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Originally posted by Painlezz In an effort to avoid a wall of text I’ll try to keep this short and sweet. PvP has destroyed the MMORPG gaming experience for all of us. The idea that a “Wizard” with huge fireballs and freezing ice spells should be a balanced fight vs a dude with a sword and shield is stupid. The idea that a class with a unique spell, making them fun and enjoyable to play in PvE, yet extremely overpowered in PvP, should lose that ability completely is stupid! Look back at every game that has added PvP and what has become of it. I’m not saying PvP is bad or should be removed from games. I fully enjoy PvP… In counter strike, in league of legends, in Heroes of Newerth… MMORPG should never have balanced PvP. MASSIVE does not mean 5v5 or even less. Game balance should be on battlegrounds and huge fights. Never 1v1 or 2v2 encounters. If a player has a huge fiery death spell that explodes another player in 1 shot, who cares? If they happen to one-shot 1 player in a 100v100 battle once every 10 min that means NOTHING in the grand scheme of things. We can’t have interesting PvE content (or even PvP content) if every class is balanced to be 1v1 capable. At that point everyone ends up being the same with tools to combat everyone else.
I have yet to see a mmorpg that has balanced classes, I have seen games that are very close to being balanced though.
There are two thoughts that come to mind when I read your post.
1) No game should ever add or tac-on pvp to a pve game, it does not work if you do.
2) On an even playing field (same gear & character level) no class should ever 1 shot another player....that's just bad coding & planning by the Dev's or they desided to "tac-on" pvp in their pve game.
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We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Closest I'll come to agreeing with the OP is that I think class balance in PVP has been overdone. I prefer the rock-paper-scissors design. 3 types of classes, each with strengths and weaknesses.
As for this destroying MMORPGs, I don't see it.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
But OP.. you do realize that MMOs were FFAPVPVE (read: clusterfuck with unexpected PVP as your primary concern) before they were seperated into two distinct subgenres right? Technically, it was PVE that "destroyed MMORPG gaming," as the concept of the PVE-only game with optional (instanced) PVP was the late comer.
One or two games does not define a whole genre, even if those games were some of the first.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar One or two games does not define a whole genre, even if those games were some of the first. Venge
Uh yeah, the chronological order of these game types is very relevant. This guy is basically saying that before PVP came along (presumably in the EQ era), everything was golden. What he fails to realize is that before the EQ era, PVP was already there.
If it helps, compare it to those WoW fanatics who claim that everything prior to Blizzard's New Testament was nothing more than a pagan-filled dark age. This is the same type of misinformation.
OP, if you seriously feel that “a game “should not have to worry about balance considerations due to the limiting of creative freedom and scale of character abilities then you should stick to reading books or watching film for your speculative fiction entertainment.
A game presents stories to be vicariously enjoyed while being “played for entertainment” unlike a book or film where the “story is the entertainment.”
Originally posted by blazin-ace OP, if you seriously feel that “a game “should not have to worry about balance considerations due to the limiting of creative freedom and scale of character abilities then you should stick to reading books or watching film for your speculative fiction entertainment. A game presents stories to be vicariously enjoyed while being “played for entertainment” unlike a book or film where the “story is the entertainment.” By nature of design, games present “competitive” situations against a designed environment or other game participants to be overcome as “part of playing.” As a player, you have the just expectation of being equally valued with other participants in tools of play. Skills are your preview to hone. Otherwise, the game suffers not only competitively but in in a darwinistic inspired lack of variety or real options to explore limiting opportunities for playing enjoyment. OF COURSE THERE SHOULD BE PVP in an MMO roleplaying video game. To think differently is to live beneath a rock. Even LOTRO had to find a way to include it with all their story concerns. Remember that table top roleplaying and roleplaying video games share some traits but are not the same thing and are designed with differing objectives in mind.
LOTRO is the only MMO that has done it right, in my opinion. It's completely segregated off the the rest of the game, and the 'opposing side' to regular players is balanced specifically for PvP to counter regular character.
