Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

Idea: Remove questing from MMORPG’s

2456

Comments

  • WintersWolfWintersWolf Gold CoastPosts: 21Member

    Isn't Guild Wars 2 sort of heading in this direction? With the quests being more dynamic and just happening rather than being initiated with a static npc, if it meets the hype it could be the right direction and make the grind feel more natural without interrupting you with mindless npc chatter.

  • ThaneUlfgarThaneUlfgar Akron, OHPosts: 283Member

    No one makes you do the quests, in even the most quest based MMO's. In the two I've played most recently, Warhammer online and WoW, sure, there are quests all over the place, but if you feel like it, you are most welcome to go find an enemy village, keep, group of boars, etc and kill them until your little heart is content.

     

    I think quests are fine as an option, but even in World of Warcraft, you still have the option to do what you want, when you want. There are alternatives to questing as far as progressing your character, so I'm not sure why quests should be removed. Personally, as long as I have options, I'm fine.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    Open world no story/quests only "works" if there is no grind for stats/levels/gear/skills.

    Without story, all you are doing is grinding...

    Real problem is quests in MMOs can hardly be called story because they are so limited by the genre itself.

    Hence, you see TOR and GW2 and TSW taking quests to another level in giving them actual story and meaning and purpose.

     

    All MMOs are a grind, it's just that the good ones hide the grind behind the fun.

     

  • OnigodOnigod Noord-HollandPosts: 688Member

    I believe that a real sandbox mmorpg with a slight themepark feeling to it for the casuals will be the future of mmorpgs.

    Just these days small companies are only creating them with limited recourses  they know that this is what players want and they are fun and all of there concepts sound amazing just there limited recourses and expierience makes the game lacking in many ways, and the big companys these day that just shove a amount of money into a product and make it happen rather stay with something safe.

  • BoreilBoreil Dallas, TXPosts: 448Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Open world no story/quests only "works" if there is no grind for stats/levels/gear/skills.

    Without story, all you are doing is grinding...

    Real problem is quests in MMOs can hardly be called story because they are so limited by the genre itself.

    Hence, you see TOR and GW2 and TSW taking quests to another level in giving them actual story and meaning and purpose.

     

    All MMOs are a grind, it's just that the good ones hide the grind behind the fun.

     

    As long as im  having fun there is no such thing as grind, story/quests or not  .

    image

  • PilnkplonkPilnkplonk zagrebPosts: 1,532Member

    GW2 won't have ANY quests in the open world and the "personal story" bit is optional...

    We'll see how it goes. Maybe this is finally the beginning of the end for the traditional quests in mmos? /crossfingers

    ... and Firefall the F2P mmo shooter is to have dynamic events as the basis of its PvE gameplay. From what I gather "quests" in FF are nothing more than pointers to events already happening in the open world or stuff that you generate yourself (like placing a mining thumper and pulling a sh**load of mobs). So we'll be able to see how "events" work out even before GW2 comes out.. and for free! :D

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by GrayGhost79

    Originally posted by lizardbones
     


    Originally posted by GrayGhost79



    Originally posted by lizardbones
    MMORPG started without quests. Companies added quests and they made more money.



    Yeah UO was 14 years ago. They are still up and running and still able to charge a monthly fee but the facts show the money is clearly in themeparks. 
    AoC - oh wait...... they went free to play. 
    DDO - oh wait...... they went free to play.
    LotRO - oh wait..... they went free to play. 
    STO - Oh wait......... they went free to play. 
    DCUO - Oh wait....... they went free to play. 
    CO - Oh wai........ they went free to play. 
    Surely EQ2 - oh wait they went free to play. 
    You know...... come to think of it. How many themeparks that have come along since EQ1 are still able to charge a monthly fee?
    So sure....... some have made more money by adding quests. WoW, Rift, EQ1.....
    But most seem forced to either go free to play or shut down. 
     





    Making more money is making more money. Doesn't matter if you make more money with box sales, subscription fees or a cash shop.

     


    Hey your right, just because players didn't enjoy the game enough to actually stick around and play it that shouldn't mean anything for an MMO. Long as you get that box sales. Most that play free to plays actually don't spend any cash, those that do though tend to spend a good bit so I will have to give that one to you. 
    But keep in mind, that model seems to be tanking faster and faster with each release. The markets saturated with Themeparks and this is the biggest reason most themeparks fail to hold people or perform well. 
    Also keep in mind some of the best selling games period, Non MMO of course are sandbox. 
    While MMO devs seem to ignore this, at least other devs aren't. 
     



    Players aren't sticking around for games they don't like. That doesn't even make sense. Players are getting something out of the game, even if it's just to pass the time with their friends.

