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[Poll] Human Naytheists: Should it be an option?

13

Comments

  • TekaelonTekaelon Brookhaven, MSPosts: 531Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Diovidius

    Originally posted by Tekaelon


    Originally posted by Diovidius


    Originally posted by Tekaelon

    Regardless of what you choose to call the gods of GW2,  they obviously exist on a higher level of life.

    Criteria for godhood

    Total or partial omnicience (having very great or seemingly unlimited knowledge )

    Total or parial omnipreence (present in all places at the same time)

    Divine willl (A determined path for life )

    Divine power (Focus of power through followers)

    All 6 deities from the original guild wars lore demonstrated each aspect of the above. This is unlike the Marsat who were just a powerful race of beings who tried to dominate the world. In fact there downfall was propagated by the GW gods.

    Why are those criteria for godhood? What is godhood exactly? What makes you say the human gods have total or partial omniscience and omniprescence? How is the power of the human gods tied to their followers? And what do you mean by 'a determined path for life'? You say those aspects are demonstrated in lore, demonstrate them. And in such a way that it can't be applied to powerful spellcasters.

    Well I did leave out one very important aspect of godhood, creation. It is assumed that any being with a designation of god created the world and its inhabitance. Just as in mythology the gods created life,  then provide guidence to faciliate growth and prosperity. It is the nature of a god to create, then foster that creation. Omniscience is demonstrated in that a plan of salvation was provided for the people of Tyria well before they were even aware of the threat. Ascension, infusion, and unnatural ability were all provided to allow the gods creation to defeat the evil that threatened them, and still not break the mandate of individual free will and self determination. That provision of a path to salvation demonstrates omnipresence, seeing things on a greater depth of scope and understanding.

    Divine power directly related to the names of skills from the original guild wars, for example Dwayna's Kiss, and Balthazar Aura. A monk is a servant of Dwayna/Balthazar. Their power was channeled directly from their gods, as it is in all games with this kind of lore. All magical classes except elementalist, elemental magic, conveyed some aspect of a peticular god. Granted you could argue that these abilities are inate attributes to the world, but that brings us full circle back to the question of creation.

    Ultimately lore should not have to provide fringe gameplay elements. That is like providing a scientific explaination for using magic. When I read a book it never occurs to me to buck the authors established lore because it does not suite my personal beliefs or lack of belief. I simply ingrose myself in the setting and enjoy the ride.

    Personally I would rather than see the dev team spend more time on WvW. :) 

    A couple of mistakes. The gods did not create Tyria, nor did they create humanity. They only found Tyria and brought humanity there. What you cite as omniscience is just 'more knowledge than others', knowledge that Glint also had for example.

    What we know about magic goes against your monk example. All magic is just there in the world, filtered by the bloodstones. Human Monks may be pious and may call the magic they use prayers and may name specific spells after the gods but the actual magic does not come from the gods. Why else would there be charr monks or mursaat monks or even non-sentient monks? A part of the magic that exists in the world may originally come from the gods but after that gift they no longer controlled magic. Besides there was magic before the gods gave magic to the world (as can been seen from the mursaat, the elder dragons and the ritualist).

    I stand corrected on GW lore. :) Regardless I suppose my point is about an ordering of events guided by a higher power. Magic is a bit confusing to me as a force that can perform unatural effects on the natural world. That's why its magic I suppose. :)

  • Dream_ChaserDream_Chaser BGPosts: 1,043Member

    I think I've been misunderstood by some and demonised (thanks, Exilor) by others, here.

    It's easy to demonise someone who shares an opposing opinion rather than dealing with the opinion, isn't it? Sigh. Okay, anyway... some of you understood what I was getting at.

    Without demonising me, can we at least acknowledge the following?



    • In the intro, the human you play wails on aout the missing gods and how they still believe in them.


    • In the biography, you must choose to havee been blessed by a particular god.


    Both of these things strongly imply that humans are forced to have faith in the gods in their personal storyline. What I was saying is that it's my position that if a person wants to have a personal storyline as a human that precludes the gods, then they should have that option. Or if it must include the gods, then it should include the option to spurn them. My worry is that ArenaNet aren't considering this choice for human characters.


     


    All I was positing is that there should be the option for people to choose. If you want to be faithful or if you want to e a "Naytheist."


     


    What is a Naytheist? Well, Diovidius got this. It's someone who understands that powerful beings exist, but that powerful beings exist everywhere, and that anyone stronger than oneself is a powerful being. But that doesn't mean that we should bow down to them, or worship them, or accept their word as law. It doesn't mean that we should accept them as superior beings, either, but rather simply more powerful. And it doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to become more powerful by our own merits in order to challenge them.


     


    I believe that these should be options available to human characters.


     


    With it laid out so plainly I don't see how anyone could demonise me for thinking this, but hey, I'm sure some will try.

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon

    I think this is kind of a cool idea. It makes sense in context of the lore. If this was to be done, though, they'd need some type of elite skill to make up for it. I don't think players would enjoy forsaking the gods, and then finding out they don't have a racial elite as a result of this.

