Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

What Would You Do With End Game?

DauntisDauntis Kansas City, MOPosts: 547Member Uncommon

I hear people constantly bitching and moaning about end game content. (Because most people forget the journey to end game and focus on it too much, imho). Well what would you do to make end game better?

I would like to give an opinion on this post, but if I agree I will offend people who disagree. While if I disagree my comment will be seen as inflammatory. Either way I will get banned by this site full of the most delicate flowers in online gaming. Ban people for giving honest opinions... beautiful. Unfortunately I still like the articles.

«13

Comments

  • FadedbombFadedbomb Aiken, SCPosts: 2,081Member

    Originally posted by Dauntis

    I hear people constantly bitching and moaning about end game content. (Because most people forget the journey to end game and focus on it too much, imho). Well what would you do to make end game better?

     

    I'd first create a NON-Linear game, because LINEAR games eventually have an END to their path. Then the developers have tack MORE on to the end of them.

     

    My end game, would be a Galactic War with dynamically shifting territories based on PLAYER actions, with a Player Economy. Meaning, the "End Game" would be what ever the PLAYERS breath life into with DYNAMIC mechanics that my company/Dev team would create. 

     

    A DYNAMIC Player controlled "End Game" is one that almost can never end as long as the Developers are SLIGHTLY breathing life into more mechanics!

    The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
    Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member

    Originally posted by Dauntis

    I hear people constantly bitching and moaning about end game content. (Because most people forget the journey to end game and focus on it too much, imho). Well what would you do to make end game better?

    Simple...there just wouldn't be one. Constant journey, endlessly new areas to explore, etc...as it should be.

    Just as EQ has done with it's now 17 expansions. Of course, making it a bit more difficult to keep people from capping in a month or less would help...but then again...then most would cry it takes too long and is too hard. /eyeroll

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common

    I wouldn't make one. I would design a B2P game from the ground up and stick with it. Rather than make the game last, I'd make the game fun. Fun enough that you would by expansions and sequels.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • DJJazzyDJJazzy louisville, COPosts: 2,053Member

    end game, the end of the game?

    If "end game" means perpetually looking for the new shiny so I can get that +1 stat on my gear, then no thank you.

  • XzenXzen Los Alamos, NMPosts: 2,607Member Common

    I would make end game 90% user created content. The forming of factions and politics by the players that have impact on the world.

  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon

    Should never be an end game. Also if people wouldnt rush to max level and skip half the content................................

  • AmarantharAmaranthar OhioPosts: 2,422Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Xzen

    I would make end game 90% user created content. The forming of factions and politics by the players that have impact on the world.

    I agree here. But also, it's critical that the game has multiple plots, story lines, and mysteries moving along at all times.

    This is your 10% you didn't mention. But this part can involve all the players and be 100% part of what's happening in the world.

    Once upon a time....

  • DJJazzyDJJazzy louisville, COPosts: 2,053Member

    Originally posted by Amaranthar

    Originally posted by Xzen

    I would make end game 90% user created content. The forming of factions and politics by the players that have impact on the world.

    I agree here. But also, it's critical that the game has multiple plots, story lines, and mysteries moving along at all times.

    This is your 10% you didn't mention. But this part can involve all the players and be 100% part of what's happening in the world.

    Well the game should provide the backdrop for that. Then the players can influence all of that to shape the world in different directions depending on what they do.

    Static "endgame" play needs to change.

  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member

    1. World PvP in the DAoC mode with more then 2 factions, although I think the GW2 WvWvW mode may be better.

    2. Meaningful Alternate Advancement.  A system that uses XP earned to advance skills in a non linear dynamic fashion similar to how Asherons Call does it, although I would make it a soft cap and not a hard cap so an experianced player that has played for years will have a slight advantage over newbies but not enough where it would be unbalanced.

    3. A dynamic loot system similar to Asherons Call and Diablo.

    4. Monthly content updates with new quests and dungeons and a storyline that players can follow.

    Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

    Playing: GW2
    Waiting on: TESO
    Next Flop: Planetside 2
    Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.

    image

  • odinsrathodinsrath louisville, KYPosts: 814Member Uncommon

    "what would you do with end game? "

    id make sure there isnt much of this "end game"

    what happened to depth im mmorpg? once upon a time in mmo's people didnt race to the max lvl and raid till their eyes bleed and sit in meaningless arenas to pvp ..it was about depth / challenge / lore and defending what you owned or lands...in most cases it was much more harder to get to max lvl in a mmo..then just to relise "hell im nowhere even close to being done" like this end game people talk about

    so in other words id just make sure it had soo much depth that when the 1st expansion hit..people are not even close to attempt the raids but still be able to visit or quest in the new areas..pumping out a new expan pac every week / month / 3 months is great for the pocket but in my mind not so great for a great mmorpg..it just shows how week the gameplay is IMO

    image

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,682Member Uncommon

    Endgame isn't a problem.