    I think this is how a sandbox proponent sees success and failure. There are more people playing and enjoying Rift right now than are playing Eve, but Rift is a failure and Eve is a success. More people have purchased and played Rift in 7 months than have played Eve in 7 years. But Rift is a failure and Eve is a success. Except Eve has, you guessed it, quests so I guess Eve is actually a failure, disguised as a success.

    Let's go on to single player RPG sandboxes. They are full, full to the brim with quests. You talk to people in the game and you will pick up quests whether you want them or not. Skyrim will be the newest example of this. But of course, those are the games that MMO developers are ignoring. MMO developers are doing anything like what you'd find in a single player RPG. << That's sarcasm.

    Anyway, we're not even talking about sandbox versus theme park. We're talking about quests. If you could make a questless game, that was also compelling, then yeah, it would probably work. The only thing that people have managed to come up with is PvP to replace quests.

    I think the best anyone will come up with is making quests more like conversations and less like checklists. Remove the stupid ones, like handing an object to the guy standing next to you. I don't see it happening any time soon, but somebody will come up with questing content where you don't do it and think to yourself, "I need to finish this quest."

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    Originally posted by Boreil

    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Open world no story/quests only "works" if there is no grind for stats/levels/gear/skills.

    Without story, all you are doing is grinding...

    Real problem is quests in MMOs can hardly be called story because they are so limited by the genre itself.

    Hence, you see TOR and GW2 and TSW taking quests to another level in giving them actual story and meaning and purpose.

    All MMOs are a grind, it's just that the good ones hide the grind behind the fun.

    As long as im  having fun there is no such thing as grind, story/quests or not  .

    Exactly the point.

  • FearTHeFroFearTHeFro elk river, MNPosts: 76Member Uncommon

    I think there should be some sort of option for people who want to quest and those who don't.

     

    Everyone knows in most mmos its near stupid to try to just grind your way to the highest level since questing is so much faster. But there are people out there (like me) who can't stand questing and having to follow a long quest line and all that stuff and would rather just grind it out in my own way. Maybe there is a way to balance out quest rewards vs grinding so that people who enjoy one or the other have a choice and both will get you to the same ending at the same speed.

     

    Mostly this is the reason why I haven't found a good mmo to play for the last 10 years, all of them are the same "kill x amount of enemies, collect x amount of this, go do this" over and over until you are the max level can become extremely boring.

  • HurvartHurvart ystadPosts: 565Member

    Originally posted by FearTHeFro

    I think there should be some sort of option for people who want to quest and those who don't.

     

    Everyone knows in most mmos its near stupid to try to just grind your way to the highest level since questing is so much faster. But there are people out there (like me) who can't stand questing and having to follow a long quest line and all that stuff and would rather just grind it out in my own way. Maybe there is a way to balance out quest rewards vs grinding so that people who enjoy one or the other have a choice and both will get you to the same ending at the same speed.

     

    Mostly this is the reason why I haven't found a good mmo to play for the last 10 years, all of them are the same "kill x amount of enemies, collect x amount of this, go do this" over and over until you are the max level can become extremely boring.

    In most games with quest based levelling the xp you will get for killing a mob is really bad. And often if some are grinding mobs to level anyway the devs will think something needs to be done about it. -Everyone should be doing quest. We dont want people to "grind". And they will nerf mob xp next patch. And perhaps boost quest xp also.... Its very sad. But this attitude is common among devs that work with games that follow the WoW-model. They try to force people to play like they intend the game to be played. And if its possible to do it in other ways its a problem they need to address..

  • LathialLathial Denver, COPosts: 173Member Common

    Originally posted by Dvalon




     


    What if we took the quests out of MMO’s? Why not just created a large explorable world with interesting lore and creatures. Where “living” within this world and learning of its cultures and finding ancient ruins to explore was the “quests”.  Remove the predetermined set of experiences (quests) and just release the players into the world and let them create their own stories.  If we do this, we won’t be “cookie cutters” of each other.  We will truly have our own stories of where we have been and what we have seen and done.


     


    Lathial

    I think Blizzard agree's with you, at least in terms of Diablo, just look at how they are now delivering lore, and quest type data to the player, its done via voice over as the player is out in the field, cains voice groans out your headset explaining some lore about the spiky demon you just killed.

     

    I also think that quests are good but have to agree that they should not be the sole purpose of play, I think all quest hubs should be removed from mmo's there should be no hints where to go, you leave the city and are faced with an open world to explore, while doing so you come accross a field full of rats and some farmer chasing them about, he shouts you over and asks if you will help him kill them, you do so happily killing all his pests for a small reward.

