Depends on your definition of the word 'noob'- if you mean low level players who are trying to get by and level up, I don't find it much fun. In fact, I tend to leave these players alone, since killing them provides me with no satisfaction or challenge. Unless they have griefed a friend of mine or someone on my faction, I ignore them. Now, if its someone my level that's a different story- if he tries and can't take me, after several attempts, that's what I call noob ganking and its fun because I'm testing my skill against another player who has the tools at his disposal to defeat me but just can't cut it. Now that's fun. It makes me feel like I've got a certain amount of synchronization with, or mastery over my character and it's class.
You know that quote about the triump of evil and good men doing nothing well essentially it is the same in games. If we policed ourselves better in games we would not have this problem. Instead people who can do and other just watch and this drives new players away.
That's what happened in L2.
When Lineage 2 launched, it was extremely open PvP-wise. Higher level players could hang out in newbie areas all day long and camp them... NCSoft didn't care - as long as they weren't being harassed in real-world terms, they were fine. If you reported someone for griefing you, a L2 GM would tell you to make friends and fight back.
That lasted... oh... about 6 months or so, as I recall? Then two things happened, almost simultaneously.
1) NCSoft saw the fallout of having such a "hands-off" approach. New players - even those interested in PvP - got fed up and left the game. Why? Because even if you're a fan of PvP, there's not a whole lot you can do to progress when there are constantly people in the newbie areas killing all the new players off repeatedly. They can't make progress, they can't get quests completed, they can't level up... Oh, and you used to drop gear on death, even from mobs, back in the early days of L2... so they were abusing that as well.
After a time, players start to ask themselves "why am I spending money on a game where I'm unable to so much as step outside the starting city without being ganked repeatedly?". And so they left.
The result was that NC reigned in the game a bit, made the rules more strict and increased the NPC patrols in those areas. It slowed the gankers down a bit.. not that much though.
2) The more effective thing that happened was that higher level players - those who truly value open PvP, but see lowbie ganking for what it is, cowardly schoolyard bully behavior - saw that the game population was getting top-heavy because newer players weren't sticking around. They also saw the number of complaints from newer players unable to get into the game 'cause some idiots were always ganking them, keeping them from doing anything.
So the players took it into their own hands, by first asking the gankers/griefers to give the new players a break so they could get into the game, get more people playing and make the game more active... The gankers/griefers ignored them, of course. "What? Stop stroking my own ego by killing players far weaker than me and gloating about how hardcore I am for it? Pfft! Yeah right!".
So the players took the next step and started asking new players to let them know when/where the ganking was occurring... and started going out to those newbie areas themselves to deal with it. That actually did a lot more to help the game than anything NC did. It didn't stop the gankers, but it really did slow them down. The players taking matters into their own hands and dealing with it. That is a great example of what can happen when a strong MMO community develops.
Was always great watching the self-described "hardcore PvP'ers" try to run away as soon as an actual challenge shows up. It was like cockroaches scrambling from sunlight. They were *such* hardcore PvP'ers that they had force-logging down to a science.
There's no more beautiful irony than seeing a persistent newbie ganker crying and whining about being PK'd by a higher level player. Amazing how quickly the "hardcore PvP'er" facade falls away and they're reduced to crybabies as soon as they find themselves on the losing end. Was always a lot of fun using their own "logic" against them, like "Suck it up carebear. It's a PvP MMO." Oh, would they rage.
One time I was going to Dark Elven Village for a quest and happened to notice a red name running around.. a lowbie ganker, preying on new players. Based on their gear/skills they were at least a D-grader (level 20-40). So.. I dealt with them. Their response was awesome.. They told me to leave, that I was too high level and had no business being there. I was going there for a quest, they were there killing new players. More beautiful irony.
So, even though I know they're a really bad element in PvP MMOs because of the damage they can potentiall do to the population if unchecked... I still have a ball laughing at them, knowing that all their confidence and "hardcore" proclamations depend on one thing: That they will only engage far weaker players that they know they can beat, and will whine like the worst of them when given a dose of their own medicine.
Typical schoolyard bullies. Nothing more.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
i am a huge fan of open world pvp. but i also have some sense of honor, even in games.
if i am going to kill you, you will be facing me and armed
translated to MMO talk, if i am going to kill you, you can be sure that you will have the chance of killing me.
if you are defenseless i will on the other hand help you or ignore you
(unless you attack me first, in which case ill kill you and just to humiliate you even more, i wont even loot you. just to say you suck so much that taking your stuff isnt worth my time sometimes ill drop 1 unit of currency like giving 1 cent as tip to a waitress)
other than that my fun in pvp is to actually participate in large warfare, guild wars/ alliance wars, territory control with as many players as possible. (not battlegrounds or reserved pvp zones, it needs to be able to happen whenever, whereever)
and also to go gank those bullies killing newbies... their tears are oh so sweater
If all PvPers were like you, UO would never have needed Trammel (well except maybe for the additional housing space).