Which was related to the OP's point about PvP focus unbalancing and dumbing down the rest of the game, it doesn't happen in LOTRO because of how it's designed -- as a sideshow specifically balanced against the PvE foundation of the game.
Pvp is acental for MMORPG's now the type of pvp is probbaly most important, I really think world pvp like vanilla wow as the most fun and they really killed it with all the content they have put into the game and trying to balance it with resil just broke pvp. Also Battle grounds and Arena's are ok but they get repetative.
Originally posted by WolfenprideI think it's more appropriate to say that the "e-sport" mentality has had it's detrimental effects on the MMO genre for many of us. Not necessarily PvP in itself, as there are one or two good PvP games still trucking along.
Someone might be onto something here. Sure, it cant be the mundane, homoginized, redundant, instanced content that has anything to do with lackluster single-player-esque, linear, entitlement and welfare nature of what was recognized as a mmorpg.
Who cares about being 1-shot? Lots of people! Especially if it's not particularly skillful for the 1-shotter to cast the fireball.
The positives don't justify the negatives in this case. In fact this thread doesn't really describe why fireball 1-shots are positive, and so insanely positive that they justify the negatives of 1-shots in PVP (which are just bad game design unless there's considerable skill or risk behind it.)
This comes off as another "Warriors should suck and always die" thread.
Saying that games shouldn't have balanced PVP is just ignorant. Balance = meaningful decisions. Imbalance = your decisions don't matter....and if that's the case, why bother playing?
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Originally posted by Vinterkrig mmm the troll bait tastes wonderful pvp has its place in MMOs, and it is one of the reasons most games retain subscribers or we could say I think the fact that "epic" bosses respawn and drop all kinds of random items that have nothing to do with said boss destroyed mmos, or that thousands upon thousands of people run the same quest doing the same thing for the life of the game has ruined mmos... such a silly comment to throw out there because you wanna frolick with a virtual pet through a wonderland of war as long as the war is only brought to you by stupid AI
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OP you are wrong. it is the LACK of pvp focus that has ruined MMO's. what happens is that PVP is built on top of a PVE platform. then, devs find out that PVE abilities are unbalanced in PVP and all hell breaks loose. players are caught in the middle. games like Global Agenda and GW2 have their PVE built on top of the PVP balance, which makes perfect sense. all problems solved.
other option is to just have a PVE-only game.
Originally posted by twodayslate Originally posted by VengeSunsoar One or two games does not define a whole genre, even if those games were some of the first. Venge
That isn't what I said. I did not say or imply that the chronological order of games wasn't important. I stated that one or two games does not define a genre even if those games were first.
UO an M59 may have been first however MMO's were not defined by having PvP.
and EQ only had 3 pvp servers out of what 30?
Its like always if people are looking for balanced PvP go play an FPS thats your style, everyone is the same.
In a MMORPG there can never ever be a balanced PvP so why waste team making PvE players angry cause their class is getting nerfed for pvp reasons, just doesn't make sense.
What you are talking about ?
Look at WoW, 10 complex classes with 3 differend builds and all in all it is balanced. Sure it needs some time, but its possible.
There will always be dumb whiners that say their class is so underpowered, but thats human thinking, you cant change this.
Originally posted by Mari2k Originally posted by Painlezz In an effort to avoid a wall of text I’ll try to keep this short and sweet. PvP has destroyed the MMORPG gaming experience for all of us. The idea that a “Wizard” with huge fireballs and freezing ice spells should be a balanced fight vs a dude with a sword and shield is stupid. The idea that a class with a unique spell, making them fun and enjoyable to play in PvE, yet extremely overpowered in PvP, should lose that ability completely is stupid! Look back at every game that has added PvP and what has become of it. I’m not saying PvP is bad or should be removed from games. I fully enjoy PvP… In counter strike, in league of legends, in Heroes of Newerth… MMORPG should never have balanced PvP. MASSIVE does not mean 5v5 or even less. Game balance should be on battlegrounds and huge fights. Never 1v1 or 2v2 encounters. If a player has a huge fiery death spell that explodes another player in 1 shot, who cares? If they happen to one-shot 1 player in a 100v100 battle once every 10 min that means NOTHING in the grand scheme of things. We can’t have interesting PvE content (or even PvP content) if every class is balanced to be 1v1 capable. At that point everyone ends up being the same with tools to combat everyone else.
