It's because most people playing mmo's just want instant gratification because they hate slow progress. If things take too long to get interesting most people will say "I hate this! It's so slow! This blows!" and either quit or cheat. Again, this makes me wish games were more focused on exploration or possibly finding stuff.
this.
You could have all the content in the world, but if people arent hearing that DING every hour, they rage and demand more rewards for less work.
I have seen many people quit EVE due to the fact that they werent earning a billion isk a week. "This is stupid! everything so expensive! i cant compete with a freighter!" (hey numbnuts, those freighters started out in frigates too!). an hour of good market research, and trade routes are easily figured out. (but that requires doing actual work. something most people avoid today)
Would you really pay 60 bucks for something you're not gonna spend much time with? Should it really just be a push of one button and have the whole experience over with?
Would you really pay 60 bucks for something you're not gonna spend much time with? Should it really just be a push of one button and have the whole experience over with?
People pay a premium for quality games that'll deliver quality entertainment.
I spent 60 dollars on Child of Eden. Awesome game that I finished in 5 hours.
I spent 60 dollars on Vanquish. Another awesome game that I finished in 10. etc
Length rarely has anything to do with it. If it did, all that gets sold are grindy MMOs which isn't the case.
Despite the negativity it gets from this community, WoW actually does really well in getting rid of the 'not fun' aspect of your traditional MMOs.
'I only have 2 hours to play a game, I want those 2 hours to be good'. I don't know why this statement is an issue?
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I believe you misunderstood the use of the phrase. Often you hear "I don't have enough time anymore" in regards to things like raids. Where you have to set aside a block of time sometimes in excess of four hours. That was fine when the only responsibility we had was middle school and high school, but as college, jobs and families come into the picture finding 4 uninterrupted hours is much more difficult.
It's not that there is some massive change in the amount of time availible, its that uninterrupted time that is growing scarce.
There is nothing saying you HAVE to dedicate "x" amount of time to make an MMO worth it....
I agree, but the problem, as I see, is that they "force" you (designing the game) to spend that "x" amount of time to feel some sense of accomplishment. At least from most of the MMO's out there. It's like they tell "You HAVE to grind/raid to have fun." Or "fun".
Originally posted by FlawSGI
I think that games that push you to end game as fast as possible are souless. I also played FFXI for years before army buddies got me to switch to WoW. I was only in FFXI for 2 years and I was beginning to scratch all the content. I am not praising FFXI over other games because I didn't like all the waiting around to do stuff. Hell I bet nearly half of my playing time was waiting around. But the world itself felt large and the game didn't rush you to the cap.
@mfuk: IDK what MMO's you have been playing....but almost NONE lately force you to spend more time in them to get fun. Although I siad I haven't played an MMO for about a year...as in religiously, I have tried a few trials...and did the Rift beta. In all accounts...without even really trying even, I could level with ease, complete quests and dungeons without assistance (because no one wants to group anyways) and got bored REALLY fast. They just don't "grab" you and pull you into the world.
The only MMO's I have seen that "force" you to do anythign are the microtransaction and cash shop types. They force you to buy to keep up. And adly...this is the model most are asking for. Makes little sense to me. Other than most don't want monthly subscriptions because they don't have the time. Vicious circle.
@ FlawSGI: That's because these new players want it that way. The console generation moved in because (And IDC what anyone says otherwise) Blizzard/WoW's massive advertising and mainstreaming of the genre brought them in. They seem to think all MMO's are suppose to be like WoW.
Don't want long quests, don't want to even read the quests and follow the lore in most cases, want fast leveling to get to raid content and shiney items, want battlegrounds, stat boards, instant repop spawning with no penalties, (like console games ironically), community killing instancing, want to feel like the hero of the world and be God-like.....
I work with a kid (20 yr. old chubby gamer...go figure) that started with WoW, and thsi is how he thinks even! Sad state the genre has become. And it's players fault more than developer's by a long shot. If they didn't ask for it, the dev's would design it another way. So....again, the genre is fading away from what is started as into just another form of instant gratification...but on a PC.
You keep bashing the "console generation" and assume it is completely safe since this is a forum mostly dedicated to computer-related gaming.
Unless the good, and I emphasize "good", console rpgs have drastically changed since the Playstation II era, in the way they care about their own story, there is no reason to believe that the majority of the console rpg-gamers have changed into the way you described them to have.
I don't know how many "good" rpgs you've played from the Playstation II to SNES era, but I assure you that those who played back then, made sure to read every single line of text. A huge part of the charm with the console rpgs back then was the story, the quality of the stories was nowhere near classical litterature, but still enjoyable enough for teenagers who haven't really read or seen much due to their low age.
If anything it is the dumbed down, completely bland and soulless stories in general mmorpgs that have made people within the same genre just grow tired of attempting to read them.
For instance the kid you talk about: if he currently is 20 years old, it means he was around 13 years old when Final Fantasy X was released on Playstation II in 2004. Unless he really hates console rpgs, he should have played it. In that game, if exaggerate, the story was practically everything, its goal was to make the player emotionally attached, which it certainly succeeded with the majority of its fans. When was the last time a mmorpg made the player emotionally attached to its story?
Although I don't know to what extent other older console rpg gamers do it, I clearly remember myself talking with every npc I met when I played "good" console rpgs. I wanted to hear what they had to say and I wanted myself to immerse into the world they portrayed.
If anyone understands the concept of "the journey is more important than the destination", it should be console rpg gamers.
There is nothing saying you HAVE to dedicate "x" amount of time to make an MMO worth it....
I agree, but the problem, as I see, is that they "force" you (designing the game) to spend that "x" amount of time to feel some sense of accomplishment. At least from most of the MMO's out there. It's like they tell "You HAVE to grind/raid to have fun." Or "fun".
Originally posted by FlawSGI
I think that games that push you to end game as fast as possible are souless. I also played FFXI for years before army buddies got me to switch to WoW. I was only in FFXI for 2 years and I was beginning to scratch all the content. I am not praising FFXI over other games because I didn't like all the waiting around to do stuff. Hell I bet nearly half of my playing time was waiting around. But the world itself felt large and the game didn't rush you to the cap.
@mfuk: IDK what MMO's you have been playing....but almost NONE lately force you to spend more time in them to get fun. Although I siad I haven't played an MMO for about a year...as in religiously, I have tried a few trials...and did the Rift beta. In all accounts...without even really trying even, I could level with ease, complete quests and dungeons without assistance (because no one wants to group anyways) and got bored REALLY fast. They just don't "grab" you and pull you into the world.
The only MMO's I have seen that "force" you to do anythign are the microtransaction and cash shop types. They force you to buy to keep up. And adly...this is the model most are asking for. Makes little sense to me. Other than most don't want monthly subscriptions because they don't have the time. Vicious circle.
@ FlawSGI: That's because these new players want it that way. The console generation moved in because (And IDC what anyone says otherwise) Blizzard/WoW's massive advertising and mainstreaming of the genre brought them in. They seem to think all MMO's are suppose to be like WoW.
Don't want long quests, don't want to even read the quests and follow the lore in most cases, want fast leveling to get to raid content and shiney items, want battlegrounds, stat boards, instant repop spawning with no penalties, (like console games ironically), community killing instancing, want to feel like the hero of the world and be God-like.....
I work with a kid (20 yr. old chubby gamer...go figure) that started with WoW, and thsi is how he thinks even! Sad state the genre has become. And it's players fault more than developer's by a long shot. If they didn't ask for it, the dev's would design it another way. So....again, the genre is fading away from what is started as into just another form of instant gratification...but on a PC.
You keep bashing the "console generation" and assume it is completely safe since this is a forum mostly dedicated to computer-related gaming.
Unless the good, and I emphasize "good", console rpgs have drastically changed since the Playstation II era, in the way they care about their own story, there is no reason to believe that the majority of the console rpg-gamers have changed into the way you described them to have.
