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General: Game Piracy is B.S.

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  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel houston, TXPosts: 7,273Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by GreenHell

     

     

     

    You'll never understand that taking software is wrong. Lets address your questions because people obviously don't understand:

    First:

    Stealing is only wrong depending on the circumstances and the perception of the people involved. Look through out history and tell me I am wrong. 

    You are wrong.

     

    But what if I could make a copy of that car? If I had a magic cloning device? Would that still be stealing?

     

    Yes. It would.  You didn't design the car, you didn't pay for the engineers to design it, you didn't crash test it or give it ratings, you didn't spend money on advertising and production. You stole their designs,  one of the reasons pattent laws are what they are. Litigation from such is very big right now.

     

    We will go back to the stealing part. What am I stealing? Does Ford still have their cars? Does Ford still have the ability to sell their cars? Did I stop the progress of Ford at all by cloning a car? 

     

    You stole a car that you did not pay for.  Thats what you stole.  You took the exact car, which was against the law and against most peoples morals (to create an exact copy of something that you didn't create and not give the creators their credit or compensation).  If you did not have another option to steal it, you would have had to buy it. Case closed.  No "I can borrow it from a friend"  well your friend had to buy it, and its still 1 purchased copy no matter how many times you play it, or if you sell it afterwards.

     

    As another poster said it is not illegal in his country to download pirated games.

    I'd like to know what country that is.  You hear a lot of bullshit on these forums.  "My country doesn't care if you steal software"  Well, in a country like albania or something yeah, I'm sure theres plenty of things that aren't considered illegal having to do with intellectual properties and patents.  Doesn't mean its right morally, or that a company even considers that country a market for the games people are stealing.   

     

     

    None of those things can compare to pirated games and you know it.     ...       You see when you steal any of those other things people actually lose something. When you pirate a game it does not hurt anyone and indeed there are many cases where it has actually helped them.

     

    Actually, all of those things compare.  The company still loses something.  They lose customers.  While everyone wants to pretend "Oh if I pirate the game, I'll just buy it later." What a load of crap and everyone who pirates knows it.  You can try a trial for a game,  not steal the damn thing,  and furthermore if you already have a full working version, you aren't going to buy it.   Where are you statistics?   Everyone says how Pirating games HELPS developers,  but I can't seem to find anything talking about how awesome pirating games happens to be for developers.  In fact,  I see the opposite quite a bit:

    http://www.cracked.com/article_19162_6-hilarious-ways-game-designers-are-screwing-with-pirates.html

    http://www.insidegamingdaily.com/2010/12/29/the-most-pirated-games-of-2010/

    http://www.tuaw.com/2011/07/15/developer-frustrated-over-game-center-use-by-pirates/

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-09-30-how-bad-is-pc-piracy-really-article

    http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/news/2005/12/69785

    http://articles.cnn.com/2009-04-17/entertainment/online.piracy.for.against_1_file-sharing-online-piracy-pirate-bay?_s=PM:SHOWBIZ

     

    And of course I could keep going all day.

     

    Some interesting notes... Dantes inferno was pirated much more than it sold.  Projections stated football manager would have doubled in sales had they not have had to worry about piracy.  In some cases they are saying that piracy rates are up to 90% of the title,  that means overall sales are only 10% of the games overall potential if they didn't have pirates stealing copies to play them.

     

    But you're saying "but they wouldn't have bought them anyways"  yeah,  well take into consideration  over 1 million people stole dantes inferno,  you don't think that if they couldn't steal it that at least 10K of those people wouldn't have just buckled and bought the game within 6 months instead of never buying it?   

     

    Heres a good one from the "proponents" of piracy:

    http://pc.ign.com/articles/118/1184546p1.html

    but if you read closely:

    ""If the game gets pirated heavily, if it's a good game that people really like, they're going to either buy it eventually or they're going to tell other people about it. Either way it's just going to come back to a sale." "  but later ...

    "There's a strange paradox going on here. Because although these guys believe piracy is a good thing, its utility as a marketing tool partly depends on people feeling guilty about the act of stealing. "

     

    And another "piracy may be good" article, lots of caveats and theories,  but nothing in practice:

    http://torrentfreak.com/good-pirates-help-businesses-sell-more-product-080324/

    "Many pirates say that they would never have bought much of the stuff they downloaded or copied. If you fall into this category, you might be a ‘good’ or ‘promotional’ pirate. " But no real information to back it up other than : “Building a theoretical model of `promotional piracy’,” says Croxson, “it is possible to distinguish markets that are best advised to put considerable resource into safeguarding their products from others which may live quite comfortably with a higher incidence of digital piracy.”

     

     

     

    "Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


    image

  • GennerallGennerall LeicesterPosts: 46Member

    http://thepiratebay.org/top/401

     

    almost 18,000 people downloading Bethsedas new release, rage, from one site alone...even if it doesn't cause the game companies to directly bleed profits, I wouldn't quite call piracy B.S

  • GreenHellGreenHell ludlow, MAPosts: 1,322Member Uncommon

    You are wrong.

     Well if Im wrong I guess I am in good company then. History proves me correct your morales wont allow you to see the truth.

    Yes. It would.  You didn't design the car, you didn't pay for the engineers to design it, you didn't crash test it or give it ratings, you didn't spend money on advertising and production. You stole their designs,  one of the reasons pattent laws are what they are. Litigation from such is very big right now.

    and what did I do with their designs? Did I profit from them in anyway..no. If I get the recipe for KFC chicken and make it at home am I going to get sued? Am I a thief? If I feed that chicken to my guests are they theives too? How about all of the websites that tell you how to make it they must be wrong as well.  I didn't do any testing on the chicken, or marketing. According to you I stole their recipes. Lets be honest here you used cars to try and use value as a weapon. A car is worth a lot more than a game or a chicken. When we bring it down to fast food it just doesn't seem like such a big deal. Hell you should have used space shuttles as an example instead.

