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Why PvP players and focus had destroyed MMORPG gaming!

24

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  • vektorwithakvektorwithak perthPosts: 2Member
    IMO, it's the pve content that causes such problems to pvp balancing. Just when one classes numbers have been balanced, new tiers of content and loot grant pve players an ever increasing stat line and with it damage output(in mist cases). Using wow as an example as it's an mmo I have the most playtime with, original wow was never balanced, there was clear rock paper scissors design and no matter what you did, if you were a Druid, warlocks killed you, if you were a warrior, Druids killed you, if you were a warlock, well you get the picture.

    But then gear scaling comes into play, all of a sudden said Druid can heal himself with one spell to recover from a out geared warlocks damage... This isn't fun... Nerf nerf nerf(this actually did happen). But now it's back where it started...

    Then even with the introduction of balancing through seperate itemization as blizzard did with resilience on pvp, the fact that players were often rewarded in many cases to not build pure pvp gear, meaning they have a larger pool of damage scaling stats meant in many cases the strong just got stronger or were carried... Worse still, some simply time sinked using bots or farmers to attain gear.

    But I digress, my point stands, usually it's the problem of taking each new tier of progressions ever sky rocketing stat line that is needed to create the feeling of progression in PVE that once taken to a PVP arena simply ruins games. Without all players in PVP content being forced to utilize only pvp, survival based (not damage based) stats, how can there ever be fair fights?

    I haven't even mentioned how CC and utility spells come into play as they are needed to make more challenging pve encounters but again, being chain feared(or similarly crowd controlled) to death, does not lead to fun or engaging play....
  • stayontargetstayontarget Tacoma, WAPosts: 6,068Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Painlezz


    In an effort to avoid a wall of text I’ll try to keep this short and sweet.


     


    PvP has destroyed the MMORPG gaming experience for all of us.  The idea that a “Wizard” with huge fireballs and freezing ice spells should be a balanced fight vs a dude with a sword and shield is stupid.  The idea that a class with a unique spell, making them fun and enjoyable to play in PvE, yet extremely overpowered in PvP, should lose that ability completely is stupid!


    Look back at every game that has added PvP and what has become of it.


     


    I’m not saying PvP is bad or should be removed from games.  I fully enjoy PvP…  In counter strike, in league of legends, in Heroes of Newerth… 


     


    MMORPG should never have balanced PvP.  MASSIVE does not mean 5v5 or even less.  Game balance should be on battlegrounds and huge fights.  Never 1v1 or 2v2 encounters.


     


    If a player has a huge fiery death spell that explodes another player in 1 shot, who cares?  If they happen to one-shot 1 player in a 100v100 battle once every 10 min that means NOTHING in the grand scheme of things.


     


    We can’t have interesting PvE content (or even PvP content) if every class is balanced to be 1v1 capable.  At that point everyone ends up being the same with tools to combat everyone else.   

     I have yet to see a mmorpg that has balanced classes,  I have seen games that are very close to being balanced though.

    There are two thoughts that come to mind when I read your post. 

    1) No game should ever add or tac-on pvp to a pve game, it does not work if you do. 

    2) On an even playing field (same gear & character level) no class should ever 1 shot another player....that's just bad coding & planning by the Dev's or they desided to "tac-on" pvp in their pve game.

    Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...

  • DerWotanDerWotan NorrathPosts: 1,012Member
    Spot on OP I am with you. The solo "instant gratification" I want PvP and E-sports asap crowd really has ruined the genre. They are vocal, furious and the biggest forums criers you'll ever find.

    For me UO pre Trammel had the best PvP it added some sort of danger and constant fear, if you were red life was a lot harder but fun.

    I really think companies should close official forums and make PvP the way it has been in Everquest or UO. Either make it meaningful or just leave it out for PvP servers without restrictions, but this stupid carebear PvP people are crying for nowadays is a disgrace for PvP as a whole.