  • DiovidiusDiovidius GoudaPosts: 1,025Member

    Originally posted by Exilor

    Originally posted by Diovidius


    Originally posted by Exilor


    Originally posted by Diovidius


    Originally posted by Exilor


    Originally posted by Diovidius


    Originally posted by Exilor

    It doesn't matter. Gods in a work of fiction don't have to conform to his or your criteria. ArenaNet made the gods of Tyria, and unless they reveal that it was a lie all along people can only change that in their own personal canon.

    It does matter. Anet never stated the human gods are gods from an objective point of view, Anet only stated that the humans view them as gods (and a few other races).

    http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/races/human/

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods_of_tyria

    http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gods_of_Tyria

    Look for your statement that says that "humans view them as gods". The phrase itself insinuates that they are not. But it doesn't say that, anywhere. They are described as the gods of the humans, the group of dieties worshipped by humans. Not powerful beings which humans believe to be gods.

    You do know that pretty much everything we know about the gods either comes from things said or written by humans or what was said by the gods (or their avatars) themselves right? Lore articles, dialogue, timelines it's all from a human point of view, GW1 in it's entirety was a human thing. As Ghosts of Ascalon shows in it's tale of the Foefire it matters a great deal who tells the story.

    And do you consider the Charr to be wrong in their assumption of the non-divinity of the gods? Grenth defeated a god without being a god himself. The players in GW1 defeated a god without being gods themselves (although it was a chained and weakened god and the players were blessed by other gods). Abbadon presumebly defeated a god without being a god himself. The Elder Dragons rival the power of the gods. In fact, Abbadon thought he could harm the other gods by bringing mortals (margonites) to their realm (a similar thing to what Dhuum and Menzies are doing in GW1).

    1. The wikis and the official website aren't quotes from human npcs.

    2. The charr do believe the human gods are gods. They want them destroyed anyway.

    3. Again, osiris in egyptian mythology was killed. Not all religions, in works of fiction or otherwise, have to be abrahamic-like just because it's more prevalent in our cultures.

    1. Read again, I wasn't just talking about quotes.

    2. So the charr do not consider them worthy of worship and think they can kill them but still view them as gods? As far as I know the charr always talk about the gods as the 'human gods' just like we can talk about a 'greek gods' without believing said gods exist.

    3. If your definition of gods stretches that far in a fantasy world where mortals can bend the very fabric of space (Lord Odran for example), then again I ask, what is the difference between powerful spellcasters and gods?

    1. I can't read what you didn't write. Please do.

    2.  Yes they do, precisely as you said. And they do believe the tyrian gods exist. That's what drove them to worship the titans, that they didn't have gods to call their own and humans did. Then, after the the fall of the shaman caste, they swore to never worship anyone again.

    3. I don't have to provide the diference. The very magic Lord Odran wielded was a gift from the gods, handed by Abaddon 1 year before the exile of the gods. The sentient races of tyria can only use magic because the gods felt inclined to give it to them.

    1. I wrote: You do know that pretty much everything we know about the gods either comes from things said or written by humans or what was said by the gods (or their avatars) themselves right? Lore articles, dialogue, timelines it's all from a human point of view, GW1 in it's entirety was a human thing. As Ghosts of Ascalon shows in it's tale of the Foefire it matters a great deal who tells the story.

    2. And how is believing in their existance and their power the same as believing that they are gods?

    3. Then explain ritualist magic or mursaat magic (and Elder Dragon magic), both existed before the gift of magic .

  • Grigor_BronGrigor_Bron Murfreesborro, TNPosts: 129Member

    Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

    I think I've been misunderstood by some and demonised (thanks, Exilor) by others, here.

    It's easy to demonise someone who shares an opposing opinion rather than dealing with the opinion, isn't it? Sigh. Okay, anyway... some of you understood what I was getting at.

    Without demonising me, can we at least acknowledge the following?



    • In the intro, the human you play wails on aout the missing gods and how they still believe in them.


    • In the biography, you must choose to havee been blessed by a particular god.


    Both of these things strongly imply that humans are forced to have faith in the gods in their personal storyline. What I was saying is that it's my position that if a person wants to have a personal storyline as a human that precludes the gods, then they should have that option. Or if it must include the gods, then it should include the option to spurn them. My worry is that ArenaNet aren't considering this choice for human characters.


     


    All I was positing is that there should be the option for people to choose. If you want to be faithful or if you want to e a "Naytheist."


     


    What is a Naytheist? Well, Diovidius got this. It's someone who understands that powerful beings exist, but that powerful beings exist everywhere, and that anyone stronger than oneself is a powerful being. But that doesn't mean that we should bow down to them, or worship them, or accept their word as law. It doesn't mean that we should accept them as superior beings, either, but rather simply more powerful. And it doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to become more powerful by our own merits in order to challenge them.


     


    I believe that these should be options available to human characters.


     


    With it laid out so plainly I don't see how anyone could demonise me for thinking this, but hey, I'm sure some will try.

    My main concern is how closely tied the gods are to the human cultural identity. All of the human racial abilities are linked to the gods. Also, it seems that by this logic, charr should be allowed to worship the human gods, the asura should be allowed to venerate nature spirits, and the norn should be able to tap into the eternal alchemy. These and all possible related combinations should be made available by the same argument. So, application of your philosophy would be great in any other game, but I just can't see it working in this one.

