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Will it lose 'staying power' due to lack of endgame?

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  • SykoleisaSykoleisa BirghtonPosts: 41Member

    Originally posted by MMOtoGO

    WoW and RIFT, to a degree, have maintained their relative popularity due to the developer focus on "endgame" i.e., "hardcore progression" in instances with 10+ players.

    Except that the majority of players I've met on RIFT do not actually like the game anymore and are on the edge of quitting, TRION have absolutley ZERO focus on what they need/want to do with the game are making awful change after awful change after awful change, even to things that are completely fine....

     

    whilst I know it's an awful thing to hang all my hope onto 1 game, but i really hope that GW2 changes the MMO community for the better, no need to do boring repetitive grinds at all is there? think about it:

     

    it's like the Dungeons paradox(self-coined term to my knowledge, based on experience in rift):

    Players that like end-game dungeons want to be able to obtain better gear.

    Raiders say that if the players that like dungeons never raid then the dungeons ARE their end-game so there is no need for them to gain raiding equivalent gear. 

    BUT, what do the raiders need the gear for? If the developers stop making raids then that gear is unneccessary aswell as being a boring waste of time right?

    now you're probably thinking: "Well, they could create harder raids so the gear won't be wasted."

    So why can't they do the same thing with dungeons?  being the best geared player when ANYONE has the ability and chance to actually as well geared as you are is pointless and futile because all it means is that you have cleared content, and since clearing content is MUCH MUCH easier now because people post videos and strategies almost as soon as they kill a new boss, it just means that soon thoundsands of other players will be just as well geared as you are....

  • EvilGeekEvilGeek londonPosts: 1,225Member Uncommon

    Thing is there are those who are going to be jumping in to GW2 with little knowledge, expecting a rush to end level with raiding and stat progression achieved by linear questing, early on these players will go 'wait this is very different...' and will be forced to do a little research in order to adjust to 'WTH is going on with the lack of quest givers and all this madness happening around me', they'll either embrace it or they won't. Nothing we can do to make the hard core raider change their mindset, so yes we'll see a fair bit of flack over various forums (as we do with all games) about how this is not the game they expected.

    Look at these forums and see how so many of us have embraced what Anet are building and done so with plenty of joy, I figure we'll see a lot of changed expectations from those who know nothing of the real value and depth of gameplay GW2 should offer, a lot of those changed expectations will be for the better as we have seen here, I suspect it will reflect the microcosm of this forum and veer towards the positive.

    As for staying power and the end game starting at level one: For that to succeed Anet have covered two important points, different content of a changing environment through DE's and different ways of completing that content - kill the fire makers or put out the fires, we are going to be faced with different choices from the word go, both out in the real world and in the personal storyline all of which affects a changing world. Add in a world where players never get in your way, a fun combat system and the ability to access all content at any level and still have meaning- the re-playability for one character is all there and enormous. there'll be titles to chase, crafting to pursue, end game dungeons to complete and of course PvP.

    We know they'll have a significant proportion of their studio dealing with current content while the rest develops future content, that means significant improvements and additions to whats already there as well as brand new content to look forward to. If people are going to utilise their cash shop they really need to keep them playing.

    *sigh* are we there yet ? :)

    image
  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon

    No. This game will lose its "staying power" due to lack of a point (in my opinion only)

  • DJJazzyDJJazzy louisville, COPosts: 2,053Member

    Originally posted by Foomerang

    No. This game will lose its "staying power" due to lack of a point (in my opinion only)

    Couldn't you say that for all video games?

    Or perhaps the point of entertainment is to be...entertained.

  • Fir3lineFir3line LisbonPosts: 767Member

    Originally posted by DJJazzy

    Originally posted by Foomerang

    No. This game will lose its "staying power" due to lack of a point (in my opinion only)

    Couldn't you say that for all video games?

    Or perhaps the point of entertainment is to be...entertained.

    What lacks a point is his post....

    "I am not a robot. I am a unicorn."

  • Nightsong89Nightsong89 Flagstaff, AZPosts: 48Member

    The whole thing with a lack of raiding. Finally, it's about bloody time. I absolutely hated the concept of being stuck on a treadmill always trying to get the next new piece of gear that's just slightly out of reach. It's an old outdated concept from the days of early MMO's when they needed to attract new players and keep them interested so the genre could grow. ArenaNet is throwing out whatever isn't fun in MMO's and for the majority of players raiding and a gear treadmill is anything but fun.

