternate way of acquiring gear. They weren't the only thing you did. The problem is that players are so engrossed on quests that never stop appearing that they don't have time for anything else, but following the next shiny "!". The thing that "mindless killing" (when questing is just as mindless with all of the indicators and auto travel) did was allow people to take a break whenever someone else needed help or they felt like taking a break. If you're in the middle of a quest nowadays, you're probably not going to take the time out to "visit" the world or take in everything else that's in the game.
The problem is that there are two main types of players.... players that want to be immersed into a world....and players that want to just pick up the "controls" and "play" the game.
If you want to discuss this from a more developmental/implemental standpoint... feel free to visit my forum... it could be fun.
Your job or school has objectives, you complete objectives to gain knowledge or money or experience. That is considered a quest. Current questing systems lack luster, they removed the excitment of what a quest really is. It is about growth, and more importantly interaction. Real Life is only what YOU make it, and so is a mmorpg. You think questing is boring, then don't do quests. A game without quests i still a game, but it'll be one HELL of a BORING game. You take out classes and people complain and refuse to play. You take out instances and people complain and refuse to play. You do this, same thing by the same people that voted for it. Now for lazy developers, yes most are lazy. I see laziness from BulletStorm, Skyrim, Rage, CoD, BF3, all the way into the deep soul of WoW, Allods, Diablo3, ect. The point is, quests are errands and jobs, and if you want a true Roleplay experience that you can control, go play table top. Magic the gathering or DnD give a bit of flaire your looking for until that dies to.
Currently, I think Guild Wars 2 didnt go far enough. I think dynamics should be a major standard part of questing, but I want more options, outcomes, rewards, and controls than some standard quest or what GW2 offers. The problem is you want your character, your story, and most games allow for some of YOU in them. The limitations have you burned out believing that you will like it with no quests. OH big poop, shooting out of my arse at 100 mpgh is more exciting than this quest. I remember my friends playing oblivion and saying zomg its soo cool. I remember playing Webzen's Mu Online (look on the mmorpg list) with no quests and its Diablo 2 style. I've lived through no quests, quests and my everyday life seems to have one big errand chain one after another. Jobs to fulfill for rewards, and very little time to stop and think "OH MAYNE REAL LIFE SHOULDN'T HAVE QUESTS!?!" Take a step back, play COD Story and you see those objectives? They are quests / errands w.e. you want to call them. Go into Battlefield, Bomberman, Megaman, Castlevania, Minecraft and you need to complete objectives, and you get rewarded for it.
I struggle not with life, money, emotions, and world, but against old mindsets and selves to be proven obsolete in a age and time of rapid changes. Go create fun, so you can have fun.
Questing should reward you with changes to the world. A good example of good questing is FFXI. You quest to get higher rank in your town/faction. You quest for access to areas. You quest to advance the story and learn more about the world eventually gaining access to areas and quests not available before.
I like questing if it has a REAL story and gives me rewards that make a difference. Not the sad excuse for questing that is currently available (kill x of y, go to NPC xyz for more quests)
Questing is a mechanism for Progression which is one of the pillars of what defines a Themepark MMORPG.
In UO (a Sandbox MMORPG) there were no quests whatsoever, but I played it for 5 years, compared to the 3-6 months I played any other MMORPG (with the exception of SWG Pre NGE) since, speaks volumes of the real value of Quests.
All this is part of marketing, anyways, they Call any mondane job and errand a "Quest" because it sounds more "Epic" within the context of a Fantasy Setting.
But how many years passed between the events that touk place in the Hobbit and the events that touk place in the Lord of The Rings? These were two quests that were special, because they were rare and far in between. Yet, what happened in that in between? normal every day Life that is what happened. But Themepark MMORPG's cannot express that reality, only Sandbox MMORPG's can.
I agree with the OP wholeheartedly as well as many other comments made after it.
- Duke Suraknar -Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Originally posted by redpins "OH MAYNE REAL LIFE SHOULDN'T HAVE QUESTS!?!"
Just from this comment I want to say the following:
Life is a quest, that is certain, but the outcome of those quests aren't always certain. Not to mention, everyone in life doesn't have the same "quest path"....that's the huge problem.... people in real life can choose not to even go to school (which if you ever new Steve Jobs...he abandoned a few quests). Current mmos are predictable to the point where there's not really any difference from day 1 to day 365. There isn't enough randomness and there isn't enough variety.