     

    Put quests in or near their objective, make players look around the world to find them brings back exploration, keeps quests, the only quests that you should gain from a central location are epic quests that send out on some epic mission.

     

     

    I think you may have hit the nail on the head.  I really dont think questing should be completely removed. However, in its standard form it should be removed.  Get rid of questing hubs and make exploring and "quests" be something you chance across- like the farmer example you listed is a great example.  It is a quest in real time- you come across a farmer and you help him right then.  You dont accept the quest and come back a few days later- it happens right then and will not be available later.   I know games are trying this now (dynamic quests?) like RIFT did with rifts and how GW2 is doing quests.  

    Questing should feel natural and be something you come across while exploring the world- not pointed out to you- that lead you from zone to zone to zone in a predetermined path.  Like finding a acient ruin where you decipher some old lore that leads you on a search for someone who may kno more about it.  Eventually you speak with a elder and he progresses the story and lore further- where eventually you are searching for clues about a lost culture and find some old ruins filled with mobs etc.  

    However, quests should not hold your hand.  What is the purpose of doing quests when you are told where to go with "glowing arrows" - that is not questing- that is more like playing simon says or follow the leader.  When we think of questing in the real world- think of something like archeology (not wow archeology).  Archeologists are not given a map with arrows pointing to the exact spot to dig.  They have to take the clues they are given and try to figure out what to do next.

    Lath

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

    Originally posted by Lathial

     


    I have played (and tried) pretty much every MMO from UO to Rift and one thing that has become more and more predominant in games is questing.   In most games these days you can quest from level one to cap.  In my opinion, game companies used the single player quest driven games (like Oblivion, Balders Gate etc) and just added a multiplayer option to them.  With SWTOR coming out soon and taking questing to “another level” with voiced actors etc it got me thinking: I think this might be the wrong direction for MMO’s


     


    Below are some ideas of why this may be the wrong direction and maybe some suggestions of how to correct this.  (This list of ideas is not complete nor is it about one game.  It is my opinion of how questing is “hurting” MMO’s) suggestions, additions and comments are welcomed-


     


    -questing is “grinding”.  It is grinding with powdered sugar sprinkled on top.  You still have to kill 1,000 rats but at least you are doing it for a reason. Unfortunately, the reason you are killing rats is so bland that most people do not read or do not care to read why.   Most of us have done this so often that it hurts our eyes to read the quests.


     


    -quests have no impact on the game.  In single player RPG’s you kill the rats and “poof” you can see the results and now all the rats are gone from the sewers.  You can re-visit the sewers and all the rats are “still” dead.  You made an impact on the game.


     


    -questing hurts exploration.  Questing guides players through a predetermined set experience.  Everyone does the same thing from start to finish.  Games do not have to be “worldly” if they have a lot of quests that guide players though the experience.  For example, RIFT, is a very small world.  There is not a lot of exploring to do in the game and it is so packed with quests that each zone zooms by without impacting your experience.


     


    -questing ruins “your story”.  I think this is the most important point of them all.  “Your story” is being created by the quests.  Your character is the result of quests- not the story you created for your character.   In single player RPG’s your story is usually grand and you “save the world” and the things you do have an impact upon the game (you killed all the rats in the sewer. Now, there are no more rats in the sewer).  In EQ1, UO and other older games, I can only remember a handful of quests.  I think there was some basic “turn in rat pelts” and the other quests were epic quests for “epic” rewards.   In the in-between-time the player created their own story by exploring and experiencing the game by weaving their own characters quests and story. 


     


    What if we took the quests out of MMO’s? Why not just created a large explorable world with interesting lore and creatures. Where “living” within this world and learning of its cultures and finding ancient ruins to explore was the “quests”.  Remove the predetermined set of experiences (quests) and just release the players into the world and let them create their own stories.  If we do this, we won’t be “cookie cutters” of each other.  We will truly have our own stories of where we have been and what we have seen and done.


     


    Lathial

    I long for the days where I camped NPC spots in Everquest 1.



      Also I kept hitting "NEXT" with that wall of text, didn't hear your voiceover.

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Open world no story/quests only "works" if there is no grind for stats/levels/gear/skills.

    Without story, all you are doing is grinding...

    Imagine World of Warcraft with no quests and levels, a much bigger world of course, where you can mine rocks or hire NPC's to mine rocks, NPC's walking back and forth to a blacksmith you just constructed.  You slowly build up stone, wood, copper, tin, etc.  Then in an hour if no enemy player attacks you you have enough materials to build a Norman Tower (you're a human player).  In next 5 minutes you build a barracks next to it to churn out soldiers, and enchant your solder's weapons cause your an enchanter.  OMG AN ENEMY PLAYER SHOWS UP TRAILING 10 SOLDER NPC'S and 10 ARCHER NPC'S!!!!!!!

