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General: Story of the Week: Subscriptions Losing to RMT

2

Comments

  • OtakunOtakun Member UncommonPosts: 874

    Originally posted by Aeolron

    People who say that they paid say 50-60 bucks for a mmo then believe they shouldn't have to pay $15 per month because for the sole purpose for owning the boxed game itself should look at , for example, subscribing to Internet services, cell phones , tv ect , it's a service and based on that service can and will be cut off if people don't pay the monthly sub. I can understand that $15 a month might seem alittle pricey for some folks, but for the rest of us who have been playing mmos for alittle over a decade and paying a sub fee, FTP with a item mall just doesn't cut it. When I see FTP I see a cheap product and Also makes me wonder how well their game is doing financially. Just my thoughts.

    Internet and cellphones do mutliple functions and give a lot more entertainment then just 1 MMO.

    Also, any decent F2P makes more money then a P2P. This has been known for quite sometime, just look at Nexon. People will say that Maplestory and Vindictus sucks but they are still running and make a lot more money then any post WoW P2P.  F2P doesn't always mean cheap product, but at least you can try the game for free unlike a P2P MMO where you have to pay 50+ box fee just to play it unless your friend lets you play which is technically against the EULA.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

    If people think it's more expensive to play F2p now, just wait until it beats out the sub model completely. Right now people have other options, if that were to change, prices would sky rocket, as the F2p no longer would have sub models to contend with. WHich IMO means an even bigger push for sales, and need to buy items.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • AeolronAeolron Member Posts: 648
    Internet and phone offer only 1 service either it be phone or Internet. My ISP provides me with Internet nothing more, where as a mmo , PTP is offering a service of playing that game. I don't know what kind of Internet or phone service you have, but mine just provides 1 service each.
  • IsturiIsturi Member Posts: 1,509

    Originally posted by Distopia

    If people think it's more expensive to play F2p now, just wait until it beats out the sub model completely. Right now people have other options, if that were to change, prices would sky rocket, as the F2p no longer woul have sub models to contend with. WHich IMO means an even bigger push for sales, and need to buy items.

    I don't think we will not see the end of Sub games for awhile. With that in mind I only hope that Up coming Sub games like TOR will not only cut a chunk out of the MMO pie but hold on to it for a long time to come.

    image

  • AzothAzoth Member UncommonPosts: 840

    Anyone crying over a 15$ sub for what can easily be a 40hours+ of entertainement per month loose all credibility in my book. Sure the latest p2p game were crap, but they were still worth 15$. What is 15$ to you ?

    I always end up paying a lot more money for f2p game and usually get tired of em faster. What we need is a true gem and constant update. Then the sub would be better accepted.  

  • ElGormoElGormo Member Posts: 1

    Online casinos have been exposed for allowing money laundering through their systems, I do wonder if something similar is going on here with Cash Shops in FTP titles.

    I wish the industry would buck their ideas up, I would happily pay £25-30 a month to pay a game which I can be truly submersed in, but as others hve mentioned the games out there now just don't warrant this level of investment from the playerbase.

    The subscription model is failing because the games being released are simply not worth subscribing to, and the developers know that.

  • DracondisDracondis Member UncommonPosts: 177

    Originally posted by Khrymson

    If more developers would follow what is said in this video from Extra Credits: Microtransactions, I believe it would be more widely accepted as being fair instead of how most perceive it as gouging the consumers for every nickle and dime we have...

    If more game companies followed the advice given by Extra Credits in general, the overall market would be vastly improved.

  • crazynannycrazynanny Member Posts: 173

    The whole freemium MMOs aren't that fine and dandy like many people say. LOTRO is perfect example of game where Turbine double dips(sub + cash shop) most loyal players. So yeah You get worse of two worlds this way.

    Free players just have cash shop and if You are smart it can be okay in longer run. But in short term, after completing free parts(akin to WoW free trial) of the game You have to fork up quite some cash or suffer the grind taken from worst korean MMOs.