I don't know how many "good" rpgs you've played from the Playstation II to SNES era, but I assure you that those who played back then, made sure to read every single line of text. A huge part of the charm with the console rpgs back then was the story, the quality of the stories was nowhere near classical litterature, but still enjoyable enough for teenagers who haven't really read or seen much due to their low age.
If anything it is the dumbed down, completely bland and soulless stories in general mmorpgs that have made people within the same genre just grow tired of attempting to read them.
For instance the kid you talk about: if he currently is 20 years old, it means he was around 13 years old when Final Fantasy X was released on Playstation II in 2004. Unless he really hates console rpgs, he should have played it. In that game, if exaggerate, the story was practically everything, its goal was to make the player emotionally attached, which it certainly succeeded with the majority of its fans. When was the last time a mmorpg made the player emotionally attached to its story?
Although I don't know to what extent other older console rpg gamers do it, I clearly remember myself talking with every npc I met when I played "good" console rpgs. I wanted to hear what they had to say and I wanted myself to immerse into the world they portrayed.
If anyone understands the concept of "the journey is more important than the destination", it should be console rpg gamers.
its not because this forum is "safe" but because its true
I dont see how anyone can consider 4 hours of gameplay for $60 a good Return on Investment (mirrors edge, COD, ODST, heavenly sword, etc).
And RPGs today are nothing but interactive movies. *Press X to advance the next scene* or *movie pauses, Press X make a good choice, or Triangle to make a bad choice*
RPGs "back in my time" demanded that you use more than 1% of your brain power. You filled in the blanks, resulting in you caring much more for the characters and story.
its not because this forum is "safe" but because its true
I dont see how anyone can consider 4 hours of gameplay for $60 a good Return on Investment (mirrors edge, COD, ODST, heavenly sword, etc).
And RPGs today are nothing but interactive movies. *Press X to advance the next scene* or *movie pauses, Press X make a good choice, or Triangle to make a bad choice*
RPGs "back in my time" demanded that you use more than 1% of your brain power. You filled in the blanks, resulting in you caring much more for the characters and story.
video killed the radio star?
You keep on talking about Return on Investment but how can you have ROI on an entertainment form?
You can buy 'Angry Birds' for a dollar and be entertained for hours.
According to your 'ROI' logic, Angry Birds must be Game of the Year.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
You keep bashing the "console generation" and assume it is completely safe since this is a forum mostly dedicated to computer-related gaming.
Unless the good, and I emphasize "good", console rpgs have drastically changed since the Playstation II era, in the way they care about their own story, there is no reason to believe that the majority of the console rpg-gamers have changed into the way you described them to have.
I don't know how many "good" rpgs you've played from the Playstation II to SNES era, but I assure you that those who played back then, made sure to read every single line of text. A huge part of the charm with the console rpgs back then was the story, the quality of the stories was nowhere near classical litterature, but still enjoyable enough for teenagers who haven't really read or seen much due to their low age.
If anything it is the dumbed down, completely bland and soulless stories in general mmorpgs that have made people within the same genre just grow tired of attempting to read them.
For instance the kid you talk about: if he currently is 20 years old, it means he was around 13 years old when Final Fantasy X was released on Playstation II in 2004. Unless he really hates console rpgs, he should have played it. In that game, if exaggerate, the story was practically everything, its goal was to make the player emotionally attached, which it certainly succeeded with the majority of its fans. When was the last time a mmorpg made the player emotionally attached to its story?
Although I don't know to what extent other older console rpg gamers do it, I clearly remember myself talking with every npc I met when I played "good" console rpgs. I wanted to hear what they had to say and I wanted myself to immerse into the world they portrayed.
If anyone understands the concept of "the journey is more important than the destination", it should be console rpg gamers.
My point exactly if you read your own post. What I was getting at is...most MMO's now are single player instant gratification games because "The game that dare not be mentioned" incorporated mass advertisement via t.v., etc....using movie stars and rock stars etc to draw in the masses (Unecessary unless you are trying to get the attention of a younger generation). Most of which came from the console genre because honestly...do you think there were even half of 11 million (At one time) younger players that played MMO's prior to WoW? I think not. Especially since most complain on forums excessively how things are too slow, I NEED more rewards , I WANT stat boards, I WANT battlegrounds to pwn others in, etc, etc.
Yes, they don't read quest text because most MMO's now have strayed away from meaningful and deep storylines. I have said that before....why? Because they focus more on the action part, because most players in today's generation don't have the patience now to read..or are too lazy. Most want everything NOW NOW NOW.
And that 20 year old I spoke of? He drinks NOS like it is the water of life. Shows up to work with seconds to spare before he is late... NEVER does overtime (Which is currently required and he gets scolded for not doing it), and one night I didn't bring a lunch and went with him to Sheetz to grab some food as he does every night...and his car (Impala) was a trash heap. I mean the inside was FULL of garbage...food wrappers, empty NOS/Gatorade/soda cans, etc, etc. I had to sit in a pile of it, and wade my feet in it. It was ridiculous. If we had been in an even 10 mph fender bender, I'd probably of been killed by flying debris inside the car. =P I'd call that lazy.
And I certainly don't think it's "safe" here to talk badly about console players...hell, not even MMO players. The trolls are many. And I wouldn't talk bad about them if they didn't give me reason to. Plus...it's called freedom fo speech. I have played console games since Atari 2600...I AM (Or was anyways) a console player myself. But that has tapered off because most console games I have encountered lately also lack and meaningful storylines or depth. Most are just full of eye candy and action...just like movies now. No meaningful stories...but it has lots of explosions and other action! /eyeroll
It's certainly not EVERY young player these days. But it IS safe to say the majority. Don't forget, I was once a teenager or a 20 something. I know how they work. I was on the end I bitch about now at one time. Back then though, I didn't realize it. I was young and thought I knew everything (Still don't, but realize that I don't. The other difference =P). However...the internet wasn't NEARLY as big as it is now. Players can make MUCH more of an impact on the outcome of a game, or how it is focused in design, etc now than you could then. THIS is why MMO's now are all fast paced, single player (Practically), instant gratification ridden garbage. Most haven't played MMO's before WoW...and think that is how they should all be or were meant to be designed. Again, If the majority didn't ask for it...it would be designed for whatever other model they wanted that had the money roll in for the company. It's the players faults more than the companies that games lack depth, structure, and meaningful stories and content.
Take any good game/puzzle eg Rubik's Cube and ppl will find the time (hours!) to play if they are engaged by it or 0. Hrs if they are not. It seems MMOs are in many ways, large games with a concrete number of hours to them instead of the "infinite possibilities of an ever-changing persistent world" that the expectation of gamers (self included) might have for this genre is one disconnect especially applicable here?
I tend to enjoy the Mario Kart, Bomberman, Goldeneye, Super Smash Bros. games the most as these small gems invariably lead to loads of sociable fun and replayable outcomes. Alternatively if a game has deep strategy to learn eg Chess, Go etc then these last for a long time as well. If mmorpgs can combine the short term repeatability with the long term depth there's a game everyone's going to have time to spare for?
But the grind/level-up treadmill seems to make a lot of money and waste a lot of players time is hard to avoid finding most games built this way and I could easily fit in the above, the missing:
""I don't have enough time anymore [to waste on diminishing returns].""
3 years in to playing an MMO hardcore way back when, I got up took a look in the mirror and went...Holy shit! what happaned to me, where did those years of my life go? Why did i choose to waste that many years trying to be the best at a kids video game?!.
So after sometime, I got off the dam treadmill and started making some calls to friends i had alienated due to my online play time. We got together went camping and ever since then i wont waste my life being hardcore ever again. I don't want to wake uip some day and look in that mirror and have grey hair saying the same words over and over again. when your a teen you have the time to waste your life when you get older you start running out of time. so that swhat really happened with hardecore casual debate.
People try to use the excuse that job/kids and that may be true, but watching your self age when you waste years playing a game and to have nothing to show for it at the end is almost the saddest thing in the world. it just sad.
Seeing mates still in their work gear Sunday afternoon cause they're been gaming all weekend or seeing a house with nothing in it bar a bed and a laptop. What for? Another piece of "shiny"?
