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I think that the modern WoW player is looking for fast food raiding and Blizzard are serving that for them with a Raid Finder. The reality with WoW is that even the hardcore know that the suits who run Blizzard always nerf the content till the point where anyone can do it. All raid Finder does is allow for the fast food culture of raiding where a guild is not required. Is that a good thing, quite possibly as it allows as many players as possible to get into the raid system. Since WoW is now mainly a gear treadmill that will keep its players happy. Measures like this won't stop the decline of WOW, but it will allow for hardcore players to just go casual and go through the raid content while perhaps playing another game. Remember folks Blizzard charge its players a sub so they try to hook them for as long as possible.
Originally posted by Torgrim Originally posted by precious328
Casuals can still enjoy a semi-hardcore MMO. Dumbing a game down to "casual" does nothing but hurt the game.
Well sead this sums everything up..../thread
How does it hurt WoW? There is still an option for hardmodes. The game is still alive and thriving.
Your article asserts that the new WoW player never really had the chance to be anything but casual due to the game's curent design.
No arguing that statement...
The real issue in play here is moreso one of balance of intent and not the intent itself. Blizzard changed the difficulty and requirments of its' raids to include a broader spectrum of the audience. This allowed raid level dungeons to become more accessable to the casual gamer.
Before this, (Vanilla and BC) if you weren't already running the dungeons then you probably weren't going to.
The "why" is what seperated the two gaming types.
It was a heck of a lot of work just to get ready to walk in the dungeon at all. Farming for rep to get equipment/keys/attunement/etc. , Understanding placement, timing, Min/Max gear, rotations, etc.
The hardcore could afford to be elitist because they, in fact, were the elite.
What has happened now is a complete turnabout from what was on offer initially. Those gamers eager to be "elite" experience no real challenge now. That is most likely where the angst from that crowd comes from.
Lack of challenge.
If Blizzard brings the challenge back (both in dungeons and in open world) you'll likely hear fewer complaints from the old guard.
Originally posted by Akais Your article asserts that the new WoW player never really had the chance to be anything but casual due to the game's curent design. No arguing that statement... The real issue in play here is moreso one of balance of intent and not the intent itself. Blizzard changed the difficulty and requirments of its' raids to include a broader spectrum of the audience. This allowed raid level dungeons to become more accessable to the casual gamer. Before this, (Vanilla and BC) if you weren't already running the dungeons then you probably weren't going to. The "why" is what seperated the two gaming types. It was a heck of a lot of work just to get ready to walk in the dungeon at all. Farming for rep to get equipment/keys/attunement/etc. , Understanding placement, timing, Min/Max gear, rotations, etc. The hardcore could afford to be elitist because they, in fact, were the elite. What has happened now is a complete turnabout from what was on offer initially. Those gamers eager to be "elite" experience no real challenge now. That is most likely where the angst from that crowd comes from. Lack of challenge. If Blizzard brings the challenge back (both in dungeons and in open world) you'll likely hear fewer complaints from the old guard.
Well said, bravo.
Personally I'd rather the "elite" not be entailed to acting elitist, being the best doesn't give one the right to act in the typical bad elitist way, in fact the hallmark of a truly elite, good player/person/soldier/writier/whatever is that they are to a point humble, and put their skill to work helping and improving others. Elite players who scorn those who aren't at their level simply for the fun of it aren't elite in my eyes.
I'm not sure exactly how the raid finder is going to negativly affect the WoW raiding community. Raiding guilds can still do their weekly 10 and 25 mans and now more casual players have the option of experiencing the new raid for themselves at the price of lower quality gear. Win win in my book, but I guess mine is just one of many opinions.
"Hard core" players tend to have more talent/skill/experience/discipline than casuals. How did they get that? The talent part is inherent. Some people are simply better than others at *some* things. Skill/experience are time/effort based. In other words, they spent the time, and effort to gain that skill/experience. Discipline is a matter of character, priorities and focus.