    In the end sad reality is the best game experience in LOTRO You'll obtain by paying sub AND using cash shop. Which leads to another problem aka designing content to promote cash shop purchases. And I wish this cash shop had only fluff like WoW one...

    So yeah in theory freemium model is perfect as You either pay as You go(via cash shop) or pay sub and don't care. In reality it's just a way to put cash shop in sub based game. As long as You don't sub it's okay, but when You do, You get the worst deal.

  • UnsungTooUnsungToo Member Posts: 276

    They make enough money either way, I don't care. You either make your game accessible or get fat starving by eating all the wrong foods.

    Godspeed my fellow gamer

  • Games that are actually worth a subscription will get the customers.  I don't think it's long until we have game with a subscription and a real money auction house / currency exchange. 

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916

    I believe that ingame cash shops will become "standard features" in all MMO's. Heck, they will even become part of single-player games (via an online connection). The introduction of DLC-packs is just the start.

    The lure of increased revenue is simply too attractive for any game company to pass up. Subscription-based games have been unable to break through the "$15 per month" glass ceiling. No company wants to be the first to raise their monthly sub, because players will revolt and they would lose subs/players to other competitors still charging the "standard fee".

    Cash shops bypass this artificial barrier nicely. I strongly doubt that the average player keeps a detailed record of their ingame purchases. This means that its quite likely that players will end up spending more in a game over the period of a year than they would have spent on a subscription model, especially as the cash shop purchases are often small amounts spread over a long period of time.

    As time passes, people will become "de-sensitized" to cash shops, because no amount of forum-wailing will make them go away. Once that happens (a year or 2 from now), game companies will become more "creative" in their use of cash shops. Many will go too far, too fast, and will crash and burn, but the overall trend will increase, of that I've no doubt.

    The F2P model may well be cheaper than subscription IF you only ever have 1 character in the game, and resist the temptation to use too many consumables (potions, XP-boosts, etc.) from the shop.

    However, as a serial-altaholic, subscription play offers me the best value for money by far. I generally have 3 to 4 characters in any game I play, and it would cost me a heap of money to run those characters in most F2P games. I also tend to pay my subs in 6 or 12 month blocs, which almost always reduces the per month cost. I've NEVER paid $15 per month to play an MMO.

  • UnlightUnlight Member Posts: 2,540

    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    <snip>

    However, as a serial-altaholic, subscription play offers me the best value for money by far. I generally have 3 to 4 characters in any game I play, and it would cost me a heap of money to run those characters in most F2P games. I also tend to pay my subs in 6 or 12 month blocs, which almost always reduces the per month cost. I've NEVER paid $15 per month to play an MMO.

    You should be ashamed to call yourself a serial altaholic with only three or four characters in your games.  Come back when you find it's necessary to be in the double digits. :P

    There's only really two free-ish games that I'm familiar with, DDO and Guild Wars.  DDO starts you off with 2 slots for completely free accounts, and gives you four if you become a premium member, which only requires buying a point package in the store at any time.  The Premium designation is permanent after that.  But two isn't that far off from three or four, and the cost of those two slots can be obtained pretty easily just from playing.

    GW gives you four for the base game (Prophesies), and another two for each of the additional campaigns (Factions and Nightfall) for a possible total of eight.  Pretty decent, even for altaholics.  Incidentally, I still needed another three.

    So anyway, I'll assume that not all F2P games are as generous.  But that just tells me that most shops aren't ones that I want to use.  If people stop playing games with lousy shops and stick to those that they can at least tolerate, it will change the model for RMT for the entire genre in time.  They are here to stay, but we as gamers should try to control how they are implemented by being selective in the games we choose to play.

    Personally, I'm still open to paying for a subscription for the right game.  But it would have to be something pretty damned stellar.  I no longer believe that the monthly charge is needed to keep a game going.  I'm more convinced than ever that they are only doing it because they can.  And when I decide which games I will play in the future, there is one new factor I'm considering in my decision and that's the payment model.  It was never something I looked at before because they were pretty much all the same, but choice exists now and I intend to exercise my ability make one.  And I doubt I'm the only one who feels that way.