    Its really a shame companies aren't wise enough seperating PvP and PvE in terms of abilities. Even Rift (devs claimed they'd never do it that way) did it and lost quite a bit of players.

    We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!

    "Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
    "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,933Member Uncommon

    Closest I'll come to agreeing with the OP is that I think class balance in PVP has been overdone.  I prefer the rock-paper-scissors design.  3 types of classes, each with strengths and weaknesses.

     

    As for this destroying MMORPGs, I don't see it.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • vektorwithakvektorwithak perthPosts: 2Member
    In wow for example again, one shotting(or close to) was possible CFO
    A number of classes even without major gear gaps due to high cooldown abilities being burnt, example of original wows arcane mages rise to prominence in battle grounds especially when the ZG hero trinket was added.

    Mages blows arcane power(more spell damage), Mage pops trinket(more spell damage), Mage casts POM(next spell instant) and the Pyroblast(at the time was one of the biggest nukes and had a massive spell power coefficient leading to excessive scaling through what was intended for pve...
    This same pve trinket continued to imbalance pvp for the rest of the lead up until WOWs first expansion, with other trinkets of similar design being added. If you didn't have one of these coveted PVE trinkets, in many cases pvp was pushing $&it up a hill...
  • twodayslatetwodayslate Almost Mexico, CAPosts: 724Member

    But OP.. you do realize that MMOs were FFAPVPVE (read: clusterfuck with unexpected PVP as your primary concern) before they were seperated into two distinct subgenres right?  Technically, it was PVE that "destroyed MMORPG gaming," as the concept of the PVE-only game with optional (instanced) PVP was the late comer.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon

    One or two games does not define a whole genre, even if those games were some of the first.

    Venge

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • twodayslatetwodayslate Almost Mexico, CAPosts: 724Member

    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    One or two games does not define a whole genre, even if those games were some of the first.

    Venge

    Uh yeah, the chronological order of these game types is very relevant.  This guy is basically saying that before PVP came along (presumably in the EQ era), everything was golden.  What he fails to realize is that before the EQ era, PVP was already there.

    If it helps, compare it to those WoW fanatics who claim that everything prior to Blizzard's New Testament was nothing more than a pagan-filled dark age.  This is the same type of misinformation.

  • blazin-aceblazin-ace Doomed, NCPosts: 302Member

    OP, if you seriously feel that “a game “should not have to worry about balance considerations due to the limiting of creative freedom and scale of character abilities then you should stick to reading books or watching film for your speculative fiction entertainment.

     

    A game presents stories to be vicariously enjoyed while being “played for entertainment” unlike a book or film where the “story is the entertainment.”


     


    By nature of design, games present “competitive” situations against a designed environment or other game participants to be overcome as “part of playing.” As a player, you have the just expectation of being equally valued with other participants in tools of play. Skills are your preview to hone. Otherwise, the game suffers not only competitively but in in a darwinistic inspired lack of variety or real options to explore limiting opportunities for playing enjoyment.


     


     


    OF COURSE THERE SHOULD BE PVP in an MMO roleplaying video game. To think differently is to live beneath a rock. Even LOTRO had to find a way to include it with all their story concerns.


     


     


    Remember that table top roleplaying and roleplaying video games share some traits but are not the same thing and are designed with differing objectives in mind.

  • CeridithCeridith Toronto, ONPosts: 2,980Member

    Originally posted by blazin-ace

    OP, if you seriously feel that “a game “should not have to worry about balance considerations due to the limiting of creative freedom and scale of character abilities then you should stick to reading books or watching film for your speculative fiction entertainment.

     

    A game presents stories to be vicariously enjoyed while being “played for entertainment” unlike a book or film where the “story is the entertainment.”


     


    By nature of design, games present “competitive” situations against a designed environment or other game participants to be overcome as “part of playing.” As a player, you have the just expectation of being equally valued with other participants in tools of play. Skills are your preview to hone. Otherwise, the game suffers not only competitively but in in a darwinistic inspired lack of variety or real options to explore limiting opportunities for playing enjoyment.