  • AblestronAblestron Portland, ORPosts: 333Member

    Its pretty much impossible to deny that the Gods of the humans excist in the game world. Even the other races admit to their excistance. To deny that the Gods excist is like denying your entire heritage (which is deeply rooted for the humans), but its good to note that there are a fair number of humans who beleive the Gods have abandoned them in the last 250 years; the proof of this was in human week in which they described the current culture of the humans. While the number of humans who still have faith that the Gods are with them are in the majority, more and more and starting to feel frustrated with the current silence of the Gods and their servents. 

  • ExilorExilor Las Palmas de Gran CanariaPosts: 391Member

    Originally posted by Diovidius

    Originally posted by Exilor


    Originally posted by Diovidius


    Originally posted by Exilor


    Originally posted by Diovidius


    Originally posted by Exilor


    Originally posted by Diovidius


    Originally posted by Exilor

    It doesn't matter. Gods in a work of fiction don't have to conform to his or your criteria. ArenaNet made the gods of Tyria, and unless they reveal that it was a lie all along people can only change that in their own personal canon.

    It does matter. Anet never stated the human gods are gods from an objective point of view, Anet only stated that the humans view them as gods (and a few other races).

    http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/races/human/

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods_of_tyria

    http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gods_of_Tyria

    Look for your statement that says that "humans view them as gods". The phrase itself insinuates that they are not. But it doesn't say that, anywhere. They are described as the gods of the humans, the group of dieties worshipped by humans. Not powerful beings which humans believe to be gods.

    You do know that pretty much everything we know about the gods either comes from things said or written by humans or what was said by the gods (or their avatars) themselves right? Lore articles, dialogue, timelines it's all from a human point of view, GW1 in it's entirety was a human thing. As Ghosts of Ascalon shows in it's tale of the Foefire it matters a great deal who tells the story.

    And do you consider the Charr to be wrong in their assumption of the non-divinity of the gods? Grenth defeated a god without being a god himself. The players in GW1 defeated a god without being gods themselves (although it was a chained and weakened god and the players were blessed by other gods). Abbadon presumebly defeated a god without being a god himself. The Elder Dragons rival the power of the gods. In fact, Abbadon thought he could harm the other gods by bringing mortals (margonites) to their realm (a similar thing to what Dhuum and Menzies are doing in GW1).

    1. The wikis and the official website aren't quotes from human npcs.

    2. The charr do believe the human gods are gods. They want them destroyed anyway.

    3. Again, osiris in egyptian mythology was killed. Not all religions, in works of fiction or otherwise, have to be abrahamic-like just because it's more prevalent in our cultures.

    1. Read again, I wasn't just talking about quotes.

    2. So the charr do not consider them worthy of worship and think they can kill them but still view them as gods? As far as I know the charr always talk about the gods as the 'human gods' just like we can talk about a 'greek gods' without believing said gods exist.

    3. If your definition of gods stretches that far in a fantasy world where mortals can bend the very fabric of space (Lord Odran for example), then again I ask, what is the difference between powerful spellcasters and gods?

    1. I can't read what you didn't write. Please do.

    2.  Yes they do, precisely as you said. And they do believe the tyrian gods exist. That's what drove them to worship the titans, that they didn't have gods to call their own and humans did. Then, after the the fall of the shaman caste, they swore to never worship anyone again.

    3. I don't have to provide the diference. The very magic Lord Odran wielded was a gift from the gods, handed by Abaddon 1 year before the exile of the gods. The sentient races of tyria can only use magic because the gods felt inclined to give it to them.

    1. I wrote: You do know that pretty much everything we know about the gods either comes from things said or written by humans or what was said by the gods (or their avatars) themselves right? Lore articles, dialogue, timelines it's all from a human point of view, GW1 in it's entirety was a human thing. As Ghosts of Ascalon shows in it's tale of the Foefire it matters a great deal who tells the story.

    2. And how is believing in their existance and their power the same as believing that they are gods?

    3. Then explain ritualist magic or mursaat magic (and Elder Dragon magic), both existed before the gift of magic .

    Read the history section http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods_of_tyria

    1. The human point of view is that the gods created tyria and humans themselves. Out of the game, in the official wiki, the gods are revealed to not have created tyria, they simply brought humanity there from some other world. The wiki is not the human point of view. It's not some human story, the wiki tells of humanity's version and the actual reality of the game. And since it's the official wiki, it's canon

    In the same wiki, the article concerning the word itself (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Tyria_(world)) it's not said that the gods created it, because they actually didn't. The wiki is not humanity's mouthpiece, it's objective, canon information about the game world. Still, they are referred to as gods.They're a category of being called gods. They might not be bible gods, they're Guild Wars gods.

     

    2. The Charr saw unfair that humans had gods, who they blamed for their defeat at human hands. So they sought gods of their own so that they might also had that advantage. The shaman caste found a titan in a volcano and brought it to be worshipped as a god by the other charr. In turn, the titans provided them with the power to cause the Searing.

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Charr

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Titan

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shaman_caste

    I do not know if the shamans themselves thought the titans to be gods, but the rest of the charr (except bathea havocbringer who refused to worship them and was executed) believed so.

    Basically: Oh the humans have gods and that's why they defeated us. Let us find gods of our own. Great, now we have gods, let's take back our land.