    .

    .

    .

    story to be continued, never.  Cause you guys would rather do flex emotes in front of the auction house in your glowing armor than own a castle, how sad.  I'd rather own a castle with an army of NPC's.

    "The story" in this game is war, player politics, economy, and making your civilization look cool by decorating your stuff.  Sort of a cross between MMORPG and RTS.

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

    Originally posted by ThaneUlfgar

    No one makes you do the quests, in even the most quest based MMO's. In the two I've played most recently, Warhammer online and WoW, sure, there are quests all over the place, but if you feel like it, you are most welcome to go find an enemy village, keep, group of boars, etc and kill them until your little heart is content.

     

    Wrong, you are forced to quest.  If you don't quest you'll end up at level 20 wearing rags and wielding a starter rusted axe.

  • MundusMundus BerlinPosts: 237Member

    Originally posted by Lathial

     


    I have played (and tried) pretty much every MMO from UO to Rift and one thing that has become more and more predominant in games is questing.   In most games these days you can quest from level one to cap.  In my opinion, game companies used the single player quest driven games (like Oblivion, Balders Gate etc) and just added a multiplayer option to them. 

    Stopped reading there. Seriously, Baldur's Gate 'etc.' are not quest-based. In my opinion the more recent quest-based 'RPG's are a sorry excuse for an RPG.

    In the olden days with the real RPGs such as Baldur's Gate or KOTOR I never had the feeling of just working off a list of 'quests' like a chore. You were just progressing through the story and helped some people along the way. Authentic people in an authentic world with authentic problems. Not "will you please take this letter and pass it to the guy 10 ft behind me please?" bullshit.

    Also there were no stupid exclamation marks above people's heads.

    I don't like 'modern' RPGs and don't get me started with MMOs. They all suck. Well, that is except the ones that are not quest-based. So yeah I (probably?) agree. Screw 'quests' or what they have become.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,453Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Boreil anyway mmorpg's dont need to do away with quests all together , but they need to do away with all the 1000 Bs quests you get in between the real quests with meaning . Quests should be about Lore , story and the world around it ,there can still be all those kill 10 of this or go fetch this quest , but present them in a diferent way , not as actual quest content , have traders who send you out for gathering things for them as "hunter/gather" tasks , even have a task board's  in citys to pick up hunt and kill tasks if you want , but make actual quests real and mean something . Take leveling up totaly out of questing , thats what grouping  is for.

    This pretty much says it.

    Questing is not grinding.

    The way that newer games have implemented quests is. It's ridiculous to come up with "thousands of quests" that are essetnailly the same thing.

    If it hasnt' been said in this thread already, questing as it is implemented doesn't even seem to be about the mobs you kill (assuming that they are mostly kill x quests) but are about the large chunk of xp and the reward you get. This is what players are honing in on.

    If they were to eliminate the large chunk of xp at the end of the quest, fewer players would be doing them. At least as they are currently implemented.

     

     

  • DvalonDvalon IrvinePosts: 314Member Uncommon

    I think this is all mute TBH.

     

    If you remove quests, your still going to be out ina  field killing tons of boars, only now, your not really doing it for anything, other than to be the guy that kills all the boars, if you do it via a quest, then you kill some and get out the way so the next guy can come and do the same.

     

    One of the biggest problems with those other games is that you end up with a field full of dead bores, and 50 people standing around all trying to ninja the next one as it spawns, iv seen this, hell iv done it, its annoying, in this respect question is a good thing.

     

    What I would do is remove all the quest rewards, lets face it most of the time their crap that wouldnt have been good even if you got them 5 levels ago, so strip out all green , white, ie crap quest rewards, keep blue quest rewards for those harder longer quests.

     

    in turn on those dull kill x boars type quests instead of hading the payer an item he will sell to a vendor, 99..999% of the time, just hand him more gold, or give him repoutition that counts for something later in the game, do something ELSE, other than giving out rewards the player wont even use, or want.

  • AlotAlot BredaPosts: 1,948Member

    Better idea: Let's remove MMORPGs from questing.

  • CorehavenCorehaven Colorado Springs, COPosts: 1,538Member

    I just cant agree with the OP. 

     

    Questing provides context for action.  It provides a story or at least a goal.  Mindless carnage is not fun in my opinion.  This can be applied to any form of entertainment.  If Im watching an action movie, it better have some decent context.  If its just things blowing up and mindless action I get bored very quickly and no amount of watching guys get shot or people getting knocked out is going to matter. 