I never "End Gamed" to start with and once I saw I was in a Skinner Box I got out. I can play BF:BC2 for any amount of time and I'm still having fun. WoW/etc its just a tedious grind, the action is slow paced and the average World mob is as dangerous as a poodle.
A hobby is great until it takes over everything else. I don't recommend MMO's to anyone cause the damage they can do.
My point exactly if you read your own post. What I was getting at is...most MMO's now are single player instant gratification games because "The game that dare not be mentioned" incorporated mass advertisement via t.v., etc....using movie stars and rock stars etc to draw in the masses (Unecessary unless you are trying to get the attention of a younger generation). Most of which came from the console genre because honestly...do you think there were even half of 11 million (At one time) younger players that played MMO's prior to WoW? I think not. Especially since most complain on forums excessively how things are too slow, I NEED more rewards , I WANT stat boards, I WANT battlegrounds to pwn others in, etc, etc.
Yes, they don't read quest text because most MMO's now have strayed away from meaningful and deep storylines. I have said that before....why? Because they focus more on the action part, because most players in today's generation don't have the patience now to read..or are too lazy. Most want everything NOW NOW NOW.
And that 20 year old I spoke of? He drinks NOS like it is the water of life. Shows up to work with seconds to spare before he is late... NEVER does overtime (Which is currently required and he gets scolded for not doing it), and one night I didn't bring a lunch and went with him to Sheetz to grab some food as he does every night...and his car (Impala) was a trash heap. I mean the inside was FULL of garbage...food wrappers, empty NOS/Gatorade/soda cans, etc, etc. I had to sit in a pile of it, and wade my feet in it. It was ridiculous. If we had been in an even 10 mph fender bender, I'd probably of been killed by flying debris inside the car. =P I'd call that lazy.
And I certainly don't think it's "safe" here to talk badly about console players...hell, not even MMO players. The trolls are many. And I wouldn't talk bad about them if they didn't give me reason to. Plus...it's called freedom fo speech. I have played console games since Atari 2600...I AM (Or was anyways) a console player myself. But that has tapered off because most console games I have encountered lately also lack and meaningful storylines or depth. Most are just full of eye candy and action...just like movies now. No meaningful stories...but it has lots of explosions and other action! /eyeroll
It's certainly not EVERY young player these days. But it IS safe to say the majority. Don't forget, I was once a teenager or a 20 something. I know how they work. I was on the end I bitch about now at one time. Back then though, I didn't realize it. I was young and thought I knew everything (Still don't, but realize that I don't. The other difference =P). However...the internet wasn't NEARLY as big as it is now. Players can make MUCH more of an impact on the outcome of a game, or how it is focused in design, etc now than you could then. THIS is why MMO's now are all fast paced, single player (Practically), instant gratification ridden garbage. Most haven't played MMO's before WoW...and think that is how they should all be or were meant to be designed. Again, If the majority didn't ask for it...it would be designed for whatever other model they wanted that had the money roll in for the company. It's the players faults more than the companies that games lack depth, structure, and meaningful stories and content.
lol, It's entertaining when someone does a pure train of thought.....hahaha....it smells like burnt hair.....window is open, cooling down out don't have to run AC all the time anymore, but I smell burnt hair, just a light amount of it....
There is nothing saying you HAVE to dedicate "x" amount of time to make an MMO worth it....
I agree, but the problem, as I see, is that they "force" you (designing the game) to spend that "x" amount of time to feel some sense of accomplishment. At least from most of the MMO's out there. It's like they tell "You HAVE to grind/raid to have fun." Or "fun".
Originally posted by FlawSGI
I think that games that push you to end game as fast as possible are souless. I also played FFXI for years before army buddies got me to switch to WoW. I was only in FFXI for 2 years and I was beginning to scratch all the content. I am not praising FFXI over other games because I didn't like all the waiting around to do stuff. Hell I bet nearly half of my playing time was waiting around. But the world itself felt large and the game didn't rush you to the cap.
@mfuk: IDK what MMO's you have been playing....but almost NONE lately force you to spend more time in them to get fun. Although I siad I haven't played an MMO for about a year...as in religiously, I have tried a few trials...and did the Rift beta. In all accounts...without even really trying even, I could level with ease, complete quests and dungeons without assistance (because no one wants to group anyways) and got bored REALLY fast. They just don't "grab" you and pull you into the world.
The only MMO's I have seen that "force" you to do anythign are the microtransaction and cash shop types. They force you to buy to keep up. And adly...this is the model most are asking for. Makes little sense to me. Other than most don't want monthly subscriptions because they don't have the time. Vicious circle.
@ FlawSGI: That's because these new players want it that way. The console generation moved in because (And IDC what anyone says otherwise) Blizzard/WoW's massive advertising and mainstreaming of the genre brought them in. They seem to think all MMO's are suppose to be like WoW.
Don't want long quests, don't want to even read the quests and follow the lore in most cases, want fast leveling to get to raid content and shiney items, want battlegrounds, stat boards, instant repop spawning with no penalties, (like console games ironically), community killing instancing, want to feel like the hero of the world and be God-like.....
I work with a kid (20 yr. old chubby gamer...go figure) that started with WoW, and thsi is how he thinks even! Sad state the genre has become. And it's players fault more than developer's by a long shot. If they didn't ask for it, the dev's would design it another way. So....again, the genre is fading away from what is started as into just another form of instant gratification...but on a PC.
You keep bashing the "console generation" and assume it is completely safe since this is a forum mostly dedicated to computer-related gaming.
Unless the good, and I emphasize "good", console rpgs have drastically changed since the Playstation II era, in the way they care about their own story, there is no reason to believe that the majority of the console rpg-gamers have changed into the way you described them to have.
I don't know how many "good" rpgs you've played from the Playstation II to SNES era, but I assure you that those who played back then, made sure to read every single line of text. A huge part of the charm with the console rpgs back then was the story, the quality of the stories was nowhere near classical litterature, but still enjoyable enough for teenagers who haven't really read or seen much due to their low age.
If anything it is the dumbed down, completely bland and soulless stories in general mmorpgs that have made people within the same genre just grow tired of attempting to read them.
For instance the kid you talk about: if he currently is 20 years old, it means he was around 13 years old when Final Fantasy X was released on Playstation II in 2004. Unless he really hates console rpgs, he should have played it. In that game, if exaggerate, the story was practically everything, its goal was to make the player emotionally attached, which it certainly succeeded with the majority of its fans. When was the last time a mmorpg made the player emotionally attached to its story?
Although I don't know to what extent other older console rpg gamers do it, I clearly remember myself talking with every npc I met when I played "good" console rpgs. I wanted to hear what they had to say and I wanted myself to immerse into the world they portrayed.
If anyone understands the concept of "the journey is more important than the destination", it should be console rpg gamers.
its not because this forum is "safe" but because its true
I dont see how anyone can consider 4 hours of gameplay for $60 a good Return on Investment (mirrors edge, COD, ODST, heavenly sword, etc).
And RPGs today are nothing but interactive movies. *Press X to advance the next scene* or *movie pauses, Press X make a good choice, or Triangle to make a bad choice*
RPGs "back in my time" demanded that you use more than 1% of your brain power. You filled in the blanks, resulting in you caring much more for the characters and story.
video killed the radio star?
One of his previous points was basically that console gamers are too lazy to read quest texts. Yet, which types of console gamers go on to try mmorpgs? Most likely console rpg-players. Console rpgs have for a long time had a strong focus on the story. Why would players who are accustomed to read the story in their console rpgs, suddenly become too lazy to read the ones in mmorpgs? It makes no sense. However, in this forum, people are less likely to have extensive first-hand knowledge about how console rpgs have been throughout the years and whether or not console rpg-gamers are too lazy to read quest texts.
On another note: why is it wrong if some rpgs become more alike interactive movies? Movies can be very entertaining, provoking, philosophical and inspiring. If you want an intellectual challenge, why would you waste your time searching for it in a game, when you can find difficult and more meaningful challenging problems in economy and natural sciences?