As with most things in life, a middle ground is usually the best option. Most reasonable people understand that removing quests is unnecessary. However, quests today are equivalent to grinding, and diminish the entire idea of a quest. So, use something like SWG's mission terminals for grinding quests (kill 10 boards for 10gold), and make quests truly quests again. They should be long and adventurous with a good storyline behind them.
When quests actually become quests again, people will care about the story and become more immersed in the game.
Sandbox MMOs still exist. If this is a whole topic about that then why aren't those games topping the sub lists? It's already been explained by countless online reviewers of why people prefer the quest base pavlovian response system. Deal with it and move on.
Funny poke at Quest-Grinding article: http://www.brighthub.com/video-games/mmo/articles/29399.aspx
Quest up, errand-boy.
Originally posted by redpins Your job or school has objectives, you complete objectives to gain knowledge or money or experience. That is considered a quest.
If you woke up in the morning, drove to work, then asked your boss what your "quest for t'day will be," you'd get fired.
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Quests are not a bad idea. In almost every fantasy epic there was a sort of quest of sorts. However, on the other side of the argument, too much of a good thing is...well, bad!
Quests, like raids,shouldn't be handed out like STD's at a Motley Crue concert after party.
They should be special, should require a lot of work, should take time, should require memorable encounters (notice I said encounter, not fight. It doesn't always have to be about killing), and the reward should be sparse but epic.
Quests should be something you work on while your not simply adventuring. Raids should be rarer yet again. They should be special events that occur and a call to arms is issued. Adventurers from across the land sign up to seek the fabled McGuffin, to slay the terrible Blarf or to find the beautiful Princess Louise!
If quests and raids were like this I'm willing to bet people wouldn't mind. I'm also willing to bet that people would appreciate them more and even more so, I'm willing to bet you'd see another thread like this but complaining about how come "I can't has L33t Lewtz!?!?" because I've played the game an entire hour.
Solution? Have simple going out and killing stuff (aka: EQ Grinding), then have local tasks (IE:Go out and kill me 10 scarecrows....and stay away from my daughter!!", then have quests (IE: The person(s) who bring me <insert purpose of quest here> shall recieve gold, a magical item and a unique title, and then raids (IE: Adventurers! The UberSaurus Dragon has come to our lands! It tears down our walls, eats our children and...GASP! Slows our Internet! We need all swords and wands to save us from this blight! We cannot watch Netflix at 380p!!!)
Just my thoughts. =B
Originally posted by Lathial I have played (and tried) pretty much every MMO from UO to Rift and one thing that has become more and more predominant in games is questing. In most games these days you can quest from level one to cap. In my opinion, game companies used the single player quest driven games (like Oblivion, Balders Gate etc) and just added a multiplayer option to them. With SWTOR coming out soon and taking questing to “another level” with voiced actors etc it got me thinking: I think this might be the wrong direction for MMO’s Below are some ideas of why this may be the wrong direction and maybe some suggestions of how to correct this. (This list of ideas is not complete nor is it about one game. It is my opinion of how questing is “hurting” MMO’s) suggestions, additions and comments are welcomed- -questing is “grinding”. It is grinding with powdered sugar sprinkled on top. You still have to kill 1,000 rats but at least you are doing it for a reason. Unfortunately, the reason you are killing rats is so bland that most people do not read or do not care to read why. Most of us have done this so often that it hurts our eyes to read the quests. -quests have no impact on the game. In single player RPG’s you kill the rats and “poof” you can see the results and now all the rats are gone from the sewers. You can re-visit the sewers and all the rats are “still” dead. You made an impact on the game. -questing hurts exploration. Questing guides players through a predetermined set experience. Everyone does the same thing from start to finish. Games do not have to be “worldly” if they have a lot of quests that guide players though the experience. For example, RIFT, is a very small world. There is not a lot of exploring to do in the game and it is so packed with quests that each zone zooms by without impacting your experience. -questing ruins “your story”. I think this is the most important point of them all. “Your story” is being created by the quests. Your character is the result of quests- not the story you created for your character. In single player RPG’s your story is usually grand and you “save the world” and the things you do have an impact upon the game (you killed all the rats in the sewer. Now, there are no more rats in the sewer). In EQ1, UO and other older games, I can only remember a handful of quests. I think there was some basic “turn in rat pelts” and the other quests were epic quests for “epic” rewards. In the in-between-time the player created their own story by exploring and experiencing the game by weaving their own characters quests and story. What if we took the quests out of MMO’s? Why not just created a large explorable world with interesting lore and creatures. Where “living” within this world and learning of its cultures and finding ancient ruins to explore was the “quests”. Remove the predetermined set of experiences (quests) and just release the players into the world and let them create their own stories. If we do this, we won’t be “cookie cutters” of each other. We will truly have our own stories of where we have been and what we have seen and done. Lathial
Great post and I agree. One of the reasons Shadowbane and UO were such great games.