  • stragen001stragen001 Member UncommonPosts: 1,720

    IMO the reason for the fall in subscription revenues is that people are just not willing to pay a subscription for old out of date games, or new incomplete ones. This is why a lot of games have gone F2P with MT.

    Because the games now have a higher population (no barrier to entry(subscription)) there is a higher percentage of people willing to spend a little in the cash shop....since they arent paying a subscription.

    I think a lot of people are playing these F2P games as a filler until SWTOR or GW2 comes out. Once this happens I think the amount people will spend on Microtransactions will dramatically decrease as they will switch to these games, which are P2P and B2P respectively.

     



     

    Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom

  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,726

    There are a lot of very mediocre f2p titles with little content, but lots of grind, coming out of China and Korea.  Obviously a lot of new players are getting into MMO's.  

    I will laugh at anyone trying to tell me a big budget MMO is going to f2p because I want to know who is foolish enough to invest in a title that can't show a revenue stream.  Subscriptions show revenue stream, a f2p game is a fling in the dark.  

    Yes, the f2p titles will probably show more income which should be expected considering there are about 10 times as many of them.  The issue is how are the subscription games with a f2p option lumped in, because I would be willing to bet games like Lotro still make far more subscription revenue than f2p.

  • xxantiheroxxxxantiheroxx Member UncommonPosts: 68

    The Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 model will be the best, IMO. You buy the box and all the content from that is playable in full without ever having to pay another cent. But you can also purchase cosmetic items and such from the shop if you're really invested in the game.

     

    And then, when they add new content, you have the option of paying for that if you want or not. It creates more incentive for the developers to put out content the players actually want, rather than the content they want the players to have. If they put out content nobody asked for or really wants, they don't get paid.

     

    Personally, I think this model is the future of MMOs. The current 15/month subscription model is outdated. There are a lot more casual gamers than there are hardcore gamers, and which model do you think casual players will be more inclined to go with when they know they'll only be playing maybe a couple hours a day if that? They'll go with the one that they can buy once and never have to pay another cent to play the content or have to worry about playing as much as they possibly can to "get their money's worth".

  • dotdotdashdotdotdash Member UncommonPosts: 488

    Some people on this site baffle me in a way I cannot describe. It's a level of ignorance I have not seen in a gaming community before.

    Firstly people need to use their heads here. Many of you are attributing the success of the F2P RMT model to the conversions of games such as LotRo, Champions, DnD etc. The reality is that whilst these games certainly did lend a great deal to the growth of RMT, they are not single handedly responsible for said growth. In the last major analysis RMT was only just lagging behind subs and - given organic growth (minus conversions) - it was widely expected that the RMT market would overtake the subscription market anyway. The conversions may have helped that happen sooner and more decisively, but they weren't required for it to happen.

    Now let's look at the claims of exploitation in the F2P genre. In realty this is a false claim 90% of the time. If we look at the major players in the F2P arena, namely Runes of Magic, Allods Online, LortRo and Age of Conan you will see a commonality of principle which is that items should not act as keys to entry but perks to entry. They may speed up your progression towards the end goal but you are most certainly not prevented from getting to that end goal if you do not have them. Now before you get on your soap box and start lecturing me about how AoC and LotrO charge for content at inflated prices, realise one thing: with a subscription you get access to all areas and all items without having to spend cash however if you stop subscribing you lose most of thos benefits. As an F2P player in AoC or LotRo you are barred from very few items and when you do purchase content it is yours to keep forever. In the long run the F2P player actually spends less cash for more content than the sub player. That's not a random aspersion but fact based on the numbers involved. There are a few MMOs out there that use exploitative models but these are mostly old MMOs that have been around for years. In todays F2P space we're talking about some insanely high quality MMOs coming through the pipe line.