Furthermore, I see nothing wrong with a game that focuses on building an emotional rollercoaster rather than being difficult to "beat". Something being intellectually challenging is not a necessary and sometimes not even a sufficient condition for something to be entertaining. We are humans after all; we have emotions and empathy (at least of most of us), on which you can build games.
Sure, you can create your own self-made stories for your characters in a rpg, but why not just write a book then? There is nothing wrong with enjoying a game in which you just play through a story an author has written, while being presented a certain degree of freedom in how you go through that story.
As for the money-issue: there are people who are prepared to pay for quality or for unique experiences even though they may be short-lived. While I do not know whether or not the quality of the games you described would be worth 40 dollars in my eyes, I do know that I am willing to accept far higher prices for other short-term "events" such as eating at a fine dining restaurant or attending a musical concert.
You keep bashing the "console generation" and assume it is completely safe since this is a forum mostly dedicated to computer-related gaming.
Unless the good, and I emphasize "good", console rpgs have drastically changed since the Playstation II era, in the way they care about their own story, there is no reason to believe that the majority of the console rpg-gamers have changed into the way you described them to have.
I don't know how many "good" rpgs you've played from the Playstation II to SNES era, but I assure you that those who played back then, made sure to read every single line of text. A huge part of the charm with the console rpgs back then was the story, the quality of the stories was nowhere near classical litterature, but still enjoyable enough for teenagers who haven't really read or seen much due to their low age.
If anything it is the dumbed down, completely bland and soulless stories in general mmorpgs that have made people within the same genre just grow tired of attempting to read them.
For instance the kid you talk about: if he currently is 20 years old, it means he was around 13 years old when Final Fantasy X was released on Playstation II in 2004. Unless he really hates console rpgs, he should have played it. In that game, if exaggerate, the story was practically everything, its goal was to make the player emotionally attached, which it certainly succeeded with the majority of its fans. When was the last time a mmorpg made the player emotionally attached to its story?
Although I don't know to what extent other older console rpg gamers do it, I clearly remember myself talking with every npc I met when I played "good" console rpgs. I wanted to hear what they had to say and I wanted myself to immerse into the world they portrayed.
If anyone understands the concept of "the journey is more important than the destination", it should be console rpg gamers.
My point exactly if you read your own post. What I was getting at is...most MMO's now are single player instant gratification games because "The game that dare not be mentioned" incorporated mass advertisement via t.v., etc....using movie stars and rock stars etc to draw in the masses (Unecessary unless you are trying to get the attention of a younger generation). Most of which came from the console genre because honestly...do you think there were even half of 11 million (At one time) younger players that played MMO's prior to WoW? I think not. Especially since most complain on forums excessively how things are too slow, I NEED more rewards , I WANT stat boards, I WANT battlegrounds to pwn others in, etc, etc.
Yes, they don't read quest text because most MMO's now have strayed away from meaningful and deep storylines. I have said that before....why? Because they focus more on the action part, because most players in today's generation don't have the patience now to read..or are too lazy. Most want everything NOW NOW NOW.
And that 20 year old I spoke of? He drinks NOS like it is the water of life. Shows up to work with seconds to spare before he is late... NEVER does overtime (Which is currently required and he gets scolded for not doing it), and one night I didn't bring a lunch and went with him to Sheetz to grab some food as he does every night...and his car (Impala) was a trash heap. I mean the inside was FULL of garbage...food wrappers, empty NOS/Gatorade/soda cans, etc, etc. I had to sit in a pile of it, and wade my feet in it. It was ridiculous. If we had been in an even 10 mph fender bender, I'd probably of been killed by flying debris inside the car. =P I'd call that lazy.
And I certainly don't think it's "safe" here to talk badly about console players...hell, not even MMO players. The trolls are many. And I wouldn't talk bad about them if they didn't give me reason to. Plus...it's called freedom fo speech. I have played console games since Atari 2600...I AM (Or was anyways) a console player myself. But that has tapered off because most console games I have encountered lately also lack and meaningful storylines or depth. Most are just full of eye candy and action...just like movies now. No meaningful stories...but it has lots of explosions and other action! /eyeroll
It's certainly not EVERY young player these days. But it IS safe to say the majority. Don't forget, I was once a teenager or a 20 something. I know how they work. I was on the end I bitch about now at one time. Back then though, I didn't realize it. I was young and thought I knew everything (Still don't, but realize that I don't. The other difference =P). However...the internet wasn't NEARLY as big as it is now. Players can make MUCH more of an impact on the outcome of a game, or how it is focused in design, etc now than you could then. THIS is why MMO's now are all fast paced, single player (Practically), instant gratification ridden garbage. Most haven't played MMO's before WoW...and think that is how they should all be or were meant to be designed. Again, If the majority didn't ask for it...it would be designed for whatever other model they wanted that had the money roll in for the company. It's the players faults more than the companies that games lack depth, structure, and meaningful stories and content.
Most "good" mmos are pale in quality compared to even the old "good" rpgs. I suppose the major reason is due to the low development cost and work per hour in comparison with single player games. It is an inherent problems with mmorpgs.
The "instant gratification" that is provided in mmorpgs is very different from the one provided in single player console rpgs. In single player console rpgs, you get a form of "instant gratification" in that you usally have a fun combat system from the second you start the game and that you have a story that is engaging. Most mmorpgs do often not have those two forms of "instant gratification".
Single player console rpgs do not hand out "shiny weapons" easily as a form of instant gratification. Those come more towards the end of the game.
I am assuming though that the majority of the console gamers who try mmorpgs are console rpg gamers. I see no rational reason why a console fps player would ever want to try a mmorpg unless he is also a console rpg gamer.
As for the 20-years-old: then the problem with him is not his choice of gaming, but something in his personality. If he is a console rpg gamer as well, then that's not the cause of his laziness.
I would say that the players who have the "instant gratification mmorpg-specific syndrome" are those who practically only play multiplayer-part of their games in a competitive manner. So this would include all those who skipped campaign-mode in Starcraft II and went straight for multiplayer, all those who merely play fps for the multiplayer mode even though there is a decent single player mode (halo for instance), etc.
However, that group of players does not include the console rpg/adventure/platform/puzzle players.
I find myself on the opposite side of the spectrum. I have a lot of free time, but don't really find any of the current Online RPGs really worthy of that time. They are all about combat and progression. I like combat and progression, but when you take that away from these current games, there is not much left to hang around for. The games are shallow and transparent. I like interacting with other people, but not just for combat or progression. I play games like Fallout 3 or Borderlands for combat and progression. When I log into an Online RPG, I expect more.
It seems like many players don't find certain things worthy of spending time doing. For example, I used to spend a whole session getting from a major city to a camp spot. I would have to log before I got to actually kill anything, but the next time I logged on, I would be ready to roll. I've spent entire sessions trading or chatting with friends and strangers so that the next time I logged on, I could ask them if they wanted to do something instead of spending my entire session looking for a pick-up group. Some sessions are build-up. They make the next play session quicker. But that's not enough for many players. They want to get into random groups and kill stuff right away. I can't begrudge them. I've had sessions where it seems like all my time is wasted because none of my friends were on, or I forgot an important item I need and had to gate back to the city it just took me all day to get away from.
It's still time spent in the online world. It's still time spent playing the game. Some things are not as enjoyable to some people, but that doesn't mean they don't have some merit. Slower progression means that you have the time to meet and interact with other people outside of combat. It gives a sense of reality, because not everything is easy and perfect all the time. Without pain, there is no real pleasure. I don't enjoy wasting my time, but if it makes the good times better, or makes me think of creative ways to use that time, I don't consider it a waste at all. Sure, it's just a video game to most people, but MMORPGs have always been more about the world and the experience, than the action and the accomplishments, to me.