    You stole a car that you did not pay for.  Thats what you stole.  You took the exact car, which was against the law and against most peoples morals (to create an exact copy of something that you didn't create and not give the creators their credit or compensation).  If you did not have another option to steal it, you would have had to buy it. Case closed.  No "I can borrow it from a friend"  well your friend had to buy it, and its still 1 purchased copy no matter how many times you play it, or if you sell it afterwards.

    No I did not steal anything. How many times do we have to go through this? In order for it to be considered theft someone has to actually lose something. What do they lose?

     I'd like to know what country that is.  You hear a lot of bullshit on these forums.  "My country doesn't care if you steal software"  Well, in a country like albania or something yeah, I'm sure theres plenty of things that aren't considered illegal having to do with intellectual properties and patents.  Doesn't mean its right morally, or that a company even considers that country a market for the games people are stealing.   

     I'm sure he is wrong because his one point that I bring up doesn't agree with your sense of morales. Even though when you find his post I believe he is actually anti-pirating. Imagine an anti-pirate person coming from some 3rd world country that is so morally inferior to yours. Gasp!

    Actually, all of those things compare.  The company still loses something.  They lose customers.  While everyone wants to pretend "Oh if I pirate the game, I'll just buy it later." What a load of crap and everyone who pirates knows it.  

    You lose credibility here. Since you are morally superior to anyone who pirates you must also be able to read minds and see in to the lives of everyone who pirates. Want me to tell you whats crap? The soapbox you stand on with your book of morales in one hand and your scepter of ignorance in the other.

    You can try a trial for a game,  not steal the damn thing,  and furthermore if you already have a full working version, you aren't going to buy it.   Where are you statistics?   Everyone says how Pirating games HELPS developers,  but I can't seem to find anything talking about how awesome pirating games happens to be for developers.  In fact,  I see the opposite quite a bit:

    you obviously did not read the quotes I left in another post from people at microsoft. People who are against pirating. Thats ok though. It doesn't matter that with out pirating Microsoft really didn't have a chance in hell of getting windows established in china. Bah they are a small country anyways. Ok Im sure thats only one example and there are no other examples to ever be found. Maybe no examples that companies would actually want known anyways.

    And of course I could keep going all day.

    Im sure you could. I could also find stories about aliens abducting ugly southern woman until the end of time. Does it make it more factual or are you reading what the industry as a whole wants you to believe? You have been told its wrong and its hurting developers. Little developer babies are dieing from starvation. Will you believe whatever the major media throws at you with out ever questioning it.

    Some interesting notes... Dantes inferno was pirated much more than it sold.  Projections stated football manager would have doubled in sales had they not have had to worry about piracy.  In some cases they are saying that piracy rates are up to 90% of the title,  that means overall sales are only 10% of the games overall potential if they didn't have pirates stealing copies to play them.

    Where do they get all of these glorious numbers from? How do they know? They really can't. I guess the Dantes Inferno Big Brother is always watching"  Projections stated" yes and projections have NEVER been wrong..blame the pirates. it has to be there fault. Your numbers have no way of being accurate.

    But you're saying "but they wouldn't have bought them anyways"  yeah,  well take into consideration  over 1 million people stole dantes inferno,  you don't think that if they couldn't steal it that at least 10K of those people wouldn't have just buckled and bought the game within 6 months instead of never buying it?   

    I still challenge the validity of the numbers.

     "This may be due to the fact that in order to pirate 360 games, you have to mod your system which cuts it off from Xbox Live. That’s the only explanation I can come up with as to why Dante’s Inferno and Alan Wake top the 360 list."

    This is how you determine a game is pirated? You just go "hey that 360 isn't online they must be pirates and of course they are playing Dantes Inferno" This does not seem like an accurate system to me. I own a 360 and have never pirated a game for it. I only connect my 360 to the internet for updates. Yes I must be playing Dantes. The evidence can not be argued!

     I challenge every number you post. You tell me how they prove it. You tell me how you prove that every leacher on pirate bay would buy the game..better yet prove to me that they wont after playing it.

     

     

     

     

     

  • MundusMundus BerlinPosts: 237Member

    Originally posted by Gennerall

    http://thepiratebay.org/top/401

     

    almost 18,000 people downloading Bethsedas new release, rage, from one site alone...even if it doesn't cause the game companies to directly bleed profits, I wouldn't quite call piracy B.S


     

    I wish I had downloaded it. Unfortunately I bought it and I regret it. Weak gameplay. Non-existing story. Graphics problems on PC and PS3 at least. Not worth my money.S

    So yes, in this case me pirating the game would've actually 'hurt' ZeniMax. Though they'd deserve it for this game.

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel houston, TXPosts: 7,273Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by GreenHell

    You are wrong.

     Well if Im wrong I guess I am in good company then. History proves me correct your morales wont allow you to see the truth.

    Yes. It would.  You didn't design the car, you didn't pay for the engineers to design it, you didn't crash test it or give it ratings, you didn't spend money on advertising and production. You stole their designs,  one of the reasons pattent laws are what they are. Litigation from such is very big right now.

    and what did I do with their designs? Did I profit from them in anyway..no. If I get the recipe for KFC chicken and make it at home am I going to get sued? Am I a thief? If I feed that chicken to my guests are they theives too? How about all of the websites that tell you how to make it they must be wrong as well.  I didn't do any testing on the chicken, or marketing. According to you I stole their recipes. Lets be honest here you used cars to try and use value as a weapon. A car is worth a lot more than a game or a chicken. When we bring it down to fast food it just doesn't seem like such a big deal. Hell you should have used space shuttles as an example instead.