    And just for lolz, and to defy the notion that the F2P model is only used when attempting to save a dying MMO in the west: The Torchlight MMO will be F2P. End of Nations is F2P. LoL and HoN are F2P. Tribes Ascend is F2P. The new Warhammer MOBA is F2P. Guild Wars 2 is B2P. CCP have stated that Dust 514 will be F2P at some point in the future. Blizzard have implied that Titan will be F2P. In fact the F2P model has been so successful at creating a healthy, vibrant and competetive market that more innovation is happening in that arena than is ever likely to happen in the sub arena ever again.

    In short any progress made in the F2P RT market is progress in aid of you - as gamers - as the F2P model has the potential - which is already being realised - to be far more accessible and fair than the sub model ever has or will be. It allows choice far exceeding the sub model, and allows you a spectrum of decisions to make. YOU decide what you want to spend your money on, rather than being told to spend your money regardless of whether the content is good or not.

  • jeremyjodesjeremyjodes Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 679

    lets face it. economy's down the crapper this was going to happen. game company's padding the coffers encase it goes down that crapper.I feel that if a game is dying, let it die. it's natural selection from a gamers standpoint. RMT is life support for that dying game. The game was probably mediocre to start with and the Dev's never intended for it to be a long lasting beloved game like world of Warcraft is was.

    The answer to all of this is, stop feeding these company's more then you would pay for a monthly sub. revolt when they add the item store and start having some balls if you want the future to have more quality games and not just a ton of free games that in the end nickel and dime your ass to death.



    Us Americans need to start organizing on shit like this. so many of you could careless and enjoy playing free until you hit the pay for this feature to continue quest line then your off to the next free to play. we let this be imported from Asia and we need to say fuck no to it or we are totally screwed for any quality games in the future.

     

     

     

    image

  • PukeBucketPukeBucket Member Posts: 867

    Originally posted by jeremyjodes

    lets face it. economy's down the crapper this was going to happen. game company's padding the coffers encase it goes down that crapper.I feel that if a game is dying, let it die. it's natural selection from a gamers standpoint. RMT is life support for that dying game. The game was probably mediocre to start with and the Dev's never intended for it to be a long lasting beloved game like world of Warcraft is was.

    The answer to all of this is, stop feeding these company's more then you would pay for a monthly sub. revolt when they add the item store and start having some balls if you want the future to have more quality games and not just a ton of free games that in the end nickel and dime your ass to death.



    Us Americans need to start organizing on shit like this. so many of you could careless and enjoy playing free until you hit the pay for this feature to continue quest line then your off to the next free to play. we let this be imported from Asia and we need to say fuck no to it or we are totally screwed for any quality games in the future.

     

     

     

    That's how most people do it actually. Most of the f2p community I deal with in LotRO anyway. I've picked up 20 bucks worth of points 3 times over the last year. I'm able to level from 1 to the soon to be cap of 75 without a hitch. There's some portions of the game I'm not able to access; I probaby wouldn't have anyway.

    It's the most sane model and makes the games more accessable to people.

    Monthly fees are like throwing money away.

    I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.

  • shinobi234shinobi234 Member Posts: 437

    Originally posted by xxantiheroxx

    The Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 model will be the best, IMO. You buy the box and all the content from that is playable in full without ever having to pay another cent. But you can also purchase cosmetic items and such from the shop if you're really invested in the game.

     

    And then, when they add new content, you have the option of paying for that if you want or not. It creates more incentive for the developers to put out content the players actually want, rather than the content they want the players to have. If they put out content nobody asked for or really wants, they don't get paid.