Many players think that the old time sinks were incorporated merely to keep players playing longer so that the companies could make more money. I would argue that, in the beginning, the time sinks were a form of reality. The companies didn't expect to get rich off the players, they wanted to create a world for the players to experience, not just to play games. The time sinks were crucial to community development and immersion, from my perspective. You didn't always get to do what you wanted, so you tried to make the best out of a bad situation and came up with creative ways to get things done within the constraints of the world instead of forcing the world to conform to individual standards of time.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I've only used the "not enough time" excuse when somebody tells me you should lose all your loot + a weeks worth of EXP when you die. I can play slow paced games, I just don't have the time to back track because my internet went down during a boss battle.
Considering there is not a MMORPG out there with anything near that harsh a death penalty - unless we're talking permadeath, which I also haven't seen personally - I guess you've never used the "not enough time" argument even once.
Or, your post was an extreme example of hyperbole.
There are full-loot MMOs, but in those cases - hopefully - the player is smart enough to be carrying all their most valuable possessions on them. In Darkfall, for example, gear is so easy to come by that you can easiy have multiple backup sets in your bank vault. So even if you drop what you have on you, you're moments - not a week - away from being geared up and ready to go again.
As far as XP loss... Not even in Lineage 2 in its earliest days did dying cost you "a week's worth of xp". You lost hours worth, yes. But not a week's worth. If you were losing a week's worth of xp, then you were dying repeatedly and, clearly, doing something very wrong.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I've only used the "not enough time" excuse when somebody tells me you should lose all your loot + a weeks worth of EXP when you die. I can play slow paced games, I just don't have the time to back track because my internet went down during a boss battle.
Considering there is not a MMORPG out there with anything near that harsh a death penalty - unless we're talking permadeath, which I also haven't seen personally - I guess you've never used the "not enough time" argument even once.
Or, your post was an extreme example of hyperbole.
There are full-loot MMOs, but in those cases - hopefully - the player is smart enough to be carrying all their most valuable possessions on them. In Darkfall, for example, gear is so easy to come by that you can easiy have multiple backup sets in your bank vault. So even if you drop what you have on you, you're moments - not a week - away from being geared up and ready to go again.
As far as XP loss... Not even in Lineage 2 in its earliest days did dying cost you "a week's worth of xp". You lost hours worth, yes. But not a week's worth. If you were losing a week's worth of xp, then you were dying repeatedly and, clearly, doing something very wrong.
I guess you didn't notice any of the forum topics compalining about the lack of harsh death penalties, stating that you should lose your loot. Guess you've never played any older MMORPG's either. And FYI, when you only play an hour or two a day because, you know, you have things to do, it can take a week to get back everything you've lost.
Most MMO are shitty games and I don't want to spend time grinding in them when I could be doing something better with my time.
Also don't forget that MMOs are games that are meant to be played with other people. Often times, you end up playing with t he same people over and over again. And that means that you're on their schedule whether you likie it or not. The bigger the group, the more likely that the one of those people has a pavlovian response to the ding. Which means that if you don't show up, or stop playing, or have to ditch to go do something important, you become the asshole. It's never them, or their addiction to PHAT L00TZ. Nope. It's always your fault because you let them down.
In the end, games are entertainment. I want to be entertained. I do not want to join the online equivalent of a cult.
You keep bashing the "console generation" and assume it is completely safe since this is a forum mostly dedicated to computer-related gaming.
Unless the good, and I emphasize "good", console rpgs have drastically changed since the Playstation II era, in the way they care about their own story, there is no reason to believe that the majority of the console rpg-gamers have changed into the way you described them to have.
I don't know how many "good" rpgs you've played from the Playstation II to SNES era, but I assure you that those who played back then, made sure to read every single line of text. A huge part of the charm with the console rpgs back then was the story, the quality of the stories was nowhere near classical litterature, but still enjoyable enough for teenagers who haven't really read or seen much due to their low age.
If anything it is the dumbed down, completely bland and soulless stories in general mmorpgs that have made people within the same genre just grow tired of attempting to read them.
For instance the kid you talk about: if he currently is 20 years old, it means he was around 13 years old when Final Fantasy X was released on Playstation II in 2004. Unless he really hates console rpgs, he should have played it. In that game, if exaggerate, the story was practically everything, its goal was to make the player emotionally attached, which it certainly succeeded with the majority of its fans. When was the last time a mmorpg made the player emotionally attached to its story?
Although I don't know to what extent other older console rpg gamers do it, I clearly remember myself talking with every npc I met when I played "good" console rpgs. I wanted to hear what they had to say and I wanted myself to immerse into the world they portrayed.
If anyone understands the concept of "the journey is more important than the destination", it should be console rpg gamers.
My point exactly if you read your own post. What I was getting at is...most MMO's now are single player instant gratification games because "The game that dare not be mentioned" incorporated mass advertisement via t.v., etc....using movie stars and rock stars etc to draw in the masses (Unecessary unless you are trying to get the attention of a younger generation). Most of which came from the console genre because honestly...do you think there were even half of 11 million (At one time) younger players that played MMO's prior to WoW? I think not. Especially since most complain on forums excessively how things are too slow, I NEED more rewards , I WANT stat boards, I WANT battlegrounds to pwn others in, etc, etc.
Yes, they don't read quest text because most MMO's now have strayed away from meaningful and deep storylines. I have said that before....why? Because they focus more on the action part, because most players in today's generation don't have the patience now to read..or are too lazy. Most want everything NOW NOW NOW.
And that 20 year old I spoke of? He drinks NOS like it is the water of life. Shows up to work with seconds to spare before he is late... NEVER does overtime (Which is currently required and he gets scolded for not doing it), and one night I didn't bring a lunch and went with him to Sheetz to grab some food as he does every night...and his car (Impala) was a trash heap. I mean the inside was FULL of garbage...food wrappers, empty NOS/Gatorade/soda cans, etc, etc. I had to sit in a pile of it, and wade my feet in it. It was ridiculous. If we had been in an even 10 mph fender bender, I'd probably of been killed by flying debris inside the car. =P I'd call that lazy.
And I certainly don't think it's "safe" here to talk badly about console players...hell, not even MMO players. The trolls are many. And I wouldn't talk bad about them if they didn't give me reason to. Plus...it's called freedom fo speech. I have played console games since Atari 2600...I AM (Or was anyways) a console player myself. But that has tapered off because most console games I have encountered lately also lack and meaningful storylines or depth. Most are just full of eye candy and action...just like movies now. No meaningful stories...but it has lots of explosions and other action! /eyeroll
It's certainly not EVERY young player these days. But it IS safe to say the majority. Don't forget, I was once a teenager or a 20 something. I know how they work. I was on the end I bitch about now at one time. Back then though, I didn't realize it. I was young and thought I knew everything (Still don't, but realize that I don't. The other difference =P). However...the internet wasn't NEARLY as big as it is now. Players can make MUCH more of an impact on the outcome of a game, or how it is focused in design, etc now than you could then. THIS is why MMO's now are all fast paced, single player (Practically), instant gratification ridden garbage. Most haven't played MMO's before WoW...and think that is how they should all be or were meant to be designed. Again, If the majority didn't ask for it...it would be designed for whatever other model they wanted that had the money roll in for the company. It's the players faults more than the companies that games lack depth, structure, and meaningful stories and content.
Why are we even bothering pretending that early MMORPGs weren't terrible timesinks?
This isn't an Old vs. New Gamer issue at all. I'm an old gamer and rejected most early MMORPGs for being the terribly inefficient timesinks they were. Bad gameplay; trickled content with lots of repetition.
If you were really an Old Gamer, you spotted this easily. "So I have to pay monthly, deal with a weak combat system, and grind 100 times longer to reach each new bit of content? No thanks."
Blizzard also spotted this, which explains why they chopped off so much of what was wrong with early MMORPGs. Bigsurprise when they hit it big (even before celebrity advertising.)
Also, let's stop pretending Instant Gratification is somehow not the entire point of entertainment products. The purpose of games is entertainment. Gratification. Games which efficiently dish out entertainment do well. Games which hide entertainment behind excessive, unnecessary timesinks don't. End of story. People pay to be entertained, and don't pay to have their time wasted. Again: big surprise.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Why are we even bothering pretending that early MMORPGs weren't terrible timesinks?
