Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

So, was it a lie that pre-order stocks are 'limited', or is the demand lower then expected?

1234579

Comments

  • winterwinter El Paso, TXPosts: 2,276Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by fledur

    Originally posted by GMan3    "As for your problem with pre-orders fledur, you seems to think that digital pre-orders can not be limited.  The limit is nothing more than what the company plans on selling..."

    Of course they CAN be limited. But they are obviously NOT limited. Its foolish to think that an EA company would say no to peoples money. Wake up, they are not in a crusade for customer service excelence in detriment of $. Believe me, digital pre-orders are not limited (of course not talking about boxes or collection edition). You can come back to me later when the head starts begins and see if at any point they stopped selling digital pre-orders.

    There isnt a planned number on pre-orders. Like "we are going to have X servers on launch, so the max number of player is Y" thing. No. We are talking about EA here, get your feet back on earth. If more servers are needed to acomodate more players, they will make it happen.

    About pre-order numbers, it is clear to me that no major selling milestone has been accomplished yet. They are not bragging, they are not using that number on any marketing stuff so far. So, yea, common sense says no major pre-order milestone.

    setting up servers/hardware takes time and we don't mean just overnight time. if 500k players decide to go out and buy a copy of the game 12/19 and play and EA/bioware hasn't planned on it there could be trouble. Thus limiting supplies especially when it comes to the actual release date when the Company can't just instantly order/recieve/and throw up serveral dozen servers is understandable. Argueing that EA/Bioware should already have several dozen servers set up and ready to run that they don't expect to need but might, is just poor business practice considering the cost of hardware and tech. (Kinda like argueing you should go out and buy 2 more cars. Sure you don't need them but you might if the first one breaks down and the second proves to be defective.)

      Several things are clear to you, because you choose to believe them to be true not because you have any real facts. (numbers etc) and in fact more that you refuse to see or acknowledge anything that doesn't fit your view/arguement instead implying that EA can just buy/recieve/and set up unlimited numbers of servers on the spot

  • goldenkeygoldenkey chesterfield, VAPosts: 98Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by winter

    Originally posted by fledur


    Originally posted by GMan3    "As for your problem with pre-orders fledur, you seems to think that digital pre-orders can not be limited.  The limit is nothing more than what the company plans on selling..."

    Of course they CAN be limited. But they are obviously NOT limited. Its foolish to think that an EA company would say no to peoples money. Wake up, they are not in a crusade for customer service excelence in detriment of $. Believe me, digital pre-orders are not limited (of course not talking about boxes or collection edition). You can come back to me later when the head starts begins and see if at any point they stopped selling digital pre-orders.

    There isnt a planned number on pre-orders. Like "we are going to have X servers on launch, so the max number of player is Y" thing. No. We are talking about EA here, get your feet back on earth. If more servers are needed to acomodate more players, they will make it happen.

    About pre-order numbers, it is clear to me that no major selling milestone has been accomplished yet. They are not bragging, they are not using that number on any marketing stuff so far. So, yea, common sense says no major pre-order milestone.

    setting up servers/hardware takes time and we don't mean just overnight time. if 500k players decide to go out and buy a copy of the game 12/19 and play and EA/bioware hasn't planned on it there could be trouble. Thus limiting supplies especially when it comes to the actual release date when the Company can't just instantly order/recieve/and throw up serveral dozen servers is understandable. Argueing that EA/Bioware should already have several dozen servers set up and ready to run that they don't expect to need but might, is just poor business practice considering the cost of hardware and tech. (Kinda like argueing you should go out and buy 2 more cars. Sure you don't need them but you might if the first one breaks down and the second proves to be defective.)