The above may make the "hard core" players better *gamers*, but may or may not make them better people. But looking at the general population, one finds that the overwhelming majority lack many of the traits of the "hard core". But there tends to be a LOT more of them these days. Business being about making the best profit, and these games being very expensive to produce, who does it make the most sense to focus on? The casuals of course.
Not everyone wants to be "challenged" at every step of the way in a game. There is also a fine line between challenge and fustration. Cross that line too often, and players will find something else to do with their time and money. Thats simply human nature, and the nature of business. Until middleware brings down the cost of creating these games a LOT, thats going to be the reality that we all face.
The premise that there exists a "modern WoW player" is inherently flawed.
Just like you can't say "average" WoW player or "average" American or European etc.
Think about what an average actually is. You have a fairly even number above and below the average.
So you have say a 1-10 scale of hardcore-ness -
100 hardcore WoW players 10/10 and 100 Casual WoW players 1/10 on the scale.
The average is 5/10 but not a single one of those 200 WoW players is a 5/10 they are either 1/10 or 10/10.
See what I mean?
This is why you CAN'T have just two difficulty modes - One for the 1% at the very top and one for the other 99% just doesn't work.
Raid finder is adding a 3rd option. This is a win.
The argument against people being able to SEE content for lesser rewards is a BAD argument because it just proves without a fraction of a doubt how spoiled and elitist the cry-baby quote "hardcore" whiner is. "MEH Other people are doing my stuff!?!?!" No, no they are not doing your stuff they are doing the easy mode because they are not as good, it's ok relax kid.
I'd understand the "elite" being ticked-off if the hard-modes were easy enough for the 99% to actually do, but they are not. Even the "normal" modes are too hard for what, a good 1/3rd to half the players?
Whatever als long as the modern WoW player sticks to his game and they don't ruin more challenging games by asking for same crap, I'm fine with whatever easymode their game offers and even freeloot.
Have turned my back on the westernized crap long ago, only hope are challenging and more communitydriven asia games.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Time is the only factor seperating hardcore "raiders" from casual "raiders/gamers/etc." Mmos were never about skill, or talent, or anything else. They've always been about how much time you are willing to devote to them. Bigger companies making content available to all audiences makes sense, which is why this trend will likely continue with your higher budget mmo titles. The bottom line, people just need to chill out a little and realize that with newer games, you can still get your shiny new gear and you actually have time to play other games. Or do other things. Or go outside.
9 Million people joined WoW when raiding was at its peak (11 if you count Ulduar)
3 Million have joined since they changed that formula which coinsided with WoW xpacs getting China released.
More people have played and quit WoW than are currently playing.
Take from that what you will.
Raiding hardcore was never about gear. It was always about the raid group, the guild, the faction races, the server races.
WoW these days is ALL about gear, so much so that it's become pointless to chase that rabbit. Raiding is mediocre now when it used to be epic. A main room with cupboard bosses is not fun or adventurous compared to exploring AQ40 or Karazhan or Ulduar.
Great that there's a game that caters to people who don't want to spend too much time and want sparklies. But shame there's no game current or incoming that can offer what WoW used to for us genuine raiders.
Still can't get past level 40 in this game without getting bored and tired of "go fetch this and go kill that" type of quests. So I decided to just delete WoW off my pc and never fall for the "all mmos are crap so I guess I'll play WoW instead just because " trap.
Originally posted by Ozmodan Seriously, has the OP ever raided in Wow? Pickup groups just do not work period. If you want to raid you join a raid guild. Trying to hint that these raids would be available to the masses is humorous. Available yes, doable no.
