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World of Warcraft: Three Reasons WoW Didn’t Ruin MMOs

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  • holifeetholifeet BournemouthPosts: 532Member

    Originally posted by darkman



    "China and Korea have huge online communities and continue to grow drastically. All of this can be attributed to World of Warcraft’s phenomenal rise to stardom."



     



    Cute, but no not even close.


     

    I always thought that MMOs in the Far East were mor epopularised by games such as Lineage than WoW. There were huge communities in Korea and China playing Lineage long before WoW came along, weren't there?

    Maybe I'm wrong a second time, but isn't WoW relatively a new phenomenon in China and Korea?

    No matter what is correct, I don't feel that a huge market for MMOs in the Far East is a huge indicator of success in the West. I see it as there being two different types of market in each region and a minor amount of crossover.

     

    As for Garret's third point, well I don't really see where his love of WotLK fits in with the whole article. Did that expansion change MMOs for the better? Did Garret even say why, or did he run out of ideas? It just soudnbed to me like he wanted to pump that expansion.

     

    I've come a long way since WoW released. I played the game for a few months until I got bored at level 46. For a long time after I had a hatred for the game. All I could see was MMOs following the leader's lead and never even thinking about trying something new. I was rather stuck on my hatred for WoW.

    Then I considered something else. Wasn't EQ2 questy and far easier than it's father? Was it WoW that was making newer games questy or was it the just the predominant feature of games, at the time, that developers were just unwilling, or unable, to change?

    I've come so far from my blaming of WoW, that I actually blame games developers.

    It's devs that choose what goes in to their games. It's devs that decide they want to beat WoW by doing what it does better...or attempting to do so. It's devs that are far too often scared to do something new.

    WoW did what it did really well. I can't argue with that. It's post-WoW developers who, in an attempt to emulate, stagnated the genre for so long.

    Long live GW2, and the new-minded devs at Arena Net. May they bring a fresh new face to this genre and save us from the stagnation trap that has befallen developers.

    The developers of games that followed WoW were to blame for the stagnation. That doesn't mean I liked WoW.

    All hail the Pixel, for it is glorious Orange!
    .
  • DasKraut46DasKraut46 Williamstown, NJPosts: 22Member

    Originally posted by Elidien

    Originally posted by whisperwynd

    Originally posted by Evilkanebel

    I remember my days in Everquest as a Wood Elf Druid, people loved having you in the group because of your talents (Spirit of the Wolf and druid ports).

    Back then, you felt you had a reason to log on with your character and you were making a difference in the game.

    Today, you feel like a number in most of the mmo's and the world would careless even if you played.

    We lost a lot of the RPG elements in mmo's today in my opinion.

    EQ now lets you group with NPC's or so I hear. Task dungeons in DACO pretty much let you solo to 50 (which is like 5 days and not 5 months now).


    I think GW ruined community when it introduced heroes.  Now everyone seems to run around with heroes and hirelings instead of grouping with actual players. 

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,946Member Uncommon



    Long live GW2, and the new-minded devs at Arena Net. May they bring a fresh new face to this genre and save us from the stagnation trap that has befallen developers.

    The developers of games that followed WoW were to blame for the stagnation. That doesn't mean I liked WoW.

    couldnt agreee more with arena.net they are prepared to build first and ask customrer to pay in merit.   RE wow it was not the developers it was the corporate shift mid tbc.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • DasKraut46DasKraut46 Williamstown, NJPosts: 22Member

    Originally posted by Dhraal



    Originally posted by Squiggie





    Actually, WoW was not even close to "polished" at launch.  I can't believe how many people forget how messed up it was.  Blizzard saved themselves by relatively quickly fixing what was wrong, though.



    I played 2 years SWG before I started with WoW. And WoW was bugfree and polished compared to SWG, there was not even 1 server rollback where you lost a few hours of gameplay ;)  


     

     I can recall falling through the boats into the sea in WoW quite a few times.  Always when way out to sea so that it was instant death. :D

  • DasKraut46DasKraut46 Williamstown, NJPosts: 22Member

    Originally posted by DasKraut46



    Originally posted by Elidien




    Originally posted by whisperwynd




    Originally posted by Evilkanebel

    I remember my days in Everquest as a Wood Elf Druid, people loved having you in the group because of your talents (Spirit of the Wolf and druid ports).



