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The Secret World: A Cash Shop Makes Sense

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  • shadow9d9shadow9d9 Boca Raton, FLPosts: 366Member

    Originally posted by Zadawn

    Originally posted by shadow9d9


    Originally posted by Zadawn


    Originally posted by shadow9d9


    Originally posted by Zadawn


    Originally posted by shadow9d9

    It is so sad to see some fans and others try to defend this.  The new trend in everything seems to be "don't fight it because it is inevitable" and the ridiculous assumption as fact "you'll still play it anyway."

    Gamers didn't fight DRM, and now there are schemes such as the upcoming Origin and Ubisoft's must login online even to play singleplayer.  Gamers aren't fighting DLC being withheld from games and released on the release date with the game separately.  

    We, as consumers, have the ability to mold the future of the industry.  We control what is allowed, by showing dissatisfaction with our wallets.  When we give up on that, we give the industry more and more to the monetary interests that have no interest in games and only have interest in money.. the bottom line...what more abuses and tricks can be used to take peoples' money.  It is never too late to show dissatisfaction and refuse to buy such products.  Everything, including DRM, DLC, and cash shops, on top of subscriptions and expansions, can be stopped.

    Asheron's Call had monthly updates with bug fixes, a storyline, added content, etc for free.  Look at what gamers have allowed to happen since.

     

    Take a stand and ignore the fans and other interests that work to allow these abuses.

    The majority of  all the gaming communities are made up of kids,which are EASY to trick,heck,it's not weven their money they spend.The devs know this and that;'s why it works.

    I am pretty sure the majority of computer gamers are now in their 30s... http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2011.pdf

    can you back it up?what you provided is null,kids don't bother completing quizes and the like.

    You made that assertive claim that most gamers are kids so it is up to you to provide proof, not me.  I simply was saying that according to that, they are in their 30s.

    True i can't back it up either but it is by nature more likely a kid would play a game than an adult with a full time job and possibly a family to take care of.You know this yourself.

    Don't tell me what I know and what I don't.  I know that I have money as an adult and still play plenty with a family.  Kids only have access to so much in funds.

  • saluksaluk seattle, WAPosts: 325Member

    Kids have school and homework too, it's not like they have unlimited free time. Less money, a bit more free time - roughly equal footing to an adult I'd say. Games though have had a tough time of growing out of the "games are for kids" or "games are for geeks" stigma. It wears away but slowly. Many adults in my peer group either never played, or grew out of it - this is a much bigger factor than not having time. The ones who enjoy playing games find time, or find the right game that fits their schedules.

    Another very poorly written article from mmorpg.com. It's not even about whether I agree with the viewpoint or not, but lately there have been a ton of articles which are very badly organized or stated. None of the content of the article tells me why a cash shop game for TSW makes sense. P2P+cash shop is happening though, and not just in this game. I think the game is good enough to be worth at least checking out. I will treat the cash shop like I always do - like it doesn't exist.

    I liked the hotel analogy. Why are you mad that your friend pays a little extra to get a tequila from the mini-fridge? If a tequila from a mini fridge is worth a bit extra to you, you have the same opportunity to pay for it. If it's not worth it, don't buy it. Nothing in paying for the room says that you will have access to free tequila. If it's a nice hotel, I will still go away from the hotel with a nice impression of it, and probably recommend it.

    If they charge extra for pillows I will find another motel. And of course, motels with complementary tequilas get bonus points - but I think we are headed to a world where that is a rarity.

    By all means though, if this is an important issue to you, don't give funcom/ea your money on this one. Just don't throw rotten eggs at me if I do.

  • rpgalonrpgalon canilPosts: 430Member

    -The cash shop is vanity only.

    -Ragnar said that the vanity itens can be obtained in-game, without using real life money.

    -EA has no word in this game, please, stop citing "EA" in anything TSW related that has nothing to do with publishing.

     

     

    many games have a P2P + CS it is not funcom alone, so please, stop with the funcom hate.

    &

    if you don't like it this way, please, stop bitching, just go away.