i am a huge fan of open world pvp. but i also have some sense of honor, even in games.
if i am going to kill you, you will be facing me and armed
translated to MMO talk, if i am going to kill you, you can be sure that you will have the chance of killing me.
if you are defenseless i will on the other hand help you or ignore you
(unless you attack me first, in which case ill kill you and just to humiliate you even more, i wont even loot you. just to say you suck so much that taking your stuff isnt worth my time sometimes ill drop 1 unit of currency like giving 1 cent as tip to a waitress)
other than that my fun in pvp is to actually participate in large warfare, guild wars/ alliance wars, territory control with as many players as possible. (not battlegrounds or reserved pvp zones, it needs to be able to happen whenever, whereever)
and also to go gank those bullies killing newbies... their tears are oh so sweater
If all PvPers were like you, UO would never have needed Trammel (well except maybe for the additional housing space).
so technically its the "hardcore PVP carebear" that is to blame for the lack of inovative pvp and shit games that are being released in the past 10 years?
I am convinced it is done because just like in our actual society most people are self absorbed cretins incapable of comprehending anything beyond their own short term gratification. They can't see that by their actions they are killing the games they play. Also the term "hardcore" should never be appled to a video game. You want to really be hardcore become a ranger, a navy seal ,swat officer or anything else along that line. Calling yourself hardcore becuase of a video game is rather sad.
The only thing I can see making it fun is a low level of self-esteem.
This.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
I am convinced it is done because just like in our actual society most people are self absorbed cretins incapable of comprehending anything beyond their own short term gratification. They can't see that by their actions they are killing the games they play. Also the term "hardcore" should never be appled to a video game. You want to really be hardcore become a ranger, a navy seal ,swat officer or anything else along that line. Calling yourself hardcore becuase of a video game is rather sad.
I think anyone with any kind of intelligence uses words like 'hardcore' within the context of the genre they are discussing. Much like when people moan about grinds in mmos being 'like a job'. I don't really see the issue with that.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Originally posted by Starpower I don't really look at levels when I fight. I just see ENEMY
Indeed, but that depends on the context.. In many games there are clear "newbie zones", such as in DF with the little goblies around the starter towns, and attacking them is just llama behavior.
Whereas you might meet some random enemy in the middle of no where and then of course, game's on.
There's no more beautiful irony than seeing a persistent newbie ganker crying and whining about being PK'd by a higher level player. Amazing how quickly the "hardcore PvP'er" facade falls away and they're reduced to crybabies as soon as they find themselves on the losing end. Was always a lot of fun using their own "logic" against them, like "Suck it up carebear. It's a PvP MMO." Oh, would they rage.
One time I was going to Dark Elven Village for a quest and happened to notice a red name running around.. a lowbie ganker, preying on new players. Based on their gear/skills they were at least a D-grader (level 20-40). So.. I dealt with them. Their response was awesome.. They told me to leave, that I was too high level and had no business being there. I was going there for a quest, they were there killing new players. More beautiful irony.
So, even though I know they're a really bad element in PvP MMOs because of the damage they can potentiall do to the population if unchecked... I still have a ball laughing at them, knowing that all their confidence and "hardcore" proclamations depend on one thing: That they will only engage far weaker players that they know they can beat, and will whine like the worst of them when given a dose of their own medicine.
Typical schoolyard bullies. Nothing more.
QFT...it's always entertaining to see gankers RAGE when they get ganked! Priceless...
As for me, if I'm strolling through a noob zone exploring, I'll leave the newblets alone...unless they engage me. If they so much as do anything other than /wave at me, I won't hesitate to plant them in the ground....then I go on my way. I don't camp them, heck I usually won't camp someone near my level that I've defeated unless they are overly annoying.
The true newb gankers are noting but cowards hiding behind the anonymity of the internet. I'd wager most are socially maladjusted kids with parents who don't give two s**ts about them. I mean, why interact with your kids when you can just plop them down in front of the magic electronic babysitter and ignore them all day?
But taking a group of players and flanking a position with magic and arrows flying while they scramble into the shields and blades of the melee; that's priceless.
It's worth every complaint a care bear cares to spill.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
But taking a group of players and flanking a position with magic and arrows flying while they scramble into the shields and blades of the melee; that's priceless.
It's worth every complaint a care bear cares to spill.
What's truly priceless, is when the so called "hard core PvPers" whine and complain that no one wants to play with them after they've driven away all of the "carebears", aka the vast majority of gamers.
In my mind, this is one of the reasons that cross server PUGs were the worst idea of all time. Server repuatation means nothing anymore.
One of my favortite periods in history was WWI particularly because of the stories of flying aces. It was the last age of chivilrous combat. It was not unknown for a flight to come over enemy territory, with full risk of doing so (no white flags), to drop a wreath on the airfield of a fallen but RESPECTED opponent.