      Several things are clear to you, because you choose to believe them to be true not because you have any real facts. (numbers etc) and in fact more that you refuse to see or acknowledge anything that doesn't fit your view/arguement instead implying that EA can just buy/recieve/and set up unlimited numbers of servers on the spot




    Winter you do have a very good grasp of the business realties of a subscription based MMO. One area where countless games have failed is greed as in taking on more than they can handle. For this reason I would bet once we get to within a few weeks of early release the game will sell out. This will be for the reasons you have outlined at the end of the day sub based MMO's do not make money on box sales it's on the subs getting people to pay month after month. Limiting sales could help them create more buzz and excitement those on the inside saying what a great game it is on sites just like this one and driving up demand among those that are not able to get in.

  • IsaneIsane EnglandPosts: 2,629Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by vesavius

    It has to be one or the other, right?

    Neither , there is always a limit it just may be a lot highr than you thought.....

    Awww you worried demand is low bless you.....

    ________________________________________________________
    Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel 

  • whilanwhilan Everett, WAPosts: 3,172Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Isane

    Originally posted by vesavius

    It has to be one or the other, right?

    Neither , there is always a limit it just may be a lot highr than you thought.....

    Awww you worried demand is low bless you.....

    If i understand this thread correctly (i could be wrong) these are the two scenarios we are looking at

    Copies avialable while supplies last

    and

    Copies will be available right up to launch

    Neither of these statements conflict each other.

    I'll explain

    This is what we call a whichever comes first scenario

    pre-orders will be available right up to launch assuming we still have pre-order copies to sell.

    If we run out of copies before the release date then copies will no longer be available.

    The available right up to launch is just saying we aren't artifically cutting the time you can order X amount of days before the games release.  So you can (assuming supplies last) order 1 day before the game launches and get the pre-order stuff.

    These two statements don't say anything about how many pre-orders they have nor do they say anything about the demands for said item. They are just saying that the only time limits for pre-ordering are stock/release day, whichever come s first.

    Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.

    Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.

    image

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

     

    Sixteen pages from one false dichotomy.  Not bad at all.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • BlasphimBlasphim San Diego, CAPosts: 349Member Common

    Originally posted by Icewhite

     

    Sixteen pages from one false dichotomy.  Not bad at all.

    You know, I asked in another thread what people would be complaining about, I should have kept my damn mouth shut.

  • FaelsunFaelsun Brandon, MSPosts: 492Member

    I think this is a marketing strategy based on potential failure. This way if instead of 3 million subs they have 3 to 6 hundred thousand subs but only at start up, they can open a few servers and say thats exactly what they expected anyway. Also if the bugs that need ironing out happen to be really bad bugs, then they can contain it and not have massive early game fallout, or if they do have a massive fallout based on bugs they wont worry to much about it since their marketing ploy is to simply say user base is declining because we have refused to open new accounts or servers as of yet. That way they can slow word of mouth negative press, which they have gotten more than enough of already.

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member

    Originally posted by Blasphim

    Originally posted by Icewhite

     

    Sixteen pages from one false dichotomy.  Not bad at all.

    You know, I asked in another thread what people would be complaining about, I should have kept my damn mouth shut.

    I think this thread is EVE's version of 'You are not killing us fast enough!'

    For those who do not know, it is a phrase that gained noteriaty when an alliance went to the forums to say 'you took 3 systems from us but with your superior numbers you should have taken 10!' - hence the phrase.

     

    Which is quite hilarious but w/e.

    In 80 days or so, I'll be online rolling a Fem Shep... sorry.. Female Trooper. :P

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • SlyGamer79SlyGamer79 siesta key, FLPosts: 278Member

    Always have a plan B just in case things go down the toilet lol.

    so in my case if this game fails for whatever reason i'll also have GW2 lol.

    and if they both go bad  /quit mmo's all together lol.

    PSN-SlyFox5679
    Xfire-Slyfox5679
    raptr-slygamer1979

    image
  • MetsisMetsis TamperePosts: 66Member

    Boy does this forum have a huge bunch of "drama queens" on it... You make an issue of something like this???

    I'm quite sure that they have a limit to all the pre-orders etc. There is a physical limitation to it. They are planning to make "so and so much copies" for the launch, so they can sell only "server maximum load minus launch copies" of the game as pre-order. But if the product is moving, they can always decide to add more servers to get more money out of a hot product.