     

    Personally, I think this model is the future of MMOs. The current 15/month subscription model is outdated. There are a lot more casual gamers than there are hardcore gamers, and which model do you think casual players will be more inclined to go with when they know they'll only be playing maybe a couple hours a day if that? They'll go with the one that they can buy once and never have to pay another cent to play the content or have to worry about playing as much as they possibly can to "get their money's worth".

    yep i agree but pay to play models and hyprids will always be around no matter what you say. they will always sneak a pay to play method in there saying oh you have to pay to acces this, Before guild wars came out Asia had free to play first. So they copyed off Asia games free to play and made it just like theres I know some games you buy stuff for fluffy and all that. Not every company will will go free to play sure guild wars has good system i know some games have the same system free to play and buy nothing. This is not the only company i seen have this so its not new ^_^. As i said they will always be hyrpid free to play or pay to play i dont mind really nor do i care paying 15 bucks a month its only 15 bucks. my cable bill is 126 and you think i am going to complain about 15 bucks O_O. I also payed 30 bucks a month for 2 accounts on everquest 2 you think i wine and said i dont like it i want free to play. No i dont care really hey the world revolves around money even the rich people dive in it and greed is along way.

    .....

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,908

    Originally posted by Lasterba

    I wonder how much iHS and MMORPG.com got paid to write this "report". It is an instrinsically flawed pile of garbage. Number of subscription games = x. Number of RMT games = x*1000.



    Surprised that RMT makes more money? Not me.

     

    Just part of the social engineering that we have seen take place across the net the past few years in the effort to shape opinion, create the false reality of 'it's inevitable so don't fight it', and normalise the practise.

    I see so many shill pieces across so many 'neutral' gaming sites, all not declaring their relationships and shared interests, however how behind the scenes, with the F2P providers.

    Governments should be taking note of whats gone on in this space over this issue... it's been incredible to watch how the masses have been led by paid opinion formers (both in the guise of forum shills and information sites) into something thats fundamentally bad for them and games in general.

    It's already reached the point where the very users that the system exploits fight to defend it on behalf of the corperations :/

     

     

     

    "That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system, and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it. "

     

  • RinnaRinna Member UncommonPosts: 389

    The only reason the numbers show sub prices are down is because THERE ARE NO NEW SUB GAMES OUT RIGHT NOW.  Check the numbers after SWTOR, Secret World, TERA, Diablo 3 and Wildstar come out and I'm sure you'll see different numbers.  I totally declare and agree these numbers are skewed and the conductor of this survey is an asshat.

    No bitchers.

  • shinobi234shinobi234 Member Posts: 437

    Originally posted by MMOtoGO

    It's hard to say considering there are several games that would have been in the "subscription" category that are now micro-transaction games.  The industry, to a degree, moved this way to give more games a shot at getting played on a more regular basis.  People won't maintain several subs but they will play several games.  

    The subscription model is going away, IMHO.  This trend may be sped up once GW2 releases and people judge this game, which is B2P and has no sub fee.  If a game can prove that quality can be maintained without a sub and that a cash shop doesn't mean Pay to Win, I think the sub model will fade.  

    If some game's cash shops weren't so terrible, I don't think some gamers would mind quite as much.




     

    i kinda disagree with pay to play going away there are still people spending there money on pay to play . And not every one likes guild wars look at everquest 2 or some other games out there that like to spend that 15 bucks a month .. so i dont think its going to fade its just the way it works every one out there money hungry for our wallets ^_^

    .....

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,785



    Originally posted by dotdotdash

    Some people on this site baffle me in a way I cannot describe. It's a level of ignorance I have not seen in a gaming community before.

    Firstly people need to use their heads here. Many of you are attributing the success of the F2P RMT model to the conversions of games such as LotRo, Champions, DnD etc. The reality is that whilst these games certainly did lend a great deal to the growth of RMT, they are not single handedly responsible for said growth. In the last major analysis RMT was only just lagging behind subs and - given organic growth (minus conversions) - it was widely expected that the RMT market would overtake the subscription market anyway. The conversions may have helped that happen sooner and more decisively, but they weren't required for it to happen.