You're wrong. They've made the raids PuGgable and EASIER to make up for the fact that people will be PuGing them. If you find a raid through the raid finder, therefore, it will be easy enough that a PuG can do it. So yes.....these raids will now be available to everyone, essentially. I'm fine with that, but I know a lot of my ex-guildie elitist raiders.....are NOT. Personally, I'm so sick of the raid grind that I don't care if I never raid again as long as I live. Six years was plenty enough. I think it's great that everyone who PAYS THE SAME 15 bucks a month is now going to have the opportunity to see those raid parts of the story.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Yeah ... a few thousand nerds setting in their mom's basement 20 hours a day weren't going to exactly keep the lights on at Blizz long term though, were they?
to be fair , raids in wow for pugs work IF
You already have the gear to do it anyway (or at least tank heales geared)
The raid is nerfed , like raids are now (even FL )
raid buff (ICC 30% buff)
Now 4.3 changes that , now u can go and raid the newest raid in "easy mode" with RF , or normal mode with your guild , Heroic mode after u complete the normal mode.
4.3 lowers the difficulty in order to let ppl raid
the modern wow players just want gear and doesnt care if its come from raid /pvp/ or mail , will always take the easy way to get it
because having purples is everything wow has to offer =S
Originally posted by SaintViktor Still can't get past level 40 in this game without getting bored and tired of "go fetch this and go kill that" type of quests. So I decided to just delete WoW off my pc and never fall for the "all mmos are crap so I guess I'll play WoW instead just because " trap.
I really want to delete it, it's just sitting there taking up 30+ gigs, but every other MMO has disappointed me in terms of fluidity of action, not to mention purpose. I'll probably only delete WoW when GW2 is released. But having it on my computer makes me feel like I've got gum stuck to my shoe..
I personally hate all aspect of raiding.
The wait time, the annoucement, the wait time, the gathering, the wait time, the preparation, the wait time, the organization, the wait time, the assingment of duties, the wait time, OOM, the wait time, the roll on gear, the wait time, the wipe, the wait time, the blame drama, the wait time....you get the picture. A lot of wasted time waiting.
Also the fact that it took 25-man to do the raid an only 3-5 people gets something shiny. Most of the time, 4-6 hrs of raid and have nothing to show for it because 3 items dropped for a Rogue who's not even in the raid group.
Yeah, raiding should be for hardcore and making it casual with "finders" only angers casual players.
Blizzard don't get it. Casual players don't go in raid to see how the raid works or get exprerience...they raid only if it is worth their time, meaning, after hours of spending in a raid that they are rewarded more than a repair bill.
Originally posted by just1opinion Originally posted by Ozmodan Seriously, has the OP ever raided in Wow? Pickup groups just do not work period. If you want to raid you join a raid guild. Trying to hint that these raids would be available to the masses is humorous. Available yes, doable no.
You're wrong. They've made the raids PuGgable and EASIER to make up for the fact that people will be PuGing them. If you find a raid through the raid finder, therefore, it will be easy enough that a PuG can do it. So yes.....these raids will now be available to everyone, essentially. I'm fine with that, but I know a lot of my ex-guilie elitist raiders.....are NOT. Personally, I'm so sick of the raid grind that I don't care if I never raid again as long as I live. Six years was plenty enough. I think it's great that everyone who PAYS THE SAME 15 bucks a month is now going to have the opportunity to see those raid parts of the story.
I agree with your whole post but the green part is something I have been saying for years. Everyone pays the same why not let them see the content? It is something that should have happened years ago.
Wow I was so close to arguing with you then I re-read and we agree completely.