    They do believe the tyrian gods to be really gods. That doesn't mean they worship them or anything, in fact they want to destroy them (and become gods themselves? I didn't think about that but they might like the idea...). They refused to bow to anyone, god or otherwise.

     

    3. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Magic

    "Despite the fact that magic was not given to the races of Tyria on a whole until just before the Exodus, there are cases where magic was used before such time. Those cases are based on two cases - the chosen of the gods and the Ritualist profession. Before magic was given to the races, the Canthan Ritualists were able to call upon their ancestors for use in magic. With the introduction of magic, the Ritualist profession became even stronger - in both the old ways, and new."

    There is no record of the Mursaat using magic before the gods gifted the races of tyria with it.

    The Elder Dragons predate the gods and have their own powers, true. The safest thing to assume is that they were born from the mists, like everything in the world of Guild Wars including the gods, the stars, and any power was. They're born from the same place the gods (or the original wielder of their powers) were.  

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_mists

  • MannyManaMannyMana San Rafael, CAPosts: 121Member

    I'm an atheist in RL and if there gods were ever proven to exist I would very much be a naytheist so to that I say YES.

  • ExilorExilor Las Palmas de Gran CanariaPosts: 391Member

    Originally posted by MannyMana

    I'm an atheist in RL and if there gods were ever proven to exist I would very much be a naytheist so to that I say YES.

    Next?

  • ExilorExilor Las Palmas de Gran CanariaPosts: 391Member

    Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

    I think I've been misunderstood by some and demonised (thanks, Exilor) by others, here.

    It's easy to demonise someone who shares an opposing opinion rather than dealing with the opinion, isn't it? Sigh. Okay, anyway... some of you understood what I was getting at.

    Without demonising me, can we at least acknowledge the following?



    • In the intro, the human you play wails on aout the missing gods and how they still believe in them.


    • In the biography, you must choose to havee been blessed by a particular god.


    Both of these things strongly imply that humans are forced to have faith in the gods in their personal storyline. What I was saying is that it's my position that if a person wants to have a personal storyline as a human that precludes the gods, then they should have that option. Or if it must include the gods, then it should include the option to spurn them. My worry is that ArenaNet aren't considering this choice for human characters.


     


    All I was positing is that there should be the option for people to choose. If you want to be faithful or if you want to e a "Naytheist."


     


    What is a Naytheist? Well, Diovidius got this. It's someone who understands that powerful beings exist, but that powerful beings exist everywhere, and that anyone stronger than oneself is a powerful being. But that doesn't mean that we should bow down to them, or worship them, or accept their word as law. It doesn't mean that we should accept them as superior beings, either, but rather simply more powerful. And it doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to become more powerful by our own merits in order to challenge them.


     


    I believe that these should be options available to human characters.


     


    With it laid out so plainly I don't see how anyone could demonise me for thinking this, but hey, I'm sure some will try.

    Without demonising me by complaining that I demonise you, can you acknowledge that in the biography you're asked about other people's views on the subject and not your own? And that it's perrfectly possible that in the video the player characters refers to the human race as a whole (since that's who the character is talking about) and not themselves?

  • DiovidiusDiovidius GoudaPosts: 1,025Member

    Originally posted by Exilor

    Originally posted by Diovidius

    1. I wrote: You do know that pretty much everything we know about the gods either comes from things said or written by humans or what was said by the gods (or their avatars) themselves right? Lore articles, dialogue, timelines it's all from a human point of view, GW1 in it's entirety was a human thing. As Ghosts of Ascalon shows in it's tale of the Foefire it matters a great deal who tells the story.

    2. And how is believing in their existance and their power the same as believing that they are gods?

    3. Then explain ritualist magic or mursaat magic (and Elder Dragon magic), both existed before the gift of magic .

    Read the history section http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods_of_tyria

    1. The human point of view is that the gods created tyria and humans themselves. Out of the game, in the official wiki, the gods are revealed to not have created tyria, they simply brought humanity there from some other world. The wiki is not the human point of view. It's not some human story, the wiki tells of humanity's version and the actual reality of the game. And since it's the official wiki, it's canon

    In the same wiki, the article concerning the word itself (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Tyria_(world)) it's not said that the gods created it, because they actually didn't. The wiki is not humanity's mouthpiece, it's objective, canon information about the game world. Still, they are referred to as gods.They're a category of being called gods. They might not be bible gods, they're Guild Wars gods.

     

    2. The Charr saw unfair that humans had gods, who they blamed for their defeat at human hands. So they sought gods of their own so that they might also had that advantage. The shaman caste found a titan in a volcano and brought it to be worshipped as a god by the other charr. In turn, the titans provided them with the power to cause the Searing.

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Charr

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Titan

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shaman_caste

    I do not know if the shamans themselves thought the titans to be gods, but the rest of the charr (except bathea havocbringer who refused to worship them and was executed) believed so.

    Basically: Oh the humans have gods and that's why they defeated us. Let us find gods of our own. Great, now we have gods, let's take back our land.

    They do believe the tyrian gods to be really gods. That doesn't mean they worship them or anything, in fact they want to destroy them (and become gods themselves? I didn't think about that but they might like the idea...). They refused to bow to anyone, god or otherwise.

