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The sad pvp fact confirmed at NYC Comicon

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  • czekoskwigelczekoskwigel dfs, MSPosts: 458Member

    Originally posted by afhn2110

    The worst part of this, is that it does make sense to have open world pvp...I get that some don't want it, and I respect that there are different types of players, but you can make pvp make sense in any game.  More and more games are beginning to have pve and pvp servers, which is great.  Here's the problem that i'm starting to see though.  Pver's want the more content driven story lines, pvpers want the open world and I can kill who I want when I need to, etc.  So you would think that its a simple solution, give the pver's waht they want and then make a pvp server for the pvpers.  Well...thats not happening because the pve community is far more vocal and active in forums,e tc...so the pvers get what they want, then the pvers begin saying what they want on a pvp server, so we get a pve server with no pvp, then a pvp server with so many guidelines that its still making the pver's happy and the pvpers get nothing.  I will say, SWTOR seems to have it right, they will be catering to both sides...I didn't think they were...but they have. Wow, they did it right...like the game or not...they have a true pve and pvp server (many)  Game developers need to really look at this as the way to go...

    They have made pvp that makes sense in this game... it's simply not open world, which would NOT make sense.

  • VhalnVhaln Chicago, ILPosts: 3,159Member

    For some of us, instanced battlegrounds never make sense.  In any MMO.

    When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,924Member Uncommon

    Lets face it, free world PvP for what it is for, tends to be "Player against Player who stands no chance". There really is little actually 'competition', most fighting being rather one sided. I'm not at all against it. Free pvp everywhere usually causes more grief then fun, unless your one of those players finding fun out of killing someone who stands no chance. 

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member

    So does this mean we wont even have so called PvP lakes, in the persistant world like Warhammer Online?

    If not then this game is out of the question for me. PvE plus battlegrounds is simply not enough to hold my interest.

    But I cannot say I am surprised. This is Funcom after all and they have never been good at doing PvP.

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member

    Originally posted by Vhaln

    For some of us, instanced battlegrounds never make sense.  In any MMO.

    They make sense for PvP training but for real PvP, open world is the only way that works well.

  • xKingdomxxKingdomx SydneyPosts: 1,541Member

    Originally posted by Purutzil

    Lets face it, free world PvP for what it is for, tends to be "Player against Player who stands no chance". There really is little actually 'competition', most fighting being rather one sided. I'm not at all against it. Free pvp everywhere usually causes more grief then fun, unless your one of those players finding fun out of killing someone who stands no chance. 

    Agree.

     

    In a perfect world, open world PvP works. But most MMO players are mostly number crunchers, they don't do anything that are risky. They like to know they have a good chance on winning before going into battle. The fact that for PvP, your gear is the 95% winning factor, makes it so that, if you aren't weel equipped to take on tougher opponents, you most probably won't do it anyways. Thats why MMO have parsers and meters to show your numbers, and compare it with others. MMO combat is about having the highest number.

     

    And worse is that MMO developers don't even try to disguise the fact.

    How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
    As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member

    Originally posted by xKingdomx

    Originally posted by Purutzil

    Lets face it, free world PvP for what it is for, tends to be "Player against Player who stands no chance". There really is little actually 'competition', most fighting being rather one sided. I'm not at all against it. Free pvp everywhere usually causes more grief then fun, unless your one of those players finding fun out of killing someone who stands no chance. 

    Agree.

     

    In a perfect world, open world PvP works. But most MMO players are mostly number crunchers, they don't do anything that are risky. They like to know they have a good chance on winning before going into battle. The fact that for PvP, your gear is the 95% winning factor, makes it so that, if you aren't weel equipped to take on tougher opponents, you most probably won't do it anyways. Thats why MMO have parsers and meters to show your numbers, and compare it with others. MMO combat is about having the highest number.

     

    And worse is that MMO developers don't even try to disguise the fact.