Seriously, GG. Good to see a few people can see past the forrest.
In even old times D&D games they had quests though most would see them as campains, or adventures and in most of these settings you would gain experince from teh quests after finishing them as wel as gaining rewards. I will admit that the current questing system gives you far too much experince for such tasks, or quests you complete. Personally i would like a system of questing where the quest merely gives you a buff to yoru expience buff when you are achieving some that is in the quest (Ie killing mobs for added experince, searching areas, or retrieving items.), yet would also be guiding tool of sorts with not just one areas it would lead you to but several. I liked hwo in alot of games with questing it was not just go and get these quests which would lead you to a certain zone after you finish the frst, but yet you had several choices of path that led you to varying roots thru the zones, this leads to replay ability as well as immersion if done correctly since you feel like your exploits (weither peersonal or not) have traveled. Questing should be a choice for leveling not the best or worst, same as mob grinding, as well as exploring with it granting the same amount of progression per hour as any of the others. I would not want to see a mb grind game where all there is to level by is uests, yet i hate mmo with so mch quests that you have so many you never finish them since outside fo gold and items they are worldless; Though a system where at max level or certain points of yrou leveling you have no quests till you finish a set of story/event completeion of sorts for the zones prior would be interesting (if you used somethign like phasing to show the change as the events/quests completed and changed the zone), i would still like to see it be possible to grind by mobs as well as exloring being possible as well. i once thought about making somethign like a transition raid that would happen at certain levels baring you from advancing into further areas, which could be used with a phasing tool to link changes and the persisitant world together so it feels like the world is changing around you as you progress; THese raids would be where lower non-central but still important figures in the early story are fought and defeated giving the lower player a feel for raiding in a form before end game, as well as showcasing the further developement of the world backstory as well as lurking enemies.
Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by lizardbones MMORPG started without quests. Companies added quests and they made more money.
then blame rf online for introducing quest-based progression to the game..
Questing offers short term goals for people to attain. It also opens up another route for leveling. I also think of leveling as the learning experience for what games are now calling "end game". End game is where you don't get xp for doing quests and you are working on progressing your guild and gear.
There isn't a single game being developed that doesn't have a quest driven leveling experience. Whether you think that is good or bad is up to you but my experience with non-quest games is they get boring fast once the newness and exploration factors are done.
If you don't want a quest based game, buy Minecraft.
I don't mind quests at all,i just think how they are done is the ridiculous part.I don't want a bazillion quests designed to lead me through in linear fashion,it is not a rpg it is a MMORPG.
I want quests to have a design ,even if similiar to FFXI where they had a purpose for RANK and to gain favour,not used as a leveling tool.So i would rather see NO xp,i believe devs used xp as a way to keep from bad feedback,i mean i could see people complaining MORE about quests if not for the free xp handouts or lack of game content.
I would also like to see each player have their own set of quests.This can be done easier than one may think,by having a link to the games entire npc database.For this you would need some sort of FAVOUR /RANK and or point system.So when you goto talk to a npc [anywhere/anytime] they might have a certain quest for you depending on your status.This means NO markers over heads no easy mode hand fed linear progression or easy loot hand outs.
I don't want to solo out questing,but i want to feel "satisfaction" everytime i do something in a game.I actually get a sick feeling when i see peopel constantly "congratulations" when soemone gains a level in these incredibly simple leveling games.There is no satisfaction gaining a level anymore or doing a quest.The few quests that MIGHT feel epic for example in EQ2 are easily ruined by mentoring,so these games just never cease to make things simple mode,without satisfaction.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by Elricmerren In even old times D&D games they had quests though most would see them as campains, or adventures and in most of these settings you would gain experince from teh quests after finishing them as wel as gaining rewards. ....
If my Dungeon Master had said, "OK now you go kill 20 Teenage Rats, the reward will be 30 experience points and 1 gold." I would have walked away and burned my AD and D books.
Originally posted by Nerf09 Originally posted by Elricmerren In even old times D&D games they had quests though most would see them as campains, or adventures and in most of these settings you would gain experince from teh quests after finishing them as wel as gaining rewards. ....
This made me crack up! Thank you! Also, you know- this got me thinking:
This should be the "litmus test" for game designers when adding quests to their games- they have to ask themselves: "If my dungeon master gave me this quest would I walk out and burn my D&D books?"