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  • XziledXziled Fort Worth, TXPosts: 41Member

    Originally posted by nightsong89

    The whole thing with a lack of raiding. Finally, it's about bloody time. I absolutely hated the concept of being stuck on a treadmill always trying to get the next new piece of gear that's just slightly out of reach. It's an old outdated concept from the days of early MMO's when they needed to attract new players and keep them interested so the genre could grow. ArenaNet is throwing out whatever isn't fun in MMO's and for the majority of players raiding and a gear treadmill is anything but fun.

     That has to be one of the most assinine states i've read on these forums.

    If you had nothing to obtain.. gear, mounts, achievements or whatever... what would keep you playing. The concept of no end game raiding in an MMO is laughable. Running around all day crafting, doing 5mans or maybe even PvP would get old fast and there would be no longevity to the game.

    Longevity for an MMO is based around a simple set of events..

    Level Up

    Gear Up

    5 Mans to gear up for raiding

    End Game Raiding

     

    MMOs with out end game raiding is like a Relationship without sex.. It gets old fast.

  • DJJazzyDJJazzy louisville, COPosts: 2,053Member

    Originally posted by Xziled

    Originally posted by nightsong89

    The whole thing with a lack of raiding. Finally, it's about bloody time. I absolutely hated the concept of being stuck on a treadmill always trying to get the next new piece of gear that's just slightly out of reach. It's an old outdated concept from the days of early MMO's when they needed to attract new players and keep them interested so the genre could grow. ArenaNet is throwing out whatever isn't fun in MMO's and for the majority of players raiding and a gear treadmill is anything but fun.

     That has to be one of the most assinine states i've read on these forums.

    If you had nothing to obtain.. gear, mounts, achievements or whatever... what would keep you playing. The concept of no end game raiding in an MMO is laughable. Running around all day crafting, doing 5mans or maybe even PvP would get old fast and there would be no longevity to the game.

    Longevity for an MMO is based around a simple set of events..

    Level Up

    Gear Up

    5 Mans to gear up for raiding

    End Game Raiding

     

    MMOs with out end game raiding is like a Relationship without sex.. It gets old fast.

    You must love those carrots. There are more to games than raiding and gear.

  • bazakbazak Warner robins, GAPosts: 283Member

    Originally posted by Xziled

    Originally posted by nightsong89

    The whole thing with a lack of raiding. Finally, it's about bloody time. I absolutely hated the concept of being stuck on a treadmill always trying to get the next new piece of gear that's just slightly out of reach. It's an old outdated concept from the days of early MMO's when they needed to attract new players and keep them interested so the genre could grow. ArenaNet is throwing out whatever isn't fun in MMO's and for the majority of players raiding and a gear treadmill is anything but fun.

     That has to be one of the most assinine states i've read on these forums.

    If you had nothing to obtain.. gear, mounts, achievements or whatever... what would keep you playing. The concept of no end game raiding in an MMO is laughable. Running around all day crafting, doing 5mans or maybe even PvP would get old fast and there would be no longevity to the game.

    Longevity for an MMO is based around a simple set of events..

    Level Up

    Gear Up

    5 Mans to gear up for raiding

    End Game Raiding

     

    MMOs with out end game raiding is like a Relationship without sex.. It gets old fast.

    dude if you really believe that last sentance.... wow thats just sad..

     

    as for the other things you said i have never played a game for those reasons let alone an mmo

     

    i and many others (although everyone doesnt share all of my reasons) play for the story and lore of the world. i play to explore a new world. or just because the game is dam fun even if i cant name exactly why.

     

    what you said doesnt even realy sound like a reason to play to me.

  • crazynannycrazynanny PopowoPosts: 173Member

    Quited Rift cause raid or die end game. Gear driven end game just causes problems - in PvP(gear > skill - this really kills the fun), in PvE(You n00b get better gear, *kick*),  in guilds(dramas "cuz he got that tanking set fist and I'm teh main tank"), at forums(casual vs hardcore player wars) and more...



    I'm thinking that more mature players(that have much deeper pockets than youngsters) are now done with raiding job they experienced in WoW/LOTRO/Rift and want to just enjoy the game and pick what they like to do instead raid or quit choice.