    You are make very general statements about PvP. First of all it depends on the game about how much equipment is winning factor. For example in Asherons Call your gear was maybe 33% of the factor, another 33% your level/skills and the last 33% your skills as a player. But in games like WAR then yes, gear was the biggest deciding factor.

    Also about going into PvP or not, it again depends on the game. Games like Eve, where the death penalty is huge, then yes. Most people wont get into a battle unless they know they will win. But in games like WAR, where death means almost nothing, you have people engaging into PvP alot more recklessly.

    So it all depends on how the designers design the game.

  • cheyanecheyane Rome Posts: 3,002Member Uncommon

    I do not mind PvP as long as there is no looting. I like to PvP for fun but the minute the other side starts to get loot rights and stuff I am out of that game. I enjoyed PvP in WoW when they had that open world stuff in Tarren Mills. I also liked the BGs when your honor deteriorated week by week.

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  • DarkPonyDarkPony RotterdamPosts: 5,566Member

    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    Originally posted by Tardcore


    Originally posted by DarkPony


    Originally posted by Shoju


    Originally posted by DarkPony



    Don't deny those who love world pvp their fun, I am not denying you your fun (on pve servers) either.

    They aren't denying anyone any fun.  They just aren't making the type of game that you are looking for.   

    Yes, by denying me my fun. Is it so hard to place yourself in someone else's shoes?

    If they would have announced: World PVP servers only, I personally would have understood people protesting about that very well.

    In my eyes, mmorpg's not catering for both kind of playstyles are doing it wrong and are bound to invoke the wrath of those who feel left out. Which makes my stance on this very predictable and reasonable, really.

    :: said in Beaver Cleaver voice :: But gee, Pony, ya know that anyone who likes open world PVP are automaticlly griefing douche bags who only ever pick fights with those many levels below them, and never ever, get killed by more powerful players themselves. They can't possibly be players who enjoy testing their mettle and taking risks against actuall human opponents because NPC AI's can't fight their way out of a paper bag. And also players that hate open world PVP yet build their characters on a server with a PVP ruleset anyway are automatically exempt from having to participate. And have every right to throw a screaming wobbler if another player even gives them a meaningful look. How dare we ruin their fun. Its great a company finally decided to just make sure these lilly white saints won't have to worry about being party to such cruel fortunes of fate by just freezing the open world PVP player base out entirely, and only allowing PVP in sanctioned and sanitized areas where it won't upset anyone.

     

    It also makes perfect sense to create factions with incredibly juxtiposed ideals that prety much hate each other, yet all of them are polite enough not to ever attack each other in public. You know, just like how it happens in the real world.

    /sarcasm off

    Oh well *bleep* it. TSW just slipped right off my radar.

    An awfully long diatribe there Tard just to say you like ganking lowbies.  The kind of pvp you could find in Lineage or DAoC is so long gone.  Open world pvp was fun then, but now it's just AoC White Sands style gankfests where people gank lowbies that have no chance.

    Open pvp has ruined itself and pushed itself out of the mainstream.  Basically the gankers have no one to blame but themselves.  The rest of the mmo world, including people love pvp, don't want to play with people like that.

    FFA works in FPS because everyone is on a more level playing field.  FFA doesn't work in MMOs for fairly obvious reasons.

    This is already going to be a niche game, they would be shooting themselves in the foot if they made it ffa pvp.  Maybe you guys will get lucky and they'll give you a pvp server.

    That was my awfully long diatribe to say, I have no sympathy for the gankers.

    You should read it again, though. Doesn't look like you got his points ... at all.

     

  • NymandusNymandus Greenville, SCPosts: 26Member

    That is great news.

     

    In my experience, the more pvp in a game, the more:

    1. Balancing Issues

    2. Class nerfs

    3. Stat nerfs

    4. Item nerfs

    5. more patches

    6. Forum rage over too many nerfs

    7. Forum rage over not enough nerfs

    8. Crying

    9. Rage quits

     

    Etc. etc. So the less pvp in the world the better.