     

    Games can be a bit different in that they are interactive.  But a good solid goal give context to what Im doing and why and thats a big plus in my opinion. 

  • MadimorgaMadimorga Atlanta, GAPosts: 2,014Member Common

    Originally posted by Corehaven

    I just cant agree with the OP. 

     

    Questing provides context for action.  It provides a story or at least a goal.  Mindless carnage is not fun in my opinion.  This can be applied to any form of entertainment.  If Im watching an action movie, it better have some decent context.  If its just things blowing up and mindless action I get bored very quickly and no amount of watching guys get shot or people getting knocked out is going to matter. 

     

    Games can be a bit different in that they are interactive.  But a good solid goal give context to what Im doing and why and thats a big plus in my opinion. 

     

    I like mindless carnage.  I like it far better than being some insignificant NPC's rat killing lackey.  Mindless carnage has a soothing repetitiveness that is nterrupted when I have to scurry back to my NPC overlords to hand in quests and get new ones.

    image

    I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

    ~Albert Einstein

  • EzhaeEzhae LondonPosts: 737Member

    MMOs without quests worked in ye old days for same reason all other mechanics worked back then. It was niche hobby for a hardcore group, that not only had access to internet, which itself was not as common as it is now, but also enjoyed RPGs and computer games in general. 

     

    Thing is, these days, where you have much less "hardcore" audience, companies need to cater to the more "casual" crowd, whenever You like it or not. Questing is one of those features that gives a player a visible progress. Sure you could kill 50 boars and get 1/10 of level up, but finishing a quest, with a guaranteed reward and a decent XP boost is much better way to close the day, to feel that you've actually done something in relatievely short time window. 

     

    The problem with quests is that they haven't evolved much since the first implementation. They are pretty much the same quests for all those years, just mob names change. It will be interesting to see how GW2's event-quests will work out as i see it as a step in good direction. Rather than a stuck in ground NPC with ! above their heads telling Yyou to kill 10 boars, you will have more dynamic setting with progressing quest-events that have multiple paths to finish and can progress both ways. 

    And no. It's not the same as Public Quests from WAR, it's mor eof a step above the Rift...rifts. 

     

    Thing is, with video games, You are limited by technology. You will never get the same freedom like You would have in pen and paper RPG, there will never be real variety in how things can be approached. Games are entertainment, MMOs generally,w ith few exceptions, are action genre. I can't really see any valid way of re-designing the system drasticly at this point. 

  • xDayxxDayx St Charles, MOPosts: 712Member

    I think there can be casual games for the audience that the above is mentioning. And there can be sandbox games and sandpark games for those who dont like quests. People will pay for what they like. Some might be considered niche, and others may be considered mainstream, thus is the market nowadays.

  • EzhaeEzhae LondonPosts: 737Member

    Originally posted by xDayx

    I think there can be casual games for the audience that the above is mentioning. And there can be sandbox games and sandpark games for those who dont like quests. People will pay for what they like. Some might be considered niche, and others may be considered mainstream, thus is the market nowadays.

    Of course there can. But then You have people complaining that said sandbox games don't have the same level of polish and quality as the big productions.... not realizing that at some point a load of money needs ot be involved, and money doesn't grow on trees. Games, like every other business is based off cautious calculations. People with money to invest into producing a game won't do it on large scale with something that will appeal just to few if they can get a better outcome from something else. 

    There have been plenty of attempts at indie MMO with Darkfall and Mortal Online being the notable example of the recent and they don't really fare so well, they aren't able to establish a large playerbase while even so called "WoW Clones" are able to at least earn some cash from box sales/first 3 months even if it means shutting down a few months later. 

  • ElricmerrenElricmerren White Bear Lake, MNPosts: 295Member

    I would not say that it is the quest er say since things respwning is going to happen as a non quest or quest based mmo anyway. It is more that grinding mobs and grinding quests need to be streamline so that you gain the same rough exerince either way you do it. Your teling me that you killing ten boars or whatever that respawn in a non questing game is different then in a quest based one? The one that would help is things like retrieval of unique items in the world being able to be doen rarer then they are to make it that less get to do it.

  • PuremallacePuremallace Phoenix, AZPosts: 1,856Member

    Originally posted by udon

    Sounds like Minecraft is the game for you.

    I was about to say GW2 might be what the OP is looking for. They are taking the questing model and throwing it out and going more with objectives. Instead of goto x location and kill 10 rats you are given objectives that  tell you something is going on and you can choose to or not choose to act on that info.

     

     

Sign In or Register to comment.