    Everything is limited. It's not like their servers have unlimited bandwidth on them and performance power...

    There is no such thing as "unlimited"...

  • BlasphimBlasphim San Diego, CAPosts: 349Member Common

    Originally posted by Metsis

    Boy does this forum have a huge bunch of "drama queens" on it... You make an issue of something like this???

    I'm quite sure that they have a limit to all the pre-orders etc. There is a physical limitation to it. They are planning to make "so and so much copies" for the launch, so they can sell only "server maximum load minus launch copies" of the game as pre-order. But if the product is moving, they can always decide to add more servers to get more money out of a hot product.

    Everything is limited. It's not like their servers have unlimited bandwidth on them and performance power...

    There is no such thing as "unlimited"... POWER!!!!

    Sorry, couldn't help it image

  • AdamantineAdamantine NowherePosts: 3,514Member

    Err of course pre-orders arent limited.

    They will need time to build the infrastructure if they get 50 million players in the first week, though.

    In fact they will need to hire a ***load of people, if its that successful.

  • HyperbeamHyperbeam LondonPosts: 124Member

    Yes it's a lie, clealry noone wanted to preorder the game at all but then the marketing monkey came up with the brilliant idea of putting the word, 'limited', on the preorder page and everyone flocked there. The marketing monkey was awarded with an extra bananna that day, so it was a good day all round.

     

    The games just like WoW but in space and it totally sucks and were all glad your here to reveal the truth to us simple minded buffons.  So thanks you can go now, your work is done, congratulate yourself with a well earned milkshake!....

     

     

     

     

     

    just in case.../sarcasm off

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,639Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by GMan3

    Originally posted by vesavius


    Originally posted by Sukiyaki


    Originally posted by vesavius


    Originally posted by popinjay

     
     



    Originally posted by vesavius






    Originally posted by popinjay

      
     
     





    Originally posted by vesavius

    It has to be one or the other, right?








    I haven't seen a UFO, but people told me they exist.

       

    They are either lying or mistaken about what they saw, right?





    This makes no sense whatsoever.  

     
     



    Precisely! /clap x 3

     

    UFOs could exist but just because I haven't the vision to see beyond two self-imposed limited variables, the conclusion is faulty. And so is the OP premise that only two answers are possible in this situation, period.

     Thank you for responding so I could tell you that personally.

     Maybe you could suggest other variables and start adding to the discussion in a meaningful sense?

    Because, right now, I am seeing no value to your flawed observations here at all.

     Who said in first place, the only options are "lying" or "low demand"?

    *edited due to excessive trolling*

     Then give us another. 

    Calmly, clearly, and without personal attacks, if you can. 

        Why should he or anyone else for that matter? 

     

    because he has made the point, and now he must back it up.

     

     

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,639Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Originally posted by vesavius



     

    Then give us another. 

    Calmly, clearly, and without personal attacks, if you can.

     

     

     

    To think they'd set a limit on just pre-orders alone is somewhat silly.

     

    Yet this is exactly what they have said is the case.

    They have clearly sought to establish that there is a limited and exhaustible amount of  number of pre-orders and if you want one you must buy it NOW before they run out.

     

     

    Like I say, if it was a company like Aventurine playing the same game the majority here would be raging against them, but with Bioware (actually EA) the rabids defend, rationalise, and justify. To be a 'fan' of a game you must defend EVERY aspect of it right? No weakness in the armour allowed!

    Personally,with this game I have talked about the good and bad of it (I like the companions and think the story areas are excellent for instance) but it seems that with the main that post here no critical discussion will ever be tolerated. Thats a shame, because no game or company is perfect and all aspects should be discussed freely with an open mind.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,977Member Uncommon

    I don't view it as lying per sec, rather its just a standard marketing ploy to  build up artificial demand.  Toy manufacturers have been successfully using this trick around Christmas for many years.