    3. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Magic

    "Despite the fact that magic was not given to the races of Tyria on a whole until just before the Exodus, there are cases where magic was used before such time. Those cases are based on two cases - the chosen of the gods and the Ritualist profession. Before magic was given to the races, the Canthan Ritualists were able to call upon their ancestors for use in magic. With the introduction of magic, the Ritualist profession became even stronger - in both the old ways, and new."

    There is no record of the Mursaat using magic before the gods gifted the races of tyria with it.

    The Elder Dragons predate the gods and have their own powers, true. The safest thing to assume is that they were born from the mists, like everything in the world of Guild Wars including the gods, the stars, and any power was. They're born from the same place the gods (or the original wielder of their powers) were.  

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_mists

    1. In no way is the official wiki a canon source for lore, it is not created by Anet, only supported which means everything on the wiki either comes from the game or from other lore sources which are almost all based on the human point of view.

    2. So because the charr saw the titans as gods they had to view the human gods as gods?

    3.

    You're still ignoring ritualist magic and blaming the mist on the power of the elder dragons is probably true, but merely proves that the gods are hardly unique since EVERYTHING comes from the mists eventually.

     

    On mursaat magic, let's look at logic shall we:

    The seer had developed a way to protect themselves against spectral agony.

    The mursaat vs seer war was before the gift of magic.

    Ergo spectral agony predates the gift of magic.

  • ExilorExilor Las Palmas de Gran CanariaPosts: 391Member

    Originally posted by Diovidius

    Originally posted by Exilor


    Originally posted by Diovidius

    1. I wrote: You do know that pretty much everything we know about the gods either comes from things said or written by humans or what was said by the gods (or their avatars) themselves right? Lore articles, dialogue, timelines it's all from a human point of view, GW1 in it's entirety was a human thing. As Ghosts of Ascalon shows in it's tale of the Foefire it matters a great deal who tells the story.

    2. And how is believing in their existance and their power the same as believing that they are gods?

    3. Then explain ritualist magic or mursaat magic (and Elder Dragon magic), both existed before the gift of magic .

    Read the history section http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods_of_tyria

    1. The human point of view is that the gods created tyria and humans themselves. Out of the game, in the official wiki, the gods are revealed to not have created tyria, they simply brought humanity there from some other world. The wiki is not the human point of view. It's not some human story, the wiki tells of humanity's version and the actual reality of the game. And since it's the official wiki, it's canon

    In the same wiki, the article concerning the word itself (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Tyria_(world)) it's not said that the gods created it, because they actually didn't. The wiki is not humanity's mouthpiece, it's objective, canon information about the game world. Still, they are referred to as gods.They're a category of being called gods. They might not be bible gods, they're Guild Wars gods.

     

    2. The Charr saw unfair that humans had gods, who they blamed for their defeat at human hands. So they sought gods of their own so that they might also had that advantage. The shaman caste found a titan in a volcano and brought it to be worshipped as a god by the other charr. In turn, the titans provided them with the power to cause the Searing.

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Charr

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Titan

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shaman_caste

    I do not know if the shamans themselves thought the titans to be gods, but the rest of the charr (except bathea havocbringer who refused to worship them and was executed) believed so.

    Basically: Oh the humans have gods and that's why they defeated us. Let us find gods of our own. Great, now we have gods, let's take back our land.

    They do believe the tyrian gods to be really gods. That doesn't mean they worship them or anything, in fact they want to destroy them (and become gods themselves? I didn't think about that but they might like the idea...). They refused to bow to anyone, god or otherwise.

    3. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Magic

    "Despite the fact that magic was not given to the races of Tyria on a whole until just before the Exodus, there are cases where magic was used before such time. Those cases are based on two cases - the chosen of the gods and the Ritualist profession. Before magic was given to the races, the Canthan Ritualists were able to call upon their ancestors for use in magic. With the introduction of magic, the Ritualist profession became even stronger - in both the old ways, and new."

    There is no record of the Mursaat using magic before the gods gifted the races of tyria with it.

    The Elder Dragons predate the gods and have their own powers, true. The safest thing to assume is that they were born from the mists, like everything in the world of Guild Wars including the gods, the stars, and any power was. They're born from the same place the gods (or the original wielder of their powers) were.  

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_mists

    1. In no way is the official wiki a canon source for lore, it is not created by Anet, only supported which means everything on the wiki either comes from the game or from other lore sources which are almost all based on the human point of view.

    2. So because the charr saw the titans as gods they had to view the human gods as gods?

    3.

    You're still ignoring ritualist magic and blaming the mist on the power of the elder dragons is probably true, but merely proves that the gods are hardly unique since EVERYTHING comes from the mists eventually.

     

    On mursaat magic, let's look at logic shall we:

    The seer had developed a way to protect themselves against spectral agony.

    The mursaat vs seer war was before the gift of magic.

    Ergo spectral agony predates the gift of magic.

    1. Then find me a better lore source, it's not I who is challenging what is closest to official.

    2. The gods don't have to be unique or be the only power on the universe to be what they are.

    3. I did address ritualist magic, and mursaat magic is probably the same. That is, if it's magic at all. It is not described as such and ingame it is not a spell and goes past Spellbreaker. Even if it is magic, it doesn't matter, because precedent of some forms of magic in the world doesn't equal most races could do magic and thus the gods didn't give it to the races of tyria.