    Back then, you felt you had a reason to log on with your character and you were making a difference in the game.



    Today, you feel like a number in most of the mmo's and the world would careless even if you played.



    We lost a lot of the RPG elements in mmo's today in my opinion.



    EQ now lets you group with NPC's or so I hear. Task dungeons in DACO pretty much let you solo to 50 (which is like 5 days and not 5 months now).






    I think GW ruined community when it introduced heroes.  Now everyone seems to run around with heroes and hirelings instead of grouping with actual players.


     


    ...

  • DasKraut46DasKraut46 Williamstown, NJPosts: 22Member

    Originally posted by DasKraut46



    Originally posted by DasKraut46








    Originally posted by Elidien












    Originally posted by whisperwynd












    Originally posted by Evilkanebel

    I remember my days in Everquest as a Wood Elf Druid, people loved having you in the group because of your talents (Spirit of the Wolf and druid ports).







    Back then, you felt you had a reason to log on with your character and you were making a difference in the game.







    Today, you feel like a number in most of the mmo's and the world would careless even if you played.







    We lost a lot of the RPG elements in mmo's today in my opinion.







    EQ now lets you group with NPC's or so I hear. Task dungeons in DACO pretty much let you solo to 50 (which is like 5 days and not 5 months now).














    I think GW ruined community when it introduced heroes.  Now everyone seems to run around with heroes and hirelings instead of grouping with actual players.






     






    ...


     I think GW ruined community when it introduced heroes.  Now everyone seems to run around with heroes and hirelings instead of grouping with actual players.



     


  • DasKraut46DasKraut46 Williamstown, NJPosts: 22Member

    Originally posted by DasKraut46



    Originally posted by DasKraut46








    Originally posted by DasKraut46




















    Originally posted by Elidien




























    Originally posted by whisperwynd




























    Originally posted by Evilkanebel





    I remember my days in Everquest as a Wood Elf Druid, people loved having you in the group because of your talents (Spirit of the Wolf and druid ports).















    Back then, you felt you had a reason to log on with your character and you were making a difference in the game.















    Today, you feel like a number in most of the mmo's and the world would careless even if you played.















    We lost a lot of the RPG elements in mmo's today in my opinion.















    EQ now lets you group with NPC's or so I hear. Task dungeons in DACO pretty much let you solo to 50 (which is like 5 days and not 5 months now).






























    I think GW ruined community when it introduced heroes.  Now everyone seems to run around with heroes and hirelings instead of grouping with actual players.














     














    ...






     I think GW ruined community when it introduced heroes.  Now everyone seems to run around with heroes and hirelings instead of grouping with actual players.








     



     

    I think GW ruined community when it introduced heroes.  Now everyone seems to run around with heroes and hirelings instead of grouping with actual players.

     

    P.S. - sorry about the multiple quotes but was having trouble getting my comments to show on this post.  Not sure why. 

  • jh19808jh19808 lebanon, ORPosts: 5Member

    Oh how did we survive in MMORPG land without 7 million gold farmers.Also could be wrong but pretty sure I was there at the LDoN everquest expansion launch and pretty sure it was instanced dungeons and pretty sure it was out before 2004.

  • DoozerglueDoozerglue Glendale, AZPosts: 38Member

    Some of you really don't get it.  WoW ruined nothing.  People have always had choices.  No one was forced to buy the game or subscribe.   If the mmo community wanted something different from WoW, they could have had it. However, the market dictated otherwise.  It seems that most people want the casual experience.  It's simple economics... demand dictates what is created or brought to the market.  WoW tapped that! They made a game that became the industry standard.  These game developers don't do it for you... they do it for them.  They make their games so they can get paid. 