    You stole a car that you did not pay for.  Thats what you stole.  You took the exact car, which was against the law and against most peoples morals (to create an exact copy of something that you didn't create and not give the creators their credit or compensation).  If you did not have another option to steal it, you would have had to buy it. Case closed.  No "I can borrow it from a friend"  well your friend had to buy it, and its still 1 purchased copy no matter how many times you play it, or if you sell it afterwards.

    No I did not steal anything. How many times do we have to go through this? In order for it to be considered theft someone has to actually lose something. What do they lose?

     I'd like to know what country that is.  You hear a lot of bullshit on these forums.  "My country doesn't care if you steal software"  Well, in a country like albania or something yeah, I'm sure theres plenty of things that aren't considered illegal having to do with intellectual properties and patents.  Doesn't mean its right morally, or that a company even considers that country a market for the games people are stealing.   

     I'm sure he is wrong because his one point that I bring up doesn't agree with your sense of morales. Even though when you find his post I believe he is actually anti-pirating. Imagine an anti-pirate person coming from some 3rd world country that is so morally inferior to yours. Gasp!

    Actually, all of those things compare.  The company still loses something.  They lose customers.  While everyone wants to pretend "Oh if I pirate the game, I'll just buy it later." What a load of crap and everyone who pirates knows it.  

    You lose credibility here. Since you are morally superior to anyone who pirates you must also be able to read minds and see in to the lives of everyone who pirates. Want me to tell you whats crap? The soapbox you stand on with your book of morales in one hand and your scepter of ignorance in the other.

    You can try a trial for a game,  not steal the damn thing,  and furthermore if you already have a full working version, you aren't going to buy it.   Where are you statistics?   Everyone says how Pirating games HELPS developers,  but I can't seem to find anything talking about how awesome pirating games happens to be for developers.  In fact,  I see the opposite quite a bit:

    you obviously did not read the quotes I left in another post from people at microsoft. People who are against pirating. Thats ok though. It doesn't matter that with out pirating Microsoft really didn't have a chance in hell of getting windows established in china. Bah they are a small country anyways. Ok Im sure thats only one example and there are no other examples to ever be found. Maybe no examples that companies would actually want known anyways.

    And of course I could keep going all day.

    Im sure you could. I could also find stories about aliens abducting ugly southern woman until the end of time. Does it make it more factual or are you reading what the industry as a whole wants you to believe? You have been told its wrong and its hurting developers. Little developer babies are dieing from starvation. Will you believe whatever the major media throws at you with out ever questioning it.

    Some interesting notes... Dantes inferno was pirated much more than it sold.  Projections stated football manager would have doubled in sales had they not have had to worry about piracy.  In some cases they are saying that piracy rates are up to 90% of the title,  that means overall sales are only 10% of the games overall potential if they didn't have pirates stealing copies to play them.

    Where do they get all of these glorious numbers from? How do they know? They really can't. I guess the Dantes Inferno Big Brother is always watching"  Projections stated" yes and projections have NEVER been wrong..blame the pirates. it has to be there fault. Your numbers have no way of being accurate.

    But you're saying "but they wouldn't have bought them anyways"  yeah,  well take into consideration  over 1 million people stole dantes inferno,  you don't think that if they couldn't steal it that at least 10K of those people wouldn't have just buckled and bought the game within 6 months instead of never buying it?   

    I still challenge the validity of the numbers.

     "This may be due to the fact that in order to pirate 360 games, you have to mod your system which cuts it off from Xbox Live. That’s the only explanation I can come up with as to why Dante’s Inferno and Alan Wake top the 360 list."

    This is how you determine a game is pirated? You just go "hey that 360 isn't online they must be pirates and of course they are playing Dantes Inferno" This does not seem like an accurate system to me. I own a 360 and have never pirated a game for it. I only connect my 360 to the internet for updates. Yes I must be playing Dantes. The evidence can not be argued!

     I challenge every number you post. You tell me how they prove it. You tell me how you prove that every leacher on pirate bay would buy the game..better yet prove to me that they wont after playing it.

     

     

     

     

     

     Well if Im wrong I guess I am in good company then. History proves me correct your morales wont allow you to see the truth.

    I might be more apt to agree with at least your instances of such if you actually... y'know.. posted some examples. But as you have provided none and made nothing but a blanket statement. You are wrong.

     

    and what did I do with their designs? Did I profit from them in anyway..no. If I get the recipe for KFC chicken and make it at home am I going to get sued? Am I a thief?

    If the recipe is a copyright, or you say "This is KFCs chicken recipe" when you serve it which is a trademark, yeah you could get sued.   The original recipe is a secret of sorts for the company,  you can guess at it with the amounts, etc,  but if you take that particular recipe, label it as KFC chicken (or even another type)  its likely you'll have a lawsuit on your hands.  It wouldn't be the first time for KFC to do that over their chicken recipe.

     

     It doesn't matter that with out pirating Microsoft really didn't have a chance in hell of getting windows established in china. Bah they are a small country anyways. Ok Im sure thats only one example and there are no other examples to ever be found. Maybe no examples that companies would actually want known anyways.