    Stagnant or no-longer-interesting game mechanics are the only problem.  (Specific problems with specific endgames.)

    The concept of "endgame" isn't bad at all.  Virtually every game has Tutorial->Endgame.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • AmarantharAmaranthar OhioPosts: 2,422Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Endgame isn't a problem.

    Stagnant or no-longer-interesting game mechanics are the only problem.  (Specific problems with specific endgames.)

    The concept of "endgame" isn't bad at all.  Virtually every game has Tutorial->Endgame.

    That's exactly the problem.

    Once upon a time....

  • AmarantharAmaranthar OhioPosts: 2,422Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by DJJazzy

    Originally posted by Amaranthar


    Originally posted by Xzen

    I would make end game 90% user created content. The forming of factions and politics by the players that have impact on the world.

    I agree here. But also, it's critical that the game has multiple plots, story lines, and mysteries moving along at all times.

    This is your 10% you didn't mention. But this part can involve all the players and be 100% part of what's happening in the world.

    Well the game should provide the backdrop for that. Then the players can influence all of that to shape the world in different directions depending on what they do.

    Static "endgame" play needs to change.

    I completely agree. Any story/plot whatever needs to flow with what the players do about it.

    Once upon a time....

  • just2duhjust2duh City, NSPosts: 1,290Member

     I'd make it so you'd eventually have to start over :P

      By having your character dying of old age/retiring, and your next will be a descendant of it with some bonus traits/stats/skills (depending on which class they were, sort of like a reborn system with some either predetermand or selected things carrying over to the next), and just have it keep progressing from there for infinity (probably need a limit to how many times it can be done without needing to replace some things).

     Or something like an alternate deminsion/world with increased difficulty/loot where your characters carry over (think Diablo with it's regular playthrough, then Hell difficulty etc, with it's harder mobs and better loot while keeping the same characters and gear you had).

     Personally I would like to see a hybrid of both of those things mashed together, imo that would be 100x better than raid/pvp grind with the occasional new content.

  • JoliustJoliust stoughton, WIPosts: 1,329Member

    I never heard the word end game until WoW had been out for a while. People capped sooo fast compared to earlier games, and there wasn't anything to do at 60.

    MMOs should be more about the journey. End game should be used as a reward rather than another silly ladder to expand game play. Even themeparks should be less linear at the top tier of play. The player has been playing the game for a few months at least, they can be given more control to do as they please.

    Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,682Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Joliust

    I never heard the word end game until WoW had been out for a while. People capped sooo fast compared to earlier games, and there wasn't anything to do at 60.

    MMOs should be more about the journey. End game should be used as a reward rather than another silly ladder to expand game play. Even themeparks should be less linear at the top tier of play. The player has been playing the game for a few months at least, they can be given more control to do as they please.

    Sure, I agree.

    Endgame is journey.  It's not an end; you keep playing; you keep progressing; it's a journey.

    Sadly, most people seem unable to look beyond the "Level" stat to see that there's actually tons of shit to do.

    It almost feels like the people who call endgame games journey-less are the ones who care about the "end".  They're obsessed with one single number no longer progressing (level) while meanwhile there's tons of journey left.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member

    Originally posted by Dauntis

    I hear people constantly bitching and moaning about end game content. (Because most people forget the journey to end game and focus on it too much, imho). Well what would you do to make end game better?

    There should not be something like 'end-game'.  So I would throw away levels totally. There would be no such thing as "level".

     

    How strenght is character would be a combination of skills f.e. 1-100 or 1-300 range, total amount of skill would be hardcapped. +  stats like strenght /agi/ stamina / etc.

     

    There would be no linear region a -> region b -> region c  way.  Of course there would be quest lines that you could follow but there would be at least few of them. 

     

    Game would be with player-made economy , no loot on pvp , but there would be item-decay over time though. 

    Game would NOT have start and finish.

     

    Vast , open world + dungeons + rvr pvp DaoC style.

     

    'progress' would be much slower than it is in games like WoW and skills/stats would matter less than levels nowadays , so there would be no thing like in level based games that level 50 character can kill 20 level 10 characters. 

    Max stats/skills characters should be stong enough to maybe kill maximum 3-4 relatively new characters or 2-3 charactrers with skill/stats in mid-range.

