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Leveling Sucks

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Comments

  • katasteelkatasteel springfield, MAPosts: 29Member Uncommon

    I love leveling.

    Without it I don't think I would play.

    Usually when I hit max level I only play for a short time after and then start a new character.

  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Loke666



    That would be more of a tier system really. It would work though, you could even take away the XP totally and use achivements instead.
    Say that you have 8 tiers. To get from 1 to 2 you need 5 achivements and to kill the black knight (or whatever). Once you done it you either automatially gets better as with levels or you get points to improve your character.
    This system would work excellent in a game where each tier represent a technology level. Say that tier 1 is stone age and you have hide armor and flint spears. Next tier would move you to bronze age and give you access to bronze weapons and armor. New technology gets in to all new tiers and people would actually learn a thing or 2 while they play. And crafting would be awesome. :)

    Yeah, but you have to think about how many degrees of seperation there are gonna be.

    Stone age will be ok, since new players pass through, but everyone funnels into whatever is at the end while the middle gets slammed through without a second notice. It really seems like all that matters is the beginning and end.

    ~Which is why the OP's version with only 2 is the best idea, but still has the issues I explained earlier.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  • ZadawnZadawn SPosts: 663Member Uncommon

    it is funny how some of you find end game too repetitive but grinding your way to max level not.

    image
  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 19,169Member Rare

    Originally posted by GTwander
    Yeah, but you have to think about how many degrees of seperation there are gonna be.
    Stone age will be ok, since new players pass through, but everyone funnels into whatever is at the end while the middle gets slammed through without a second notice. It really seems like all that matters is the beginning and end.
    ~Which is why the OP's version with only 2 is the best idea, but still has the issues I explained earlier.

    I always thought the journey is more important then the goal myself, but I might be in a minority there...

    Still, if that is what is the case we might as well take away experience altogether. If it is just a tutorial to the endgame there really is no point.

    I think it might be best for the genre if we split it up to 2 games instead, one with just endgame and the other with a long path for the players who like that. Right now it feels like no one is happy and we all play some kind of compromize.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 19,169Member Rare

    Originally posted by Zadawn

    it is funny how some of you find end game too repetitive but grinding your way to max level not.

    It really depends on the game. Sure, standing in the same area killing mobs is boring, just as running the same 3 raids for 6 months but usually is 90% of the content before endgame so the repetition is less therefor.

    The question is why we spend 90% of our time in 10% of the content, it makes no sense. 

  • SgtFabulousSgtFabulous Sarnia, ONPosts: 42Member

    Agreed, is really the only reason why I'm a little hyped for the secret world. MMO's without leveling is like an even playing field, and there's no "uggh I have 40 more levels to go to 80 till I play even an ounce of end game!". How about jumping into the game, and progressing because you WANT to progress, not because you have to level to the cap to be able to play the actual end game.

     

    TL:DR I believe MMO's without levels are the future, including the hybrid F2P model.

  • grawssgrawss None, CAPosts: 419Member



    Originally posted by GTwander Stuff
    What you're requiring of me is to create an enormous thousand page list of every possible problem that could crop up, and flesh out the entire system to such an extent that it could work in any MMO, regardless of IP, setting, atmosphere, or target audience. Sorry, but I'm just not up to the task.
     
    Let's have a hypothetical situation to get my point across even further. Let's say you posted an idea which describes World of Warcraft's leveling system incredibly well, and suggested that it could be incorporated into a game. Let's also say WoW doesn't exist, and you didn't describe every portion of the game. If I wanted to take after you, this would be my reply:

    "If you're not thinking at least 5 steps ahead of *yourself*, you are dooming your game. Everything you choose to go with in design has natural flaws that you can work with, but do not pair with other ideals. Splitting a game between the lead-up and "real game" means you'll have one of the two be the BETTER half. Regardless of which one it is, the problem will be that people hate the endgame, or dealing with that lead-up. It could all be pristine, and perfection incarnate, but one half of your game will be better than the other - and that's only noticed when there is a drastic shift in how things work in it - and it will happen."

    See what I mean? Your exactly reply, without any changes what-so-ever, can be applied directly to any system with any kind of lead-up, leveling or otherwise. And to top it all off, I even wrote: "This system definitely needs fleshing out" toward the end of my post in an attempt to avoid people nitpicking too much. Yes, there are problems with any and all systems, but most mature people can suspend their skepticism and look at the big picture rather than every little problem. This isn't the place to design an MMO; it is a place to post about MMO concepts. Please keep that in mind.

    Sarcasm is not a crime!

  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Loke666


    Originally posted by GTwander
    Yeah, but you have to think about how many degrees of seperation there are gonna be.
    Stone age will be ok, since new players pass through, but everyone funnels into whatever is at the end while the middle gets slammed through without a second notice. It really seems like all that matters is the beginning and end.
    ~Which is why the OP's version with only 2 is the best idea, but still has the issues I explained earlier.

    I always thought the journey is more important then the goal myself, but I might be in a minority there...

    Still, if that is what is the case we might as well take away experience altogether. If it is just a tutorial to the endgame there really is no point.

    I think it might be best for the genre if we split it up to 2 games instead, one with just endgame and the other with a long path for the players who like that. Right now it feels like no one is happy and we all play some kind of compromize.

    I honestly thought that's what the OP was about, to make it quicker and less painful.

    As for people racing through games... thot yu knu!

    C'mon man, this ain't the first time it's been brought up, and honestly, I'm starting to see the 3-step process to gaming boredom.

     

    Step 1) New Car Smell

    Everyone is happy to just mess with everything and learn the ropes, start slow, have fun with it.