Originally posted by BadSpock The absolute 100% truth is that the hardcore and former hardcore are just upset other people are doing "their" stuff now too. I used to be one of those elites who thought I was better then your "average" player because I raided in Vanilla and BC. That mentality kept up into Wrath as my guild and I "easily" bested hard-mode content like Sarth 3D. Only achievements/hard mode content I wasn't able to complete in that first tier of Wrath raiding were Immortal (someone would always die during KT) and Malygos under 6 min or whatever. 10-man 3D? Done, 10-man everything? Done. Two 25-man achieves missing... I actually "cared" enough to check the rankings etc. on the server to know I was in top 3 Warrior tanks on the server, top 25 geared players over-all. Ulduar hit and my 10-person group I led (Main Tank=me) rocked it hard, but our full guild 25 group just kept having issues with certain bosses and got "stuck" in progression. This fact coupled with how much better my 10-person group was doing then the other 10 group and the combined full guild 25 group, there started to be a LOT of drama... eventually, guild broke up. I still say Ulduar was the last "great" raid, though Icecrown was very fun and cool it was just too easy on normal. Trial of the Crusader was a joke, I came back after months off, months after TOC was released and easily pugged it. Farming pre-current Tier raid gear was jokingly easy from heroics, etc. Now? I am actually quite pleased they are introducing the Raid Finder. The game should have ALWAYS had 3 difficulty modes instead of two. Having content for the 1% at the top (hard modes) and then content for the other 99% just doesn't work. Easy mode (PUG mode) for peopel who just want to see it/experience it and don't really care abotu being cutting edge (what I've turned into) Normal mode for guilds/groups and maybe really good PUGs to progress and still have that challenge/progression/reward system etc. Hard Mode for the elite. Would make it much, much easier to tune the content to the oppropriate level, give the hardcore their elite content and gear etc. Fully 100% support this, recently re-subbed and am working on getting myself pre-geared enough to PUG Deathwing easy-mode when it releases. Just to see the content, then I'll be done with WoW again until next expansion (maybe, depends on what it is)
You are absolutely 100% wrong. Most raiders enjoy the fact that raiding is more accessable for everyone. Hardcore players dont mind it either. The only problem raiders and hardcore players ahve a problem is when things are "dumbed down" so that anyone can complete the content.
As a cuyrrent raider and , retired hardcore player, I love the ideas of thing like dungeon finder because it gets more peple involved. I do however hate it when things are either dumbed down or the time sinks are decreased for the more casual players. MMO's are meant to take a long time to complete. Games current content and then expansion content usually have enough in them to last the "average player" until the next patch. The problem is the hardcore people finish content thats suppose to take a year to finish in only 2 months.
The problem comes on how companies deal with this issue. WoW handles it in a extremely wrong fashion. 1st they make new high end content almost impossbile to beat and plus add pointless times sinks to complete before you can even try. Then when the average gamers catches up., all the sudden the time sinks are deleted and the encouters are gimped.
This no only punishes hard core people for playing the game a lot and efficiently, but also just encourages average players to hang back and wait for the nerf to high end content.
But anyways back to your "100% absolute correct" statement....Its false. I'm a raider, I was hardcore, and I have not only no problem with making high end content accessable, but encourage it.
I enjoy hard mode. I might not always play it on every game but I enjoy the challenge. I think that it is one of those that if it is to see the content then have no problem that all of it is available to be experienced in some way. I have to say that I am one that I would just enjoy seeing three versions of raids when going into them with it being "casual", "hardcore", and "elitist". Give them different rewards is fine as well if necessary.
It was foreseeable that Activision would make some more moves to bring endgame-content to everyone. They've lost alot of subs and some serious heavy weights are about to enter the ring. Nowadays even they can't afford to put money into developing content which 5% of the playerbase takes not of.
I have no problem with 12year old brats (either muted or screaming on vent) or 30min-time-a-day housewifes (which are 60% of their 30mins distracted by either chatting or doing something else aside gaming) raiding light versions of content -because i won't see both in my raids anyway.
Once again, we have a case of someone completely missing the point.
The issue with us "elitists" or "old schoolers" is not the assumption that any one who played post whatever expansion in WOW is a "Casual", but the resultant brainwashing by blizzard that this style of play is the only worthwhile style of play, and any "old" style of play is just outdated and stupid.