  • DarkPonyDarkPony RotterdamPosts: 5,566Member

    Originally posted by Nymandus

    That is great news.

     

    In my experience, the more pvp in a game, the more:

    1. Balancing Issues

    2. Class nerfs

    3. Stat nerfs

    4. Item nerfs

    5. more patches

    6. Forum rage over too many nerfs

    7. Forum rage over not enough nerfs

    8. Crying

    9. Rage quits

     

    Etc. etc. So the less pvp in the world the better.

    Balance issues will also surface with only instanced pvp. Or are you saying that people shouldn't compete with eachother in combat AT ALL in mmorpg's? Kind of defeats the purpose of playing one in the first place for me.

     

     

     

  • xKingdomxxKingdomx SydneyPosts: 1,541Member

    Originally posted by Yamota

    Originally posted by xKingdomx


    Originally posted by Purutzil

    Lets face it, free world PvP for what it is for, tends to be "Player against Player who stands no chance". There really is little actually 'competition', most fighting being rather one sided. I'm not at all against it. Free pvp everywhere usually causes more grief then fun, unless your one of those players finding fun out of killing someone who stands no chance. 

    Agree.

     

    In a perfect world, open world PvP works. But most MMO players are mostly number crunchers, they don't do anything that are risky. They like to know they have a good chance on winning before going into battle. The fact that for PvP, your gear is the 95% winning factor, makes it so that, if you aren't weel equipped to take on tougher opponents, you most probably won't do it anyways. Thats why MMO have parsers and meters to show your numbers, and compare it with others. MMO combat is about having the highest number.

     

    And worse is that MMO developers don't even try to disguise the fact.

    You are make very general statements about PvP. First of all it depends on the game about how much equipment is winning factor. For example in Asherons Call your gear was maybe 33% of the factor, another 33% your level/skills and the last 33% your skills as a player. But in games like WAR then yes, gear was the biggest deciding factor.

    Also about going into PvP or not, it again depends on the game. Games like Eve, where the death penalty is huge, then yes. Most people wont get into a battle unless they know they will win. But in games like WAR, where death means almost nothing, you have people engaging into PvP alot more recklessly.

    So it all depends on how the designers design the game.

    Sorry I guess I should've specific a bit more. But yeah, I was commenting on modern MMORPG, Asheron Call is a bit old to be called modern? I haven't played it so I don't really know about it.

    Also most modern MMORPG, WAR included, is the whole level segregation, level presents too much of a barrier for anyone to overcome, no matter how skillful they are. Yea, you see more people in WAR engage in PvP recklessly, but you don't see them go up against people higher level than them because they know there are absolutely no chance for them.

    There isn't much design to do in a typical MMORPG, too much design restrictions, every one of them plays out in the same way. Health bar, hot key bar, tab target, Attack Points, mana, crafting, explorations. Is there any variations?

    How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
    As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.

  • SirBalinSirBalin Joppa, MDPosts: 1,150Member Uncommon

    I'm just going to go ahead and say what every true pvper reading this forum is thinking...all of you saying things like, "open world pvp is not fun" or "open world pvp is just for gankers and doesn't make sense" or "open world pvp is so stupid and takes no skill"  well...these are the comments of the BADS.  Most of you are just good at pve, but suck at pve...so, you don't like it because you are bad...but don't call the open world pvp system bad.  I bet if you guys were winning those open world fights, you wouldn't be saying these things...

     

    The only thing you need in an open pvp setting (ffa) is a important karma system with major consenquences, such as L2.  As far as faction based, you should always be able to attack opposing factions when you are against each other.

    Incognito
    www.incognito-gaming.us
    "You're either with us or against us"

  • cinoscinos LondonPosts: 963Member

    Originally posted by DarkPony

    Originally posted by Cik_Asalin

    So just like SW:TOR, TSW will also be a CORPG, falsely labeled as a massively-multiplayer online game, unless ones definition of MMO is 100's of players cooperating and competing in text-writing/chatting within a general chat-box simultaneoulsy.