     

    What doesn't matter is that, just because something is popular in a country that pirates,  doesn't mean it will be equally beneficial for the company in the long run.  As stated in the articles I provided,  more than 85% of software appears to be pirated in China and Russia.  Numbers are increasing across the board in pirating while you aren't seeing an overall increase in the purchase of software,  in fact,  sales have been dropping in game sales for a number of years,  eventhough this is in flux,  they fell quite a bit in 2010, and we've had some bad bouts here too,  yet piracy is growing at a steady rate.

     

    Does it make it more factual or are you reading what the industry as a whole wants you to believe?

     

    LOL oh man,  after this, I'm just going to stop arguing after this post.  You've lost every ounce of credibility that I saw in you, and the only reason I kept debating.  Because honestly, you provided absolutely no data.. I even posted articles from PROPONENTS  that STILL had caveats.   If anything you could have posted actual data to back up your statements or show the opposite,  or just noted that those may be good points for developer X but (and rattled off some more nonsense)  but instead you went the conspiracy theory route.

     

     Even companies who offer no DRM and don't even try to combat piracy, don't do it because they think piracy is a good idea,  they do it because paying consumers don't want DRM.   You've posted no statements to combat what I've stated or the numerous links with data that at least backs up my point,  and I could literally find hundreds more if I wanted,  and out of all of those articles,  its just "what the industry as a whole wants me to believe"?    This is the kind of rationality I'd expect from people who steal games.

     

     You just go "hey that 360 isn't online they must be pirates and of course they are playing Dantes Inferno" 

     

    They could be basing it off of a lot of different data, not just who isn't online lol.  It could be the amount of downloads of the game from different IPs tracked from torrent sites,  it could be a series of users that tried to get online with a modded Xbox while in game.  Just stating that someone isn't on Xbox live is unlikely the way they are getting these numbers, especially since, all the numbers for xbox 360 would be the same across all titles if the data was collected at the same time.. using your method... which they are likely not using.

     

     I challenge every number you post. You tell me how they prove it. You tell me how you prove that every leacher on pirate bay would buy the game..better yet prove to me that they wont after playing it.

     

    How about you prove to me that it increases sales first,  challenge every number I post if you want,  but its all in the links I've posted,  you want to challenge those numbers,  go talk to the people doing the research.  Long story short, piracy hurts companies more than it helps them. FACT.   If piracy was so great and everyone did it, game companies would lose revenue much more than they already do.

     

    Its all because of entitlist, idiotic people who think that piracy is an easy going victimless (non)crime.   If you ask enough people in the industry, they'll be able to spell it out very simply what the increasing numbers of pirated copies of their works will do in the long run to their games.   In the future, it won't matter,  and thats why games are looking to different kinds of architectures,  such as consoles revolving around systems like onlive,  or requiring users to stay connected to the internet at all time as content is housed there, not to different from MMOs currently.

     

    Soon, what used to be just a regular game you could play offline, will require online connections or other types of security that may seem cumbersome, but when companies see more profit from less people stealing their shit, it will become the norm.   

     

    And as I stated, that will be my last post in regards to you specifically.  You've given no data, you go deaf and you blind yourself when any point is provided with statements from people in the industry,  and choose to believe conspiracies people tell you.... but in truth,  its only a matter of time before they finally snuff out PC piracy,  either through making torrents tougher to find, severe litigation against those who do it,  through combatting and blocking through coordination with ISPs,  through developers making content more secure, or housing in over the net...    and when it happens and we all suffer,  I guess we'll have pirates to thank for that.

    "Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


    image

  • GreenHellGreenHell ludlow, MAPosts: 1,322Member Uncommon

    I might be more apt to agree with at least your instances of such if you actually... y'know.. posted some examples. But as you have provided none and made nothing but a blanket statement. You are wrong.

    The colonization of the Americas is a perfect example of stealing and at the time the populace did not seem to think it was wrong. They lied to, cheated, stole, and killed the Native Americans to get this land. It was ok then.

     If the recipe is a copyright, or you say "This is KFCs chicken recipe" when you serve it which is a trademark, yeah you could get sued.   The original recipe is a secret of sorts for the company,  you can guess at it with the amounts, etc,  but if you take that particular recipe, label it as KFC chicken (or even another type)  its likely you'll have a lawsuit on your hands.  It wouldn't be the first time for KFC to do that over their chicken recipe.

    Well then it is time for you to get out there and enlighten all of the chicken pirates with your superior morals. A quick google search on "how to make KFC chicken" came back with 998,000 results. Good luck with that. Did this secret recipe leak destroy KFC.. hardly. Any financial problems they have had nothing to do with the dreaded KFC secret recipe stealing thieves.

    What doesn't matter is that, just because something is popular in a country that pirates,  doesn't mean it will be equally beneficial for the company in the long run.  As stated in the articles I provided,  more than 85% of software appears to be pirated in China and Russia.  Numbers are increasing across the board in pirating while you aren't seeing an overall increase in the purchase of software,  in fact,  sales have been dropping in game sales for a number of years,  eventhough this is in flux,  they fell quite a bit in 2010, and we've had some bad bouts here too,  yet piracy is growing at a steady rate.

    You did not read the quotes I left. Thats ok though. It was all about profit in the long run. Ehh..what does Microsoft know? I'm sure you have a far superior intellect.

     LOL oh man,  after this, I'm just going to stop arguing after this post.  You've lost every ounce of credibility that I saw in you, and the only reason I kept debating.  Because honestly, you provided absolutely no data.. I even posted articles from PROPONENTS  that STILL had caveats.   If anything you could have posted actual data to back up your statements or show the opposite,  or just noted that those may be good points for developer X but (and rattled off some more nonsense)  but instead you went the conspiracy theory route.

