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General: Guild Sores: Crafting Sucks!

2

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  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon

    Isn't crafting supposed to suck? I mean, if it was great gobs of joy to craft then everybody would craft and nobody would buy.  I'm all for multiple types of mind numbing tedium that other people can do.

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • RajCajRajCaj Lafayette, LAPosts: 706Member

    Any non-combat "thing to do" in a MMO takes a special interest. 

     

    However, I think the modern take on crafting hasn't done the profession any favors considering 99% of the crap you craft (and by proxy...all the man hours spent gathering materials for said craft) is completely worthless.  It's nothing more than a means to an end to eventually max out your crafting skill so that you can now make an item that is easily replaceable running a few dungeons.......whoopty freakn' doo.

     

    If you look at crafting in more traditional types of MMORPGs, like Ultima Online & Star Wars Galaxies pre-CU.......it becomes a viable way to reach endgame type wealth.  In these games, gear is often times lost on dead bodies or eventually wore down in combat.  Gear isn't something you upgrade once every few months....its something your continuously in need of.  As a result.....there is an opprotunity in a player driven market to fill that demand.

     

    Some people enjoy playing a merchant and doing deals with people in order to build wealth.  But in most themepark games where gear is gotten from dungeons and there is little demand for crafted gear.....yea, its nothing more than a time / money sink.

  • SulaaSulaa nPosts: 1,151Member Common

    Well not every player enjoy crafting , same as not every player enjoy raiding or not every player enjoy pvp. That is NORMAL.  There is NO written rule that you should do everything in a game.




     




    As for making crafting better. 




    1. Make crafting MATTER something not beign totally useless.




    2. As for how crafting should be made look at SWG.

     

     

    3. Game need item decay for crafting to matter. Look pre-NGE SWG.

     

     

    For OP. Well if you hate crafting , just do not craft , problem solved. There is plenty of people who do craft if you need anything crafted, you won't have any problem buying it from them.









     




     

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,773Member Uncommon

    Badly designed crafting systems are boring.  Unfortunately, most people haven't tried anything else with crafting, and so they think all crafting systems are boring.

    If you have to craft 300 of one item before you're allowed to even try crafting another, similar item, then that's a sure sign of a badly-designed crafting system.  Or even if it's 10 of one item before you can try the next.

    That, of course, is entirely different from taking 300 tries to figure out what you're doing and get good enough at crafting to be able to craft what you really want, if the game would have let you craft what you really wanted on the first try if only you were better at the game.

  • ThorqemadaThorqemada BerlinPosts: 1,277Member Uncommon

    The implementation of crafting sucks!

    Carfting itself could be a great game element, together with a working economy, that completes an mmo, enhances the virtual world feeling.

    But for real, watching growing bars is as unfun as possible!

    Make it mini games, the range of possible mini games reaches from card games to tactical boardgames to games of skill.

    Get rid of the grind, enhance the management aspect!

    An please no more "BAR GAZING" !!!

     

    "Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"

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  • SilverbranchSilverbranch Warren, MIPosts: 192Member

    Crafting isn't for everyone, just like in real life:  Some people just aren't "brain wired" to make stuff. 

    From a design standpoint a game's crafting dynamic should support:

    1)  Relevancy / Usefulness of items.  There's nothing worse than spending time making stuff that's useless.  As in real life that's a sure way to make sure someone abandons the craft.

    2)  Opportunity for uniqueness or exceptional results.  LOTRO did this, incorporating a chance at a special proc on a crafting attempt which would produce an "exceptional" result.  This helps to break the boredom also, because if you happen to get that proc on an attempt, it's a small "Yeah!" at least.

    3)  Tied to a proficiency / leveling system of some kind.

    4) Requires interaction with Trainers.  In my mind another avenue that, if thought about creatively, might break up boredom.  Special quests / tasks for your Trainer to help you master your craft as you apprentice with your "master".

    5)  Provides for a a means of making money (e.g. useful items others want).  The typical culprits here are consumables used by Raiders and/or enchant items such as Runes that improve gear, not just "gear" itself.

    6)  Tied to a recognition system of some kind.  The most basic is a "Title", which I've seen in other games.  However, if thought about creatively you could do all kinds of stuff here.  Perhaps trigger special recognition or quests from NPCs dynamically based on your crafting level and/or Reputation level with a crafting faction.