    The gods gave magic to the world then had to limit it. There is no doubt about that. Even if a few could perform limited feats of magic beforehand.

  • VarthanderVarthander BarcelonaPosts: 471Member

    Since guild wars 2 gods are part of the lore i must say No. Another example would be... would you create a space marine with no faith in the emperor, or a chaos one with no faith in the dark gods? im just glad there is no option to that, and of coruse i respect your Poll, im just telling my opinion.

    image

  • DiovidiusDiovidius GoudaPosts: 1,025Member

    Originally posted by Exilor

    Originally posted by Diovidius


    Originally posted by Exilor


    Originally posted by Diovidius

    1. I wrote: You do know that pretty much everything we know about the gods either comes from things said or written by humans or what was said by the gods (or their avatars) themselves right? Lore articles, dialogue, timelines it's all from a human point of view, GW1 in it's entirety was a human thing. As Ghosts of Ascalon shows in it's tale of the Foefire it matters a great deal who tells the story.

    2. And how is believing in their existance and their power the same as believing that they are gods?

    3. Then explain ritualist magic or mursaat magic (and Elder Dragon magic), both existed before the gift of magic .

    Read the history section http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods_of_tyria

    1. The human point of view is that the gods created tyria and humans themselves. Out of the game, in the official wiki, the gods are revealed to not have created tyria, they simply brought humanity there from some other world. The wiki is not the human point of view. It's not some human story, the wiki tells of humanity's version and the actual reality of the game. And since it's the official wiki, it's canon

    In the same wiki, the article concerning the word itself (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Tyria_(world)) it's not said that the gods created it, because they actually didn't. The wiki is not humanity's mouthpiece, it's objective, canon information about the game world. Still, they are referred to as gods.They're a category of being called gods. They might not be bible gods, they're Guild Wars gods.

     

    2. The Charr saw unfair that humans had gods, who they blamed for their defeat at human hands. So they sought gods of their own so that they might also had that advantage. The shaman caste found a titan in a volcano and brought it to be worshipped as a god by the other charr. In turn, the titans provided them with the power to cause the Searing.

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Charr

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Titan

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shaman_caste

    I do not know if the shamans themselves thought the titans to be gods, but the rest of the charr (except bathea havocbringer who refused to worship them and was executed) believed so.

    Basically: Oh the humans have gods and that's why they defeated us. Let us find gods of our own. Great, now we have gods, let's take back our land.

    They do believe the tyrian gods to be really gods. That doesn't mean they worship them or anything, in fact they want to destroy them (and become gods themselves? I didn't think about that but they might like the idea...). They refused to bow to anyone, god or otherwise.

    3. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Magic

    "Despite the fact that magic was not given to the races of Tyria on a whole until just before the Exodus, there are cases where magic was used before such time. Those cases are based on two cases - the chosen of the gods and the Ritualist profession. Before magic was given to the races, the Canthan Ritualists were able to call upon their ancestors for use in magic. With the introduction of magic, the Ritualist profession became even stronger - in both the old ways, and new."

    There is no record of the Mursaat using magic before the gods gifted the races of tyria with it.

    The Elder Dragons predate the gods and have their own powers, true. The safest thing to assume is that they were born from the mists, like everything in the world of Guild Wars including the gods, the stars, and any power was. They're born from the same place the gods (or the original wielder of their powers) were.  

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_mists

    1. In no way is the official wiki a canon source for lore, it is not created by Anet, only supported which means everything on the wiki either comes from the game or from other lore sources which are almost all based on the human point of view.

    2. So because the charr saw the titans as gods they had to view the human gods as gods?

    3.

    You're still ignoring ritualist magic and blaming the mist on the power of the elder dragons is probably true, but merely proves that the gods are hardly unique since EVERYTHING comes from the mists eventually.

     

    On mursaat magic, let's look at logic shall we:

    The seer had developed a way to protect themselves against spectral agony.

    The mursaat vs seer war was before the gift of magic.

    Ergo spectral agony predates the gift of magic.

    1. Then find me a better lore source, it's not I who is challenging what is closest to official.

    2. The gods don't have to be unique or be the only power on the universe to be what they are.

    3. I did address ritualist magic, and mursaat magic is probably the same. That is, if it's magic at all. It is not described as such and ingame it is not a spell and goes past Spellbreaker. Even if it is magic, it doesn't matter, because precedent of some forms of magic in the world doesn't equal most races could do magic and thus the gods didn't give it to the races of tyria.

    The gods gave magic to the world then had to limit it. There is no doubt about that. Even if a few could perform limited feats of magic beforehand.

    1. I'm just pointing out the problems with existing sources. If you met an alien race as the first human being and they talked to you about gods would you believe them? They would be the only source you would have about those gods so you have no evidence against their statements right? What if you later actually meet one of those gods, it says it's a god and it performs an apparently supernatural feat, would you consider it to be a god then? If you wouldn't, then you are being a hypocrite, if you would you are naive.