    Blaming WoW for the decline of the MMO is like blaming the bartender because you got a DUI.  It's your fault.  In reality, 12 million subscribers are why there's a MMORPG.com, they are why you're at this site right now.  Whether you think WoW is good, bad, easy or hard makes no difference. It's subscription count  is the sole reason investors spend money on developing MMOs, and that's a good thing for all of us.

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon

    Bartender analogies…ok. :)


     


    Before WoW my bar was a place where we played domino’s and cards; now you get given a drink as you walk in the door for turning up. Before we played games, now that’s too hardcore and we just consume our beers. Bars used to be quite varied but when the WoW brewery took over they all became one brand. That led to pub crawls as one bar was much like another.


     


    That DUI was under the influence of WoW your honour, I plead mitigating circumstances.

  • IllyssiaIllyssia LondonPosts: 1,524Member

    WoW brought in the "holy trinity" of money making options...

    Box/download purchase + cash shop + sub

    they are just after your money here folks...it doesn't cost that much to run a server, look at how cheap all the cloud storage space is now.

  • Gunned813Gunned813 White Plains, NYPosts: 31Member

    I stopped reading at "12 million subscribers". The fact that chinese people can count for more than one yet this nonsense is still harked at every corner is nonsense as is this author.

    Not to mention these '12 million people' are some of the laziest, rudest, self-serving dimwitted people in the entire MMO community. They've had their roads paved in gold for so long that they've forgotten the difference between necessity and luxury.

    I hope WoW never dies or has their subs dented by anything. Why? Because I don't like WoW's community and I do not want them in any of the games I play or plan to. Honestly. Long live WoW.

  • HurricanePipHurricanePip Sommerille, MAPosts: 167Member

    Originally posted by precious328



    3 reasons why it didn't ruin MMOs.



    I have 300 reasons why it did.


     

    Obviously an exageration, but I think a top 10 reason of how WoW caters to the lowest common denominator would be pretty easy to come up with.

    Fair article for The Deveil's Advocate, but I think it misses the mark for suggesting the Warcraft as a game was the reason MMOs went mainstream.  Blizzard has 12 million players due to an ... eventually ... solid game.  I'm just saying vanilla WoW, pretty sloppy form launch to 2.0 and basically unplayable for the first six months due to server instabilitly.  WoW really benefitted from global expansion.  Last time I looked, the NA/EU regions didn't even account for 50% of the 12 million players.

    My most imporatnt take away from WoW though is that it's more like RL thatn we all want to admit.  It caters to the lowest common denominator rather than trying to raise the performance level of the general playerbase.  The nerfing of content and LFG system are a catalyst that only continues to increase the problem.  However, our society generally works the same way where we tend to nerf things to the lowest common denominator.  An obvious example is driving.  Second, the economy both in-game (AH) and gold farmers are both something we see every day in RL.  Basic knowledge of economics and a spreadhseet let you abuse the game like you're living in 1920's America.

    My biggest complaint about the current state of MMOs though is that the emphasis on actually playing the gmae has been reduced to virtually 0.  Most people play for the rewards and that generally diminshes the fun factor of every piece of content in the game with PvP BGs being the least fun piece of content because of how the reward system works.

    If you don't worry about it, it's not a problem.

  • willvaswillvas Joliet, ILPosts: 137Member

    Originally posted by darkman



    "China and Korea have huge online communities and continue to grow drastically. All of this can be attributed to World of Warcraft’s phenomenal rise to stardom."



     



    Cute, but no not even close.


     

    another clueless gamer... you do realize that the biggest MMO in China has 26 million subs?

    its all in chinese.. no english by the way... 

    next question you would ask is how do i know this.. because I teach English in China.  Oh and its funny how westerners truly think the world evolves around them.

    WOW is not the most successful MMO ever.. 11 million is not a lot compared to other MMOs i have seen. 

    numbers do not equate to success.. if a company makes a profit then it is a success.. plain and simple. 

  • YohanuYohanu Laholm, AKPosts: 214Member Uncommon

    The funny thing here is that i believe making MMO's mainstream in the first place was what ruined the genre. However, obviously Blizzard isn't to blame, the industry and extreme capitalism is.