    Wherever you go, there you are.

  • DerWotanDerWotan NorrathPosts: 1,012Member

    Well take Rift, WoW, War (they didn't even have crafting) and Hdro in all games it sucked, cause you watched a damn spacebar without any depth.

    Vanguard, Everquest 2 had a very nice crafting system if you were aware pressing the right buttons your stuff became pristine ->better quality and you could sell it for more platinum.

    But nothing beats the depth UO offered in terms of crafting. Crafting is not about "fun" its about creativity doing something despite slaying mobs, just like housing if done right there lots of people loving it.

    We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!

    "Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
    "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."

  • MurlockDanceMurlockDance ParisPosts: 1,223Member

    For games I hate crafting in : DAoC (so mindnumbing though the items are useful), WoW, Rift, and games like them.

    For games I love crafing in : SWG pre-NGE (I didn't play post-NGE so can't comment), ATitD, and EVE.

    For games I feel neutral about : EQ2, VG, and GW1.

    ATitD though is by far the best though it can start out frustrating. Crafting in that game is not just about passing tests and discovering the next technology, but also how to solve problems. At the start, you might be able to make a flax comb, for example, but it tends to break often and it is slow to use, so you will want to unlock the tech to make a bigger, better flax comb that doesn't break and is easier to use. But also, the game is completely reliant on player crafters. Almost everything you see in the game is made by another player. It is also important as a trade element and experimentation is extremely important for certain crafts (cooking, foraging, brewing, etc.).

    I think that ATitD could be looked to for inspiration for better crafting systems, but that depends on whether devs want to center most of the game on combat or if they truly want an evolved crafting element in their game. It seems anymore that games are designed to be centered on combat and quests rather than having a decent economy or crafting system. This is a shame because if people tire of combat, there isn't a heck of a lot left to do.

    I know that if I ever designed a game, crafting would be a big part, mainly to get away from the whole 'drop' thing. I would definitely use ATitD, SWG and table top D&D for inspiration.

    Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

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  • Yellowman26Yellowman26 HalsteadPosts: 23Member

    personally, I love crafting. it is the second reason I play MMOs, beside the social aspect.

  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 8,063Member

    Originally posted by SBFord

    While I find crafting in ANY game no matter how "in depth" it is about as exciting as watching grass grow, I appreciate those who participate since I actively purchase what they make.

    THANK YOU!

    Me too! God, I find crafting soooo terribly boring. It's like work! And the most boring work at a conveyor belt factory. Why people love it, is entirely beyond me.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • ShaunJ1380ShaunJ1380 evansville, INPosts: 77Member

    I hate crafting! I wont do it. Refuse actually. I let the insane people who find it fun do it for me.

    I'm kind of the same way in life. Why aquire skills I'm not interested in when I have the means to pay others to do them.

     


     

  • babyeaterbabyeater pontiac, MIPosts: 25Member

    Earth and beyond had a robust crafting system as well ( hmm also kinda sci fi , mere coincidence?)

     

    pretty much crafting is only worthwhile is someone wants what u craft and is willing to reimburse at least the cost of what it took to make it.

    in WOW it costs 300g to make something that sells for 30g (if it sells at all) not really a robust system.

  • sirachsirach , PAPosts: 53Member Uncommon

     


    WoW. I can't believe I actually agree with most of the replies on something.  Of course someone had to bring up theme parks, can't have an thread one this site without dropping that word. It's about as predictable as a politician dropping the current "buzz word" every time they make a public appearance. 


     


    Anyways. 


     


    Games that have crafting systems in them that I enjoy. 


     


    NONE. 


     


    But not for lack of trying. I have tried, and tried and tried. I've yet to craft anything of value IMHO. Crafting is the biggest time sink ever invented by the MMO God's. The amount of time it takes just trying to figure out all the ingredients needed and keeping my bags and bank organized, it's a nightmare for a type B personality like myself. I'm finally to the point where I feel comfortable saying (explicit) this (explicit), I don't have to do it just because some NPC says I must. It has made my game time more enjoyable. 

  • taus01taus01 MunichPosts: 1,352Member

    Originally posted by Elikal

    Originally posted by SBFord

    While I find crafting in ANY game no matter how "in depth" it is about as exciting as watching grass grow, I appreciate those who participate since I actively purchase what they make.