This isn't an Old vs. New Gamer issue at all. I'm an old gamer and rejected most early MMORPGs for being the terribly inefficient timesinks they were. Bad gameplay; trickled content with lots of repetition.
If you were really an Old Gamer, you spotted this easily. "So I have to pay monthly, deal with a weak combat system, and grind 100 times longer to reach each new bit of content? No thanks."
Blizzard also spotted this, which explains why they chopped off so much of what was wrong with early MMORPGs. Bigsurprise when they hit it big (even before celebrity advertising.)
Also, let's stop pretending Instant Gratification is somehow not the entire point of entertainment products. The purpose of games is entertainment. Gratification. Games which efficiently dish out entertainment do well. Games which hide entertainment behind excessive, unnecessary timesinks don't. End of story. People pay to be entertained, and don't pay to have their time wasted. Again: big surprise.
Why do people here want to assume old school gamers love time sinks. I didn't like the time sinks. At least not to the extreme level they were in EQ. I am talking about everything else that is missing from the modern MMO's like good communities, grouping features to promote good communities, meaningful quests and crafting systems, better balanced out leveling system so you don't reach cap in a week to a month, more focus on content throughout the game not just the end, more focus on world exploration and world size, etc, etc.
I agree, the time sinks were terrible. But so is today's super fast paced race to cap type of MMO's. Need a happy medium, but sadly...most would whine if they couldn't get to cap and be 1337 in a week. The combat systems in EQ were mind numbingly dull too. You could hit attack and go afk as long as you pulled the mob to a safe spot away from other mobs and train paths. And modern MMO's don't seethe repeditive content? "Kill X amount of Y creatures and bring me Z amount of their left nipples. They are 20 feet away to the west, Happy Hunting!" types are the dominant quest model. BTW...these are time sinks too. Even though you can solo them in 1/10th the time of old MMO's. There are just more of them that require less time rather than less quests that require more time.
Instant gratification is the point of entertainment products, of course. But again, NOT to the sheer amounts found in modern MMO's. THAT is what console games are for and why they are different genre's....or were anyways.
Why do people here want to assume old school gamers love time sinks. I didn't like the time sinks. At least not to the extreme level they were in EQ. I am talking about everything else that is missing from the modern MMO's like good communities, grouping features to promote good communities, meaningful quests and crafting systems, better balanced out leveling system so you don't reach cap in a week to a month, more focus on content throughout the game not just the end, more focus on world exploration and world size, etc, etc.
I agree, the time sinks were terrible. But so is today's super fast paced race to cap type of MMO's. Need a happy medium, but sadly...most would whine if they couldn't get to cap and be 1337 in a week. The combat systems in EQ were mind numbingly dull too. You could hit attack and go afk as long as you pulled the mob to a safe spot away from other mobs and train paths. And modern MMO's don't seethe repeditive content? "Kill X amount of Y creatures and bring me Z amount of their left nipples. They are 20 feet away to the west, Happy Hunting!" types are the dominant quest model. BTW...these are time sinks too. Even though you can solo them in 1/10th the time of old MMO's. There are just more of them that require less time rather than less quests that require more time.
Instant gratification is the point of entertainment products, of course. But again, NOT to the sheer amounts found in modern MMO's. THAT is what console games are for and why they are different genre's....or were anyways.
Well I'm not sure I'd agree with some of those things:
Communities: When you imply current MMORPGs don't have good communities, it's a lot like admitting you're bad at finding guilds. Guilds *are* the community in most games (because let's face it, we're all going to call everyone outside our Monkeysphere jerks, noobs, and trolls because our brains are inferior like that.) This limitation of our minds is responsible for perceptions about community quality more than anything else. (Although you do have a few genuine mistakes being made: like cross-server dungeons without cross-server friending/chat/etc)
'Meaningful quests': sounds a little BS. I'm curious what game you consider to have superior quest design and reward structure (both of which add meaning) to WOW's quests.
Quick Leveling: Calling quick leveling poorly balanced and labelling them "race to cap" MMOs really paints a rather obsessive view of the role of level in MMORPGs. In games with quick leveling, leveling is merely the first step of the journey and not the end.
Content throughout the game: Again, content can't actually exist at the "end". If it does, it's not the end.
Crafting/exploration: It's fair to want more/deeper versions of these in games.
Nobody said modern MMORPGs don't have repetitive content. But dungeon+variedMobs+bosses is incrementally superior to dungeon+variedMobs. (And this is being overly kind to early MMORPGs, since many of them lacked mob variety and had all these mobs which played out identically.)
As for instant gratification, there is no magical "limit" to how much entertainment a product can provide. If a game provides more fun, it's better and it will sell better. In games with recurring fees, developer greed is the force most interested in diluting content (reducing instant gratification in order to keep players playing longer.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Comments
I have all the time in the world, but I still won't raid cause it's F"ING LAME!
this.
You could have all the content in the world, but if people arent hearing that DING every hour, they rage and demand more rewards for less work.
I have seen many people quit EVE due to the fact that they werent earning a billion isk a week. "This is stupid! everything so expensive! i cant compete with a freighter!" (hey numbnuts, those freighters started out in frigates too!). an hour of good market research, and trade routes are easily figured out. (but that requires doing actual work. something most people avoid today)
Person with a life: "I don't have enough time any more."
Person who spends all their time gaming: "Too bad, I do, so I don't care."
Why do games reward people for investing their time unwisely, anyhow?
Would you really pay 60 bucks for something you're not gonna spend much time with? Should it really just be a push of one button and have the whole experience over with?
People pay a premium for quality games that'll deliver quality entertainment.
I spent 60 dollars on Child of Eden. Awesome game that I finished in 5 hours.
I spent 60 dollars on Vanquish. Another awesome game that I finished in 10. etc
Length rarely has anything to do with it. If it did, all that gets sold are grindy MMOs which isn't the case.
Despite the negativity it gets from this community, WoW actually does really well in getting rid of the 'not fun' aspect of your traditional MMOs.
'I only have 2 hours to play a game, I want those 2 hours to be good'. I don't know why this statement is an issue?
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I believe you misunderstood the use of the phrase. Often you hear "I don't have enough time anymore" in regards to things like raids. Where you have to set aside a block of time sometimes in excess of four hours. That was fine when the only responsibility we had was middle school and high school, but as college, jobs and families come into the picture finding 4 uninterrupted hours is much more difficult.
It's not that there is some massive change in the amount of time availible, its that uninterrupted time that is growing scarce.
You keep bashing the "console generation" and assume it is completely safe since this is a forum mostly dedicated to computer-related gaming.
Unless the good, and I emphasize "good", console rpgs have drastically changed since the Playstation II era, in the way they care about their own story, there is no reason to believe that the majority of the console rpg-gamers have changed into the way you described them to have.
I don't know how many "good" rpgs you've played from the Playstation II to SNES era, but I assure you that those who played back then, made sure to read every single line of text. A huge part of the charm with the console rpgs back then was the story, the quality of the stories was nowhere near classical litterature, but still enjoyable enough for teenagers who haven't really read or seen much due to their low age.
If anything it is the dumbed down, completely bland and soulless stories in general mmorpgs that have made people within the same genre just grow tired of attempting to read them.
For instance the kid you talk about: if he currently is 20 years old, it means he was around 13 years old when Final Fantasy X was released on Playstation II in 2004. Unless he really hates console rpgs, he should have played it. In that game, if exaggerate, the story was practically everything, its goal was to make the player emotionally attached, which it certainly succeeded with the majority of its fans. When was the last time a mmorpg made the player emotionally attached to its story?
Although I don't know to what extent other older console rpg gamers do it, I clearly remember myself talking with every npc I met when I played "good" console rpgs. I wanted to hear what they had to say and I wanted myself to immerse into the world they portrayed.