    Watch how challenging it will be to log in the first few weeks, expecting some very long log in queues no matter how hard they try to prepare for the onslaught.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,639Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    I don't view it as lying per sec, rather its just a standard marketing ploy to  build up artificial demand.  Toy manufacturers have been successfully using this trick around Christmas for many years.

    Watch how challenging it will be to log in the first few weeks, expecting some very long log in queues no matter how hard they try to prepare for the onslaught.

     

     

    How is it not a lie? Even 'per sec'? (did you mean 'per se', as in 'in itself'? Not criticising or correcting, just asking for clarity)

    I agree that it's a standard lie that is used, but it is still a lie, and thats all the OP asked.

    A lie being 'standard' dosent make it any truer or more acceptable.

     

     

  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Pittsville, VAPosts: 5,211Member Uncommon

     






    Originally posted by vesavius

    They have clearly sought to establish that there is a limited and exhaustible amount of  number of pre-orders and if you want one you must buy it NOW before they run out.

     



     

    It's marketing speak for "get it while it's hot" and in no way unusual in any industry. Obviously they have only made a limited number of physical boxes and they've also limited the amount of digital downloads. Probably to something absurd like five million combined. It's nothing new. Now if they had limited it to ten thousand people would have a reason to get upset.

    It's not a lie because it's true. If they sell all of them people won't be able to go to the local wally world and buy a copy. Not that they expect hundreds of thousands of people to be lining up at every local retailer at midnight to get one.

    "Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  • MetsisMetsis TamperePosts: 66Member

    The fact is that they are probably quite well aware of the numbers they can handle per server. I think this is where the "guild pre-creation" is a handy tool. You have people form guilds already and then make alliances before the game goes live. Then you distribute the guilds with their allies among the servers and create multiple servers that have solid guilds in place and "guarranteed" players going there, at least at first.

    The problem with the queues have mostly been about everyone flocking to one or few servers, that are "the most populated ones" and no one willing to go to that "pop low rp server"... Thus the number of people they can support is really a moot point since people still play on the server of their choosing. Having people already spread out among several servers because their guilds are there, now that is devious of them.

    Have to give them props for that... I certainly hope that the game goes "pre order live" several weeks in advance so my xmas won't be totally ruined by this. And for the fact that the queues that will be there, will be much shorter then by the time the game goes full on live.

    I just want to play it already. And not some beta that I won't have time to really dig into... And since the client is 27Gb in size is a stupefying amount of downloading to be done by my slow internet connection.

     

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,900Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by vesavius

    Originally posted by Distopia


    Originally posted by vesavius



     

    Then give us another. 

    Calmly, clearly, and without personal attacks, if you can.

     

     

     

    To think they'd set a limit on just pre-orders alone is somewhat silly.

     

    Yet this is exactly what they have said is the case.

    They have clearly sought to establish that there is a limited and exhaustible amount of  number of pre-orders and if you want one you must buy it NOW before they run out.

     

     

    Like I say, if it was a company like Aventurine playing the same game the majority here would be raging against them, but with Bioware (actually EA) the rabids defend, rationalise, and justify. To be a 'fan' of a game you must defend EVERY aspect of it right? No weakness in the armour allowed!

    Personally,with this game I have talked about the good and bad of it (I like the companions and think the story areas are excellent for instance) but it seems that with the main that post here no critical discussion will ever be tolerated. Thats a shame, because no game or company is perfect and all aspects should be discussed freely with an open mind.

    I think you're looking at these responses in the wrong way. You're OP says "it can only be one or the other, right?" well something like that.

    What you're seeing a whole lot of is others speculating on other things their wording could mean. There's only a few making definitive statements here (that actually responded to your op) and you're one of them.

    Second it's a bit unfair to brush others opinions off as "defending" if your intentions are a fair and respectable discussion. It makes this whole thread seem disingenuous.

    With that said, there are 3 possibilities here I can think of, off the top of my head.