    So yeah I'm really looking forward to no raid driven game and if GW2 delivers that I'll gladly jump in and my money will follow me. I just hope they won't listen to vocal minority with brainsize of peanut that will moan like zombies for purplez and 1337 raidz, as it's granted they will come and whine at forums the moment they hit lvl cap.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,989Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Xziled

    Originally posted by nightsong89

    The whole thing with a lack of raiding. Finally, it's about bloody time. I absolutely hated the concept of being stuck on a treadmill always trying to get the next new piece of gear that's just slightly out of reach. It's an old outdated concept from the days of early MMO's when they needed to attract new players and keep them interested so the genre could grow. ArenaNet is throwing out whatever isn't fun in MMO's and for the majority of players raiding and a gear treadmill is anything but fun.

     That has to be one of the most assinine states i've read on these forums.

    If you had nothing to obtain.. gear, mounts, achievements or whatever... what would keep you playing. The concept of no end game raiding in an MMO is laughable. Running around all day crafting, doing 5mans or maybe even PvP would get old fast and there would be no longevity to the game.

    Longevity for an MMO is based around a simple set of events..

    Level Up

    Gear Up

    5 Mans to gear up for raiding

    End Game Raiding

     

    MMOs with out end game raiding is like a Relationship without sex.. It gets old fast.

    DAOC, no real end game raiding, played 2.75 years, EVE,  no end game raiding at all, played 3.5 years.....

    No, MMORPG's don't require end game raiding to be fun for a long period of time, you've just been brainwashed by the current theme park design.

    For many folks, soon as they get to the "raiding" part of an MMO they're out the door, Rift has seen much of this.

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
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  • XziledXziled Fort Worth, TXPosts: 41Member

    Different play styles is all.

     

    Your a social player(keyboard turner)... You have massive amounts of time to kill. If you arent concerned with end game it tells me you probably the type of player who has never done end game content.

     

    I like so many others who play MMOs play to do it all.. Not just roam aimlessly around the countryside, but to actually defeat every piece of content in the game and have fun doing it.

     

  • jvxmtgjvxmtg San Diego, CAPosts: 371Member

    To me if the game says that I reached the end...the game is over and I stop playing, regardless of the amount of "end game" contents there are.

     

    And since in GW2 I am the one to say when it ends....it's an endless game. It's my story after all. ;)


    Ready for GW2!!!
    image
  • JesseBFoxJesseBFox Tallahassee, FLPosts: 134Member

    Originally posted by Xziled

    Different play styles is all.

     

    Your a social player(keyboard turner)... You have massive amounts of time to kill. If you arent concerned with end game it tells me you probably the type of player who has never done end game content.

     

    I like so many others who play MMOs play to do it all.. Not just roam aimlessly around the countryside, but to actually defeat every piece of content in the game and have fun doing it.

     

    Then you will have no problem in GW2 because when you hit max level there will be so much more content to do, way more than any other "end game" content in any game I know of. And you will be getting relevant rewards for it that you can always use. Bonus!

     

    Oh, but none of it is a "raid". So you will love it by your own definition of someone who needs to complete all game content. Especially if you include trait collecting, titles, and achievements.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,962Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Originally posted by Xziled

     That has to be one of the most assinine states i've read on these forums.

    If you had nothing to obtain.. gear, mounts, achievements or whatever... what would keep you playing. The concept of no end game raiding in an MMO is laughable. Running around all day crafting, doing 5mans or maybe even PvP would get old fast and there would be no longevity to the game.

    Longevity for an MMO is based around a simple set of events..

    Level Up

    Gear Up

    5 Mans to gear up for raiding

    End Game Raiding

    MMOs with out end game raiding is like a Relationship without sex.. It gets old fast.

    DAOC, no real end game raiding, played 2.75 years, EVE,  no end game raiding at all, played 3.5 years.....

    No, MMORPG's don't require end game raiding to be fun for a long period of time, you've just been brainwashed by the current theme park design.

    For many folks, soon as they get to the "raiding" part of an MMO they're out the door, Rift has seen much of this.

    Agreed, MMO endgame gets old fast. I remember when leveling in itself still had some challenge in it...

    But it could be worse, the other type of PvE endgame Wow and similar games offer are dailys....

    Raiding is the least work a dev can make to create most time cunsuming stuff. Don't get me wrong, a raid can be fun but the problem is that it is fun the first time, not the 20th. 