     


     


    OF COURSE THERE SHOULD BE PVP in an MMO roleplaying video game. To think differently is to live beneath a rock. Even LOTRO had to find a way to include it with all their story concerns.


     


     


    Remember that table top roleplaying and roleplaying video games share some traits but are not the same thing and are designed with differing objectives in mind.

    LOTRO is the only MMO that has done it right, in my opinion. It's completely segregated off the the rest of the game, and the 'opposing side' to regular players is balanced specifically for PvP to counter regular character.

    Which was related to the OP's point about PvP focus unbalancing and dumbing down the rest of the game, it doesn't happen in LOTRO because of how it's designed -- as a sideshow specifically balanced against the PvE foundation of the game.

  • youllbesorryyoullbesorry Elburn, ILPosts: 8Member

    Pvp is acental for MMORPG's now the type of pvp is probbaly most important, I really think world pvp like vanilla wow as the most fun and they really killed it with all the content they have put into the game and trying to balance it with resil just broke pvp. Also  Battle grounds and Arena's are ok but they get repetative.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Wolfenpride
    I think it's more appropriate to say that the "e-sport" mentality has had it's detrimental effects on the MMO genre for many of us. Not necessarily PvP in itself, as there are one or two good PvP games still trucking along.

    100% agree with this post. PvP is great in mmorpgs. But when you throw it in a revolving door instance, homogenize classes, and slap an esport tournament on it complete with fabulous cash prizes well then you just ruined your mmorpg.
  • Cik_AsalinCik_Asalin SoCal, CAPosts: 3,033Member

    Someone might be onto something here. Sure, it cant be the mundane, homoginized, redundant, instanced content that has anything to do with lackluster single-player-esque, linear, entitlement and welfare nature of what was recognized as a mmorpg.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,753Member Uncommon

    Who cares about being 1-shot?  Lots of people!  Especially if it's not particularly skillful for the 1-shotter to cast the fireball.

    The positives don't justify the negatives in this case.  In fact this thread doesn't really describe why fireball 1-shots are positive, and so insanely positive that they justify the negatives of 1-shots in PVP (which are just bad game design unless there's considerable skill or risk behind it.)

    This comes off as another "Warriors should suck and always die" thread. :/

    Saying that games shouldn't have balanced PVP is just ignorant.  Balance = meaningful decisions.  Imbalance = your decisions don't matter....and if that's the case, why bother playing?

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • gainesvilleggainesvilleg Gainesville, FLPosts: 1,053Member

    Originally posted by Vinterkrig

    mmm the troll bait tastes wonderful

    pvp has its place in MMOs, and it is one of the reasons most games retain subscribers

    or we could say

    I think the fact that "epic" bosses respawn and drop all kinds of random items that have nothing to do with said boss destroyed mmos, or that thousands upon thousands of people run the same quest doing the same thing for the life of the game has ruined mmos... such a silly comment to throw out there because you wanna frolick with a virtual pet through a wonderland of war as long as the war is only brought to you by stupid AI

    LOL

    100% agree...

    GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
    1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
    2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements

  • sonoggisonoggi tdot, ONPosts: 1,119Member

    OP you are wrong. it is the LACK of pvp focus that has ruined MMO's. what happens is that PVP is built on top of a PVE platform. then, devs find out that PVE abilities are unbalanced in PVP and all hell breaks loose. players are caught in the middle. games like Global Agenda and GW2 have their PVE built on top of the PVP balance, which makes perfect sense. all problems solved.

    other option is to just have a PVE-only game.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by twodayslate

    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    One or two games does not define a whole genre, even if those games were some of the first.

    Venge

    Uh yeah, the chronological order of these game types is very relevant.  This guy is basically saying that before PVP came along (presumably in the EQ era), everything was golden.  What he fails to realize is that before the EQ era, PVP was already there.