    Conspiracy theory are you kidding me ..seriously? If every game/software developer came out and said that piracy was not a problem and it was barely effecting them what would happen? It would become a much larger problem than what they may have. You dont believe they exaggerate numbers? Are you that blind? That much of a sheep? It is not a conspiracy it is common sense. You make something look much worse than it is so it does not become much worse than it is. You are painful. As far as credibility goes you lost all of that on the last post where you preaching on your soapbox about how everyone who pirates never buys the game...and I told you that.

     Even companies who offer no DRM and don't even try to combat piracy, don't do it because they think piracy is a good idea,  they do it because paying consumers don't want DRM.   You've posted no statements to combat what I've stated or the numerous links with data that at least backs up my point,  and I could literally find hundreds more if I wanted,  and out of all of those articles,  its just "what the industry as a whole wants me to believe"?    This is the kind of rationality I'd expect from people who steal games.

    Did I ever say I stole games? Ahh we are in your black and white world so I must..thats right. Is it so impossible to you that the information you get may be skewed to get the results they are looking for? People like you are the reason this country is in the state it is in. Another sheep following the herd believeing whatever is told to them even if common sense could point in another direction. 

    They could be basing it off of a lot of different data, not just who isn't online lol.  It could be the amount of downloads of the game from different IPs tracked from torrent sites,  it could be a series of users that tried to get online with a modded Xbox while in game.  Just stating that someone isn't on Xbox live is unlikely the way they are getting these numbers, especially since, all the numbers for xbox 360 would be the same across all titles if the data was collected at the same time.. using your method... which they are likely not using.

    YOU are the one who so proudly posted all of those links and you do not know how they get their information? Yet you are 100% sure it is accurate. Wow. As far as the "using your method" comment goes it wasn't my method it was on one of your links that you posted but did not bother to read past the title. Way to go champ. 

    How about you prove to me that it increases sales first,  challenge every number I post if you want,  but its all in the links I've posted,  you want to challenge those numbers,  go talk to the people doing the research.  Long story short, piracy hurts companies more than it helps them. FACT.   If piracy was so great and everyone did it, game companies would lose revenue much more than they already do.

    Long story short you really have no idea if it hurts companies. You have no idea where they get their numbers, who gets these numbers, or any other fact besides they are on the internet to prove you are right. We all now everything on the internet is correct. Can I prove that piracy increases sales? Nope. No more than you can prove it hurts them.  I can tell you from experiences that I have witnessed and only from those experiences that it did cause the games to be bought on many, many occasions. Maybe everything I see is the exception to the rules and everything that you dont actually see but just read about has to be the norm. The internet does not lie.

    Its all because of entitlist, idiotic people who think that piracy is an easy going victimless (non)crime.   If you ask enough people in the industry, they'll be able to spell it out very simply what the increasing numbers of pirated copies of their works will do in the long run to their games.   In the future, it won't matter,  and thats why games are looking to different kinds of architectures,  such as consoles revolving around systems like onlive,  or requiring users to stay connected to the internet at all time as content is housed there, not to different from MMOs currently.

     Well at least your morals do not stop you from insulting random people that you don't know. Way to go wrapping up everyone who disagrees with you in a tidy little box. So who are these people in the industry that you know? You have obviously asked enough people in the industry to get these "facts". There was a guy on here who said he was a published dev and he had no problem with piracy. Oh but thats right he is a liar because he posts on these forums. Only the media that you link but dont read can be right.

    If piracy was such a big deal they could have used MMO architecures years ago. The technology has been around for awhile. I wonder why they havent. If they were losing so much money you would think that changing to an MMO type of system should be the norm by now. Yes it might piss of a few people and they wont buy it but surely the money gained from not having your game pirated would more than make up for it. Blizzard doesn't seem worried about losing sales. Why is everyone else? Could it be that Blizzard is doing it for more reasons than just piracy? No it cant be..just pirates.

    And as I stated, that will be my last post in regards to you specifically.  You've given no data, you go deaf and you blind yourself when any point is provided with statements from people in the industry,  and choose to believe conspiracies people tell you.... but in truth,  its only a matter of time before they finally snuff out PC piracy,  either through making torrents tougher to find, severe litigation against those who do it,  through combatting and blocking through coordination with ISPs,  through developers making content more secure, or housing in over the net...    and when it happens and we all suffer,  I guess we'll have pirates to thank for that.

    I am heart broken that we will not have a chance to discuss this again. I was so looking forward to more links that you post but dont fully read and more of your blind moral superiority. I dont believe in conspiracies. I do believe in common sense not blind faith. I do believe that people will believe anything they read on the internet when it justifies them but will tell you that you cant believe anything you read on the internet. I also believe you should watch more History channel and I believe when the police come to my house to watch me make chicken to ensure that it is not the KFC secret recipe that i will totally agree with you that piracy has ruined everything. Piracy has been around long before the internet and will contine to florish well in to the future. Your way of thinking is so black and white (not to mention hypocritical) that happily it will not last as long.

     

  • RequiamerRequiamer ???Posts: 2,034Member



    Originally posted by Sovrath


    Originally posted by Requiamer


    Originally posted by Scot


    Any thread about piracy brings out the idiots who think there is no such thing as ownership etc. Go and see what the real world is like, get a job and a life; don’t just rely on what you heard in Sociology 101 and can find on the internet.