If anyone understands the concept of "the journey is more important than the destination", it should be console rpg gamers.
its not because this forum is "safe" but because its true
I dont see how anyone can consider 4 hours of gameplay for $60 a good Return on Investment (mirrors edge, COD, ODST, heavenly sword, etc).
And RPGs today are nothing but interactive movies. *Press X to advance the next scene* or *movie pauses, Press X make a good choice, or Triangle to make a bad choice*
RPGs "back in my time" demanded that you use more than 1% of your brain power. You filled in the blanks, resulting in you caring much more for the characters and story.
video killed the radio star?
You keep on talking about Return on Investment but how can you have ROI on an entertainment form?
You can buy 'Angry Birds' for a dollar and be entertained for hours.
According to your 'ROI' logic, Angry Birds must be Game of the Year.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
My point exactly if you read your own post. What I was getting at is...most MMO's now are single player instant gratification games because "The game that dare not be mentioned" incorporated mass advertisement via t.v., etc....using movie stars and rock stars etc to draw in the masses (Unecessary unless you are trying to get the attention of a younger generation). Most of which came from the console genre because honestly...do you think there were even half of 11 million (At one time) younger players that played MMO's prior to WoW? I think not. Especially since most complain on forums excessively how things are too slow, I NEED more rewards , I WANT stat boards, I WANT battlegrounds to pwn others in, etc, etc.
Yes, they don't read quest text because most MMO's now have strayed away from meaningful and deep storylines. I have said that before....why? Because they focus more on the action part, because most players in today's generation don't have the patience now to read..or are too lazy. Most want everything NOW NOW NOW.
And that 20 year old I spoke of? He drinks NOS like it is the water of life. Shows up to work with seconds to spare before he is late... NEVER does overtime (Which is currently required and he gets scolded for not doing it), and one night I didn't bring a lunch and went with him to Sheetz to grab some food as he does every night...and his car (Impala) was a trash heap. I mean the inside was FULL of garbage...food wrappers, empty NOS/Gatorade/soda cans, etc, etc. I had to sit in a pile of it, and wade my feet in it. It was ridiculous. If we had been in an even 10 mph fender bender, I'd probably of been killed by flying debris inside the car. =P I'd call that lazy.
And I certainly don't think it's "safe" here to talk badly about console players...hell, not even MMO players. The trolls are many. And I wouldn't talk bad about them if they didn't give me reason to. Plus...it's called freedom fo speech. I have played console games since Atari 2600...I AM (Or was anyways) a console player myself. But that has tapered off because most console games I have encountered lately also lack and meaningful storylines or depth. Most are just full of eye candy and action...just like movies now. No meaningful stories...but it has lots of explosions and other action! /eyeroll
It's certainly not EVERY young player these days. But it IS safe to say the majority. Don't forget, I was once a teenager or a 20 something. I know how they work. I was on the end I bitch about now at one time. Back then though, I didn't realize it. I was young and thought I knew everything (Still don't, but realize that I don't. The other difference =P). However...the internet wasn't NEARLY as big as it is now. Players can make MUCH more of an impact on the outcome of a game, or how it is focused in design, etc now than you could then. THIS is why MMO's now are all fast paced, single player (Practically), instant gratification ridden garbage. Most haven't played MMO's before WoW...and think that is how they should all be or were meant to be designed. Again, If the majority didn't ask for it...it would be designed for whatever other model they wanted that had the money roll in for the company. It's the players faults more than the companies that games lack depth, structure, and meaningful stories and content.
Take any good game/puzzle eg Rubik's Cube and ppl will find the time (hours!) to play if they are engaged by it or 0. Hrs if they are not. It seems MMOs are in many ways, large games with a concrete number of hours to them instead of the "infinite possibilities of an ever-changing persistent world" that the expectation of gamers (self included) might have for this genre is one disconnect especially applicable here?
I tend to enjoy the Mario Kart, Bomberman, Goldeneye, Super Smash Bros. games the most as these small gems invariably lead to loads of sociable fun and replayable outcomes. Alternatively if a game has deep strategy to learn eg Chess, Go etc then these last for a long time as well. If mmorpgs can combine the short term repeatability with the long term depth there's a game everyone's going to have time to spare for?
But the grind/level-up treadmill seems to make a lot of money and waste a lot of players time is hard to avoid finding most games built this way and I could easily fit in the above, the missing:
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
3 years in to playing an MMO hardcore way back when, I got up took a look in the mirror and went...Holy shit! what happaned to me, where did those years of my life go? Why did i choose to waste that many years trying to be the best at a kids video game?!.
So after sometime, I got off the dam treadmill and started making some calls to friends i had alienated due to my online play time. We got together went camping and ever since then i wont waste my life being hardcore ever again. I don't want to wake uip some day and look in that mirror and have grey hair saying the same words over and over again. when your a teen you have the time to waste your life when you get older you start running out of time. so that swhat really happened with hardecore casual debate.
People try to use the excuse that job/kids and that may be true, but watching your self age when you waste years playing a game and to have nothing to show for it at the end is almost the saddest thing in the world. it just sad.
But when your young it's not so bad.
This..^
Seeing mates still in their work gear Sunday afternoon cause they're been gaming all weekend or seeing a house with nothing in it bar a bed and a laptop. What for? Another piece of "shiny"?
I never "End Gamed" to start with and once I saw I was in a Skinner Box I got out. I can play BF:BC2 for any amount of time and I'm still having fun. WoW/etc its just a tedious grind, the action is slow paced and the average World mob is as dangerous as a poodle.
A hobby is great until it takes over everything else. I don't recommend MMO's to anyone cause the damage they can do.
lol, It's entertaining when someone does a pure train of thought.....hahaha....it smells like burnt hair.....window is open, cooling down out don't have to run AC all the time anymore, but I smell burnt hair, just a light amount of it....
One of his previous points was basically that console gamers are too lazy to read quest texts. Yet, which types of console gamers go on to try mmorpgs? Most likely console rpg-players. Console rpgs have for a long time had a strong focus on the story. Why would players who are accustomed to read the story in their console rpgs, suddenly become too lazy to read the ones in mmorpgs? It makes no sense. However, in this forum, people are less likely to have extensive first-hand knowledge about how console rpgs have been throughout the years and whether or not console rpg-gamers are too lazy to read quest texts.
On another note: why is it wrong if some rpgs become more alike interactive movies? Movies can be very entertaining, provoking, philosophical and inspiring. If you want an intellectual challenge, why would you waste your time searching for it in a game, when you can find difficult and more meaningful challenging problems in economy and natural sciences?
Furthermore, I see nothing wrong with a game that focuses on building an emotional rollercoaster rather than being difficult to "beat". Something being intellectually challenging is not a necessary and sometimes not even a sufficient condition for something to be entertaining. We are humans after all; we have emotions and empathy (at least of most of us), on which you can build games.
Sure, you can create your own self-made stories for your characters in a rpg, but why not just write a book then? There is nothing wrong with enjoying a game in which you just play through a story an author has written, while being presented a certain degree of freedom in how you go through that story.
As for the money-issue: there are people who are prepared to pay for quality or for unique experiences even though they may be short-lived. While I do not know whether or not the quality of the games you described would be worth 40 dollars in my eyes, I do know that I am willing to accept far higher prices for other short-term "events" such as eating at a fine dining restaurant or attending a musical concert.
Most "good" mmos are pale in quality compared to even the old "good" rpgs. I suppose the major reason is due to the low development cost and work per hour in comparison with single player games. It is an inherent problems with mmorpgs.
The "instant gratification" that is provided in mmorpgs is very different from the one provided in single player console rpgs. In single player console rpgs, you get a form of "instant gratification" in that you usally have a fun combat system from the second you start the game and that you have a story that is engaging. Most mmorpgs do often not have those two forms of "instant gratification".
Single player console rpgs do not hand out "shiny weapons" easily as a form of instant gratification. Those come more towards the end of the game.
I am assuming though that the majority of the console gamers who try mmorpgs are console rpg gamers. I see no rational reason why a console fps player would ever want to try a mmorpg unless he is also a console rpg gamer.