    THANK YOU!

    Me too! God, I find crafting soooo terribly boring. It's like work! And the most boring work at a conveyor belt factory. Why people love it, is entirely beyond me.

    Thank you!

    Crafters need customers to have fun. I find grinding for drops, equipment and raiding extremely boring. It's like work, and the most boring work, repeating the same thing over and over. Why people love to grind mobs hours on end is entirely beyond me.

    :)

    A good MMO balances the 2 sides and that creates a nice economy that both sides enjoy. There are of cause extremes. WoW for example has the worst crafting system and economy ever, it simply does not work at all. EvE on the other hand is completely driven by crafters, everything is made by the players except the basic starter ships and it creates a very realixtic economic simulation.

    2 sides of the same coin.

    "Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"

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  • taus01taus01 MunichPosts: 1,352Member

    Originally posted by Terranah

    Probably my favorite crafting in an mmo was precu SWG.

     

     For instance, there was the searcing aspect that sometimes I did by myself, but other times was with a friend of mine.  Sometimes I stumbled on good resources, or someone asked me to collect a particular resource for money.  I liked that the resources had different properties, and you could make stuff with optional items and sometimes you got experimental points to make stuff better in different ways.

     ...

    SWG had the best resource system ever created. It was resource PvP, who gets his harvesters down on the exceptional quality resource the fastest! If you can find it in the first place :)

    Some of those resources where unique on the server, they never spawned in that particular quality ever again. There where top resources on every server that where so rare that they fetched insane prices and only got used for very special crafts.

    For me, this was the best crafting system conceived so far. Good times!

     

    "Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"

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  • DiEx80DiEx80 Bolivar, MOPosts: 31Member

    Here is my issue with crafting in most MMOs:

    Whenever I make something, it lacks a personal touch. I'd like to see more to it than just "Made by DiEx-80" or something. In a game like WoW or UO, if I build something great, it looks just like the rest of the "great" stuff out there. It only says my name and that is it. It looks no better than the countless other items out on the servers.

    Now one of the better crafting systems I seen was in Ultima Online. There was different resources and different recipies. However the recipies could use different resources and would gain different properties if you did. So, I could make a sword using iron and it would have a X properties, but if I used a different metal it would have Y properties. Add to that there wasn't resource nodes. You could mine anywhere and everywhere there was rock. There isn't a rock that gave 1 ore per node: You could get 5 or 8 per swing and just go over a few squares to get another 5-8.

    A lot of newer MMOs wrecked crafting with this "Go to a node, get a couple ores, wait for it to respawn" stuff. Also the whole "You can only make this thing with this ore. No substituions." didn't help. Still, I rather enjoy crafting and would like to see some more personalization to it. Also, I'd like to see the return of crafted stuff be a little better than enemy drops.

  • ShadanwolfShadanwolf Posts: 2,114Member Uncommon

    OP

     

     

    I couldn't  disagree with you post more.I have never played a game for any extended periond of time that didn't have GREAT crafting. Thankfully GW2...SWTOR ....Prime.....devs agree with my likes and not yours

  • VaundainVaundain Bay St Louis, MSPosts: 12Member

    Personally, I've hated crafting since EQ I quit over it. Spend HOURS of gameplay and 1000's of platinum to lvl 2 points, very frustrating!
    WOW is too easy and redundant, yawn, granted the payoff was quicker, but not that gratifying!
    I really haven't tested many other mmo's as I've lost interest too quickly or haven't the funds for pay games.

    I do like the idea of making crafting worth the effort though. If you spend so much effort to gather and craft items they should rival anything that can be dropped.

    As opposed to one comment I think a game can be balanced enough for all players. I really think developers should pay more attention to these posts, if they don't I will, maybe just a dream but I'm a firm believer that if you can't get someone to do it right, do it yourself.

    I like the apprenticeships, the sustainable economy and allowing players to 'develop' the world. It connects players in a way many mmo's can't challenge.
  • VidirVidir GothenburgPosts: 944Member Uncommon

    Only game I did like crafting in was Asherons Call and that was not even crafting but tinkering,great fun.Crafting in all other games I have played is just as boring as going to work.