I know what you're thinking. You silly boy, Scrog, you actually used the word RESPECT in this day an age. You are a silly old man!
Sure, the age of chivalry is dead in modern warfare. As well as in just about all other walks of life.
Oh, and to those who say it's just a game... well, we use games and sports to teach sportsmanlike conduct, team play and other values to help our children through life. How we relax says much about us as a culture. I mean, if you have no respect in games, then I'd say it's likely that you also have no respect for others in anything that you do. It's a character thing.
It's not illegal to be a complete effiing jerk! So why not be one then, right?
But taking a group of players and flanking a position with magic and arrows flying while they scramble into the shields and blades of the melee; that's priceless.
It's worth every complaint a care bear cares to spill.
What's truly priceless, is when the so called "hard core PvPers" whine and complain that no one wants to play with them after they've driven away all of the "carebears", aka the vast majority of gamers.
You would kind of have to go out of your way to find that kind of thing happening in fairness and it would certainly be being done by the minority (like the task of the repeat ganking of newbs is done by). Most players I would venture, in games like Darkfall actually bemoan the lack of 'newbs' due to the inane grind involved and want it to take less time for newer players to reach a level of competitive parity.
There is certainly more crying done about ffa pvp and ganking by those who have never actually played a game with said rulesets and that is indeed priceless.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I have two nub killing stories to recount. Both are from WoW, so if you're not a fan of WoW, don't read.
My friend was in the troll starter zone with the quest to kill the pigs. He finds a pig, attacks it and BAM...he's dead. WTF? He respawns, finds a pig and same thing happens again. It takes him a moment to realize that the pig is a level 23 and it's flagged for PvP. It was an alliance player hiding near the rocks waiting for his pig to get attacked, and then killing the horde players. My friend hops on his level 80 rogue and proceeds to kill the guy a few times until he ran over the mountains towards Ratchet to get away.
I was derpin' around near Crossroads on my hunter at level 70 (when that was the max level) with my friend who ended up being known as 'The Defender of Crossroads' because he spent so much time defending it. Anyway, a level 35 dwarf hunter runs up and dances around. I wave at him and so on, not really thinking about it. My friend wants to gank him and is being purposely rude, etc. Thinking it would be kind of funny, I drop a snake trap and run a deer across it. The snakes kill the deer, then they attack the dwarf. The snakes in the trap back then would attack anything, and could get people flagged for PvP. Anyway, the little dwarf guy dies. I really did not think he would die. Needless to say, he respawned and ran off, thinking I was going to camp him. I tried to following him miming "Wait" with the lame emotes. Finally I logged out and created an Alliance character and apologized for inadvertently killing him.
Finally, again derpin' around near Crossroads, back when I was level 49 (Horde) I agreed to duel a level 19 hunter who had been dueling a level 19 Alliance rogue. I removed my gear including weapons and put my pet away and then proceeded to punch the level 19 player nearly to death. I was actually a little worried that I would lose...I was pretty low on health. After the duel I'm just kind of turning around, not really paying attention to anything and the level 19 rogue sneaks up and back stabs me from behind, killing me. He tried to sprint away, but several other players were there and they promptly killed him. He still got the kill though.
Those are all the lowbie killing stories I have.
I had fun for most of that, but I never really went after any low level players...there just didn't seem to be much point in WoW or most other games. You don't accomplish anything, you don't teach the new players anything...it just seems really pointless.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
But taking a group of players and flanking a position with magic and arrows flying while they scramble into the shields and blades of the melee; that's priceless.
It's worth every complaint a care bear cares to spill.
What's truly priceless, is when the so called "hard core PvPers" whine and complain that no one wants to play with them after they've driven away all of the "carebears", aka the vast majority of gamers.
You would kind of have to go out of your way to find that kind of thing happening in fairness and it would certainly be being done by the minority (like the task of the repeat ganking of newbs is done by). Most players I would venture, in games like Darkfall actually bemoan the lack of 'newbs' due to the inane grind involved and want it to take less time for newer players to reach a level of competitive parity.
There is certainly more crying done about ffa pvp and ganking by those who have never actually played a game with said rulesets and that is indeed priceless.
It's happening on a wide scale, it's just not so noticeable these days.
Back during Ultima Online, it was very noticeable. Prior to the addition of Trammel (non-PvP lands), the subscriberbase started to shrink, quickly. The majority of those quitting cited that they were fed up with being PKd all the time when they just wanted to go about their business in the game. Which was why Trammel was added, and it was by far a hit. The vast majority of the player base, literally in less than a day, shifted from the old FFA PvP lands, to the non-PvP lands the day they were released.