  • laseritlaserit Vancouver, BCPosts: 1,933Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by rpgalon

    -The cash shop is vanity only.

    -Ragnar said that the vanity itens can be obtained in-game, without using real life money.

    -EA has no word in this game, please, stop citing "EA" in anything TSW related that has nothing to do with publishing.

     

     

    many games have a P2P + CS it is not funcom alone, so please, stop with the funcom hate.

    &

    if you don't like it this way, please, stop bitching, just go away.

     Funcom hate?

    All I read here is a debate over p2p with a cash shop

    just go away? go away from what?

    "If you make an ass out of yourself, there will always be someone to ride you." - Bruce Lee

  • shadow9d9shadow9d9 Boca Raton, FLPosts: 366Member

    Originally posted by rpgalon

    -The cash shop is vanity only.

    -Ragnar said that the vanity itens can be obtained in-game, without using real life money.

    -EA has no word in this game, please, stop citing "EA" in anything TSW related that has nothing to do with publishing.

     

     

    many games have a P2P + CS it is not funcom alone, so please, stop with the funcom hate.

    &

    if you don't like it this way, please, stop bitching, just go away.

    If you can't handle different opinions, then you should be the one that goes away.

  • SulaaSulaa nPosts: 1,151Member Common

    Originally posted by rpgalon

     many games have a P2P + CS it is not funcom alone, so please, stop with the funcom hate.

    &

    if you don't like it this way, please, stop bitching, just go away.

    I see more like hate towards P2P+CS not towards Funcom especially.  Another thing is that most P2P games don't release with CS  but add it years later (don't make it much better but still) and definately don't plan making such big revenue source from it. (35% of subscription revenue).

     

    &

     

    This is open forum, get used that many people will have diffrent opinions and that they will state it many times.

    Also stop QQ about other people QQ'ing.

    Consider going away yourself.

  • HurricanePipHurricanePip Sommerille, MAPosts: 167Member

    Make it more about name changes, server transfers and the like.

    Charging people for wanting to play with their friends because the game is designed like an MMO from 2002 is awful.  One of the best things Rift did was to stop charging for this.  It's nickle and diming at its worst and it's neither good for the company nor the players.

    Friends keep friends playing and anything ... ANYTHING .... that creates a barrier to solving that business and game design problem is bad.  Basic economics.

    If you don't worry about it, it's not a problem.

  • MoiraeMoirae New Orleans, LAPosts: 2,743Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by laserit

    Originally posted by Monofox


    Originally posted by Sulaa


    Originally posted by Monofox

    It seems to me that the MMORPG community at large has gone awry. Its sad to me to see so many MMO players getting so wound up by this cashshop stuff.

    As long as the items available to be bought on the cash shop are nothing more than vanity items, (I.E. different looks on items, character renames, character reskins/armor coloring, etc..) I dont see a problem with it. I want one sensible person to give me an arguement on why a cash shop selling vanity items only is a gamebreaking problem.

    As I have been going through the posts up to this point, it seems to me that the arguement being made is that "Im paying for the game, I want to have access to EVERY ITEM IN THE GAME". This is absolutly absurd! If the game has just as much content  at release as any other MMO rpg, then what is the harm in having some VANITY items only available to buy on the cash shop. Are players nowadays really THAT concieted that they believe that they have the right to every item that the company releases just for paying a set fee that everyone else pays? It amazes me that this is what it has come to. 

    If you have one of the best item sets in the game, and looking around, you see a player with a vanity item (wings, colored armor, etc) there is no reason why you should think, "Hey, Ive put less money into this game, I deserve that item as much as he does". The game will more than likely have items that are very difficult to obtain, so if you are one of those "I like to be different and have something very few players have" kind of person (myself included), then there will always be those kind of items to get. You just cant see players with items bought from the store and say "I deserve that", they payed for it, they deserve the item. 

    Please someone come up with a decently thought out arguement and reply to this post.

    Every person has it's own reasons and what is a valid reason for me ,might seem irrational or comletly illogical to you.