    If it helps, compare it to those WoW fanatics who claim that everything prior to Blizzard's New Testament was nothing more than a pagan-filled dark age.  This is the same type of misinformation.

    That isn't what I said.  I did not say or imply that the chronological order of games wasn't important.  I stated that one or two games does not define a genre even if those games were first.

    UO an M59 may have been first however MMO's were not defined by having PvP.

    and EQ only had 3 pvp servers out of what 30?

    Venge

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • DerWotanDerWotan NorrathPosts: 1,012Member

    Its like always if people are looking for  balanced PvP go play an FPS thats your style, everyone is the same.

     

    In a MMORPG there can never ever be a balanced  PvP so why waste team making PvE players angry cause their class is getting nerfed for pvp reasons, just doesn't make sense.

    We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!

    "Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
    "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."

  • Mari2kMari2k rzhz, MNPosts: 371Member

    Originally posted by Painlezz


    In an effort to avoid a wall of text I’ll try to keep this short and sweet.


     


    PvP has destroyed the MMORPG gaming experience for all of us.  The idea that a “Wizard” with huge fireballs and freezing ice spells should be a balanced fight vs a dude with a sword and shield is stupid.  The idea that a class with a unique spell, making them fun and enjoyable to play in PvE, yet extremely overpowered in PvP, should lose that ability completely is stupid!


    Look back at every game that has added PvP and what has become of it.


     


    I’m not saying PvP is bad or should be removed from games.  I fully enjoy PvP…  In counter strike, in league of legends, in Heroes of Newerth… 


     


    MMORPG should never have balanced PvP.  MASSIVE does not mean 5v5 or even less.  Game balance should be on battlegrounds and huge fights.  Never 1v1 or 2v2 encounters.


     


    If a player has a huge fiery death spell that explodes another player in 1 shot, who cares?  If they happen to one-shot 1 player in a 100v100 battle once every 10 min that means NOTHING in the grand scheme of things.


     


    We can’t have interesting PvE content (or even PvP content) if every class is balanced to be 1v1 capable.  At that point everyone ends up being the same with tools to combat everyone else.   

    What you are talking about ?

    Look at WoW, 10 complex classes with 3 differend builds and all in all it is balanced. Sure it needs some time, but its possible.

    There will always be dumb whiners that say their class is so underpowered, but thats human thinking, you cant change this.

  • PioneerStewPioneerStew londonPosts: 874Member

    Originally posted by Mari2k

    Originally posted by Painlezz



    In an effort to avoid a wall of text I’ll try to keep this short and sweet.


     


    PvP has destroyed the MMORPG gaming experience for all of us.  The idea that a “Wizard” with huge fireballs and freezing ice spells should be a balanced fight vs a dude with a sword and shield is stupid.  The idea that a class with a unique spell, making them fun and enjoyable to play in PvE, yet extremely overpowered in PvP, should lose that ability completely is stupid!


    Look back at every game that has added PvP and what has become of it.


     


    I’m not saying PvP is bad or should be removed from games.  I fully enjoy PvP…  In counter strike, in league of legends, in Heroes of Newerth… 


     


    MMORPG should never have balanced PvP.  MASSIVE does not mean 5v5 or even less.  Game balance should be on battlegrounds and huge fights.  Never 1v1 or 2v2 encounters.


     


    If a player has a huge fiery death spell that explodes another player in 1 shot, who cares?  If they happen to one-shot 1 player in a 100v100 battle once every 10 min that means NOTHING in the grand scheme of things.


     


    We can’t have interesting PvE content (or even PvP content) if every class is balanced to be 1v1 capable.  At that point everyone ends up being the same with tools to combat everyone else.   

    What you are talking about ?

    Look at WoW, 10 complex classes with 3 differend builds and all in all it is balanced. Sure it needs some time, but its possible.