The only reason why it was like this back then was that there were no other options in MMOs. Either you played UO and put up with FFA PvP, or you didn't play an MMO. These days, there's plenty of choice, and hell even most PvP ruleset servers are vastly toned down PvP compared to FFA PvP. So the driving away of new players does still happen, but it's mostly a repelling force keeping players from even trying said games, rather than it is direct occurances of people trying those games, getting ganked, then quitting -- though that does still happen.
Just look at how "popular" the FFA PvP MMOs are... not very, and there's a good reason why.
It's happening on a wide scale, it's just not so noticeable these days.
Back during Ultima Online, it was very noticeable. Prior to the addition of Trammel (non-PvP lands), the subscriberbase started to shrink, quickly. The majority of those quitting cited that they were fed up with being PKd all the time when they just wanted to go about their business in the game. Which was why Trammel was added, and it was by far a hit. The vast majority of the player base, literally in less than a day, shifted from the old FFA PvP lands, to the non-PvP lands the day they were released.
The only reason why it was like this back then was that there were no other options in MMOs. Either you played UO and put up with FFA PvP, or you didn't play an MMO. These days, there's plenty of choice, and hell even most PvP ruleset servers are vastly toned down PvP compared to FFA PvP. So the driving away of new players does still happen, but it's mostly a repelling force keeping players from even trying said games, rather than it is direct occurances of people trying those games, getting ganked, then quitting -- though that does still happen.
Just look at how "popular" the FFA PvP MMOs are... not very, and there's a good reason why.
Citing crying from gankers in an event that happened years ago is looking pretty hard for it I would argue.
Yes, there is a good reason why ffa pvp mmos these days are not very 'popular', low quality products with inane grinds and little to no working content.
Sure full on ffa/looting is much less popular than other forms of pvp but if you think ffa pvp is the major issue with a game like Darkfall or Mortal Online then you really need to think again. One would assume that if you had to spend over9000 months to level up in WoW and/or you spent 99% of your time filling in bug reports to a totally inept developer that game would also have zero subs, or would it's lack of popularity be down to it's causal pvp in your mind?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Originally posted by bunnyhopper Originally posted by Ceridith
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by Ceridith
Originally posted by PukeBucket
It's happening on a wide scale, it's just not so noticeable these days. Back during Ultima Online, it was very noticeable. Prior to the addition of Trammel (non-PvP lands), the subscriberbase started to shrink, quickly. The majority of those quitting cited that they were fed up with being PKd all the time when they just wanted to go about their business in the game. Which was why Trammel was added, and it was by far a hit. The vast majority of the player base, literally in less than a day, shifted from the old FFA PvP lands, to the non-PvP lands the day they were released. The only reason why it was like this back then was that there were no other options in MMOs. Either you played UO and put up with FFA PvP, or you didn't play an MMO. These days, there's plenty of choice, and hell even most PvP ruleset servers are vastly toned down PvP compared to FFA PvP. So the driving away of new players does still happen, but it's mostly a repelling force keeping players from even trying said games, rather than it is direct occurances of people trying those games, getting ganked, then quitting -- though that does still happen. Just look at how "popular" the FFA PvP MMOs are... not very, and there's a good reason why. Citing crying from gankers in an event that happened years ago is looking pretty hard for it I would argue.
Yes, there is a good reason why ffa pvp mmos these days are not very 'popular', low quality products with inane grinds and little to no working content.
Sure full on ffa/looting is much less popular than other forms of pvp but if you think ffa pvp is the major issue with a game like Darkfall or Mortal Online then you really need to think again. One would assume that if you had to spend over9000 months to level up in WoW and/or you spent 99% of your time filling in bug reports to a totally inept developer that game would also have zero subs, or would it's lack of popularity be down to it's causal pvp in your mind?
I've got to agree with bunnyhopper here. The problems with DF and MO are not the ffa pvp mechanics. Those games could have a LOT more subs than they do now.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The type of game or server being played on has little relevence to the issue in my mind.
Maintaining a sense of honer does not mean that you can't kill the enemy! So then, it's a matter of style, right?
So, let's say you are playing in a FFA open world faction model and you see a player that is somewhere that he should not be.
What's your goal here? Teach him a lesson?
Great.
Then flex in front of that person if you want lol and say; "you don't belong here. You need another 10 to 15 levels before you have a chance of surviving. You may go. HOWEVER, I make this warning only once. If I see you here again I will kill you swiftly and without dishoner because you have been warned".
If that person is smart, he'll go away. Now he's out of the zone just as if you'd killed him!
I've got to agree with bunnyhopper here. The problems with DF and MO are not the ffa pvp mechanics. Those games could have a LOT more subs than they do now.
Speculation is all well and good, and trying to place blame on DF and MO's low subscriber numbers on bugginess is plausible, it still doesn't change that history has shown trends where FFA PvP is largely avoided like a plague by most gamers.