    2. True.

    3. Also true.

  • ExilorExilor Las Palmas de Gran CanariaPosts: 391Member

    Originally posted by Diovidius

    Originally posted by Exilor


    Originally posted by Diovidius


    Originally posted by Exilor


    Originally posted by Diovidius

    1. I wrote: You do know that pretty much everything we know about the gods either comes from things said or written by humans or what was said by the gods (or their avatars) themselves right? Lore articles, dialogue, timelines it's all from a human point of view, GW1 in it's entirety was a human thing. As Ghosts of Ascalon shows in it's tale of the Foefire it matters a great deal who tells the story.

    2. And how is believing in their existance and their power the same as believing that they are gods?

    3. Then explain ritualist magic or mursaat magic (and Elder Dragon magic), both existed before the gift of magic .

    Read the history section http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods_of_tyria

    1. The human point of view is that the gods created tyria and humans themselves. Out of the game, in the official wiki, the gods are revealed to not have created tyria, they simply brought humanity there from some other world. The wiki is not the human point of view. It's not some human story, the wiki tells of humanity's version and the actual reality of the game. And since it's the official wiki, it's canon

    In the same wiki, the article concerning the word itself (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Tyria_(world)) it's not said that the gods created it, because they actually didn't. The wiki is not humanity's mouthpiece, it's objective, canon information about the game world. Still, they are referred to as gods.They're a category of being called gods. They might not be bible gods, they're Guild Wars gods.

     

    2. The Charr saw unfair that humans had gods, who they blamed for their defeat at human hands. So they sought gods of their own so that they might also had that advantage. The shaman caste found a titan in a volcano and brought it to be worshipped as a god by the other charr. In turn, the titans provided them with the power to cause the Searing.

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Charr

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Titan

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shaman_caste

    I do not know if the shamans themselves thought the titans to be gods, but the rest of the charr (except bathea havocbringer who refused to worship them and was executed) believed so.

    Basically: Oh the humans have gods and that's why they defeated us. Let us find gods of our own. Great, now we have gods, let's take back our land.

    They do believe the tyrian gods to be really gods. That doesn't mean they worship them or anything, in fact they want to destroy them (and become gods themselves? I didn't think about that but they might like the idea...). They refused to bow to anyone, god or otherwise.

    3. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Magic

    "Despite the fact that magic was not given to the races of Tyria on a whole until just before the Exodus, there are cases where magic was used before such time. Those cases are based on two cases - the chosen of the gods and the Ritualist profession. Before magic was given to the races, the Canthan Ritualists were able to call upon their ancestors for use in magic. With the introduction of magic, the Ritualist profession became even stronger - in both the old ways, and new."

    There is no record of the Mursaat using magic before the gods gifted the races of tyria with it.

    The Elder Dragons predate the gods and have their own powers, true. The safest thing to assume is that they were born from the mists, like everything in the world of Guild Wars including the gods, the stars, and any power was. They're born from the same place the gods (or the original wielder of their powers) were.  

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_mists

    1. In no way is the official wiki a canon source for lore, it is not created by Anet, only supported which means everything on the wiki either comes from the game or from other lore sources which are almost all based on the human point of view.

    2. So because the charr saw the titans as gods they had to view the human gods as gods?

    3.

    You're still ignoring ritualist magic and blaming the mist on the power of the elder dragons is probably true, but merely proves that the gods are hardly unique since EVERYTHING comes from the mists eventually.

     

    On mursaat magic, let's look at logic shall we:

    The seer had developed a way to protect themselves against spectral agony.

    The mursaat vs seer war was before the gift of magic.

    Ergo spectral agony predates the gift of magic.

    1. Then find me a better lore source, it's not I who is challenging what is closest to official.

    2. The gods don't have to be unique or be the only power on the universe to be what they are.

    3. I did address ritualist magic, and mursaat magic is probably the same. That is, if it's magic at all. It is not described as such and ingame it is not a spell and goes past Spellbreaker. Even if it is magic, it doesn't matter, because precedent of some forms of magic in the world doesn't equal most races could do magic and thus the gods didn't give it to the races of tyria.

    The gods gave magic to the world then had to limit it. There is no doubt about that. Even if a few could perform limited feats of magic beforehand.

    1. I'm just pointing out the problems with existing sources. If you met an alien race as the first human being and they talked to you about gods would you believe them? They would be the only source you would have about those gods so you have no evidence against their statements right? What if you later actually meet one of those gods, it says it's a god and it performs an apparently supernatural feat, would you consider it to be a god then? If you wouldn't, then you are being a hypocrite, if you would you are naive.

    2. True.

    3. Also true.

    It's all the sources we have, if you prefer to theorise that things are not what they appear and somewhere in the game there will be a plot twist involving the reveal that the gods are aliens, fine by me. It would be a fine prelude to Guild Wars 3 2500 in the future instead of 250. I mean it, it would be cool as hell to have a "Guild Wars 40k".

  • DiovidiusDiovidius GoudaPosts: 1,025Member

    Originally posted by Exilor

    Originally posted by Diovidius

    1. I'm just pointing out the problems with existing sources. If you met an alien race as the first human being and they talked to you about gods would you believe them? They would be the only source you would have about those gods so you have no evidence against their statements right? What if you later actually meet one of those gods, it says it's a god and it performs an apparently supernatural feat, would you consider it to be a god then? If you wouldn't, then you are being a hypocrite, if you would you are naive.