     

     

    Ownership is a concept thus cannot be found "in real life" as you seam to pretend, its not an apple or anything physical. As any concept it is subject to history of mankind, and history isn't writen in your job, or life, it is written in the knowledge of people as any other concept.
    This naturally if you don't consider yourself as getting your knowledge directly from God in your real life, naturally

    Of course it's a concept. It differs from cultures to cultures and from time period to time period.
    Luckily we know where we are and what time period we are in.
    For instance, if I take your car or occupy your house or use your pants you might say "I don't want you to do those things, you are not entitled to it.
    Unless you live in a culture and country that is somewhat sequestered away or adheres to some sort of community idea of ownership or that idea that land can't be owned it would be safe to say that when someone uses the word ownership we all know what they mean and practice it in some way in our own lives.
    Or do you just go into a store and take a few tV's and then start telling the manager about ownership as a concept.
    They like that you know.

    I'm sorry you just cannot caricature that concept that easily, it just doesn't work in practice.
    I mean you can do just that if you want, that's what most people do anyway, but you might be confronted with serious disillusion if you think that way.


    Ownership is not only what you decide it should be, 'im sorry, you need the consent of others too. Your ownership will be respected if that consensus is kept. If at anytime this consensus if broken you might loose what 'you' as a persona think is your in the favor of other people thinking it is not. And not only you need others to invalidate this, but others will also define what you can do or not do with or inside your possession.

    Look at all the ways you might loose "your" house in matter of second because other people decide to stop this consensus. War, government needed your house for a military base, company finding a resource and getting support to kick you out, you wife divorcing...


    There is a very strong notion of respect in what make yours or not. If other don't respect that for any reason, it might not be as much "yours" as you might think. But naturally you can keep leaving in your bubble all you want and ignore all this, i'm not the one who will fall if it explode, i hope for you it won't ever really, good luck with that. But you should keep somewhere behind you head that's its not as simple as that. I don't think courts and laws would have been so big in our societies if it was that simple.

  • CorehavenCorehaven Colorado Springs, COPosts: 1,538Member

    Personally I figure companies arent loosing nearly as much money as they seem to think they are due to piracy.   If suddenly a guy who loves to pirate stuff find out he cant pirate that particular game?  Well by golly he's going to go out and BUY IT! 

     

    Bull.  He will not.  He'll just pirate something else.  So how exactly did they loose money?  My point is people who pirate do that.  They're not in the habit of buying games, so they probably wouldnt no matter what.  So no money lost.  Might have been different if they're shop lifting a physical item, but pirates are just taking digital files which can be copied and replicated into infinity.  My point is, they wouldnt have bought it anyways.  So there's really no difference. 

     

    As far as people cheating while playing with other people?  Now thats just plain scummy.   Ive used cheats before but not often.  In single player games.  Id never dream of doing it while playing with others.  I appreciate a level playing field.  Cheating in an online game would take just as much fun from me as it would for everyone else.  Its like the saying goes, "Cheaters never win."  And they really dont.  Because they were never playing the game properly in the first place.  Cant win if you arent even really playing the game as intended.  At best you just get the illusion of winning. 

  • CeridithCeridith Toronto, ONPosts: 2,980Member

    Originally posted by Gennerall

    http://thepiratebay.org/top/401

     

    almost 18,000 people downloading Bethsedas new release, rage, from one site alone...even if it doesn't cause the game companies to directly bleed profits, I wouldn't quite call piracy B.S

    The only thing digging into id's profit on this game, is the fact that they completely botched the release by shipping it in a terribly buggy and poorly running state. Not only that, but the game is $60 for what is ten hours of bland and linear gameplay in a glorified tech demo for id's new console game engine.

    The fact that the game is being pirated as much as it is (which isn't even that much), is because people aren't going to pay $60 for a game worth less than $20.

    Most people who pirate either refuse to pay the price regardless if piracy is an option, or don't even have the money to but the game in the first place. But if a game is good and reasonably priced for what it is, then it will still sell well. But most developers would rather just blame poor sales on the piracy boogey monster rather than admit that their product is just terrible and not worth the $50-60 they want for it.

  • bepolitebepolite istanbulPosts: 53Member

    Originally posted by Ceridith

    Originally posted by Gennerall

    http://thepiratebay.org/top/401

     

    almost 18,000 people downloading Bethsedas new release, rage, from one site alone...even if it doesn't cause the game companies to directly bleed profits, I wouldn't quite call piracy B.S

    Most people who pirate either refuse to pay the price regardless if piracy is an option, or don't even have the money to but the game in the first place. But if a game is good and reasonably priced for what it is, then it will still sell well. But most developers would rather just blame poor sales on the piracy boogey monster rather than admit that their product is just terrible and not worth the $50-60 they want for it.

    exactly if a game delivers  entertainment , word gets around  and ppl will buy it . When i get mixed reviews i admit i get the pirate version to see what s the game is like . If i got entertained id buy it anyway, no matter what ....like i did with TES series , DragonageO, Witcher Series and many more. If Developers keep on  throwing games on the market with less than mediocore content and substance , bullshitting its costumers ,all i can say they had it coming.

  • jamigrejamigre New York, NYPosts: 283Member
    Wow. Apparently someone's just like dem idiots.

    Ever heard of a certain bay where the pirates be romin? Or perchance a skidrow? Cause all you really need to do its pleasantly mod a .dll or find one modded and you're pirated ware is brand spanking' new.

    In fact I would say that a lot of ppl who pirate software buy it if it's worth the $, and ESP. So games. In a lot of ways pirating is try before you buy.