     

    Step 2) Paranoia on the Freeway

    At this point you can taste Vegas about 200 miles away, and you want it so bad that you're willing to drive 120 miles through the desert heat and millions of worgs to get there. You feel like you need to catch up to your friends that are already at the party, and if you all left at the same time (aka launch), then it's a fucking race.

     

    Step 3) Ain't what it is

    You got there, did the party scene for a week straight, but you can only deal with the same raid bosses and douchebag hipsters for so long, now you need a rest... but I hear a new MMO is coming out in Atlantic City now, race ya there!!

     

     

     

    @grawss

    If you can't take constructive criticism, then put a sign up front saying so.

    [fragile novice, please don't tell it like it is]

     

    When you stick to design long enough you learn to accept various patterns of thought, and earn a willingness to second-guess your own work. If you really don't care about design, that's fine too, but don't tell me about my bidness then.

    ~and yes, this is a place where people discuss design. Newer games coming out are taking notes on things we've touched on years ago here, somebody IS reading it.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 19,169Member Rare

    Originally posted by GTwander


    Originally posted by Loke666
    I always thought the journey is more important then the goal myself, but I might be in a minority there...
    Still, if that is what is the case we might as well take away experience altogether. If it is just a tutorial to the endgame there really is no point.
    I think it might be best for the genre if we split it up to 2 games instead, one with just endgame and the other with a long path for the players who like that. Right now it feels like no one is happy and we all play some kind of compromize.

    I honestly thought that's what the OP was about, to make it quicker and less painful.

    As for people racing through games... thot yu knu!

    C'mon man, this ain't the first time it's been brought up, and honestly, I'm starting to see the 3-step process to gaming boredom.

    Step 1) New Car Smell

    Everyone is happy to just mess with everything and learn the ropes, start slow, have fun with it.

    Step 2) Paranoia on the Freeway

    At this point you can taste Vegas about 200 miles away, and you want it so bad that you're willing to drive 120 miles through the desert heat and millions of worgs to get there. You feel like you need to catch up to your friends that are already at the party, and if you all left at the same time (aka launch), then it's a fucking race.

    Step 3) Ain't what it is

    You got there, did the party scene for a week straight, but you can only deal with the same raid bosses and douchebag hipsters for so long, now you need a rest... but I hear a new MMO is coming out in Atlantic City now, race ya there!!

    @grawss

    If you can't take constructive criticism, then put a sign up front saying so.

    [fragile novice, please don't tell it like it is]

    When you stick to design long enough you learn to accept various patterns of thought, and earn a willingness to second-guess your own work. If you really don't care about design, that's fine too, but don't tell me about my bidness then.

    Yeah, that is kinda why I want to split up the genre.  The companies makes it harder and harder for someone to just enjoy the ride.

  • grawssgrawss None, CAPosts: 419Member


    Originally posted by Loke666Still, if that is what is the case we might as well take away experience altogether. If it is just a tutorial to the endgame there really is no point.
    I think it might be best for the genre if we split it up to 2 games instead, one with just endgame and the other with a long path for the players who like that. Right now it feels like no one is happy and we all play some kind of compromize.

    I imagine the system would definitely have more replay value than a tutorial. Between completing it as fast as possible, leveling up different characters, trying PvP over PvE, etc.

    I do like the idea of making a single player game which leads into an MMO, but I feel like being unable to group with buddies, or as GTwander said, having such a huge separation between end game and the initial learning process would make it unpalatable.

    Sarcasm is not a crime!

  • grawssgrawss None, CAPosts: 419Member


    Originally posted by GTwander@grawssIf you can't take constructive criticism, then put a sign up front saying so.[fragile novice, please don't tell it like it is] When you stick to design long enough you learn to accept various patterns of thought, and earn a willingness to second-guess your own work. If you really don't care about design, that's fine too, but don't tell me about my bidness then.~and yes, this is a place where people discuss design. Newer games coming out are taking notes on things we've touched on years ago here, somebody IS reading it.

    I love constructive criticism, but what you're complaining about isn't constructive. If you'd like to poke holes in the actual system, great, but saying, "it wouldn't work because it would be difficult to implement" is the exact same thing as saying, "you'd have to implement it correctly for it to work." The latter is friendly and slightly worthless; the former is just inflammatory and worthless.

    Please, second guess the idea. Bring up all sorts of problems. Just don't take the current MMOs and whine to me that I haven't explained how it can be stuffed into them.

    Sarcasm is not a crime!

  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member Uncommon

    I didn't say "it won't work because it's too hard to implement."

    I said "the design is shooting itself in the foot".

     

    You can go back and actually read where I said that, if you like.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  • grawssgrawss None, CAPosts: 419Member

    Originally posted by GTwander

    I didn't say "it won't work because it's too hard to implement."
    I said "the design is shooting itself in the foot".
     
    You can go back and actually read where I said that, if you like.

    Semantics.

    Let's see, my question: Why is it shooting itself in the foot?

    The answer: Because this reason would be different, this reason would be different, this reason would have to be changed.

    Oh my gosh, so what you're saying is it would be hard to implement?

     

    Edit: Note, I'm not actually angry at you or anything. Just a bit dissapointed that most of these types of topics devolve into nitpicking, followed by arguing. Your signature says game designer, so I imagine your thought process goes more toward the actual specific implementation rather than the concept as a whole. Please note that most people aren't like that; they focus more on how the concept would effect them were they to play the game. As much as I enjoy discussing the implementation of ideas, this isn't the place for it. As you said, that's the developer's job. Other than these few posts, I do enjoy most of yours. :D

    Sarcasm is not a crime!

  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member Uncommon

    I said my piece, if you're going to get toosh-hurt (mods won't let me say butt-hurt, we'll see how long this one lasts...), I'll just let you have at it then. Think whatcha want.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

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