    For me , I want to immerse myself into world, so after I log in I don't wanna see price tag on ANYTHING even if it is just a fluff item.

    Besides that players are at least theoreticaly equal in game. Of course someone want to send more time ,someone want to send more , someone want to send more but cannot , someone has worse internet connection so his lag it bigger ,etc - true , total equality is not possible.

    Still there is clear distinction between things like that and selling in-game things for cash. I want that inequality in life is not transfered to a game ,so you cannot buy any advantage for cash. Be it visual advantage or sign of status as well - with fluff cosmetic items as well. (sure pl buy gold illegally ,etc but they do risk fraud, ban and other unleasant things , still I hate it but there is big diffrence between doing it ilegally and beign it official part of game used by much more players).

    Another reason is that boundaries are beign tested by game developers , layers agree to P2P+vanity cash shop now? You will have P2P+advantage cash shop in next year or in next game.

    Last but not least item shops never end on vanity items. WoW is an exception becasue first of all it added cash shop after how much? 6 years after release? next there is very few items there.  . Not to mention that this IS in WoW is not meant to get 35% of subscrition revenue like TSW is going to. I don't like it and I don't play WoW

    Also TSW officialy said that their item shop will be MOSTLY offering cosmetic and fluff so there will be some advantage items.

    One more thing. It is matter of principles for me and I won't agree for above and for many more other minor reasons to be double dipped.

    The REASON I pay subscrition is also to avoid ANY future exenses beside paying for big content expasnions.

    So for me P2P+IS = no go ,even if that mean me not playing mmorpg's anymore and I AM aware that It might be the case.

    Ill start here. Vanity items are in NO way giving players an advantage over one another. You are not buying an advantage with cash, you are buy a different look with it. The word Advantage implies that you will have some sort higher opportunity of success. Vanity items do not give this to a player. If you are the kind of person that looks at the guy next to you and is jealous that his shoes are brown while you just bought black ones, then you really need to learn to live with that kind of thing. Your black shoes are just  as good as his brown ones.

    This is a typical "slippery slope" arguement is within itself a logical fallacy. You cannot assume that because players are ok with P2P+CS, that they will also be ok with P2W. This is one of the most commonly used fallacies, so ill forgive you ;)

    Cash shops can Certainly stop at vanity items. Take League of Legends for an example. Their cash shop has only sold vanity items, and the have expressly stated that it will only EVER sell vanity items. WoW can still be an example here, WoW has implemented a CS and it refuses to sell non vanity items because they know that the players would cause chaos if they did. 

    If you want to avoid paying for the game, then by all means do so. You are not being FORCED to pay extra money for anything in the game. The game can be played 100% as well without paying for anything in the CS. Dont pay if you dont want to. 

     Some of us believe that when you pay for a sub... it should include all the content available to anyone and everyone, earned and collected from playing and paying for the game.

    You can put what ever kind of sugar coating you want on it.

    If it looks like chit and it smell's like chit... it probably is chit.

    Bang, you and Suula hit it square in the middle. 

  • MoiraeMoirae New Orleans, LAPosts: 2,743Member Uncommon

    What hate toward Funcom? its just a game company and its not like they pulled an SOE on anyone. I could care less about Funcom. I do care about cash shops versus pay to play and thats what I've been talking about. 

  • FailtrainFailtrain QueenstownPosts: 129Member

    I see this as becoming how APB: Reloaded is now. They take all the REALLY cool items that you will REALLY want out of the game and put them in the cash shop, forcing you to play the game as a sad panda, or play the game as a sad panda with a lot less money.

    Now if APB had a monthly subscription I would tell them to get F****** but it's F2P so I can understand. TSW, on the other hand, wants me to pay a monthly fee as well.

    If I can't get the items in-game or if they make it take a ridiculous amount of time to get them, then I won't be playing and I really hope that nobody will support that either.

  • Short-StrawShort-Straw Berthoud, COPosts: 422Member

    I remember a general thread like this about 6 months ago. I was on the 'if it doesn't affect gameplay side, who cares?" After going back and forth with various posters, I came over to their side. Subscription is premium service. If I'm paying a premium to play a game, I should get the whole game. If Funcom wants to include cash shop items, they should include it in the premium sub. They could also have a lower nonpremium sub where you can purchase cash shop items.

    In the long run, I think Funcom's planned business model will hurt them. They may get more cash initially but, less players (myself included). Less players means less long term subs and less game fun when your looking for a group to do something.

    I know it's just a game but, when somebody's business practice bothers me, I stop using that business. Funcom or Walmart.

    image

  • abyss610abyss610 northern cambria, PAPosts: 1,131Member

    ...... no surprise that MMORPG.com is in favor of being grabbed by the ankles and shook upside down till our pockets are empty. this site has gone downhill sooo bad over the years.

    well looks like the only game i was really looking forward to is out, really disgusts me where MMOs are heading. starting to look like i need to find a new hobby altogether. vote with my wallet and all that..

  • WSIMikeWSIMike Catskill, NYPosts: 5,564Member

    Originally posted by Kabaal

    I find the article quite preposterous. The only thing mentioned to justify the title of it was the statement that we pay for cosmetic items in the real world, how exactly does that mean it makes sense we pay for them in a subscription based video game?

    Under the same thinking we should be paying money for :

    Health Potions - We pay for medical treatment in the ral world

    Food - We pay for our groceries in the real world

    Transport - We pay for public and private transport in the real world

    Leveling/skilling up - We pay for education in the real world

    etc etc

    That list makes about as much sense as the article, none.

    Don't give them any ideas.

    "If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road,
    and the cash shop selling asphalt..."
    - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops

    image

  • keglokeglo Springfield, MOPosts: 38Member

    Well I was looking very forward to this game but they just killed it for me. This is VERY dissapointing! If a game is Pay to Play then it should NOT have a cash shop, period! Cash shops should be reserved for the F2P market only. Doing this just showes me that all they are worried about is milking it for every thing they can. I hope enough people pass on the game that it will send a message. Shame on you Funcome and EA. Now I have no MMO to be excited about.

  • KnyttaKnytta Corning, NYPosts: 348Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Kyleran

     

    Funny thing is, I had nothing to do with it, but somehow the Developers figured out that my market niche exists and is starting to cater to it. Sucks to be you...but hey... I've been sucking it up for years now. 

    Just like I had to let go of my desire for group oriented MMORPG's in order to keep playing, you face the same decision with regards to cash shop/P2P games.  Pay or go home is really the only option either of us has.

    I do not see any  problem with this subscription model at all. I guess that a lot of people on this site wholly underestimate the numbers and the market power of people like me and Kyleran. If I only have time to play 6 hours a week I want those hours to be fun and exiting and if I can pay a bit more to have that I will. I totally understand that lots  of people  do not see it that way, but this is my hobby too and i want to play it the way I like, not having to obey some "Ideal game" idea of doing things.

     

    Chi puo dir com'egli arde é in picciol fuoco.

    He who can describe the flame does not burn.

    Petrarch


  • KnyttaKnytta Corning, NYPosts: 348Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Monofox

    If you have one of the best item sets in the game, and looking around, you see a player with a vanity item (wings, colored armor, etc) there is no reason why you should think, "Hey, Ive put less money into this game, I deserve that item as much as he does". The game will more than likely have items that are very difficult to obtain, so if you are one of those "I like to be different and have something very few players have" kind of person (myself included), then there will always be those kind of items to get. You just cant see players with items bought from the store and say "I deserve that", they payed for it, they deserve the item. 

    Please someone come up with a decently thought out arguement and reply to this post.

    Very good post, the whole thing seems (IMHO) that there is an expectation among lots of the gaming population that a significant part of the sub base for any game really should "pay their dues" and "do not complain about what they get for that sub" I would love to see a major developer put in a sub based on time in game so people like me can pay for the time we actually play and the hardcore players pay for their time in game.

    Chi puo dir com'egli arde é in picciol fuoco.

    He who can describe the flame does not burn.

    Petrarch


  • NesrieNesrie Medford, ORPosts: 648Member

    Not even the pay to win games admit they are pay to win. I'll wait to see with this one.

    parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.

  • monstermmomonstermmo Glendale, CAPosts: 1,062Member

    Cash shop in a game with a subscription fee is disgusting.

    That means you too WoW, Lineage 2 and Aion.

    Screw you guys im goin home.

     

    It seems obvious to me that the people that support this kind of complete and utter bull**** are young teens, gamers that did not come from a time where DLC was free and called "patches" instead.

    Jeremiah 8:21 I weep for the hurt of my people; I stand amazed, silent, dumb with grief.
    Join me on Raptr Steam Facebook Twitter Gameverse

  • CeridithCeridith Toronto, ONPosts: 2,980Member

    Originally posted by Knytta

    Originally posted by Kyleran


     

    Funny thing is, I had nothing to do with it, but somehow the Developers figured out that my market niche exists and is starting to cater to it. Sucks to be you...but hey... I've been sucking it up for years now. 

    Just like I had to let go of my desire for group oriented MMORPG's in order to keep playing, you face the same decision with regards to cash shop/P2P games.  Pay or go home is really the only option either of us has.

    I do not see any  problem with this subscription model at all. I guess that a lot of people on this site wholly underestimate the numbers and the market power of people like me and Kyleran. If I only have time to play 6 hours a week I want those hours to be fun and exiting and if I can pay a bit more to have that I will. I totally understand that lots  of people  do not see it that way, but this is my hobby too and i want to play it the way I like, not having to obey some "Ideal game" idea of doing things.

     

    Wouldn't it make more sense to play an MMO designed expressly for casual gamers, rather than playing an MMO designed to be casual unfriendly and having to pay extra to get rid of intentially designed inconveniences?

  • KisraKisra CairoPosts: 8Member

    I don't like/play f2p game coz of the cash shop so if TSW going to make cash shop for whatever reason even if its going to be

    p2p it will be EPIC FAIL even if the cash shop will be only for fashion (cloth)  

    F2P are suck coz most of them count on who welling to pay more in cash shop

    P2P for me we all are equal and all what you get with you character you earn it by playing not with extra $$

    short story i dont like to play  P2P game and i see someone getting things which he didn't play for it .....

  • laseritlaserit Vancouver, BCPosts: 1,933Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Knytta

    Originally posted by Monofox

    If you have one of the best item sets in the game, and looking around, you see a player with a vanity item (wings, colored armor, etc) there is no reason why you should think, "Hey, Ive put less money into this game, I deserve that item as much as he does". The game will more than likely have items that are very difficult to obtain, so if you are one of those "I like to be different and have something very few players have" kind of person (myself included), then there will always be those kind of items to get. You just cant see players with items bought from the store and say "I deserve that", they payed for it, they deserve the item. 

    Please someone come up with a decently thought out arguement and reply to this post.

    Very good post, the whole thing seems (IMHO) that there is an expectation among lots of the gaming population that a significant part of the sub base for any game really should "pay their dues" and "do not complain about what they get for that sub" I would love to see a major developer put in a sub based on time in game so people like me can pay for the time we actually play and the hardcore players pay for their time in game.

     I guess we just have different views on what a game is. I'm not a hardcore player by any means, I play games for entertainment. I grew up long before video games, back in the days of board games. When you would sit at a table with a group of people, look them in the eye and play fair and square.

    To me... a game is not about the pixels you collect, it's not about winning or losing, it's about the fun and enjoyment you get from the game. It makes you feel really good, deep down inside, when you accomplish something that was really hard to do. The loot is secondary... I could really give a flying @#&;%

    I don't know... gam'es to me are all about playing them, not about buying shit, to me it just cheapen's the game. Times have truly changed.

    Instead of waiting till you land on Boardwalk to buy it.... If you give me $10 you can have it right now.