    2. True.

    3. Also true.

    It's all the sources we have, if you prefer to theorise that things are not what they appear and somewhere in the game there will be a plot twist involving the reveal that the gods are aliens, fine by me. It would be a fine prelude to Guild Wars 3 2500 in the future instead of 250. I mean it, it would be cool as hell to have a "Guild Wars 40k".

    Making a strawman out of an example I used to prove a point does not help win arguments you know ;) But I agree to some extent. Sure, we have to use the lore that is available to us however that does not mean that we have to accept it without asking critical questions.

  • MeowheadMeowhead New Carlisle, INPosts: 3,716Member

    Originally posted by Dream_Chaser


     


    With it laid out so plainly I don't see how anyone could demonise me for thinking this, but hey, I'm sure some will try.

    Pretty much the same way that people can demonize dedicated healers, people who raid and the P2P model.  ;)

  • ExilorExilor Las Palmas de Gran CanariaPosts: 391Member

    Originally posted by Diovidius

    Originally posted by Exilor


    Originally posted by Diovidius

    1. I'm just pointing out the problems with existing sources. If you met an alien race as the first human being and they talked to you about gods would you believe them? They would be the only source you would have about those gods so you have no evidence against their statements right? What if you later actually meet one of those gods, it says it's a god and it performs an apparently supernatural feat, would you consider it to be a god then? If you wouldn't, then you are being a hypocrite, if you would you are naive.

    2. True.

    3. Also true.

    It's all the sources we have, if you prefer to theorise that things are not what they appear and somewhere in the game there will be a plot twist involving the reveal that the gods are aliens, fine by me. It would be a fine prelude to Guild Wars 3 2500 in the future instead of 250. I mean it, it would be cool as hell to have a "Guild Wars 40k".

    Making a strawman out of an example I used to prove a point does not help win arguments you know ;) But I agree to some extent. Sure, we have to use the lore that is available to us however that does not mean that we have to accept it without asking critical questions.

    The point I defend does not depend on my success or failure in conveying it to be more or less true.

    You can ask all the critical questions you want but nothing in the lore leads to the conclusion that the gods are something else other than gods.

  • ExilorExilor Las Palmas de Gran CanariaPosts: 391Member

    Originally posted by Meowhead

    Originally posted by Dream_Chaser



     


    With it laid out so plainly I don't see how anyone could demonise me for thinking this, but hey, I'm sure some will try.

    Pretty much the same way that people can demonize dedicated healers, people who raid and the P2P model.  ;)

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WoundedGazelleGambit

  • AKASlaphappyAKASlaphappy Boise, IDPosts: 800Member

    Originally posted by Grigor_Bron

     

    My main concern is how closely tied the gods are to the human cultural identity. All of the human racial abilities are linked to the gods. Also, it seems that by this logic, charr should be allowed to worship the human gods, the asura should be allowed to venerate nature spirits, and the norn should be able to tap into the eternal alchemy. These and all possible related combinations should be made available by the same argument. So, application of your philosophy would be great in any other game, but I just can't see it working in this one.


    This right here sums it all up! If they are going to add that option in for humans they better add in that same option to go against the stated beliefs for all races. Now personally I would rather not have ANet keep the game in development to add this to the game when people can just role-play this!

  • svannsvann san jose, CAPosts: 1,638Member Uncommon

    In eq1 thats exactly what an atheist was.  Obviously the "gods" exist as beings, but to an atheist they are not really gods at all but merely extremely powerful beings.

  • evolver1972evolver1972 Port Orchard, WAPosts: 1,118Member

    Originally posted by AKASlaphappy

    Originally posted by Grigor_Bron


     

    My main concern is how closely tied the gods are to the human cultural identity. All of the human racial abilities are linked to the gods. Also, it seems that by this logic, charr should be allowed to worship the human gods, the asura should be allowed to venerate nature spirits, and the norn should be able to tap into the eternal alchemy. These and all possible related combinations should be made available by the same argument. So, application of your philosophy would be great in any other game, but I just can't see it working in this one.


    This right here sums it all up! If they are going to add that option in for humans they better add in that same option to go against the stated beliefs for all races. Now personally I would rather not have ANet keep the game in development to add this to the game when people can just role-play this!

    This was pretty much my point but you guys said it better than I did! lol

    image

    You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

    Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,064Member Uncommon

    I think i would not want to play anything else...

     

    In all my roleplay experiences i refused to play clerical and beleiving characers.  As i was mostly a healer/support kind of class, that left me with Druidical and Shamanastic healers to play...

    In my roleplay experience (espescially D&D) i allways refused to honor and or admit the excistance of godly beings..  (Espescially fun roleplaying when there is a cleric that refuses to heal those that do not Honor his god)

     

     

    I totally agree that there should be roleplay/story options for those that are Naytheists...

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • twstdstrangetwstdstrange Walton, NYPosts: 474Member

    This is why I was pushed away from my usual Human MMO choice, and I was drawn more towards the Asura.

    I had wanted to ask ANet about the option to choose to worship no god(s) in particular, but had never gotten around to it.

  • ExilorExilor Las Palmas de Gran CanariaPosts: 391Member

    Originally posted by Exilor

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