  • balduranbgbalduranbg SofiaPosts: 23Member


  • balduranbgbalduranbg SofiaPosts: 23Member

    Sorry for the empty post, that was a misclick.

     

    1) 12 mln. players means that there is 12 mln players with mixed expectations, who also tend to trash in general chat. Anal jokes anyone?

    As the situation is at the moment, niche MMOs have quite the nicer atmosphere, as the players generally respect the unwritten rules of in game communication to a higher level. WoW's community, as it stands, has the worst track record of being a pleasant one.

    2) The dungeong finder - ruined even the limited community spirit there was. Before it came out people used to have an extended list of in game friends. I myself used to keep a list of people's characters and what role they are best fit for.

    Nowadays people barely do any dungeons with their guilds, apart from the weekly raids.

     

    3) WotLK - Great expansion for WoW, which also makes it bad in general for the quality of MMOs out there. Once the Lich King came out everyone started copying Blizzard to the letter, hoping to bath in some of its financial success. This led to limiting the diversity on the market. It might have been brought out of the niche - yes, but it also got so watered down that nowadays an seasoned player has a difficult time finding any original trait in a new game.

     

    Please note that I do not hate WoW. This is probably the MMO I have played the longest. But that does not make me blind to its downsides and weaknesses.

  • paroxysmparoxysm Nowhere, INPosts: 437Member

    In a way WoW did and did not ruin the MMO industry all at the same time.

     

    Especially in this economy with investor driven companies, the people calling the shots want a "sure thing".  The sheer size of investment in a triple A mmo is rather substantial.  So, they look to what is ruling the market and they copy it.  At the same time, WoW is mostly a copy of earlier games.  They are still adopting systems that have been in other games for a very long time.  It rode popularity to where it is.  The problem is, they let it go to their head.  They put themselves up in the clouds looking down on it's users/customers.  They've made all the rework of the leveling up wasted by making sure no one ever sees it all via the speed at which you level.  Then they wonder why people get bored at top level with what little they give you for just that level and rehashed content to boot.

     

    They indirectly ruined the MMO market by being the #1 MMO and a ton of people wanting to break off a piece of that kind of profit. 

     

    They directly ruined the market by being that #1 in profit and population MMO and then showing those same people how to berate and enrage their customers.  How to constantly tell their customers just how wrong about everything they are without substantial or even glancing proof.  And then taking the grind out of a grind so that people are bored with it.  Is faster content releases that get cleared faster than they can pump it out better than well designed and challenging content that takes longer and feels like an accomplishment?  They killed the community.  They empower the trolls and ragers.  They killed meaningfull communication and discussions.  They took away the reason to explore and get out of the main cities other than farming.  Which, is done faster by flying/underground bots that only get banned in large sums after long periods of time.

     

    TLDR:

    They ruined it by getting to be where they were, where MMOs want to be, and then taking an asparagus leak all over their own customers and product.  Just my opinion.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,030Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Illyssia

    WoW brought in the "holy trinity" of money making options...

    Box/download purchase + cash shop + sub

    they are just after your money here folks...it doesn't cost that much to run a server, look at how cheap all the cloud storage space is now.

    No, it was Smedley who started with it for Everquest 2. Morhaime just followed in his footsteps.

    Still, it is the reason I right now have given up on P2P games.

  • IchmenIchmen Winnipeg, MBPosts: 1,228Member

    the reason many blame WoW for the death of MMOs. is PRE-WoW the MMOer was a small minority of gamers. with WoW it brought in alot more first time MMOers to the genra .. while that is a great thing.. because they have never played a mmo before... the expect every game to be like wow and when they do not want wow all they see are newer games BEING wow..

    because companies want to make the money blizzard made with wow... so wind up copying alot of the crap wow did which they copied from other games and put their own spin on. because of that newer games come across as clones of wow

     

    so in that regard many view WoW as the reason MMOS suck now. companies do not put the effort in to be unique anymore they jsut want a clone WoW to make the subs and money... and that is pretty much killing them as no one wants a WoW clone... they want a NEW GAME.. >>" 

    CPU: Intel Core i7 CPU 860 2.8GHz
    Evga GeForce 670 FTW
    Evga P55 SLI

    <image

  • paroxysmparoxysm Nowhere, INPosts: 437Member

    Originally posted by Evilkanebel



    Originally posted by Abdar

    Love it or hate it, if it wasn't for WoW HUGE success, we probably wouldn't be seeing the likes of SWTOR, TERA, GW2, SW etc coming out.