    -------
    Check out http://partyupgamer.com - and meet people you actually want to play with.
    -------

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,751Member Uncommon

    Requiamer, when you can handle another persons idea’s without doing a ‘he is nuts smilie’ and imply that I think I am getting my opinions from god, we can talk further. That’s it for now as god is phoning me to catch up. :-)

  • onlinenow25onlinenow25 San Diego, CAPosts: 275Member

    The best part about anti-piracy stuff is that a lot of the pirates actaully crack things for fun.

     

    So all the money that companies are wasting on copy protection, and anti-pirating is only giving people free entertainment, the exact opposite of what they want.

  • 1333333713333337 Gettysburg, PAPosts: 23Member

    Let me turn the tables as it were. I would say that some pirates would have to buy the game so they could then start to figure out how to pirate it. So they are paying for at least one copy. Of some games that is. Still I dont think its right to be a pirate. xD

    But pirates arent killing off the in-game population by using mods, or exploiting.

  • kingotnwkingotnw Minneapolis, MNPosts: 103Member

    ANYONE on here defending piracy is an idiot. Case closed. I don't care if you would have bought the game or not. It is a product that you are stealing. I don't care if the product is not available to you. There are numerous reasons  for that including distribution issues that will never get solved if everyone simply steals the products. People can try to sound as noble as they want, but the fact is they are trying to justify their own theivery. Go into a Wal-Mart (or wherever) and try walking out with a video game without paying for it an d see what happens to you.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,451Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Requiamer

     




    I'm sorry you just cannot caricature that concept that easily, it just doesn't work in practice.

    I mean you can do just that if you want, that's what most people do anyway, but you might be confronted with serious disillusion if you think that way.



    Ownership is not only what you decide it should be, 'im sorry, you need the consent of others too. Your ownership will be respected if that consensus is kept. If at anytime this consensus if broken you might loose what 'you' as a persona think is your in the favor of other people thinking it is not. And not only you need others to invalidate this, but others will also define what you can do or not do with or inside your possession.

    Look at all the ways you might loose "your" house in matter of second because other people decide to stop this consensus. War, government needed your house for a military base, company finding a resource and getting support to kick you out, you wife divorcing...



    There is a very strong notion of respect in what make yours or not. If other don't respect that for any reason, it might not be as much "yours" as you might think. But naturally you can keep leaving in your bubble all you want and ignore all this, i'm not the one who will fall if it explode, i hope for you it won't ever really, good luck with that. But you should keep somewhere behind you head that's its not as simple as that. I don't think courts and laws would have been so big in our societies if it was that simple.

    I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying. But simply put, at this moment in time, most of us live in a world that acknowledges copyright laws, terms of use, etc.

    So until one's government and system of laws gets tossed out then I get to keep my house if a stranger decides take it.

    If our police system is still in check then they'll toss them out.

    this isn't hard to understand.

    If our world goes the way of "mad max' then sure, we can start talking about might makes right and whatever one can fight for one can keep, but we aren't here yet. At least in the places we live.

    I'm telling you right now, I take your car I don't get to keep your car with the blessing of the state.

     

  • RequiamerRequiamer ???Posts: 2,034Member



    Originally posted by Sovrath

    I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying. But simply put, at this moment in time, most of us live in a world that acknowledges copyright laws, terms of use, etc.
    So until one's government and system of laws gets tossed out then I get to keep my house if a stranger decides take it.
    If our police system is still in check then they'll toss them out.
    this isn't hard to understand.
    If our world goes the way of "mad max' then sure, we can start talking about might makes right and whatever one can fight for one can keep, but we aren't here yet. At least in the places we live.
    I'm telling you right now, I take your car I don't get to keep your car with the blessing of the state.
     



    Hey i fully understand what you are saying. But the thing is the thread isn't about my car or your house, sure laws about ownership of those are very clear, straightforward, and respected in most countries around the world.

    But here we are talking about gaming, SOE mess with George Hotz and hacker movement that followed, gold farmer and botters, and Diablo 3 that legalize RMT in the gaming world. Pretty much all of those things have no laws, or are in greys areas even in the US, and even if they exist would probably not be respected (i don't think china will put gold farmer anytime soon in jail) in most countries. And RMT is a fucking mess, pushing gaming into the addictive and hacking corner of gaming, and this probably will stay like this for few years. Because you know games aren't really something of interest for courts, they have more serious work, if you know what i mean.

    So all in all, if what you are saying is true, its still a bit "twisted" or at least too schematic for the OP post. Because it is clear that in mmo ownership is a pretty funny concept to say the least, you "own" a virtual toon, into a game world that you don't own, and so on and so on. I really wish ownership was that simple in mmo and had a clean relationship with virtuality, but it doesn't.

  • XaeroDegreazXaeroDegreaz MasanPosts: 13Member

    Eat a full testicle.

  • GreenHellGreenHell ludlow, MAPosts: 1,322Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by kingotnw

    Go into a Wal-Mart (or wherever) and try walking out with a video game without paying for it an d see what happens to you.

    What if I go in to a Walmart (or whatever) and take a picture of a picture that they are selling? I then go home, print it out and hang it on my wall. What happens to me then?

  • UccisoreUccisore Presque Isle, MEPosts: 95Member

         An argument that something isn't a problem because not enough people can figure out how to do it is just...mind bogglingly horrible.  First of all, you're comparing two completely different population bases.  While yes, it's true that the 'average' consumer isn't tech savvy enough to do much of anything, major titles in gaming aren't being SOLD to the average consumer, they're being sold to gamers, and yes, the typical gamers knows how to torrent something. 