    Shows you know very little about Swtor.

    Which will in fact offer pvp servers with open world pvp as well as objective based world pvp with territorial control on all kinds of servers. (and also a means to get your pvp gear just through world pvp if you dislike instanced pvp).

    TSW is much more shaping up like GW2: Three factions yet no pvp in the open game world, to name two smashing similarities.

     

    Considering that world pvp in ToR doesn't start till around lvl 30, I'm thinking you are overestimating the pvp experience Bioware are making.

    You can't even really do the objectives on the pvp planet till you are lvl 50.

     

    On a side note, you keep banging on about this whole world pvp and GW2's lack of it, but I already explained to you months ago that the 'mysts' are in essence a pvp zone where you are flagged the moment you enter. How is this any different from world pvp in any other MMO? You have safe zones and you have zones where you are flagged to be ganked. If the only difference is that entering the mysts may not be 'seamless' then I think you are underestimating what this pvp could potentially offer.

    Edit: One more point. You can enter the mysts and start 'open world' pvping from the start of the game (excepting tutorial of course). You can even lvl to 80 just by pvping in the mysts. This is not something you can do in ToR through open world pvp alone.

  • MMOrUSMMOrUS great yarmouthPosts: 414Member

    Originally posted by lizardbones

     




    Originally posted by Sebali

    while i dont need massive open world pvp, i do need some form of it. its a shame, was really looking forward to this








    At what point were you expecting this to be an open world pvp game? They said, before now, that this was not an open world PvP game. The world is PvE, where you can group with anyone, regardless of faction, and the PvP happens in the battle grounds or the open pvp zones.



     

    This is how I understood the game would function, not another niche PvP game, but one that focuses on PvE.

    However I can see the 3 faction element of the game being expanded apon, either via a future patch or more likely in an expansion, it would be a missed opportunity to totally ignore the PvP possibilties, and the fact alot of gamers have been looking for a decent 3 faction game after DAoC.

     

     

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

    In my experience, unless the pvp is designed in from the start as 'open world pvp', then it doesn't add anything to the game. In this particular case, even in the initial planning stages, PvP was never going to be in the open world. It was going to happen in the hollow earth, away from everything else.

    Having open world PvP would not add anything to this game as designed. It would, in fact, take away from the game as people are expected to complete PvE content with groups that can be made up of all three factions.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • GrintchGrintch Tampa, FLPosts: 42Member Uncommon

    Has anyone ever thought for a minute that maybe PVP is not as popular as you think?

  • askdabossaskdaboss LondonPosts: 631Member Common

    Originally posted by Grintch

    Has anyone ever thought for a minute that maybe PVP is not as popular as you think?

    Yep. Now let me ask you: have you thought for a minute that maybe PvP is more popular than you think?

    On topic, though, as pointed out by other people, they said that from the beginning (that game would not be open world PvP).

    That aside, there will be faction conflict in the "open world" (i.e. the PvE world), but if I understand properly it will be about keeping information secret and making your faction progress faster than the others rather than basic armed conflict over strategic objectives.

    I find that rather consistent with the chosen setting and lore (OUR modern world) where you don't see people from corporations running around with guns... Now, what happens in the background (mists, battlegrounds, etc.) is another story.

  • DarkPonyDarkPony RotterdamPosts: 5,566Member

    Originally posted by cinos

    Originally posted by DarkPony


    Originally posted by Cik_Asalin

    So just like SW:TOR, TSW will also be a CORPG, falsely labeled as a massively-multiplayer online game, unless ones definition of MMO is 100's of players cooperating and competing in text-writing/chatting within a general chat-box simultaneoulsy.

    Shows you know very little about Swtor.

    Which will in fact offer pvp servers with open world pvp as well as objective based world pvp with territorial control on all kinds of servers. (and also a means to get your pvp gear just through world pvp if you dislike instanced pvp).

    TSW is much more shaping up like GW2: Three factions yet no pvp in the open game world, to name two smashing similarities.