    WoW brought MMO's to the forefront and captured a whole new audience that didn't play them before. Because of that, we'll all reap the rewards of other companies trying to cash in.

    It was happier times for me before WoW.

    I had Shadowbane, EQ,  Dark Age of Camelot, Anarchy Online, and Star Wars Galaxies to keep me busy.

    When Everquest 2 and World of Warcraft came into the picture, yeah we saw a major flux in the community on mmorpg gamers, however it also brought the trash with them <imo>

    The older mmorpg's  to me had a better immersion factor, today I feel like I am just playing a xbox / ps3 game on my PC.

    If WoW didn't happen, I gurantee we would still have mmorpg today.


     

    I miss those games.  I miss those communities.  But, they were also far far from perfect and the developers left them to die for various reasons.  FUncom let AO die for the most part to chase the WoW genre.  AoC.

     

    I believe the horrible communities aren't just the fault of WoW.  While they do encourage the trolls and ragers with horrible moderation, I think it's also a reflection of the state of the current social status.  Everything that is popular at the moment is all about the "me".  Delusional people that think everyone is hanging on their every action.  People that you can look at and think "why are they popular again?".  And sadily, everything thinks they are or should be for watching one of the 1billion reality tv shows and knowing they are better than those on it. 

    If you really want to see bad communities, log into some FPS games where mics are enabled.  8yr olds screaming at you so loud you secretly hope they really will swallow that mic on accident.  Telling you how bad you are and how bad your choice in gear is until you shoot them in the face.  Then, they blame 50 things for the reason it happened, and bash you once again if you miss a shot.  "You are bad kid!"  "RAAAAAAAAAAAAAWR!".  These are also the games with the most cheats so that people can pat themselves on the back more for doing nothing.  Our population sucks as a whole.

  • armanth13armanth13 Coos Bay, ORPosts: 34Member

    for me, I look at the wow I started playing, and the wow that came out with wrath and I look at everything and go all the massive changes people bitch about are changes the community bitched about wanting...It's not a 50/50 split but blizzard is doing in small doses what they need to which is listen to their player base and fix what truly needs to be.  It got too dumbed down for me or too easy however you want to put it, since I remember when it was more of a challenge than it is now.  It's not a bad mmo, and there are dozens of reason why it sucks and dozens of reasons why it's great it's all in player perspective. 

  • RajCajRajCaj Lafayette, LAPosts: 693Member Uncommon

    I get the Devils Advocate approach...and its a good one to have to spark conversation and interest.....but I have to say, this article was a little short of the mark.

     

    This read more like 3 Reasons WOW doesn't suck....instead of 3 Reasons WOW didn't make MMOs suck.

     

    The first point (WOW Mainstreamed MMOs) was a valid argument.  It's inaccurate (IMO), but this is a Devils Advocate article.  I can appreciate how some might feel that WOW mainstreaming MMOs enabled more "gamers" to experience MMO gaming than before.

    My counter argument is that this that more of these "gamers" prefer a very different type of game than we associate with traditional MMORPGs.  Considering that casual gamers make up the largest piece of the "gamer" pie....its no supprise that modern MMORPGs (and their nifty monthly fee pricing structure) have been designed to appeal to more casual gamers. 

    Considering that casual gaming sort of flys in the face of traditional "virtual world" MMORPG gaming, its no secret why there has been such a divide between the MMO players in the last 3+ years.

     

    Secondly, while cross-server grouping & instanced dungeons may have enabled more people casually floating through WOW to access instanced content....its truely done a number on the community as a whole.