  • DasKraut46DasKraut46 Williamstown, NJPosts: 22Member

    Originally posted by darkedone02

    you see, I don't usually like the standard "sit and wait" when crafting like WoW, Aion, and all other games gathering and production crafting systems, I perfer puzzles and small mini-games like Everquest 2 and Vanguard. I wish they made each and every crafting a bit different, like a hidden-Object game, a Match 3-game and many puzzling elements to work our brain and produce a nice quality item depending on our performance.




     

    Lol, I hated EQ2 crafting.  The "mini-game" just made crafting even more tedious to me.  I guess that's why they have vanilla and chocolate ice cream :).

  • XexvXexv Milton KeynesPosts: 308Member

    EverQuest has alot to answer for in ruining crafting for lots of gamers early on =P

    Even nowadays with developed crafting systems I still have to approach cautiously or else I'll get the shakes/redevelop RSI >_>

  • ZoeMcCloskeyZoeMcCloskey Phoenix, AZPosts: 1,146Member Uncommon

    I like crafting in games that make it deep, complex and interesting.  In games where it is not just tacked on and crafters are a class unto themselves, it can be very fun.

    Sadly these days most games just blob some cruddy WoW type system on there and call it crafting *sigh*  They make it where every single player can be a crafter of the best sort and most end up doing it because they feel they need to "win" at the game and they aren't winning unless the min/max everything there is to min/max.

    Wish they would make more games where crafters have a lot to do and then the few of us who like it can provide to the many who do not.  You know like a real economy *sigh*

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  • WolfhammerWolfhammer KetteringPosts: 694Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by SBFord

    Just a few random thoughts that would make crafting more interesting in MY eyes:

    1. An apprenticeship: You know like it always was and, in some cases, is still today. You have to learn your livelihood from a master craftsman. So crafters could either hook up with a real person who has earned the master craftsman moniker or have NPCs available to accomplish the same thing. The master would gradually ramp up the difficulty of the items to be created WITHOUT having to make, as someone said, 1000 useless pieces of junk in order to grind out the points. Just make it a bit harder to be successful, not impossible, just a BIT harder.

    2. I LOVE the idea of making crafting more dependent on the equipment you have in your shop. Crafters should have to 'build' their own studio with better and better tools with which to make their products. Players might, for instance, win rewards from their apprentice master in the form of new tools or a new bellows or whatever. Or they could go out and collect the resources to build and expand their workshops. This would also be a double boon in that a game's housing system would become more useful than it currently is by letting players add on their studios to their houses. Whole player-owned towns could spring up with their own marketplaces based on what players are crafting and selling.






     

    If you make it, we will come !

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  • garrygarry Birmingham, ALPosts: 263Member

    There are three types of player POV for crafting. 1) I do not like it. 2) I like it. 3) I do not care.

     

    !) I do not like it - These people are IMPORTANT if they say more than just an anti-crafting rant. If a game wants crafting (depending on dev resources and time) then these folks can help you address what might be wrong with the crafting in a game. It helps a dev if they explain what they do not like.

     

    2) I like it - These folks are NEEDED by devs because quite often they give valuable clues as to what a lot of players want to see and do. Many good ideas come from craft friendly players and their input is valuable in development of a crafting system

     

    3) I do not care - The hope of devs is to catch the attention and interest of these players so they have a more positive attitude toward crafting and thus - stay longer in the game.

     

    Finally, what is needed is a major thread with posts by at least the first two categories for ideas in crafting. A MMORPG blogger or employee could post a positive article on what they would like to see in crafting for an mmo to go along with this article from a negative POV.

     

    Crafting in an MMO is actually a complex thing from a resource and player perspective. Needs more detailed ideas and considerations than usually available in a thread and also the known restraints a dev is aware of and which restricts what he can have in game. Programming within the engine framework, art assets, animations, in game economy etc...Of course I have my own ideas and so do a lot of the posters here. SWTOR is trying something different, haven't heard about crafting in either GW2 or TSW yet.

  • daeandordaeandor Houston, TXPosts: 2,996Member

    Originally posted by Terranah

    Probably my favorite crafting in an mmo was precu SWG.

     

    <snip>

     

    I think SWG ruined crafting though when they did away with item decay.  But it was great while it lasted.

    Crafting didnt change much post - CU and actually didn't change post - NGE.  Yeeeesss, I know there were set classes, however the actual crafting did not change.  Only how you could mix and match professions.

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