     

    Considering that world pvp in ToR doesn't start till around lvl 30, I'm thinking you are overestimating the pvp experience Bioware are making.

    How long does it take to get there? A few weeks on average? I'm fine with that. I'm ok with getting your bearing and get used to a game, your class and enjoy the story for a while.

    You can't even really do the objectives on the pvp planet till you are lvl 50.

    If so: we'll all end up there sooner or later. But next to that, on pvp servers you can go out and explore to find your enemy faction much earlier if you so desire. There are pvp related objectives on other planets too. (Not that I need those incentives very much: I prefer the RP'd group pvp incentives you can come up with yourself as a player).

    On a side note, you keep banging on about this whole world pvp and GW2's lack of it, but I already explained to you months ago that the 'mysts' are in essence a pvp zone where you are flagged the moment you enter. How is this any different from world pvp in any other MMO? You have safe zones and you have zones where you are flagged to be ganked. If the only difference is that entering the mysts may not be 'seamless' then I think you are underestimating what this pvp could potentially offer.

    Please note I wasn't even that judgemental in above post. I just noted the similarities between TSW and GW2.

    And please note: I never said that WvWvW can't be a lot of fun.

    ... but it is no open world pvp, which doesn't only bring pvp encounters, but also excitement. Having to be on your guard while you are out in the world doing other stuff, helping friends and guildies out facestomping gankers, fighting over objectives YOU picked , rather than those the game picked for you. Building reputations and cherrishing wraths for others who also play on your server, just to name just a few aspects in which WvWvW is not the same as world pvp.

    It isn't so much about how much fun the Mysts will be, to me it is about the lack of freedom and excitement in the rest of the gameworld. I hope you understand that.

    Edit: One more point. You can enter the mysts and start 'open world' pvping from the start of the game (excepting tutorial of course). You can even lvl to 80 just by pvping in the mysts. This is not something you can do in ToR through open world pvp alone.

    That's cool. I just hope it won't be boring and "same old, same old" once you finally get to level 80. I'm fine with limited access to world pvp at earlier levels if that means there won't be too much artificial stat-boosting mechanics in place.

    Orangy bits be mine. Peace <3

  • TellufortisTellufortis lodPosts: 1Member

    The OP fails to mention that PVP will take place in ahuge PVP section of the world, just forgot the name of it. It supposed to be underground where the faction are fighting for controling some source of energy called anima or something. This is clearly a lesson learned from AOC that open world PVP is bad. Just concntrate it all at one place, tie it to the story, and you get yourself a good and healthy PVP game. By the way the developers mention that in almost every interview.

  • RemainsRemains MalmöPosts: 375Member

    My guess is they're going for the WoW-model for PvP. minus the PvP-server ruleset image

    In other words: instanced pvp areas, and "open" pvp areas (like Wintergrasp).

    Then why no pvp-servers..? Maybe the game is too scripted for it to work very well. The quests seem to be heavy on the storytelling, like the one with the car park(?), where an Illuminati goes in and "OH, there's a Templar on the monitor there, and OH now the light went out and yadda yadda."

    That might not work very well with random factional pvp all over, even if all participants were in on it. It would probably just end up too messy for Ragnars delicate senses, even if it sounds like a blast to me. image

  • MaquiameMaquiame Posts: 795Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by afhn2110

    Originally posted by Maquiame

    Ragnar had a pretty good explanation why the world pvp isn't there. The game is called "THE SECRET WORLD", how much of a secret would this world be if the factions where dueling it out on fifth avenue out in the open? These organizations according to the world storyline are not supposed to exist, can't prove you don't exist by me putting a bullet into your head in broad daylight.

    Come on people, its a mmoR-P-G!

    *note the RPG part of the acronym ladies and gentlemen

    I swear I don't know why pvpers dont just play fps and just keep it moving. (im guessing all of you will be over Planetside 2? God I hope so)

    Yes it may be a lame excuse, but it makes sense. (I was there, I was the one who asked about other factions besides the three you get to choose from, and they confirmed that there will be other secret organizations, one of them called The Phoenicians and the other tied into South Africa.