    Whats that old saying....nothing worth doing is ever easy?  There were very valueable learned behaviors associated with one putting together their own group, or having to run half way across the map to get to a dungeon.  It made the player put skin in the game.  Even though it comes via a cheap time sink.....players think twice about doing stupid  anti-social things when they risk the investment they put into the group. 

    If that investment is just a mouse click to fire up a queue.....then its no supprise that players drop group or treat other group members like crap when its only a small inconvienece to their normal flow if they have to bail.  If it took them half an hour to form the group...and another 20 minutes to get to the dungeon....they will think twice before doing something dumb, or will be more willing to work the problem out with the group.  These sort of hard knocks activities build character in the community.

     

    And lastly....I don't get at all how Wrath of the Lich King benefitted the MMO community.  It introduced even more tech (phasing content, cross server grouping) that allowed players in a persistant world to avoid the persistant world (and all its players in it).  It allowed people to talk to eachother less.  It allowed people to avoid social interaction more.

    Within WOWs own rights, yes....it was a successful expansion, but I failed to see any points (or even any feasable arguments) how it helped improve the MMO community...much less any counterpoints to how it DIDN'T hurt the MMO community.

     

     

     

    WOW is a GREAT CO-OP experience game...and did many things to refine that package.....but did MANY things to tear down those main pillars of the persistant world / community focused MMORPG model.

  • RajCajRajCaj Lafayette, LAPosts: 693Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Ichmen

    the reason many blame WoW for the death of MMOs. is PRE-WoW the MMOer was a small minority of gamers. with WoW it brought in alot more first time MMOers to the genra .. while that is a great thing.. because they have never played a mmo before... the expect every game to be like wow and when they do not want wow all they see are newer games BEING wow..


    Another thing to note is that this "BIG TENT" approach to MMO gaming is that it creates a fustrating experience for the non-casual audience.

     

    When the playerbase was more homogenous, you had more like minded people playing together.  The steep learning curve kept the casual gamers out and the people left standing all shared the same ideals about the game they wanted to play...and shared the same dedication to playing their character well.

    I can't tell you how MUCH MORE ENJOYABLE it is to play with other people that are like minded and know how to play their character.  To contrast this....jump in any given Battleground in WOW, at any given time of the day, and witness the end result of our Gamer melting pot that is in WOW...and how chaotic and fustrating that experience is.
  • paroxysmparoxysm Nowhere, INPosts: 437Member

    "armanth13 writes:



    for me, I look at the wow I started playing, and the wow that came out with wrath and I look at everything and go all the massive changes people bitch about are changes the community bitched about wanting...It's not a 50/50 split but blizzard is doing in small doses what they need to which is listen to their player base and fix what truly needs to be. It got too dumbed down for me or too easy however you want to put it, since I remember when it was more of a challenge than it is now. It's not a bad mmo, and there are dozens of reason why it sucks and dozens of reasons why it's great it's all in player perspective.  "

    Personally, I do not think they are doing what players want truly. By that I mean, bigger and larger issues. Instead, they add a lot of ease of use changes.





    A big example has to be PvP balance. Every time, they say the game is more balanced than ever. They say that in the face of being dropped from tournament organizations. They say that in the face of not being more balanced, but just having even more tools spread around. The reason balance is so bad in WoW? They are too tunnel focused on issues, they build the game with different goals for PvP and PvE in terms of tools, DPS, and support actions/buffs. They build the dungeon to require one level of damage and then don't adjust PvP to accommodate those levels of damage. How many times have they upped HP levels and PvP is still over in a blink? How many times have they gutted crowd control and stuns for some classes but leave frost mages in tact? Then they say they need all that control. It's not for dungeons/PvE, so even though it's too much in PvP, they can't adjust it?



    Yeah, they make some big changes, but it's just that. It's a change, but often not an improvement. Or, they make sweeping changes for a said reason, and then leave one class/spec with it contrary to their said reason to changing/removing it.

    But, you have to expect that from developers like GC who constantly contradicts himself or has to be constantly corrected by players on how his game actually works. Though, they did fix that part. They put him in a blog instead of on the forums...

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