    There will always be dumb whiners that say their class is so underpowered, but thats human thinking, you cant change this.

    I think you missed the point. WOW is only balanced by constantly tweaking skills, and by everyone having broadly homogenous builds.  There is only an illusion of choice in games like WOW as far as available classes and builds are concerned. 

    Why design an MMO around 1v1 balance, particularly when this 'fairness' is destroyed by ludicrously overpowered equipment.  If you want fair PVP play an FPS. 

    MMO's should be built around battles on a large scale, where the tanks may well be required to protect the mages. 

     

     

  • buegurbuegur Belle Fourche, SDPosts: 458Member

    PvP if done right is a beautiful thing.  I kind of like the Realm vs Realm types that really don't try to balance each class against each class, but balance the class for realm warfare with others.  DaoC was one that was particularly good at that from the beginning, although I would limit the crowd control to individuals. 

    The problem i see with MMorpgs without the higher purpose of RvR warfare is the end game is weak.  You can only do so many High end raids or dungeons before getting bored to death.  The industry needs to come out with more interesting end games maybe in the gender of Star Wars Galaxy where they had just about everything you can imagine to do.  That game exceled in things to do such as building cities, entertaining, crafting etc.  Wish someone would expand on that type of game. :)

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,464Member Uncommon

    I sort of agree with the op but there is still ways to keep it believable and balanced.

    First i don't agree with balance as in dmg for dmg but i beleive in balance as in any class can beat any class if given the skills,tools and mind set to do so.

    Using the mage example versus a warrior,why can't that  warrior block that magic spell with a shield?Further more to cast that powerful magic spell should take time,MUCH longer than the warrior swinging his sword.Then you should have interupts,so although you might eventually unleash a powerful spell on me,i have the chance to block it and or interupt you.

    I think this is where character customization can come in,and in depth stat design.You could build your player to have a higher % to block with a shield or a higher % to interupt with say your sword.Then you could have varied dmg moderations,example if i swing my sword for pure dmg,it has a VERY low chance to parry or interupt,but if i swing it for the purpose of interupting your powerful spell then it should carry a very low damage but also a very high interupt %.

    You can take it even further in depth...

    What if that warrior chooses to not use a shield to block?That's fine,then he should have a higher agility and avoidance for not having that extra weighed down shield.Perhaps that typoe of warrior could further raise his avoidance and parry skills ,instead of going for an all out attack mode.At the same time that warrior could still build for an all out dmg type warrior if that player so chooses using perhaps a duo weild mode.

    This is all called in depth game design,none of these games have it,they are all VERY lazy designs that offer nothing to good pvp.This is why i have little repsect for pvp in mmorpg's,even the maps have no design to offer good pvp.


    Samoan Diamond

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

    Player classes are balanced/homogenized to Damage Per Second.  WOW has perfected this balance, and the clones follow.

    There are other-than-DPS ways to balance player classes but game developers have proven to be extremely unimagineative.

    A good RPG would even let a player ascend into demi-god or god status, again that could be balanced if you think about it, but that would require an imagineative game developer which doesn't exist in this universe.  What role did gods and demi-gods serve in D and D fiction?  No, they didn't spend their time grinding and ganking lowbies.

  • SpandexDroidSpandexDroid Towson, MDPosts: 277Member

    frost mage FTW; QQ more

  • xaritscinxaritscin CaliPosts: 349Member

    a game where you only do roleplay doesnt sounds funny, PvP at least gives you something to do when your waiting for a dungeon or the like.....also, PvP doesnt mean only 1v1 combat, problem is that now games are oriented in "single player team battlegrounds"........so you start a little group but you only focus on killing one by one..........PvP should be like PvE, where you focus on killing the most number of players so you help to achieve victory, at the same time, not one by one.....

    also you cant blame the lack of organization, that's a thing that should be done, there should be group tactics for PvP, not just "get the best gear and fuck them all".....

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