As for the 20-years-old: then the problem with him is not his choice of gaming, but something in his personality. If he is a console rpg gamer as well, then that's not the cause of his laziness.
I would say that the players who have the "instant gratification mmorpg-specific syndrome" are those who practically only play multiplayer-part of their games in a competitive manner. So this would include all those who skipped campaign-mode in Starcraft II and went straight for multiplayer, all those who merely play fps for the multiplayer mode even though there is a decent single player mode (halo for instance), etc.
However, that group of players does not include the console rpg/adventure/platform/puzzle players.
I am sure some console rpg players try MMO's...but I have seen a LOT of console FPS players in MMO's too...simply for the PvP aspect of many of them.
I find myself on the opposite side of the spectrum. I have a lot of free time, but don't really find any of the current Online RPGs really worthy of that time. They are all about combat and progression. I like combat and progression, but when you take that away from these current games, there is not much left to hang around for. The games are shallow and transparent. I like interacting with other people, but not just for combat or progression. I play games like Fallout 3 or Borderlands for combat and progression. When I log into an Online RPG, I expect more.
It seems like many players don't find certain things worthy of spending time doing. For example, I used to spend a whole session getting from a major city to a camp spot. I would have to log before I got to actually kill anything, but the next time I logged on, I would be ready to roll. I've spent entire sessions trading or chatting with friends and strangers so that the next time I logged on, I could ask them if they wanted to do something instead of spending my entire session looking for a pick-up group. Some sessions are build-up. They make the next play session quicker. But that's not enough for many players. They want to get into random groups and kill stuff right away. I can't begrudge them. I've had sessions where it seems like all my time is wasted because none of my friends were on, or I forgot an important item I need and had to gate back to the city it just took me all day to get away from.
It's still time spent in the online world. It's still time spent playing the game. Some things are not as enjoyable to some people, but that doesn't mean they don't have some merit. Slower progression means that you have the time to meet and interact with other people outside of combat. It gives a sense of reality, because not everything is easy and perfect all the time. Without pain, there is no real pleasure. I don't enjoy wasting my time, but if it makes the good times better, or makes me think of creative ways to use that time, I don't consider it a waste at all. Sure, it's just a video game to most people, but MMORPGs have always been more about the world and the experience, than the action and the accomplishments, to me.
Many players think that the old time sinks were incorporated merely to keep players playing longer so that the companies could make more money. I would argue that, in the beginning, the time sinks were a form of reality. The companies didn't expect to get rich off the players, they wanted to create a world for the players to experience, not just to play games. The time sinks were crucial to community development and immersion, from my perspective. You didn't always get to do what you wanted, so you tried to make the best out of a bad situation and came up with creative ways to get things done within the constraints of the world instead of forcing the world to conform to individual standards of time.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Considering there is not a MMORPG out there with anything near that harsh a death penalty - unless we're talking permadeath, which I also haven't seen personally - I guess you've never used the "not enough time" argument even once.
Or, your post was an extreme example of hyperbole.
There are full-loot MMOs, but in those cases - hopefully - the player is smart enough to be carrying all their most valuable possessions on them. In Darkfall, for example, gear is so easy to come by that you can easiy have multiple backup sets in your bank vault. So even if you drop what you have on you, you're moments - not a week - away from being geared up and ready to go again.
As far as XP loss... Not even in Lineage 2 in its earliest days did dying cost you "a week's worth of xp". You lost hours worth, yes. But not a week's worth. If you were losing a week's worth of xp, then you were dying repeatedly and, clearly, doing something very wrong.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I guess you didn't notice any of the forum topics compalining about the lack of harsh death penalties, stating that you should lose your loot. Guess you've never played any older MMORPG's either. And FYI, when you only play an hour or two a day because, you know, you have things to do, it can take a week to get back everything you've lost.
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Most MMO are shitty games and I don't want to spend time grinding in them when I could be doing something better with my time.
Also don't forget that MMOs are games that are meant to be played with other people. Often times, you end up playing with t he same people over and over again. And that means that you're on their schedule whether you likie it or not. The bigger the group, the more likely that the one of those people has a pavlovian response to the ding. Which means that if you don't show up, or stop playing, or have to ditch to go do something important, you become the asshole. It's never them, or their addiction to PHAT L00TZ. Nope. It's always your fault because you let them down.
In the end, games are entertainment. I want to be entertained. I do not want to join the online equivalent of a cult.
I don't have time, to see clearly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8GMFkc3iSA
Why are we even bothering pretending that early MMORPGs weren't terrible timesinks?
This isn't an Old vs. New Gamer issue at all. I'm an old gamer and rejected most early MMORPGs for being the terribly inefficient timesinks they were. Bad gameplay; trickled content with lots of repetition.
If you were really an Old Gamer, you spotted this easily. "So I have to pay monthly, deal with a weak combat system, and grind 100 times longer to reach each new bit of content? No thanks."
Blizzard also spotted this, which explains why they chopped off so much of what was wrong with early MMORPGs. Big surprise when they hit it big (even before celebrity advertising.)
Also, let's stop pretending Instant Gratification is somehow not the entire point of entertainment products. The purpose of games is entertainment. Gratification. Games which efficiently dish out entertainment do well. Games which hide entertainment behind excessive, unnecessary timesinks don't. End of story. People pay to be entertained, and don't pay to have their time wasted. Again: big surprise.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Why do people here want to assume old school gamers love time sinks. I didn't like the time sinks. At least not to the extreme level they were in EQ. I am talking about everything else that is missing from the modern MMO's like good communities, grouping features to promote good communities, meaningful quests and crafting systems, better balanced out leveling system so you don't reach cap in a week to a month, more focus on content throughout the game not just the end, more focus on world exploration and world size, etc, etc.
I agree, the time sinks were terrible. But so is today's super fast paced race to cap type of MMO's. Need a happy medium, but sadly...most would whine if they couldn't get to cap and be 1337 in a week. The combat systems in EQ were mind numbingly dull too. You could hit attack and go afk as long as you pulled the mob to a safe spot away from other mobs and train paths. And modern MMO's don't seethe repeditive content? "Kill X amount of Y creatures and bring me Z amount of their left nipples. They are 20 feet away to the west, Happy Hunting!" types are the dominant quest model. BTW...these are time sinks too. Even though you can solo them in 1/10th the time of old MMO's. There are just more of them that require less time rather than less quests that require more time.
Instant gratification is the point of entertainment products, of course. But again, NOT to the sheer amounts found in modern MMO's. THAT is what console games are for and why they are different genre's....or were anyways.
Well I'm not sure I'd agree with some of those things:
Communities: When you imply current MMORPGs don't have good communities, it's a lot like admitting you're bad at finding guilds. Guilds *are* the community in most games (because let's face it, we're all going to call everyone outside our Monkeysphere jerks, noobs, and trolls because our brains are inferior like that.) This limitation of our minds is responsible for perceptions about community quality more than anything else. (Although you do have a few genuine mistakes being made: like cross-server dungeons without cross-server friending/chat/etc)
'Meaningful quests': sounds a little BS. I'm curious what game you consider to have superior quest design and reward structure (both of which add meaning) to WOW's quests.
Quick Leveling: Calling quick leveling poorly balanced and labelling them "race to cap" MMOs really paints a rather obsessive view of the role of level in MMORPGs. In games with quick leveling, leveling is merely the first step of the journey and not the end.
Content throughout the game: Again, content can't actually exist at the "end". If it does, it's not the end.
Crafting/exploration: It's fair to want more/deeper versions of these in games.
Nobody said modern MMORPGs don't have repetitive content. But dungeon+variedMobs+bosses is incrementally superior to dungeon+variedMobs. (And this is being overly kind to early MMORPGs, since many of them lacked mob variety and had all these mobs which played out identically.)
As for instant gratification, there is no magical "limit" to how much entertainment a product can provide. If a game provides more fun, it's better and it will sell better. In games with recurring fees, developer greed is the force most interested in diluting content (reducing instant gratification in order to keep players playing longer.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver