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[Poll] Human Naytheists: Should it be an option?

24

Comments

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,041Member Uncommon

    "Wizards don't believe in gods in the same way that most people don't find it necessary to believe in, say, tables. They know they're there, they know they're there for a purpose, they'd probably agree that they have a place in a well-organised universe, but they wouldn't see the point of believing, of going around saying "O great table, without whom we are as naught." Anyway, either the gods are there whether you believe in them or not, or exist only as a function of the belief, so either way you might as well ignore the whole business and, as it were, eat off your knees."

    — Terry Pratchett (Reaper Man)

  • ExilorExilor Las Palmas de Gran CanariaPosts: 391Member

    Originally posted by Loke666

    "Wizards don't believe in gods in the same way that most people don't find it necessary to believe in, say, tables. They know they're there, they know they're there for a purpose, they'd probably agree that they have a place in a well-organised universe, but they wouldn't see the point of believing, of going around saying "O great table, without whom we are as naught." Anyway, either the gods are there whether you believe in them or not, or exist only as a function of the belief, so either way you might as well ignore the whole business and, as it were, eat off your knees."

    — Terry Pratchett (Reaper Man)

    That's more or less the way the asura see the gods.

  • futnatusfutnatus SomeplacePosts: 193Member

    Originally posted by ActionMMORPG

    One doesn't often find religious positioning as a character option.

     

    My characters?  They worship the Daedra.  Problem solved.  Now where'd I put that skooma?

    Hear, hear.

  • DiovidiusDiovidius GoudaPosts: 1,025Member

    Originally posted by Tekaelon

    Regardless of what you choose to call the gods of GW2,  they obviously exist on a higher level of life.

    Criteria for godhood

    Total or partial omnicience (having very great or seemingly unlimited knowledge )

    Total or parial omnipreence (present in all places at the same time)

    Divine willl (A determined path for life )

    Divine power (Focus of power through followers)

    All 6 deities from the original guild wars lore demonstrated each aspect of the above. This is unlike the Marsat who were just a powerful race of beings who tried to dominate the world. In fact there downfall was propagated by the GW gods.

    Why are those criteria for godhood? What is godhood exactly? What makes you say the human gods have total or partial omniscience and omniprescence? How is the power of the human gods tied to their followers? And what do you mean by 'a determined path for life'? You say those aspects are demonstrated in lore, demonstrate them. And in such a way that it can't be applied to powerful spellcasters.

  • ExilorExilor Las Palmas de Gran CanariaPosts: 391Member

    Originally posted by Diovidius

    Originally posted by Tekaelon

    Regardless of what you choose to call the gods of GW2,  they obviously exist on a higher level of life.

    Criteria for godhood

    Total or partial omnicience (having very great or seemingly unlimited knowledge )

    Total or parial omnipreence (present in all places at the same time)

    Divine willl (A determined path for life )

    Divine power (Focus of power through followers)

    All 6 deities from the original guild wars lore demonstrated each aspect of the above. This is unlike the Marsat who were just a powerful race of beings who tried to dominate the world. In fact there downfall was propagated by the GW gods.

    Why are those criteria for godhood? What is godhood exactly? What makes you say the human gods have total or partial omniscience and omniprescence? How is the power of the human gods tied to their followers? And what do you mean by 'a determined path for life'? You say those aspects are demonstrated in lore, demonstrate them. And in such a way that it can't be applied to powerful spellcasters.

    It doesn't matter. Gods in a work of fiction don't have to conform to his or your criteria. ArenaNet made the gods of Tyria, and unless they reveal that it was a lie all along people can only change that in their own personal canon.

  • DiovidiusDiovidius GoudaPosts: 1,025Member

    Originally posted by Exilor

    Originally posted by Diovidius


    Originally posted by Tekaelon

    Regardless of what you choose to call the gods of GW2,  they obviously exist on a higher level of life.

    Criteria for godhood

    Total or partial omnicience (having very great or seemingly unlimited knowledge )

    Total or parial omnipreence (present in all places at the same time)

    Divine willl (A determined path for life )

    Divine power (Focus of power through followers)

    All 6 deities from the original guild wars lore demonstrated each aspect of the above. This is unlike the Marsat who were just a powerful race of beings who tried to dominate the world. In fact there downfall was propagated by the GW gods.

    Why are those criteria for godhood? What is godhood exactly? What makes you say the human gods have total or partial omniscience and omniprescence? How is the power of the human gods tied to their followers? And what do you mean by 'a determined path for life'? You say those aspects are demonstrated in lore, demonstrate them. And in such a way that it can't be applied to powerful spellcasters.

    It doesn't matter. Gods in a work of fiction don't have to conform to his or your criteria. ArenaNet made the gods of Tyria, and unless they reveal that it was a lie all along people can only change that in their own personal canon.

    It does matter. Anet never stated the human gods are gods from an objective point of view, Anet only stated that the humans view them as gods (and a few other races).

  • ExilorExilor Las Palmas de Gran CanariaPosts: 391Member

    Originally posted by Diovidius

    Originally posted by Exilor


    Originally posted by Diovidius


    Originally posted by Tekaelon

    Regardless of what you choose to call the gods of GW2,  they obviously exist on a higher level of life.

    Criteria for godhood

    Total or partial omnicience (having very great or seemingly unlimited knowledge )

    Total or parial omnipreence (present in all places at the same time)

    Divine willl (A determined path for life )

    Divine power (Focus of power through followers)

    All 6 deities from the original guild wars lore demonstrated each aspect of the above. This is unlike the Marsat who were just a powerful race of beings who tried to dominate the world. In fact there downfall was propagated by the GW gods.

    Why are those criteria for godhood? What is godhood exactly? What makes you say the human gods have total or partial omniscience and omniprescence? How is the power of the human gods tied to their followers? And what do you mean by 'a determined path for life'? You say those aspects are demonstrated in lore, demonstrate them. And in such a way that it can't be applied to powerful spellcasters.

    It doesn't matter. Gods in a work of fiction don't have to conform to his or your criteria. ArenaNet made the gods of Tyria, and unless they reveal that it was a lie all along people can only change that in their own personal canon.

    It does matter. Anet never stated the human gods are gods from an objective point of view, Anet only stated that the humans view them as gods (and a few other races).

    http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/races/human/

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods_of_tyria

    http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gods_of_Tyria

    Look for your statement that says that "humans view them as gods". The phrase itself insinuates that they are not. But it doesn't say that, anywhere. They are described as the gods of the humans, the group of dieties worshipped by humans. Not powerful beings which humans believe to be gods.

  • DiovidiusDiovidius GoudaPosts: 1,025Member

    Originally posted by Exilor

    Originally posted by Diovidius


    Originally posted by Exilor

    It doesn't matter. Gods in a work of fiction don't have to conform to his or your criteria. ArenaNet made the gods of Tyria, and unless they reveal that it was a lie all along people can only change that in their own personal canon.

    It does matter. Anet never stated the human gods are gods from an objective point of view, Anet only stated that the humans view them as gods (and a few other races).

    http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/races/human/

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods_of_tyria

    http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gods_of_Tyria

    Look for your statement that says that "humans view them as gods". The phrase itself insinuates that they are not. But it doesn't say that, anywhere. They are described as the gods of the humans, the group of dieties worshipped by humans. Not powerful beings which humans believe to be gods.

    You do know that pretty much everything we know about the gods either comes from things said or written by humans or what was said by the gods (or their avatars) themselves right? Lore articles, dialogue, timelines it's all from a human point of view, GW1 in it's entirety was a human thing. As Ghosts of Ascalon shows in it's tale of the Foefire it matters a great deal who tells the story.

    And do you consider the Charr to be wrong in their assumption of the non-divinity of the gods? Grenth defeated a god without being a god himself. The players in GW1 defeated a god without being gods themselves (although it was a chained and weakened god and the players were blessed by other gods). Abbadon presumebly defeated a god without being a god himself. The Elder Dragons rival the power of the gods. In fact, Abbadon thought he could harm the other gods by bringing mortals (margonites) to their realm (a similar thing to what Dhuum and Menzies are doing in GW1).

  • Grigor_BronGrigor_Bron Murfreesborro, TNPosts: 129Member

    Originally posted by Tekaelon

    Regardless of what you choose to call the gods of GW2,  they obviously exist on a higher level of life.

    Criteria for godhood

    Total or partial omnicience (having very great or seemingly unlimited knowledge )

    Total or parial omnipreence (present in all places at the same time)

    Divine willl (A determined path for life )

    Divine power (Focus of power through followers)

    All 6 deities from the original guild wars lore demonstrated each aspect of the above. This is unlike the Marsat who were just a powerful race of beings who tried to dominate the world. In fact there downfall was propagated by the GW gods.

    Despite all this Tyria's inhabitents have free will that allows anyone to firmly stick their head in the sand and ignore/deny the obvious influences the gods have in the world.  You are allowed to believe as you want, without fear of worldly retribution. Unfortunately this will likely be something a player will need RP.

    I don't wish this to turn into a flame war, but please don't refer to those that believe in God as sheeple. There is room for many ideas other than freely acccepting an incomplete theory of the world and life being formed through a series of random events. As a software designer I know that that writing random bits of syntax will not produce an efficent functioning program. The same is true of life on a much much more complex scale. You don't have to believe in any peticular religion to acknowledge the evidence of design.  Neither science mor religion give all the answers, and there is certianly nothing wrong with questioning both, unless you are a fanatic.

     

     

     

     

    There is no such thing as partial omniscience or omnipresence. "Omni" means "all." Partial omni-anything is self-contradictory.

    None of the attributes you mentioned are characteristics of, for example, the Greko-Roman or Germanic gods. The fact is that there are no universal characteristics of godhood in the polytheistic sense. The Greek and Norse gods aren't so much omniscient as well-informed. They are entirely capable of ignorance. They are in no way omnipresent, as they possess physical bodies bound by space and time. They have no divine plan. They frequently stick their nose into human affairs, but they have no overriding "endgame" in mind. They just do what they feel like doing at the time. Finally, they have great power, but it is in no way tied to their followers. They existed before human beings and had plenty of power long before the first man began worshiping them. Just as a bonus, no deity in any pantheon has been described as all-powerful. That's why there needs to be so many: to pick up the slack.

    Now, if we were talking about a monotheistic deity, a list of immutable attributes would be entirely appropriate. But monotheism and polytheism are much more different than people give them credit for. The only real universal criteria for godhood is that a being is a god if it is worthy of worship, but everyone has a different idea of what attributes really grant that worthiness.

  • ExilorExilor Las Palmas de Gran CanariaPosts: 391Member

    Originally posted by Diovidius

    Originally posted by Exilor


    Originally posted by Diovidius


    Originally posted by Exilor

    It doesn't matter. Gods in a work of fiction don't have to conform to his or your criteria. ArenaNet made the gods of Tyria, and unless they reveal that it was a lie all along people can only change that in their own personal canon.

    It does matter. Anet never stated the human gods are gods from an objective point of view, Anet only stated that the humans view them as gods (and a few other races).

    http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/races/human/

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods_of_tyria

    http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gods_of_Tyria

    Look for your statement that says that "humans view them as gods". The phrase itself insinuates that they are not. But it doesn't say that, anywhere. They are described as the gods of the humans, the group of dieties worshipped by humans. Not powerful beings which humans believe to be gods.

    You do know that pretty much everything we know about the gods either comes from things said or written by humans or what was said by the gods (or their avatars) themselves right? Lore articles, dialogue, timelines it's all from a human point of view, GW1 in it's entirety was a human thing. As Ghosts of Ascalon shows in it's tale of the Foefire it matters a great deal who tells the story.

    And do you consider the Charr to be wrong in their assumption of the non-divinity of the gods? Grenth defeated a god without being a god himself. The players in GW1 defeated a god without being gods themselves (although it was a chained and weakened god and the players were blessed by other gods). Abbadon presumebly defeated a god without being a god himself. The Elder Dragons rival the power of the gods. In fact, Abbadon thought he could harm the other gods by bringing mortals (margonites) to their realm (a similar thing to what Dhuum and Menzies are doing in GW1).

    1. The wikis and the official website aren't quotes from human npcs.

     

    2. The charr do believe the human gods are gods. They want them destroyed anyway.

     

    3. Again, osiris in egyptian mythology was killed. Not all religions, in works of fiction or otherwise, have to be abrahamic-like just because it's more prevalent in our cultures.

  • Grigor_BronGrigor_Bron Murfreesborro, TNPosts: 129Member

    Originally posted by Exilor

    3. Again, osiris in egyptian mythology was killed. Not all religions, in works of fiction or otherwise, have to be abrahamic-like just because it's more prevalent in our cultures.

    Osiris is small pickings compared to Ragnarok. In Germanic mythology, nearly all of the gods are killed, and they don't return. On top of that, they are actually capable of dying of old age if they are deprived of their golden apples.

  • DiovidiusDiovidius GoudaPosts: 1,025Member

    Originally posted by Exilor

    Originally posted by Diovidius


    Originally posted by Exilor


    Originally posted by Diovidius


    Originally posted by Exilor

    It doesn't matter. Gods in a work of fiction don't have to conform to his or your criteria. ArenaNet made the gods of Tyria, and unless they reveal that it was a lie all along people can only change that in their own personal canon.

    It does matter. Anet never stated the human gods are gods from an objective point of view, Anet only stated that the humans view them as gods (and a few other races).

    http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/races/human/

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods_of_tyria

    http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gods_of_Tyria

    Look for your statement that says that "humans view them as gods". The phrase itself insinuates that they are not. But it doesn't say that, anywhere. They are described as the gods of the humans, the group of dieties worshipped by humans. Not powerful beings which humans believe to be gods.

    You do know that pretty much everything we know about the gods either comes from things said or written by humans or what was said by the gods (or their avatars) themselves right? Lore articles, dialogue, timelines it's all from a human point of view, GW1 in it's entirety was a human thing. As Ghosts of Ascalon shows in it's tale of the Foefire it matters a great deal who tells the story.

    And do you consider the Charr to be wrong in their assumption of the non-divinity of the gods? Grenth defeated a god without being a god himself. The players in GW1 defeated a god without being gods themselves (although it was a chained and weakened god and the players were blessed by other gods). Abbadon presumebly defeated a god without being a god himself. The Elder Dragons rival the power of the gods. In fact, Abbadon thought he could harm the other gods by bringing mortals (margonites) to their realm (a similar thing to what Dhuum and Menzies are doing in GW1).

    1. The wikis and the official website aren't quotes from human npcs.

    2. The charr do believe the human gods are gods. They want them destroyed anyway.

    3. Again, osiris in egyptian mythology was killed. Not all religions, in works of fiction or otherwise, have to be abrahamic-like just because it's more prevalent in our cultures.

    1. Read again, I wasn't just talking about quotes.

    2. So the charr do not consider them worthy of worship and think they can kill them but still view them as gods? As far as I know the charr always talk about the gods as the 'human gods' just like we can talk about a 'greek gods' without believing said gods exist.

    3. If your definition of gods stretches that far in a fantasy world where mortals can bend the very fabric of space (Lord Odran for example), then again I ask, what is the difference between powerful spellcasters and gods?

  • XexvXexv Milton KeynesPosts: 308Member

    Slightly off-topic but still related, fyi.

    I find this debate interesting but won't weigh in as I didn't play GW and have not a single clue about the lore.

    I plan on playing GW2 - would people advise that I read up as much as I can on GW lore before the game launches or that I go in completely blind? Do we know yet if GW2 actually introduces it all to people new to the scene or will it be assumed that everyone has a working knowledge of it already?

    I'm kinda torn.

  • DiovidiusDiovidius GoudaPosts: 1,025Member

    Originally posted by Xexv

    Slightly off-topic but still related, fyi.

    I find this debate interesting but won't weigh in as I didn't play GW and have not a single clue about the lore.

    I plan on playing GW2 - would people advise that I read up as much as I can on GW lore before the game launches or that I go in completely blind? Do we know yet if GW2 actually introduces it all to people new to the scene or will it be assumed that everyone has a working knowledge of it already?

    I'm kinda torn.

    I think you will be fine as there is a gap of 250 years between the two games and if you find anything you like to know more about you can use the two wiki's:

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lore

    http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lore

    If you really want to be prepared, you can read the three novels (of which two have come out at this point) which are specifically written to bridge the time between the two games:

    http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ghosts_of_ascalon

    http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Edge_of_Destiny

    http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sea_of_Sorrows_%28book%29

  • Grigor_BronGrigor_Bron Murfreesborro, TNPosts: 129Member

    Originally posted by Xexv

    Slightly off-topic but still related, fyi.

    I find this debate interesting but won't weigh in as I didn't play GW and have not a single clue about the lore.

    I plan on playing GW2 - would people advise that I read up as much as I can on GW lore before the game launches or that I go in completely blind? Do we know yet if GW2 actually introduces it all to people new to the scene or will it be assumed that everyone has a working knowledge of it already?

    I'm kinda torn.

    You could do either. I'm certain the game will introduce you to the lore as you play. The developers have assumed from the idea's inception that they will be bringing in a lot of players who never touched the original. That being said, it may make the experience slightly more enjoyable if you come in with a working knowledge of what came before.

  • TekaelonTekaelon Brookhaven, MSPosts: 532Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Diovidius

    Originally posted by Tekaelon

    Regardless of what you choose to call the gods of GW2,  they obviously exist on a higher level of life.

    Criteria for godhood

    Total or partial omnicience (having very great or seemingly unlimited knowledge )

    Total or parial omnipreence (present in all places at the same time)

    Divine willl (A determined path for life )

    Divine power (Focus of power through followers)

    All 6 deities from the original guild wars lore demonstrated each aspect of the above. This is unlike the Marsat who were just a powerful race of beings who tried to dominate the world. In fact there downfall was propagated by the GW gods.

    Why are those criteria for godhood? What is godhood exactly? What makes you say the human gods have total or partial omniscience and omniprescence? How is the power of the human gods tied to their followers? And what do you mean by 'a determined path for life'? You say those aspects are demonstrated in lore, demonstrate them. And in such a way that it can't be applied to powerful spellcasters.

    Well I did leave out one very important aspect of godhood, creation. It is assumed that any being with a designation of god created the world and its inhabitance. Just as in mythology the gods created life,  then provide guidence to faciliate growth and prosperity. It is the nature of a god to create, then foster that creation. Omniscience is demonstrated in that a plan of salvation was provided for the people of Tyria well before they were even aware of the threat. Ascension, infusion, and unnatural ability were all provided to allow the gods creation to defeat the evil that threatened them, and still not break the mandate of individual free will and self determination. That provision of a path to salvation demonstrates omnipresence, seeing things on a greater depth of scope and understanding.

    Divine power directly related to the names of skills from the original guild wars, for example Dwayna's Kiss, and Balthazar Aura. A monk is a servant of Dwayna/Balthazar. Their power was channeled directly from their gods, as it is in all games with this kind of lore. All magical classes except elementalist, elemental magic, conveyed some aspect of a peticular god. Granted you could argue that these abilities are inate attributes to the world, but that brings us full circle back to the question of creation.

    Ultimately lore should not have to provide fringe gameplay elements. That is like providing a scientific explaination for using magic. When I read a book it never occurs to me to buck the authors established lore because it does not suite my personal beliefs or lack of belief. I simply ingrose myself in the setting and enjoy the ride.

    Personally I would rather than see the dev team spend more time on WvW. :) 

  • XexvXexv Milton KeynesPosts: 308Member

    Thanks for the quick replies guys I'll probably have a light look at the wiki entries with my eyes squinted or something =)

    Anyway back to the discussion at hand, etc.

  • DiovidiusDiovidius GoudaPosts: 1,025Member

    Originally posted by Tekaelon

    Originally posted by Diovidius


    Originally posted by Tekaelon

    Regardless of what you choose to call the gods of GW2,  they obviously exist on a higher level of life.

    Criteria for godhood

    Total or partial omnicience (having very great or seemingly unlimited knowledge )

    Total or parial omnipreence (present in all places at the same time)

    Divine willl (A determined path for life )

    Divine power (Focus of power through followers)

    All 6 deities from the original guild wars lore demonstrated each aspect of the above. This is unlike the Marsat who were just a powerful race of beings who tried to dominate the world. In fact there downfall was propagated by the GW gods.

    Why are those criteria for godhood? What is godhood exactly? What makes you say the human gods have total or partial omniscience and omniprescence? How is the power of the human gods tied to their followers? And what do you mean by 'a determined path for life'? You say those aspects are demonstrated in lore, demonstrate them. And in such a way that it can't be applied to powerful spellcasters.

    Well I did leave out one very important aspect of godhood, creation. It is assumed that any being with a designation of god created the world and its inhabitance. Just as in mythology the gods created life,  then provide guidence to faciliate growth and prosperity. It is the nature of a god to create, then foster that creation. Omniscience is demonstrated in that a plan of salvation was provided for the people of Tyria well before they were even aware of the threat. Ascension, infusion, and unnatural ability were all provided to allow the gods creation to defeat the evil that threatened them, and still not break the mandate of individual free will and self determination. That provision of a path to salvation demonstrates omnipresence, seeing things on a greater depth of scope and understanding.

    Divine power directly related to the names of skills from the original guild wars, for example Dwayna's Kiss, and Balthazar Aura. A monk is a servant of Dwayna/Balthazar. Their power was channeled directly from their gods, as it is in all games with this kind of lore. All magical classes except elementalist, elemental magic, conveyed some aspect of a peticular god. Granted you could argue that these abilities are inate attributes to the world, but that brings us full circle back to the question of creation.

    Ultimately lore should not have to provide fringe gameplay elements. That is like providing a scientific explaination for using magic. When I read a book it never occurs to me to buck the authors established lore because it does not suite my personal beliefs or lack of belief. I simply ingrose myself in the setting and enjoy the ride.

    Personally I would rather than see the dev team spend more time on WvW. :) 

    A couple of mistakes. The gods did not create Tyria, nor did they create humanity. They only found Tyria and brought humanity there. What you cite as omniscience is just 'more knowledge than others', knowledge that Glint also had for example.

    What we know about magic goes against your monk example. All magic is just there in the world, filtered by the bloodstones. Human Monks may be pious and may call the magic they use prayers and may name specific spells after the gods but the actual magic does not come from the gods. Why else would there be charr monks or mursaat monks or even non-sentient monks? A part of the magic that exists in the world may originally come from the gods but after that gift they no longer controlled magic. Besides there was magic before the gods gave magic to the world (as can been seen from the mursaat, the elder dragons and the ritualist).

  • UnlightUnlight Ottawa, ONPosts: 2,540Member

    Originally posted by Xexv

    Slightly off-topic but still related, fyi.

    I find this debate interesting but won't weigh in as I didn't play GW and have not a single clue about the lore.

    I plan on playing GW2 - would people advise that I read up as much as I can on GW lore before the game launches or that I go in completely blind? Do we know yet if GW2 actually introduces it all to people new to the scene or will it be assumed that everyone has a working knowledge of it already?

    I'm kinda torn.

    It looks like the lore will be explained to you as you go as evidenced by the sequence preceeding the Ascalon dungeon.  There's a short clip that gives you the history of Ascalon and provides a bit of context for the dungeon.  But to be honest, those familiar with the lore, especially from playing GW1 already, will probably get more of a kick out of it.  There are many threadlines from the past that I think existing lorehounds will find rewarding once uncovered, beyond just the present context.  Places and events will have a greater impact if you know what really happened there because you were actually there to witness it.

    I'm not trying to dissuade you from GW2 in any way, though.  It looks to be a stellar game no matter what.  But for the sake of honesty, I think having a personal connection with the history after playing through it, will make it that much more meaningful.

  • RequiamerRequiamer ???Posts: 2,034Member

    I'm not someone that would dislike religions to be a big part of their mmo, quiet the contrary, flame bait or not. It encourage communication, i just love talking about religion with my friends and girlfriend, and i don't see why it would be a problem in a game. Sure it can be hot sometime, but heck we have seen more dangerous situation than forum fights ;p

    Also i understood pretty much nothing about the OP since i didn't played GW. But Gods are cool, even the most selfish and evilish one. If you don't want to follow any of them, just do so. But you jut better begin a new cult imo, maybe you can get some ingame donation for that image

  • Grigor_BronGrigor_Bron Murfreesborro, TNPosts: 129Member

    Originally posted by Tekaelon 

    Well I did leave out one very important aspect of godhood, creation. It is assumed that any being with a designation of god created the world and its inhabitance. Just as in mythology the gods created life,  then provide guidence to faciliate growth and prosperity. It is the nature of a god to create, then foster that creation.  Omniscience is demonstrated in that a plan of salvation was provided for the people of Tyria well before they were even aware of the threat. Ascension, infusion, and unnatural ability were all provided to allow the gods creation to defeat the evil that threatened them, and still not break the mandate of individual free will and self determination. That provision of a path to salvation demonstrates omnipresence, seeing things on a greater depth of scope and understanding.

    Divine power directly related to the names of skills from the original guild wars, for example Dwayna's Kiss, and Balthazar Aura. A monk is a servant of Dwayna/Balthazar. Their power was channeled directly from their gods, as it is in all games with this kind of lore. All magical classes except elementalist, elemental magic, conveyed some aspect of a peticular god. Granted you could argue that these abilities are inate attributes to the world, but that brings us full circle back to the question of creation.

    Ultimately lore should not have to provide fringe gameplay elements. That is like providing a scientific explaination for using magic. When I read a book it never occurs to me to buck the authors established lore because it does not suite my personal beliefs or lack of belief. I simply ingrose myself in the setting and enjoy the ride.

    Personally I would rather than see the dev team spend more time on WvW. :) 

    If you read about the Greek creation myth, you'll realize that only some of the gods had a hand in the ordering of the universe, and not even the principle gods at that. Zeus and the rest of the Olympians were primarily children of the Titans, who themselves were created beings. In Norse mythology, it is the Giant Ymir, not the gods at all, who is primarily responsible for creating the world as we know it. And the principle gods such as Odin are in fact his descendants (Sort of).

    And once again, there is no evidence of an overriding divine plan in either of these pantheons. The gods merely do whatever strikes their fancy. It is only in monotheism that any kind of meta-narrative is being worked out.

  • ExilorExilor Las Palmas de Gran CanariaPosts: 391Member

    Originally posted by Diovidius

    Originally posted by Exilor


    Originally posted by Diovidius


    Originally posted by Exilor


    Originally posted by Diovidius


    Originally posted by Exilor

    It doesn't matter. Gods in a work of fiction don't have to conform to his or your criteria. ArenaNet made the gods of Tyria, and unless they reveal that it was a lie all along people can only change that in their own personal canon.

    It does matter. Anet never stated the human gods are gods from an objective point of view, Anet only stated that the humans view them as gods (and a few other races).

    http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/races/human/

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods_of_tyria

    http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gods_of_Tyria

    Look for your statement that says that "humans view them as gods". The phrase itself insinuates that they are not. But it doesn't say that, anywhere. They are described as the gods of the humans, the group of dieties worshipped by humans. Not powerful beings which humans believe to be gods.

    You do know that pretty much everything we know about the gods either comes from things said or written by humans or what was said by the gods (or their avatars) themselves right? Lore articles, dialogue, timelines it's all from a human point of view, GW1 in it's entirety was a human thing. As Ghosts of Ascalon shows in it's tale of the Foefire it matters a great deal who tells the story.

    And do you consider the Charr to be wrong in their assumption of the non-divinity of the gods? Grenth defeated a god without being a god himself. The players in GW1 defeated a god without being gods themselves (although it was a chained and weakened god and the players were blessed by other gods). Abbadon presumebly defeated a god without being a god himself. The Elder Dragons rival the power of the gods. In fact, Abbadon thought he could harm the other gods by bringing mortals (margonites) to their realm (a similar thing to what Dhuum and Menzies are doing in GW1).

    1. The wikis and the official website aren't quotes from human npcs.

    2. The charr do believe the human gods are gods. They want them destroyed anyway.

    3. Again, osiris in egyptian mythology was killed. Not all religions, in works of fiction or otherwise, have to be abrahamic-like just because it's more prevalent in our cultures.

    1. Read again, I wasn't just talking about quotes.

    2. So the charr do not consider them worthy of worship and think they can kill them but still view them as gods? As far as I know the charr always talk about the gods as the 'human gods' just like we can talk about a 'greek gods' without believing said gods exist.

    3. If your definition of gods stretches that far in a fantasy world where mortals can bend the very fabric of space (Lord Odran for example), then again I ask, what is the difference between powerful spellcasters and gods?

    1. I can't read what you didn't write. Please do.

    2.  Yes they do, precisely as you said. And they do believe the tyrian gods exist. That's what drove them to worship the titans, that they didn't have gods to call their own and humans did. Then, after the the fall of the shaman caste, they swore to never worship anyone again.

    3. I don't have to provide the diference. The very magic Lord Odran wielded was a gift from the gods, handed by Abaddon 1 year before the exile of the gods. The sentient races of tyria can only use magic because the gods felt inclined to give it to them.

  • CeridithCeridith Toronto, ONPosts: 2,980Member

    Sounds like the entire Defiant faction in Rift.

  • evolver1972evolver1972 Port Orchard, WAPosts: 1,118Member

    As shown on the OP's signature, the source of power for humans is "Divine"....as in "from the gods".  

     


    Just to recap, the sources of power of Guild Wars 2's races are:



    Norn: Shamanism

    Charr: Technology

    Asura: Magic

    Human: Divine

    Sylvari: Nature

     

    If the source of power for humans comes from the gods, then how can a human be a Naytheist?  They can't deny the gods' existence - to do so would negate the source of their own power.  And they can't fight against or slur the gods or else then they would be left without power.

     

    So, that would mean that the only professions the humans could be are the non-magical ones:  Warrior, Ranger, Thief, Engineer.  And they wouldn't be able to use any abilities from those 4 professions that would derive their power from the divine source, which would render then pretty weak when compared to the other races.

     

    On top of all that, I'm sure the devs don't have the time or inclination to ensure that a human character who wants to deny their source of power can only use classes, weapons, skills, etc. that use no divine power.   IMO it wouldn't make sense to allow human players to not automatically revere their gods since that is where they get their power.



    image

    You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

    Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  • ExilorExilor Las Palmas de Gran CanariaPosts: 391Member

    Originally posted by evolver1972

    As shown on the OP's signature, the source of power for humans is "Divine"....as in "from the gods".  

     


    Just to recap, the sources of power of Guild Wars 2's races are:



    Norn: Shamanism

    Charr: Technology

    Asura: Magic

    Human: Divine

    Sylvari: Nature

     

    If the source of power for humans comes from the gods, then how can a human be a Naytheist?  They can't deny the gods' existence - to do so would negate the source of their own power.  And they can't fight against or slur the gods or else then they would be left without power.

     

    So, that would mean that the only professions the humans could be are the non-magical ones:  Warrior, Ranger, Thief, Engineer.  And they wouldn't be able to use any abilities from those 4 professions that would derive their power from the divine source, which would render then pretty weak when compared to the other races.

     

    On top of all that, I'm sure the devs don't have the time or inclination to ensure that a human character who wants to deny their source of power can only use classes, weapons, skills, etc. that use no divine power.   IMO it wouldn't make sense to allow human players to not automatically revere their gods since that is where they get their power.



    That's not 100% correct. The charr can also use magic without worshipping any god, and so can the asura, the sylvari, even the krait. The charr don't use technology-powered magic, or the sylvari with nature-powered magic. Magic is magic, it belongs to any  (even remotely) sentient creature ever since the gods gifted them all with it.

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