    Each to their own I guess

    "If you make an ass out of yourself, there will always be someone to ride you." - Bruce Lee

  • fyerwallfyerwall Posts: 3,155Member Uncommon

    Game companies have learned over the last few years that no matter how much people complain about it, they will still spend the money if given the option.

    Hell, people were selling/buying items in MMOs for real money since forever (people selling keeps/houses in UO, plat sales via shady sites and eventually ebay for EQ shortly after its launch in 99... the list goes on...). Enough people have shown they are willing to spend real money for virtual items to make companies ask "So why don't we?". 

    Funny thing is, I am willing to bet 4 out of 5 people crusading against cash shops in subscription MMOs are guilty of spending more than $15 a month in said shops. Not because they have to, but because they can.

    So you can't really pin sole blame on the companies - It's the players you have to blame. They are the ones who made gold farmers big business, the ones who ate up $25 sparkle ponies, who spend $5-$10 on DLC packs, and the ones who gave virtual items real monetary value. The companies are just giving the players what they want.

    Because sadly, we asked for it...

    There are 3 types of people in the world.
    1.) Those who make things happen
    2.) Those who watch things happen
    3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"


    image

  • shadow9d9shadow9d9 Boca Raton, FLPosts: 366Member

    Originally posted by fyerwall

    Game companies have learned over the last few years that no matter how much people complain about it, they will still spend the money if given the option.

    Hell, people were selling/buying items in MMOs for real money since forever (people selling keeps/houses in UO, plat sales via shady sites and eventually ebay for EQ shortly after its launch in 99... the list goes on...). Enough people have shown they are willing to spend real money for virtual items to make companies ask "So why don't we?". 

    Funny thing is, I am willing to bet 4 out of 5 people crusading against cash shops in subscription MMOs are guilty of spending more than $15 a month in said shops. Not because they have to, but because they can.

    So you can't really pin sole blame on the companies - It's the players you have to blame. They are the ones who made gold farmers big business, the ones who ate up $25 sparkle ponies, who spend $5-$10 on DLC packs, and the ones who gave virtual items real monetary value. The companies are just giving the players what they want.

    Because sadly, we asked for it...

    You can bet whatever you'd like.  I have never once bought anything in a cash shop in any game.  I have also never bought DLC.  I have also never bought an Ubisoft game since they went insane with DRM.

  • LhynnSaintLhynnSaint CordobaPosts: 119Member

    Why do people even care? just dont play it, eventually it will go free AND THEN people will play it.

    Its not about what the devs do, its how we, as customers, spend our money.

     

    If we just open our wallets they will keep trying to take our money.

  • fyerwallfyerwall Posts: 3,155Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by shadow9d9

    Originally posted by fyerwall

    Game companies have learned over the last few years that no matter how much people complain about it, they will still spend the money if given the option.

    Hell, people were selling/buying items in MMOs for real money since forever (people selling keeps/houses in UO, plat sales via shady sites and eventually ebay for EQ shortly after its launch in 99... the list goes on...). Enough people have shown they are willing to spend real money for virtual items to make companies ask "So why don't we?". 

    Funny thing is, I am willing to bet 4 out of 5 people crusading against cash shops in subscription MMOs are guilty of spending more than $15 a month in said shops. Not because they have to, but because they can.

    So you can't really pin sole blame on the companies - It's the players you have to blame. They are the ones who made gold farmers big business, the ones who ate up $25 sparkle ponies, who spend $5-$10 on DLC packs, and the ones who gave virtual items real monetary value. The companies are just giving the players what they want.

    Because sadly, we asked for it...

    You can bet whatever you'd like.  I have never once bought anything in a cash shop in any game.  I have also never bought DLC.  I have also never bought an Ubisoft game since they went insane with DRM.

    You might not have, but then again how are we to know for sure?

    What people say and what people do don't always line up. The world is full of hypocrits.

    Now I am not saying you are lying or that you have/haven't done anything you listed above. Just pointing out that just because someone says something doesn't mean they actually do it.

    There are 3 types of people in the world.
    1.) Those who make things happen
    2.) Those who watch things happen
    3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"


    image

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