            Secondly, pirating only is as 'complicated' as it is because it's still semi-illegitmate.  You have to go to smaller websites that aren't making a profit and aren't interested in being the most user-friendly places on earth.  The more legitimized something on the intnernet becomes, the more likely a simple-effective service to deliver it becomes. 

         Thirdly, some people are saying "People who steal games are those who don't believe in paying that much for a game in the first place, and therefore it's not hurting sales" are missing the fact that the "willing to pay" and "not willing to pay" groups aren't static- they are subject to change.   And one of the BIG things that would make the 'not willing to pay' group larger is how easy it becomes to get something without paying!  Once I find a free pirate server for an MMO I like, and realize how easy it is to get into these things, who's to say I don't become one of those people that 'doesn't believe in' paying subscription fees?  While I agree it's a mistake to assume that every pirated game is a lost sale, it's equally a mistake to assume that there aren't people pirating that would have made a purchase if it wasn't so easy to steal instead. 

     

    Last but not least, I think it's shameful that a staff person on this website would practically endorse taking money ouf of the hands of the industry that keeps him in his job. 

  • GruntyGrunty Fort Worth, TXPosts: 7,029Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by GreenHell

    Originally posted by kingotnw

    Go into a Wal-Mart (or wherever) and try walking out with a video game without paying for it an d see what happens to you.

    What if I go in to a Walmart (or whatever) and take a picture of a picture that they are selling? I then go home, print it out and hang it on my wall. What happens to me then?

    You'll be laughed at by your friends for being so cheap as to not even buy a picture at Walmart prices.They will then post a picture of you at walmart-people.com

  • DubhlaithDubhlaith EnnisPosts: 1,012Member


    Originally posted by GreenHell

    Originally posted by kingotnw
    Go into a Wal-Mart (or wherever) and try walking out with a video game without paying for it an d see what happens to you.
    What if I go in to a Walmart (or whatever) and take a picture of a picture that they are selling? I then go home, print it out and hang it on my wall. What happens to me then?


    This is actually a nearly perfect analogy.

    "Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true — you know it, and they know it." —Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007

    WTF? No subscription fee?

  • UccisoreUccisore Presque Isle, MEPosts: 95Member

    Originally posted by GreenHell

    Originally posted by kingotnw

    Go into a Wal-Mart (or wherever) and try walking out with a video game without paying for it an d see what happens to you.

    What if I go in to a Walmart (or whatever) and take a picture of a picture that they are selling? I then go home, print it out and hang it on my wall. What happens to me then?


     

     

  • UccisoreUccisore Presque Isle, MEPosts: 95Member

    Originally posted by GreenHell

    Originally posted by kingotnw

    Go into a Wal-Mart (or wherever) and try walking out with a video game without paying for it an d see what happens to you.

    What if I go in to a Walmart (or whatever) and take a picture of a picture that they are selling? I then go home, print it out and hang it on my wall. What happens to me then?


     

     

         Then you're stuck with a low-res, grainy, crappy image of an image that would look retarded on your wall.

          if the technology to do this became common and cheap enough (compared to the price of just buying a poster) that everybody was doing this, you can bet your ass Wal-Mart would find away to package the picture to prevent it, as would be their right.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,451Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Requiamer

     






    Originally posted by Sovrath



    I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying. But simply put, at this moment in time, most of us live in a world that acknowledges copyright laws, terms of use, etc.

    So until one's government and system of laws gets tossed out then I get to keep my house if a stranger decides take it.

    If our police system is still in check then they'll toss them out.

    this isn't hard to understand.

    If our world goes the way of "mad max' then sure, we can start talking about might makes right and whatever one can fight for one can keep, but we aren't here yet. At least in the places we live.

    I'm telling you right now, I take your car I don't get to keep your car with the blessing of the state.

     

     

     



     



    Hey i fully understand what you are saying. But the thing is the thread isn't about my car or your house, sure laws about ownership of those are very clear, straightforward, and respected in most countries around the world.

    But here we are talking about gaming, SOE mess with George Hotz and hacker movement that followed, gold farmer and botters, and Diablo 3 that legalize RMT in the gaming world. Pretty much all of those things have no laws, or are in greys areas even in the US, and even if they exist would probably not be respected (i don't think china will put gold farmer anytime soon in jail) in most countries. And RMT is a fucking mess, pushing gaming into the addictive and hacking corner of gaming, and this probably will stay like this for few years. Because you know games aren't really something of interest for courts, they have more serious work, if you know what i mean.

    So all in all, if what you are saying is true, its still a bit "twisted" or at least too schematic for the OP post. Because it is clear that in mmo ownership is a pretty funny concept to say the least, you "own" a virtual toon, into a game world that you don't own, and so on and so on. I really wish ownership was that simple in mmo and had a clean relationship with virtuality, but it doesn't.

    It's perfectly in line with the original post.

    Your idea of owning a virtual item being ridiculous doesn't hold up because you dont' "own that virtual item.

    You are granted access to those virtual items. Of course if you want to talk about virtual items not really existing well "they do".

    Just like our paper money is a representation of buying power the items, characters and world of a virtual game is representative of "something".

    If people are paying money to access video games (that "something")  then those things have value. The game companies have put time, money and effort into creating those things. They aren't figments of our imagination.

    And just as I said earlier, acquiring a video game is not stealing but it is acquiring access to something that a person has no right  to access without his/her paying what the game companies have asked.

    What is essentially happening here is that some players feel they are entitled to access these things just because they can.

    They make the argument that because it's out there and isn't somethign you can hold in their hand then it's their right to do so.

    I do believe the laws say otherwise. The game companies are certainly selling you access to these things and stipulate how you can access them and use them.

     

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