The problem is these people lap it up like its the nectar of the gods. They then spend countless hours on the forums mocking and arguing with old schoolers who are trying to tell them that there are OTHER WAYS TO PLAY MMOS.
The secondary issue at hand is one of what i feel is a growing sense of entitlment which extends outside of MMO's (i.e. i believe it is a societal issue manifesting itself in MMO's). These people are the true problem. They're the ones that don't understand that nothing worth having in life is gained easily. So then a cycle happens. These people complain that they pay $15/mo just like everyone else and shouldnt be penalized because they can only play 1 hour a day, 3 days a week or something along those lines. So, developers fold because they think that this is the core of the playerbase, and they make content extremely easy and quickly done. Now, said gamers hoot in pleasure, obtain their "phat lewtz" and less than a week later they're posting on the forums that the game is boring and "doesn't have enough content" and blah blah blah blah.
Even Blizzard identified the problem and realized they screwed the pooch by catering to the ultra casuals and tried to remedy the issue with cataclysm. All of a sudden running a dungeon required thought. It wasnt a guaranteed win. You couldnt just queue up half asleep and faceroll the content and collect your rewards. Bosses required thought, reactionary ability, spacial reasoning. Groups pulls occasionally required CC, etc.
What ended up happening? Blizzard had a massive divide and backlash in the community from people who supported it, and people who were used to their welfare epics who were pissed that they had to actually work for something.
And on a complete side note, i'm sorry, but vanilla wow the "epitome" of raiding difficulty? As an old EQ vet i just find that entire statement laughable. Perhaps within the realm of WOW i would agree with that statement. But even vanilla WOW raids were nothing to write home about. Truly the most difficult part was not the fights, but getting 40 people together to pull their collective heads out of their asses and do what they're supposed to. Unfortunately with the quality of the average player in WOW, this was a lot more difficult than in a game like EQ, which by nature of its difficult leveling process, and difficult content, weeded out mediocre players by max level. Sucky players simply couldnt make it to the end of the level curve, and as a result you could have a reasonable expectation that a max level character wasnt an imbecile and could perform at a basic level.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
I played WoW for almost 4 years, with a game time of an average of 6-7 hours per day. Up untill WoTLK got out, where that average went down drastically....then Cataclysm came out and it was it for me.
I have played many big name MMOs, and some where the name was not "there", and i still think WoW is hands down the best game experience i ever had and one of the, if not "the", most polished MMO out there. So whats the problem for me...
...the problem is that there is no real upside by paying for a game that doesnt reward veteran players for their "loyalty" if you can call it that way. I have seen some games where players would be rewarded by time spent playing it, others for what they do while playing and even played a game where actually building your avatar was a combined effort of the mentioned previously.
To make it clear, every expansion in WoW its a sudden reset to all of your past efforts playing the game, with zero or almost none recognition for what you have achieved but some crappy achievements tittles. I really dont care if some guild was already doing end game raid, because WoW is not only about raids. It has a massive lore and world to explore (it had, now you only click a button to join Queues....talk about messing things badly eh?) and it has good to great PvP. I was even lucky to be in a guild where raid progress was made fairly quickly, not the best guild in EU region, but was the best of the server i was in.
So reply to this if you can: whats the difference between an avatar of a player playing WoW since Vanilla, and the avatar of a player playing it since Cataclysm, when the next expansion comes out? Wheres the reward? Wheres the real organic feel to the MMO world? It has none.
Even games like WAR offered something to the veteran player. It doesnt have to be something of big impact in the game...but something has to be there....
...and thats why i now play EVE online.
My 2 cents on it ofc. Thank you.
The problem isn't between casual and hardcore, but that there are too many people playing WoW who are not actual "gamers".
it seems like very few of MMORPG.com's "specific game" writers (the eve writer being an exception) actually have really dove into the depths of their respective game.
in other words, though i think the above article was very well written, doesnt it make sense for the website's wow writer to be at the very least a FORMER raider?
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, DFUW
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.