    Now let's look at the claims of exploitation in the F2P genre. In realty this is a false claim 90% of the time. If we look at the major players in the F2P arena, namely Runes of Magic, Allods Online, LortRo and Age of Conan you will see a commonality of principle which is that items should not act as keys to entry but perks to entry. They may speed up your progression towards the end goal but you are most certainly not prevented from getting to that end goal if you do not have them. Now before you get on your soap box and start lecturing me about how AoC and LotrO charge for content at inflated prices, realise one thing: with a subscription you get access to all areas and all items without having to spend cash however if you stop subscribing you lose most of thos benefits. As an F2P player in AoC or LotRo you are barred from very few items and when you do purchase content it is yours to keep forever. In the long run the F2P player actually spends less cash for more content than the sub player. That's not a random aspersion but fact based on the numbers involved. There are a few MMOs out there that use exploitative models but these are mostly old MMOs that have been around for years. In todays F2P space we're talking about some insanely high quality MMOs coming through the pipe line.

    And just for lolz, and to defy the notion that the F2P model is only used when attempting to save a dying MMO in the west: The Torchlight MMO will be F2P. End of Nations is F2P. LoL and HoN are F2P. Tribes Ascend is F2P. The new Warhammer MOBA is F2P. Guild Wars 2 is B2P. CCP have stated that Dust 514 will be F2P at some point in the future. Blizzard have implied that Titan will be F2P. In fact the F2P model has been so successful at creating a healthy, vibrant and competetive market that more innovation is happening in that arena than is ever likely to happen in the sub arena ever again.

    In short any progress made in the F2P RT market is progress in aid of you - as gamers - as the F2P model has the potential - which is already being realised - to be far more accessible and fair than the sub model ever has or will be. It allows choice far exceeding the sub model, and allows you a spectrum of decisions to make. YOU decide what you want to spend your money on, rather than being told to spend your money regardless of whether the content is good or not.






     

    Jeeze, with all those FtP games, you'd think they'd at least double profits from the Subscription models.

    I'd like to point out that they make the comment: "but what’s more interesting to note is that the cash-shop revenue has apparently increased the total revenue of the market.  This means more people are buying things from these item malls, and it’s enough to increase the overall market by nearly half a billion dollars."

    But what's the outcome per game? With so many new entries, I'm guessing that it's dropping considerably.

    And still no reports on how Lotro and DDO are doing since they initially made the shift. They reported vastly increased revenues, which are not profits. No bragging since. And their message boards are very active.

    Once again, it all sounds like a con game, done to get buyers excited and promote the failure, and done by those who are selling the failure.

    Are we really supposed to be this dumb?





    But I'm not surprised that the sub model isn't doing well either. Same ol' same ol' doesn't get anyone excited. This industry is in decline, I have no doubts.

    Once upon a time....

  • KothosesKothoses Member UncommonPosts: 921

    The issue that no one looks at with regards to freet to play conversions is the long term one, while the short term influx of players and cash is a welcome boost to any failing mmo, the long term implications have yet to be seen and are suprisingly down beat.

     

    The removal of progression from ingame methods to cash shop methods does nothing to retain long term players the vast majority of mmo players I think in the west especially would rather have 1 game they really sink into another another they play on the side.

     

    This leaves a niche for free to play MMOs but, the two big white elephants ToR and GW 2 will reshape that landscape.  Why would you pay microtransactions when you can get a fully featured mmo for just the initial cost.  ToR will attract the long term themepark players and GW 2 will attract the mid term players and those who wish for a second mmo.

     

    The biggest hurdle to f2p mmos is not the sub games such as wow and tor but GW 2 which will offer a complete experience at just a relatively small outlay.

    By the end of next year you might just start io see the Turbines and Cryptics of this world reposistioning them selves to compete with games such as diablo, rather than in the traditional mmo market.

  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,726

    "Blizzard have implied that Titan will be F2P"

    Now I find that quote to be incorrect!  Blizzard's subscription service is highly profitable, I just don't see them moving  to a f2p method of revenue.  They have indicated nothing about the game let alone the manner of funding it.   Not to say they won't have a cash shop in game.

     

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