    For the same reason you don't  just play single player rpg's...now stop crying because some people were upset about the game not having open world pvp...its simply a conversation.  Also, Ragnars main reason for not having the open world pvp was NOT because of the societies being secret...that was a small part of it.  The reason was because the societies need to work together to win, that said a governing body enforces that the groups not fight one another. 

     

     1. Single player rpgs don't have other players playing them, games like Call of Duty do, soooo I do not get your point, my point is there are games out there with PLENTY of killing ther people (that rely on skill not numbers, which imo is better anyway) 

    2. Who is crying, the only ones here who are crying are those looking for a DAoC game

    3. Three yes he did say that as well as far as the story, but he also said what I said. Again I was there and got to ask a question.

    4. Just for those who think I am some pve carebear, I am not, but I do not think that pvp is the end all be all, hell I just recently lvled a toon in WOW strictly on BG's. I personally would like a open world pvp game IF IT MADE SENSE as far as the story went and if the story mattered and it wasn't some straight up doesn't mean anything to the world kill fest. If it had a good story reason, and there was a lot of story attached to it, and it was a good game I would be all over world pvp, but by judging the posts here many of the pvpers don't give a damn about the story they just want to kill people. Hence my RPG reminder statement. I will say it again, if you just want to kill people and you don't care about the story why not just play a online fps? Or just wait for Planetside 2. Story wise here it does not make sense, the game is an rpg, so are we saying that a rpg should not care about its story, which has always been the FIRST focus of an R P G?

     

    image

    Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!

  • AKASlaphappyAKASlaphappy Boise, IDPosts: 800Member

    Originally posted by Kelthius

    All the people saying they hate World PvP are mentioning Aion and Darkfall? One is faction vs faction the other is FFA. If anything, you would need to compare this game to DAOC in terms of World PvP. 3 Factions make a huge difference in the way it is set up. Having no World PvP is just stupid imo.



    I love the irony of this post when DAOC main PVP was the frontiers not just people running around every where ganking anyone and everyone. But people like forgetting that and saying man I wish the good old days of world PVP like DAOC would return when DAOC PVP was nothing like what they are asking for! From the things I have read about TSW they are going to have PVP lakes that are really similar to the frontier system of DAOC, they are just not going to have pure open world PVP. 


     


     


    But we all know every game has to have full open world PVP to be good right? After all that is why DAOC sucked because it did not have full open world PVP!          /end sarcasm


  • IsaneIsane EnglandPosts: 2,629Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Senadina

    Sorry you're heartbroken but I'm thrilled. I hate open world PvP. I might still be playing Aion except for the annoyance of getting ganked by a toon 20 levels above me while questing. No fun imo.

    This is good news some of the developers are starting to realise why some previous MMOs have gone terribly wrong . Hopefully this will start the removal ofOpen World PvP from MMOs and put it clearly back into the genres where it fits.

    ________________________________________________________
    Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel 

  • RemainsRemains MalmöPosts: 375Member

    It seems some people think the setting of a "secret war" is a huge obstacle for open world pvp: I disagree, to me it looks like a missed opportunity to do something cool with.

    When I picture a "secret war", I see battles in dark alleys and in abandoned buildings, but theres no need to hide it away in separate zones or instances, quite the opposite: they could have a system that heavily punish the fighters if they are spotted by NPCs passing by. image

    The more public area they fight in, the greater the risk. If spotted (or even heard: explosions and such) they could get a secret police after them, or even THEIR OWN faction. The players should be alerted that they're about to be busted so they could try to get away.  image

    If caught by their faction they should get very heavily penalized by reduced faction standing and/or a large fee in currency, or something else as long as its a serious punishent.

    THAT would be amazing in my opinion, but I guess thats for another game. Maybe WoD will have something like this, who knows..?

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