  • ExostoticExostotic Fremont, CAPosts: 26Member

    I think there is a lot of naivete in the above posts. No end game means you hemorrhage subs.

    It's funny that you created this topic because I was just thinking of doing the same. There has been so much complaint about end game on these forums lately, but I sense that no one really has a better answer. 



    • Massive PVP is not the solution. I, like many others, do not enjoy pvp. So pvp won't keep my subscription. 


    • Saying "people shouldn't rush to end game" is pointless, since people will do what they do. If you attempt to make leveling a crazy, asian grind, most westerners will not do it now days. If you try to just add a ton of low level content, you'll still have people that skip it. 


    • Removing leveling all together isn't a terrible idea; however, at some point, players will have "enough" skills to be classified as high level, and will want more things to do than just "kill 10000 creatures to get your next skill up". It's like alternative advancement without ever having normal advancement. 


    My opinion: you'll need a mix. You have to encourage players to participate in all the features of the game at low level. Some players will skip it, and you can't always win them over. You'll need to have end-game raid content for people that love that stuff. Having massive pvp will appease the pvp masses. 


     


    So you really only have two options:


    1. Make a game for a small subset of people and only give them that. You won't have a million+ subs, but that's not what your company cares about, so it's whatever. 


    2. Make your game for the masses. You'll have to create a ton of content, and try to do a little of everything. It's expensive and could fail horrendously 


    As a side note, I personally see a ton of potential in Bioware's mini-game system. I think I could be appeased for a long time with swoop racing, pod racing, arena battles, etc., and being able to watch and bet on all of the above. I really hope BW has listened to people on that one. 

  • AmarantharAmaranthar OhioPosts: 2,422Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Exostotic

    I think there is a lot of naivete in the above posts. No end game means you hemorrhage subs.

    It's funny that you created this topic because I was just thinking of doing the same. There has been so much complaint about end game on these forums lately, but I sense that no one really has a better answer. 



    • Massive PVP is not the solution. I, like many others, do not enjoy pvp. So pvp won't keep my subscription. 


    • Saying "people shouldn't rush to end game" is pointless, since people will do what they do. If you attempt to make leveling a crazy, asian grind, most westerners will not do it now days. If you try to just add a ton of low level content, you'll still have people that skip it. 


    • Removing leveling all together isn't a terrible idea; however, at some point, players will have "enough" skills to be classified as high level, and will want more things to do than just "kill 10000 creatures to get your next skill up". It's like alternative advancement without ever having normal advancement. 


    My opinion: you'll need a mix. You have to encourage players to participate in all the features of the game at low level. Some players will skip it, and you can't always win them over. You'll need to have end-game raid content for people that love that stuff. Having massive pvp will appease the pvp masses. 


     


    So you really only have two options:


    1. Make a game for a small subset of people and only give them that. You won't have a million+ subs, but that's not what your company cares about, so it's whatever. 


    2. Make your game for the masses. You'll have to create a ton of content, and try to do a little of everything. It's expensive and could fail horrendously 


    As a side note, I personally see a ton of potential in Bioware's mini-game system. I think I could be appeased for a long time with swoop racing, pod racing, arena battles, etc., and being able to watch and bet on all of the above. I really hope BW has listened to people on that one. 

    Ya see, when making an MMORPG developers have to think of themselves as World Makers, not Game Makers. They have to get away from that Monkee-Get-Banana design philosophy. No "End Game", no directed connect the dots game design. Worlds. That players can "live" in, make their own way, doing it their own way. This seems to be a real challenge to most game designers today. Yet UO was such a world, and Eve is along those lines.

    And you know what? Speaking of UO reminds me of this, it became very boring when they started changing it to be more like other games and adding gear level style design and other "like others" design elements, while moving away from the story based on lore and events based on that. I'm not talking about wide open PvP, I'm talking about just going about the game world and "living" in it. Although, the PvP has become pretty meaningless too, and open PvP removal has made the game less interesting. Somewhere in the middle might be very good, or some new take on factions connetced to the world and it's story.

    But what am I saying? I'm wasting my breath. This really is beyond the current corporate designer environment. It's not all the individuals, it's the fraternity that's held back by some, as an integral part of the whole.

    Once upon a time....

  • TheCrow2kTheCrow2k Adelaide, AKPosts: 953Member

    Endgame plan.

     

    - Do not dedicate much time to hardcore raiding since so few people ever reach it.

    - Plan to roll out updated content at set intervals.

    - Incorporate random generated instances (with associated quests would be nice) for single players and groups, scaling difficulty and rewards acordingly. Thing Diablo with a new dungeon layout every time.