Honestly, I highly doubt that even were DF and MO flawless with regards to bugs and polish and content that they would be significantly more popular than they currently are. FFA PvP in general is simply just an undesirable game mechanics for most gamers. And before you cite Eve as an example of otherwise, realize that the majority of players in Eve spend most of their time in high sec space to avoid the FFA PvP aspect of the game.
I've got to agree with bunnyhopper here. The problems with DF and MO are not the ffa pvp mechanics. Those games could have a LOT more subs than they do now.
Speculation is all well and good, and trying to place blame on DF and MO's low subscriber numbers on bugginess is plausible, it still doesn't change that history has shown trends where FFA PvP is largely avoided like a plague by most gamers.
Honestly, I highly doubt that even were DF and MO flawless with regards to bugs and polish and content that they would be significantly more popular than they currently are. FFA PvP in general is simply just an undesirable game mechanics for most gamers. And before you cite Eve as an example of otherwise, realize that the majority of players in Eve spend most of their time in high sec space to avoid the FFA PvP aspect of the game.
Nice speculation...
And which quality, non bug ridden ffa mmos have shown how ffa is avoided like the plague? Darkfall, MO, Earthrise, you can't mean any of those as they are a mess. So are you just harking back to UO again? One would "speculate" that the market is ripe for a quality ffa product and whilst it would not gain anywhere near the number of subs a AAA casual game may (no one is arguing that though are they) it would still be popular.
Oh and you don't avoid the ffa aspect in hi sec, you reduce your chances of being killed that is all.
Nevermind, I'll leave you to the crusade.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Originally posted by bunnyhopper Originally posted by Ceridith
Originally posted by lizardbones
...
I've got to agree with bunnyhopper here. The problems with DF and MO are not the ffa pvp mechanics. Those games could have a LOT more subs than they do now.
Speculation is all well and good, and trying to place blame on DF and MO's low subscriber numbers on bugginess is plausible, it still doesn't change that history has shown trends where FFA PvP is largely avoided like a plague by most gamers. Honestly, I highly doubt that even were DF and MO flawless with regards to bugs and polish and content that they would be significantly more popular than they currently are. FFA PvP in general is simply just an undesirable game mechanics for most gamers. And before you cite Eve as an example of otherwise, realize that the majority of players in Eve spend most of their time in high sec space to avoid the FFA PvP aspect of the game. Nice speculation...
And which quality, non bug ridden ffa mmos have shown how ffa is avoided like the plague? Darkfall, MO, Earthrise, you can't mean any of those as they are a mess. So are you just harking back to UO again? One would "speculate" that the market is ripe for a quality ffa product and whilst it would not gain anywhere near the number of subs a AAA casual game may (no one is arguing that though are they) it would still be popular.
Oh and you don't avoid the ffa aspect in hi sec, you reduce your chances of being killed that is all.
Nevermind, I'll leave you to the crusade.
You can add Earthrise to the list of games that would be doing a lot better if they weren't programmed by sadistic monkeys. If Darkfall didn't implement their limitless skill grind they way they did and if Mortal Online actually ran, they would have more players. Yes, that's speculation, but I'm willing to stand behind that speculation and I bet there are a bunch of people who would agree.
It's also true that FFA PvP is not as popular as other types of mmorpg games. However, if Mortal Online ran as well as Call of Duty or Modern Warfare you could market it to that crowd and you'd get people playing the game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Comments
The answer is both easy and simple.
" Him "
MAGA
Gank some nubs and see for yourself...
SO many careabear responses.
no its not fun. They are killed becosue they can provide recon and i tell you over 50% do.
Depends on your definition of the word 'noob'- if you mean low level players who are trying to get by and level up, I don't find it much fun. In fact, I tend to leave these players alone, since killing them provides me with no satisfaction or challenge. Unless they have griefed a friend of mine or someone on my faction, I ignore them. Now, if its someone my level that's a different story- if he tries and can't take me, after several attempts, that's what I call noob ganking and its fun because I'm testing my skill against another player who has the tools at his disposal to defeat me but just can't cut it. Now that's fun. It makes me feel like I've got a certain amount of synchronization with, or mastery over my character and it's class.
That's what happened in L2.
When Lineage 2 launched, it was extremely open PvP-wise. Higher level players could hang out in newbie areas all day long and camp them... NCSoft didn't care - as long as they weren't being harassed in real-world terms, they were fine. If you reported someone for griefing you, a L2 GM would tell you to make friends and fight back.
That lasted... oh... about 6 months or so, as I recall? Then two things happened, almost simultaneously.
1) NCSoft saw the fallout of having such a "hands-off" approach. New players - even those interested in PvP - got fed up and left the game. Why? Because even if you're a fan of PvP, there's not a whole lot you can do to progress when there are constantly people in the newbie areas killing all the new players off repeatedly. They can't make progress, they can't get quests completed, they can't level up... Oh, and you used to drop gear on death, even from mobs, back in the early days of L2... so they were abusing that as well.