I think you missed the point. WOW is only balanced by constantly tweaking skills, and by everyone having broadly homogenous builds. There is only an illusion of choice in games like WOW as far as available classes and builds are concerned.
Why design an MMO around 1v1 balance, particularly when this 'fairness' is destroyed by ludicrously overpowered equipment. If you want fair PVP play an FPS.
MMO's should be built around battles on a large scale, where the tanks may well be required to protect the mages.
PvP if done right is a beautiful thing. I kind of like the Realm vs Realm types that really don't try to balance each class against each class, but balance the class for realm warfare with others. DaoC was one that was particularly good at that from the beginning, although I would limit the crowd control to individuals.
The problem i see with MMorpgs without the higher purpose of RvR warfare is the end game is weak. You can only do so many High end raids or dungeons before getting bored to death. The industry needs to come out with more interesting end games maybe in the gender of Star Wars Galaxy where they had just about everything you can imagine to do. That game exceled in things to do such as building cities, entertaining, crafting etc. Wish someone would expand on that type of game.
I sort of agree with the op but there is still ways to keep it believable and balanced.
First i don't agree with balance as in dmg for dmg but i beleive in balance as in any class can beat any class if given the skills,tools and mind set to do so.
Using the mage example versus a warrior,why can't that warrior block that magic spell with a shield?Further more to cast that powerful magic spell should take time,MUCH longer than the warrior swinging his sword.Then you should have interupts,so although you might eventually unleash a powerful spell on me,i have the chance to block it and or interupt you.
I think this is where character customization can come in,and in depth stat design.You could build your player to have a higher % to block with a shield or a higher % to interupt with say your sword.Then you could have varied dmg moderations,example if i swing my sword for pure dmg,it has a VERY low chance to parry or interupt,but if i swing it for the purpose of interupting your powerful spell then it should carry a very low damage but also a very high interupt %.
You can take it even further in depth...
What if that warrior chooses to not use a shield to block?That's fine,then he should have a higher agility and avoidance for not having that extra weighed down shield.Perhaps that typoe of warrior could further raise his avoidance and parry skills ,instead of going for an all out attack mode.At the same time that warrior could still build for an all out dmg type warrior if that player so chooses using perhaps a duo weild mode.
This is all called in depth game design,none of these games have it,they are all VERY lazy designs that offer nothing to good pvp.This is why i have little repsect for pvp in mmorpg's,even the maps have no design to offer good pvp.
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Player classes are balanced/homogenized to Damage Per Second. WOW has perfected this balance, and the clones follow.
There are other-than-DPS ways to balance player classes but game developers have proven to be extremely unimagineative.
A good RPG would even let a player ascend into demi-god or god status, again that could be balanced if you think about it, but that would require an imagineative game developer which doesn't exist in this universe. What role did gods and demi-gods serve in D and D fiction? No, they didn't spend their time grinding and ganking lowbies.
frost mage FTW; QQ more
a game where you only do roleplay doesnt sounds funny, PvP at least gives you something to do when your waiting for a dungeon or the like.....also, PvP doesnt mean only 1v1 combat, problem is that now games are oriented in "single player team battlegrounds"........so you start a little group but you only focus on killing one by one..........PvP should be like PvE, where you focus on killing the most number of players so you help to achieve victory, at the same time, not one by one.....
also you cant blame the lack of organization, that's a thing that should be done, there should be group tactics for PvP, not just "get the best gear and fuck them all".....