  • JesseBFoxJesseBFox Tallahassee, FLPosts: 134Member

    Originally posted by Xziled

    Different play styles is all.

     

    Your a social player(keyboard turner)... You have massive amounts of time to kill. If you arent concerned with end game it tells me you probably the type of player who has never done end game content.

     

    I like so many others who play MMOs play to do it all.. Not just roam aimlessly around the countryside, but to actually defeat every piece of content in the game and have fun doing it.

     

    btw, I love the "If you disagree with my opinion, you obviously haven't tried it" attitude, coupled with the comment on relationships without sex. Shows that your maturity level and age generally match this site's demographics.

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,064Member Uncommon

    The poll seems to point out that most people are not intoo gear grinding endgames anymore...

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • OberholzerOberholzer Hasbrouck Heights, NJPosts: 498Member
    To me the game looks good in the form it is coming. I don't need end game raiding to have fun though I have done it. I'm excited to not play a gear treadmill. I'm sure some people won't feel this way so I guess it's great we have more than one mmo out there.
  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,962Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Xziled

    Different play styles is all.

    Your a social player(keyboard turner)... You have massive amounts of time to kill. If you arent concerned with end game it tells me you probably the type of player who has never done end game content.

    I like so many others who play MMOs play to do it all.. Not just roam aimlessly around the countryside, but to actually defeat every piece of content in the game and have fun doing it.

    Yeah, if someone is bored of the endgame it must be because they never played it, instead of doing the same friggin endgame for the last 7 years...

    Hello! I want something new, the idea that doing the same raid over and over is a "challenge" is just silly.

    I also like to defeat all challenges in a game, but defeating the exactly same thing over and over stops being challenging pretty fast and turns into another grind.

    Sure, there were grinding in the old MMOs as well (and will be some in GW2 too), in the old games gaining a level became a rather hard work and often challenging but it never was so grindy as the so called modern endgame.

    I played MMOs for 15 years and frankly are not at all happy with the gear focus later games have gotten. About time someone tries something new.

  • bazakbazak Warner robins, GAPosts: 283Member

    Originally posted by Xziled

    Different play styles is all.

     

    Your a social player(keyboard turner)... You have massive amounts of time to kill. If you arent concerned with end game it tells me you probably the type of player who has never done end game content.

     

    I like so many others who play MMOs play to do it all.. Not just roam aimlessly around the countryside, but to actually defeat every piece of content in the game and have fun doing it.

     

    i have played end game (wow was something i played often tried to get into raiding but the gear requirements and all the other boring grinding requirements ) also you assume all any of us who disagreed with you do is wander aimlessly around the countryside... i for one do not (nor do i have massive amounts of time to kill again i have done end game in wow and others and its hideously boring).

     

    i agree with whoever said they tend to stop playing when it says end game or role an alt (altho with gw2 there wont be an endgame so ill just run around doing things that appeal to me like dungeons, DE's and pvp).

     

    and btw what you define as endgame isnt necessarily what end game is the end of the game is where the content tends to drop off. in the end, end game is what you define it to be.

     

    oh btw why do you like to grind for things like gear and achievments? you seem to think there is a reason and a purpose behind these and that any game without them isnt fun? personaly i cant see any reason to want them but thats just me i guess.

     

    (and if you werent talking about my post whoops)

  • UnlightUnlight Ottawa, ONPosts: 2,540Member

    Originally posted by Xziled

    Originally posted by nightsong89

    The whole thing with a lack of raiding. Finally, it's about bloody time. I absolutely hated the concept of being stuck on a treadmill always trying to get the next new piece of gear that's just slightly out of reach. It's an old outdated concept from the days of early MMO's when they needed to attract new players and keep them interested so the genre could grow. ArenaNet is throwing out whatever isn't fun in MMO's and for the majority of players raiding and a gear treadmill is anything but fun.

     That has to be one of the most assinine states i've read on these forums.

    If you had nothing to obtain.. gear, mounts, achievements or whatever... what would keep you playing. The concept of no end game raiding in an MMO is laughable. Running around all day crafting, doing 5mans or maybe even PvP would get old fast and there would be no longevity to the game.

    Longevity for an MMO is based around a simple set of events..

    Level Up

    Gear Up

    5 Mans to gear up for raiding

    End Game Raiding

     

    MMOs with out end game raiding is like a Relationship without sex.. It gets old fast.

    If that's one of the most asinine statements you've read on these forums, you must not be doing a lot of reading. 