    A: It's all marketing to push sales.

    B: there's an actual limit in place that will take effect when the game launches, (we'll know in december for sure).

    C. They never hit the limit they set...

    With all of these "possibilities" all we can do is speculate on what is true and what isn't.

    Knowing what the average person does about big business, it's not a stretch to feel it may just be "marketing". At the same time a realist can see with a product like this, it's very possible they may set a sales limit at some point and stagger users in as "space" becomes available.

    Why would that be? In many cases companies have just opened the flood gate and left it to fate. We've all seen the results of that.

    Also a lot of early starts begin on a date, and everyone (who qualifies) is left to rush in on that date, that definitely isn't the case with TOR. As they are taking  an approach that will stagger users into early start, they've said as much, they've also reminded those who have preordered, more than once, how they will be handling that part of launch.

    They've also limited the regions the game will launch in, and have faced pretty hefty critique for doing so.

    All fo that considered I don't think it's a stretch to say it may be true to an extent that they will be limiting launch day/week sales.

    IMO it's too early to say with certainty any of the above possibilities are true.

     

     

     

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • MyGaronaMyGarona Columbia, MOPosts: 139Member
    Please, someone release a new game so we call stop wasting our time with these worthless threads!!
  • GMan3GMan3 Ewa Beach, HIPosts: 2,127Member

    Originally posted by vesavius

    Originally posted by GMan3

    Originally posted by vesavius

    Originally posted by Sukiyaki

    Originally posted by vesavius

    Originally posted by popinjay

     
     



    Originally posted by vesavius





    Originally posted by popinjay

      
     
     





    Originally posted by vesavius

    It has to be one or the other, right?








    I haven't seen a UFO, but people told me they exist.

       

    They are either lying or mistaken about what they saw, right?




    This makes no sense whatsoever.  

     
     



    Precisely! /clap x 3

     

    UFOs could exist but just because I haven't the vision to see beyond two self-imposed limited variables, the conclusion is faulty. And so is the OP premise that only two answers are possible in this situation, period.

     Thank you for responding so I could tell you that personally.

     Maybe you could suggest other variables and start adding to the discussion in a meaningful sense?

    Because, right now, I am seeing no value to your flawed observations here at all.

     Who said in first place, the only options are "lying" or "low demand"?

    *edited due to excessive trolling*

     Then give us another. 

    Calmly, clearly, and without personal attacks, if you can. 

        Why should he or anyone else for that matter? 

     because he has made the point, and now he must back it up. 

       Now answer the rest of my post vesavius.  Seems you are afraid to answer the main point of it for some reason since you have now ignored it THREE times.  Here it is again to make it easier to remember:

       Why should he or anyone else for that matter? You have obviously taken a dislke to the game and now assume that anything said is either wrong or niave or some such. Your position is the most unreasonable one on this entire thread, but due to your dislike, you are blinded to it.

        Now it's your turn, take a step back and answer honestly, if this was a game that you were looking forward to . . . would you actually be acting in the manner you are or would you be more tempered or even defensive towards "your" game?

        Something tells me you will ignore this question AGAIN since to answer it honestly is to risk admitting being wrong or worse, intentionally being a . . . 

    "If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,639Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by GMan3

    Originally posted by vesavius


    Originally posted by GMan3


    Originally posted by vesavius


    Originally posted by Sukiyaki


    Originally posted by vesavius


    Originally posted by popinjay

     
     



    Originally posted by vesavius






    Originally posted by popinjay

      
     
     





    Originally posted by vesavius

    It has to be one or the other, right?









    I haven't seen a UFO, but people told me they exist.

       

    They are either lying or mistaken about what they saw, right?





    This makes no sense whatsoever.  

     
     



    Precisely! /clap x 3

     

    UFOs could exist but just because I haven't the vision to see beyond two self-imposed limited variables, the conclusion is faulty. And so is the OP premise that only two answers are possible in this situation, period.