After a time, players start to ask themselves "why am I spending money on a game where I'm unable to so much as step outside the starting city without being ganked repeatedly?". And so they left.
The result was that NC reigned in the game a bit, made the rules more strict and increased the NPC patrols in those areas. It slowed the gankers down a bit.. not that much though.
2) The more effective thing that happened was that higher level players - those who truly value open PvP, but see lowbie ganking for what it is, cowardly schoolyard bully behavior - saw that the game population was getting top-heavy because newer players weren't sticking around. They also saw the number of complaints from newer players unable to get into the game 'cause some idiots were always ganking them, keeping them from doing anything.
So the players took it into their own hands, by first asking the gankers/griefers to give the new players a break so they could get into the game, get more people playing and make the game more active... The gankers/griefers ignored them, of course. "What? Stop stroking my own ego by killing players far weaker than me and gloating about how hardcore I am for it? Pfft! Yeah right!".
So the players took the next step and started asking new players to let them know when/where the ganking was occurring... and started going out to those newbie areas themselves to deal with it. That actually did a lot more to help the game than anything NC did. It didn't stop the gankers, but it really did slow them down. The players taking matters into their own hands and dealing with it. That is a great example of what can happen when a strong MMO community develops.
Was always great watching the self-described "hardcore PvP'ers" try to run away as soon as an actual challenge shows up. It was like cockroaches scrambling from sunlight. They were *such* hardcore PvP'ers that they had force-logging down to a science.
There's no more beautiful irony than seeing a persistent newbie ganker crying and whining about being PK'd by a higher level player. Amazing how quickly the "hardcore PvP'er" facade falls away and they're reduced to crybabies as soon as they find themselves on the losing end. Was always a lot of fun using their own "logic" against them, like "Suck it up carebear. It's a PvP MMO." Oh, would they rage.
One time I was going to Dark Elven Village for a quest and happened to notice a red name running around.. a lowbie ganker, preying on new players. Based on their gear/skills they were at least a D-grader (level 20-40). So.. I dealt with them. Their response was awesome.. They told me to leave, that I was too high level and had no business being there. I was going there for a quest, they were there killing new players. More beautiful irony.
So, even though I know they're a really bad element in PvP MMOs because of the damage they can potentiall do to the population if unchecked... I still have a ball laughing at them, knowing that all their confidence and "hardcore" proclamations depend on one thing: That they will only engage far weaker players that they know they can beat, and will whine like the worst of them when given a dose of their own medicine.
Typical schoolyard bullies. Nothing more.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
If all PvPers were like you, UO would never have needed Trammel (well except maybe for the additional housing space).
so technically its the "hardcore PVP carebear" that is to blame for the lack of inovative pvp and shit games that are being released in the past 10 years?
I don't really look at levels when I fight. I just see ENEMY
I am convinced it is done because just like in our actual society most people are self absorbed cretins incapable of comprehending anything beyond their own short term gratification. They can't see that by their actions they are killing the games they play. Also the term "hardcore" should never be appled to a video game. You want to really be hardcore become a ranger, a navy seal ,swat officer or anything else along that line. Calling yourself hardcore becuase of a video game is rather sad.
This.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
karat76
Hard Core Member
I think anyone with any kind of intelligence uses words like 'hardcore' within the context of the genre they are discussing. Much like when people moan about grinds in mmos being 'like a job'. I don't really see the issue with that.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Indeed, but that depends on the context.. In many games there are clear "newbie zones", such as in DF with the little goblies around the starter towns, and attacking them is just llama behavior.
Whereas you might meet some random enemy in the middle of no where and then of course, game's on.
QFT...it's always entertaining to see gankers RAGE when they get ganked! Priceless...
As for me, if I'm strolling through a noob zone exploring, I'll leave the newblets alone...unless they engage me. If they so much as do anything other than /wave at me, I won't hesitate to plant them in the ground....then I go on my way. I don't camp them, heck I usually won't camp someone near my level that I've defeated unless they are overly annoying.
The true newb gankers are noting but cowards hiding behind the anonymity of the internet. I'd wager most are socially maladjusted kids with parents who don't give two s**ts about them. I mean, why interact with your kids when you can just plop them down in front of the magic electronic babysitter and ignore them all day?
Nothing.
But taking a group of players and flanking a position with magic and arrows flying while they scramble into the shields and blades of the melee; that's priceless.
It's worth every complaint a care bear cares to spill.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
What's truly priceless, is when the so called "hard core PvPers" whine and complain that no one wants to play with them after they've driven away all of the "carebears", aka the vast majority of gamers.
In my mind, this is one of the reasons that cross server PUGs were the worst idea of all time. Server repuatation means nothing anymore.
One of my favortite periods in history was WWI particularly because of the stories of flying aces. It was the last age of chivilrous combat. It was not unknown for a flight to come over enemy territory, with full risk of doing so (no white flags), to drop a wreath on the airfield of a fallen but RESPECTED opponent.