    - Plan to have frequent world events that last 7-14 days at a time.

    - Plan for sideways progression system at cap. this can also include some form of XP accumulation system for when you lift the level cap if you want to.

  • ClassicstarClassicstar rotjeknorPosts: 2,690Member

    Maybe when we one day finally getting a real dynamic world en deformation of the ground we have endless changing world to play.

    Storm's, tornado's, earthquake's, tsunami's or vulcano's changing world  completely and we have constantly new challenge in end game citys destroys hunting grounds changed.

    Also roaming mobs and i mean they can live in large area not like now on small spot and never leave that small area. Npc or humanoid mobs who also can build or ocupied lands spaces like caves.

    For example you clear out a dungeon and some humanoid tribe see cave is empty and deside to live in that dungeon you cleared a few hours ago.

    A  real dynamic world would be one of means to constantly change end game.

    Make mmo's a real adventure again instead of the hold hand follow game guidance we have now in most mmo's.

     

    MB:MSI Z97XPOWER AC
    CPU:Intell Icore7 4790k
    GPU:MSI 2x AMD 290X
    MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
    PSU:Corsair AX1200i
    OS:Windows 8.1 64bit)not yet sure i upgrade to windows 10 need to know alot more with integrated cloud and other maybe spy stuff)

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,934Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Dauntis

    I hear people constantly bitching and moaning about end game content. (Because most people forget the journey to end game and focus on it too much, imho). Well what would you do to make end game better?

    Lets see.

    * I would add a more sand box styled endgame to themeparks. Let guilds build guild cities together and add a lot of features and possibilities to them. Let the guild entrust a building in town to each player and let that player get npcs, furnitures and goods to the building.

    * Let players run constests, like archery contests and tournaments. Not to mention gambling, it is easy to add some mechanics for this. 

    * How about adding a Blood bowl league to the game?

    * If the game have soloquests earlier it must offer endgame quests for those people as well. Having people solo their way to max level (fastest way in more than a few games) and then totally changing the way they must play makes no sense and I think that is the reason so many people "bungy play" MMOs.

    * Less focus on gear. Why can a maxed out character only get better gear but not gain any new skills whatsoever?

    * AA. In EQ2 you need to spend time after you reached max level to max out the points you specc with as well. Works like a charm.

    * Farmville. Let players who want to have a farm where they can plant seeds and have animals. They can sell mats to crafters and raise mounts on it.

  • QuesaQuesa Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,246Member

    I'd much rather "End Game" be handled much like EO.  You always continue to develop.

  • zaylinzaylin Olympia, WAPosts: 789Member

    Originally posted by Onomas

    Should never be an end game. Also if people wouldnt rush to max level and skip half the content................................

    HAhahhahah...AHhaahh {slaps his knee}..Bingo!!

    Also reminded me of a thread about SW:TOR ,where a person asked " Is there a button to skip all the story&dialouge,so I can level faster?"...

  • CorehavenCorehaven Colorado Springs, COPosts: 1,538Member

    Originally posted by Loke666

    Originally posted by Dauntis

    I hear people constantly bitching and moaning about end game content. (Because most people forget the journey to end game and focus on it too much, imho). Well what would you do to make end game better?

    Lets see.

    * I would add a more sand box styled endgame to themeparks. Let guilds build guild cities together and add a lot of features and possibilities to them. Let the guild entrust a building in town to each player and let that player get npcs, furnitures and goods to the building.

    * Let players run constests, like archery contests and tournaments. Not to mention gambling, it is easy to add some mechanics for this. 

    * How about adding a Blood bowl league to the game?

    * If the game have soloquests earlier it must offer endgame quests for those people as well. Having people solo their way to max level (fastest way in more than a few games) and then totally changing the way they must play makes no sense and I think that is the reason so many people "bungy play" MMOs.

    * Less focus on gear. Why can a maxed out character only get better gear but not gain any new skills whatsoever?

    * AA. In EQ2 you need to spend time after you reached max level to max out the points you specc with as well. Works like a charm.

    * Farmville. Let players who want to have a farm where they can plant seeds and have animals. They can sell mats to crafters and raise mounts on it.

     

     

    I had started to write my post and then thought I better check what other people had said, and saw this and gave up.   Why write a post thats pretty much already been written.  Well said sir. 

     

    In my now non existent post I was going to suggest some of these things but suggest it be done on End Game Servers that might be an alternate reality or a gateway thats traveled through so players had a fresh landscape to work with. 

     

    All I can really say is ......   THIS ^^ 

«13
Sign In or Register to comment.