     Thank you for responding so I could tell you that personally.

     Maybe you could suggest other variables and start adding to the discussion in a meaningful sense?

    Because, right now, I am seeing no value to your flawed observations here at all.

     Who said in first place, the only options are "lying" or "low demand"?

    *edited due to excessive trolling*

     Then give us another. 

    Calmly, clearly, and without personal attacks, if you can. 

        Why should he or anyone else for that matter? 

     because he has made the point, and now he must back it up. 

       Now answer the rest of my post vesavius. 

     

    Not until this very basic point has been addressed. But your being evasive again ofc.

    If you make or support a point, back it up. Do not throw chaff into the air in the forms of personal observations of the other person's agenda or motives or whatever as a distraction.

    Thats just bad debate.

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick WonderlandPosts: 7,619Member

    Originally posted by vesavius

    Not until this very basic point has been addressed. But your being evasive again ofc.

    If you make or support a point, back it up. Do not throw chaff into the air in the forms of personal observations of the other person's agenda or motives or whatever as a distraction.

    Thats just bad debate.

    Have you actually been reading this thread? Up till this post you've ignored all the posters and posts that mentioned other reasons than your kind of biased opinion that EA/BW must be a shady, untrustworthy company the way they use the word 'limited'. Next to that, you've insulted and flamed other posters who gave other reasons by saying that their motives are untrustworthy since they're fans and that they wouldn't say the same if it was about another company, which is a blatant lie.

     

    When you want to talk 'bad debate', that's exactly the example you've been setting.

    If you're really objective and openminded enough for an honest debate to acknowledge other opinions besides your own heavily negative one regarding EA/BW, I'd be happy to recapitulate the alternative reasons and arguments that other posters already have given to your OP question.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • GMan3GMan3 Ewa Beach, HIPosts: 2,127Member

    Originally posted by vesavius

    Originally posted by GMan3

    Originally posted by vesavius

    Originally posted by GMan3

    Originally posted by vesavius

    Originally posted by Sukiyaki

    Originally posted by vesavius

    Originally posted by popinjay

     
     



    Originally posted by vesavius





    Originally posted by popinjay

      
     
     





    Originally posted by vesavius

    It has to be one or the other, right?








    I haven't seen a UFO, but people told me they exist.

       

    They are either lying or mistaken about what they saw, right?




    This makes no sense whatsoever.  

     
     



    Precisely! /clap x 3

     

    UFOs could exist but just because I haven't the vision to see beyond two self-imposed limited variables, the conclusion is faulty. And so is the OP premise that only two answers are possible in this situation, period.

     Thank you for responding so I could tell you that personally.

     Maybe you could suggest other variables and start adding to the discussion in a meaningful sense?

    Because, right now, I am seeing no value to your flawed observations here at all.

     Who said in first place, the only options are "lying" or "low demand"?

    *edited due to excessive trolling*

     Then give us another. 

    Calmly, clearly, and without personal attacks, if you can. 

        Why should he or anyone else for that matter? 

     because he has made the point, and now he must back it up. 

       Now answer the rest of my post vesavius. 

     Not until this very basic point has been addressed. But your being evasive again ofc.

    If you make or support a point, back it up. Do not throw chaff into the air in the forms of personal observations of the other person's agenda or motives or whatever as a distraction.

    Thats just bad debate.

        BAD DEBATE?  The question HAS been answered numerous times.

        You are the one that is refusing to even look at any opinion other than your own grossly one sided one.  Many people have put out reasons they feel that EA/BioWare is not in the wrong/lying and you have done nothing but dismiss them because it does not fit the answer you have come to without ANY proof what so ever.

        Then when someone asks you if you would act this way for a game or developer YOU do like, you first ignore the question, then try to deride the questioner instead of giving an honest answer.  If anyone deserves to be treated with contempt here though, it is you for failing to answer a simple question OR provide any PROOF for your ignorant OP and further posts.

    "If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"

Sign In or Register to comment.