I know what you're thinking. You silly boy, Scrog, you actually used the word RESPECT in this day an age. You are a silly old man!
Sure, the age of chivalry is dead in modern warfare. As well as in just about all other walks of life.
Oh, and to those who say it's just a game... well, we use games and sports to teach sportsmanlike conduct, team play and other values to help our children through life. How we relax says much about us as a culture. I mean, if you have no respect in games, then I'd say it's likely that you also have no respect for others in anything that you do. It's a character thing.
It's not illegal to be a complete effiing jerk! So why not be one then, right?
You would kind of have to go out of your way to find that kind of thing happening in fairness and it would certainly be being done by the minority (like the task of the repeat ganking of newbs is done by). Most players I would venture, in games like Darkfall actually bemoan the lack of 'newbs' due to the inane grind involved and want it to take less time for newer players to reach a level of competitive parity.
There is certainly more crying done about ffa pvp and ganking by those who have never actually played a game with said rulesets and that is indeed priceless.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I have two nub killing stories to recount. Both are from WoW, so if you're not a fan of WoW, don't read.
My friend was in the troll starter zone with the quest to kill the pigs. He finds a pig, attacks it and BAM...he's dead. WTF? He respawns, finds a pig and same thing happens again. It takes him a moment to realize that the pig is a level 23 and it's flagged for PvP. It was an alliance player hiding near the rocks waiting for his pig to get attacked, and then killing the horde players. My friend hops on his level 80 rogue and proceeds to kill the guy a few times until he ran over the mountains towards Ratchet to get away.
I was derpin' around near Crossroads on my hunter at level 70 (when that was the max level) with my friend who ended up being known as 'The Defender of Crossroads' because he spent so much time defending it. Anyway, a level 35 dwarf hunter runs up and dances around. I wave at him and so on, not really thinking about it. My friend wants to gank him and is being purposely rude, etc. Thinking it would be kind of funny, I drop a snake trap and run a deer across it. The snakes kill the deer, then they attack the dwarf. The snakes in the trap back then would attack anything, and could get people flagged for PvP. Anyway, the little dwarf guy dies. I really did not think he would die. Needless to say, he respawned and ran off, thinking I was going to camp him. I tried to following him miming "Wait" with the lame emotes. Finally I logged out and created an Alliance character and apologized for inadvertently killing him.
Finally, again derpin' around near Crossroads, back when I was level 49 (Horde) I agreed to duel a level 19 hunter who had been dueling a level 19 Alliance rogue. I removed my gear including weapons and put my pet away and then proceeded to punch the level 19 player nearly to death. I was actually a little worried that I would lose...I was pretty low on health. After the duel I'm just kind of turning around, not really paying attention to anything and the level 19 rogue sneaks up and back stabs me from behind, killing me. He tried to sprint away, but several other players were there and they promptly killed him. He still got the kill though.
Those are all the lowbie killing stories I have.
I had fun for most of that, but I never really went after any low level players...there just didn't seem to be much point in WoW or most other games. You don't accomplish anything, you don't teach the new players anything...it just seems really pointless.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It's happening on a wide scale, it's just not so noticeable these days.
Back during Ultima Online, it was very noticeable. Prior to the addition of Trammel (non-PvP lands), the subscriberbase started to shrink, quickly. The majority of those quitting cited that they were fed up with being PKd all the time when they just wanted to go about their business in the game. Which was why Trammel was added, and it was by far a hit. The vast majority of the player base, literally in less than a day, shifted from the old FFA PvP lands, to the non-PvP lands the day they were released.
The only reason why it was like this back then was that there were no other options in MMOs. Either you played UO and put up with FFA PvP, or you didn't play an MMO. These days, there's plenty of choice, and hell even most PvP ruleset servers are vastly toned down PvP compared to FFA PvP. So the driving away of new players does still happen, but it's mostly a repelling force keeping players from even trying said games, rather than it is direct occurances of people trying those games, getting ganked, then quitting -- though that does still happen.
Just look at how "popular" the FFA PvP MMOs are... not very, and there's a good reason why.
Citing crying from gankers in an event that happened years ago is looking pretty hard for it I would argue.
Yes, there is a good reason why ffa pvp mmos these days are not very 'popular', low quality products with inane grinds and little to no working content.
Sure full on ffa/looting is much less popular than other forms of pvp but if you think ffa pvp is the major issue with a game like Darkfall or Mortal Online then you really need to think again. One would assume that if you had to spend over9000 months to level up in WoW and/or you spent 99% of your time filling in bug reports to a totally inept developer that game would also have zero subs, or would it's lack of popularity be down to it's causal pvp in your mind?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
It's happening on a wide scale, it's just not so noticeable these days.