    If raids truly are the culmination of gaming enjoyment to you, there are/will be plenty of games that provide you with your eternal fix of vanilla treadmilling.  Knock yourself out.  Thankfully, there is at least one game out there that recognizes why many of us despise that kind of contrived mechanic and has been designed with that in mind. 

    Oh, but you do realize that your strident proclamations don't speak for all of us, don't you?

  • MothanosMothanos ArnhemPosts: 1,860Member Uncommon

    Ah the horror of no raiding contend !

    No carrot on a stick for lemmings to fellow !

    Instead Anet is experimenting with a totaly diffrent and radical change of the mmo genre :)

     

    After playing WoW - Aion - Warhammer - Eve - EQ - and a dozen more mmo's iam hungry for contend like Dynamic Events that blow your head of.

    Seen some of those events and they look AMAZING - AWESOME !

    And i havent even seen any serious PVP Action yet :)

     

    If you want LFG Dungeon tools and shit like that pls stick to wow, Anet aint gonne listen to kids who try to dumb down the game and cry over on forums 24/7 over class balance and stuff like you see on WoW forums.

     

    So far GW1 has one of the best balanced Esports pvp out there, they learned even more over the past years and are creating something very rare, something that might be the best mmo for many many years to come.

     

    The tought of seeing all those whiney crying wow kids in GW2 can make the game painfull in the beginning, but iam confident those will leave fast when blizzard starts to steal 90% of GW2 ideas and call it a new expansion lols :)

     

    Nothing against mature players, but most of us are still traumatized by the playerbase of WoW :P Me included !

  • Nightsong89Nightsong89 Flagstaff, AZPosts: 48Member

    Originally posted by Xziled

    Originally posted by nightsong89

    The whole thing with a lack of raiding. Finally, it's about bloody time. I absolutely hated the concept of being stuck on a treadmill always trying to get the next new piece of gear that's just slightly out of reach. It's an old outdated concept from the days of early MMO's when they needed to attract new players and keep them interested so the genre could grow. ArenaNet is throwing out whatever isn't fun in MMO's and for the majority of players raiding and a gear treadmill is anything but fun.

     That has to be one of the most assinine states i've read on these forums.

    If you had nothing to obtain.. gear, mounts, achievements or whatever... what would keep you playing. The concept of no end game raiding in an MMO is laughable. Running around all day crafting, doing 5mans or maybe even PvP would get old fast and there would be no longevity to the game.

    Longevity for an MMO is based around a simple set of events..

    Level Up

    Gear Up

    5 Mans to gear up for raiding

    End Game Raiding

     

    MMOs with out end game raiding is like a Relationship without sex.. It gets old fast.

    And I feel really bad for you if you think the ony staying power of MMO's is raiding. I fall into the majority of MMO players who dislike raiding (some of us do it but we don't find it fun) and are very happy to see it gone and replaced with stuff that is actual fun that you can make friends off of (World vs World vs World and dynamic events).

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  • observerobserver Houston, TXPosts: 3,005Member Uncommon

    Disclaimer: I dislike raiding very much.  The last time i raided was in LotRO and WoW.  I'm just trying to see the perspective from their point of view.

    Everyone seems to be missing this point about raiding.  It actually builds friendships (and drama) within a guild, or clique of people.  Raiding is the social cohesion akin to a "family".  If these people don't experience content together on a daily basis, they will have no reason to stick together.

    In other words, people want to socialize, and be associated, with many players in events, with a feeling of accomplishment, loyalty, and pride.  All these get diminished when they can also be completed by random strangers they'll never associate with on a daily basis.

    Sure, there is PvP, Achievements, DE's, and 5 man dungeons, but will any of these features keep these communities (guilds/alliances/etc.) interested in the long run?

    PvP - This will probably be the only thing large scale guilds and/or communities will be able to do together.

    DE's - These can't be a coordinated effort for a large group of players (10+)  who want content solely for them only.

    5 mans - Only 5 people to coordinate strategy with.  Not so epic, considering other games have more people to strategize with.

  • DJJazzyDJJazzy louisville, COPosts: 2,053Member

    Originally posted by observer

    Sure, there is PvP, Achievements, DE's, and 5 man dungeons, but will any of these features keep these communities (guilds/alliances/etc.) interested in the long run?

    From my GW experience, I'd say a long time.

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