Back during Ultima Online, it was very noticeable. Prior to the addition of Trammel (non-PvP lands), the subscriberbase started to shrink, quickly. The majority of those quitting cited that they were fed up with being PKd all the time when they just wanted to go about their business in the game. Which was why Trammel was added, and it was by far a hit. The vast majority of the player base, literally in less than a day, shifted from the old FFA PvP lands, to the non-PvP lands the day they were released.
The only reason why it was like this back then was that there were no other options in MMOs. Either you played UO and put up with FFA PvP, or you didn't play an MMO. These days, there's plenty of choice, and hell even most PvP ruleset servers are vastly toned down PvP compared to FFA PvP. So the driving away of new players does still happen, but it's mostly a repelling force keeping players from even trying said games, rather than it is direct occurances of people trying those games, getting ganked, then quitting -- though that does still happen.
Just look at how "popular" the FFA PvP MMOs are... not very, and there's a good reason why.
Citing crying from gankers in an event that happened years ago is looking pretty hard for it I would argue.
Yes, there is a good reason why ffa pvp mmos these days are not very 'popular', low quality products with inane grinds and little to no working content.
Sure full on ffa/looting is much less popular than other forms of pvp but if you think ffa pvp is the major issue with a game like Darkfall or Mortal Online then you really need to think again. One would assume that if you had to spend over9000 months to level up in WoW and/or you spent 99% of your time filling in bug reports to a totally inept developer that game would also have zero subs, or would it's lack of popularity be down to it's causal pvp in your mind?
I've got to agree with bunnyhopper here. The problems with DF and MO are not the ffa pvp mechanics. Those games could have a LOT more subs than they do now.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The type of game or server being played on has little relevence to the issue in my mind.
Maintaining a sense of honer does not mean that you can't kill the enemy! So then, it's a matter of style, right?
So, let's say you are playing in a FFA open world faction model and you see a player that is somewhere that he should not be.
What's your goal here? Teach him a lesson?
Great.
Then flex in front of that person if you want lol and say; "you don't belong here. You need another 10 to 15 levels before you have a chance of surviving. You may go. HOWEVER, I make this warning only once. If I see you here again I will kill you swiftly and without dishoner because you have been warned".
If that person is smart, he'll go away. Now he's out of the zone just as if you'd killed him!
Speculation is all well and good, and trying to place blame on DF and MO's low subscriber numbers on bugginess is plausible, it still doesn't change that history has shown trends where FFA PvP is largely avoided like a plague by most gamers.
Honestly, I highly doubt that even were DF and MO flawless with regards to bugs and polish and content that they would be significantly more popular than they currently are. FFA PvP in general is simply just an undesirable game mechanics for most gamers. And before you cite Eve as an example of otherwise, realize that the majority of players in Eve spend most of their time in high sec space to avoid the FFA PvP aspect of the game.
Nice speculation...
And which quality, non bug ridden ffa mmos have shown how ffa is avoided like the plague? Darkfall, MO, Earthrise, you can't mean any of those as they are a mess. So are you just harking back to UO again? One would "speculate" that the market is ripe for a quality ffa product and whilst it would not gain anywhere near the number of subs a AAA casual game may (no one is arguing that though are they) it would still be popular.
Oh and you don't avoid the ffa aspect in hi sec, you reduce your chances of being killed that is all.
Nevermind, I'll leave you to the crusade.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Speculation is all well and good, and trying to place blame on DF and MO's low subscriber numbers on bugginess is plausible, it still doesn't change that history has shown trends where FFA PvP is largely avoided like a plague by most gamers.
Honestly, I highly doubt that even were DF and MO flawless with regards to bugs and polish and content that they would be significantly more popular than they currently are. FFA PvP in general is simply just an undesirable game mechanics for most gamers. And before you cite Eve as an example of otherwise, realize that the majority of players in Eve spend most of their time in high sec space to avoid the FFA PvP aspect of the game.
Nice speculation...
And which quality, non bug ridden ffa mmos have shown how ffa is avoided like the plague? Darkfall, MO, Earthrise, you can't mean any of those as they are a mess. So are you just harking back to UO again? One would "speculate" that the market is ripe for a quality ffa product and whilst it would not gain anywhere near the number of subs a AAA casual game may (no one is arguing that though are they) it would still be popular.
Oh and you don't avoid the ffa aspect in hi sec, you reduce your chances of being killed that is all.
Nevermind, I'll leave you to the crusade.
You can add Earthrise to the list of games that would be doing a lot better if they weren't programmed by sadistic monkeys. If Darkfall didn't implement their limitless skill grind they way they did and if Mortal Online actually ran, they would have more players. Yes, that's speculation, but I'm willing to stand behind that speculation and I bet there are a bunch of people who would agree.
It's also true that FFA PvP is not as popular as other types of mmorpg games. However, if Mortal Online ran as well as Call of Duty or Modern Warfare you could market it to that crowd and you'd get people playing the game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.