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I think I'm done :(

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Comments

  • JimmacJimmac TXPosts: 1,667Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by seansean

    Well, I've about had it. I've played all kinds of MMORPG's, EVE, EQ2, vanguard, ryzom, AOC, anarchy online, global agenda, beyond protocol, black prophecy, neocron 2(the best of them all, by a wide margin) SWG, matrix online, and many more.

    nothing holds my interest. I've spent a lot of time, money and so on. it feels like I'm playing the same game over and over, with a different skin. EVE is a standout; but CCP lost my trust. once you're down to arguing about monocles, I pick up a book, ya know?

    I'm the problem; my mind needs to be engaged(EVE did that but it's going down), I like sci-fi, I like flying things, I like virtual open worlds, I like persistence, I like player housing, but(and I can't stress this enough) IF I SEE ONE MORE FUCKING ELF IN MY LIFE I WILL GO ON A  JIHAD. I can't take it anymore. plus MMO's seem to all be going P2W, not just P2P. guess its time to hang it up. hell even SWTOR, with all the money in the world to spend, decided that a STAR WARS game should have space on rails. WTF..

    fuck it. I swear to christ imma play magic: the gathering...

     I feel pretty similar.

    I'd recommend some MTGO Pauper, maybe even Pauper standard. Check out http://pdcmagic.com/ for lots of great info. There are free player tournaments with actual prizes. Great community. Decks only cost dollars. And best of all, the meta is just as competitive as any of format, and the meta is incredibly diverse.

  • marcustmarcust AdelaidePosts: 467Member Uncommon

    I'm starting to believe its the toolsets required to make MMO's thats hurting the genre.

    The real question is: why does it cost so much to make even the most basic "on rails" game?

    Whoever comes up with the next generation toolset that cuts development costs by a factor of 10 will inspire the next generation of MMO's.

    Some of the most interesting steps have been taken by the Darkfall, MO and Minecraft teams. One built their own toolset, one leveraged off API's and one went very basic. Two of them are not doing all that well now, but at least they gave it a go.

    So the question becomes, why are there not people out there trying to develop the next generation toolset.

    Imagine if every author had to reinvent publishing to get a book out, we wouldnt see a lot of books.

     

      

    Playing: ESO, Submerged
    Favourite games have been: UO, Lineage2, WoW, Darkfall, Lotro, GW2

  • JoliustJoliust stoughton, WIPosts: 1,329Member

    Just don't play anything, don't follow developments, don't do anything. One day, years later, you may hear about a game that peeks your interest. It will snow ball and you will play it. You will have a good few months at least in the game. Better yet, you won't waste your time and money on things that you don't enjoy right now.

    Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.

  • TesinatoTesinato Berlin, NJPosts: 222Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by marcust

    I'm starting to believe its the toolsets required to make MMO's thats hurting the genre.

    The real question is: why does it cost so much to make even the most basic "on rails" game?

    Whoever comes up with the next generation toolset that cuts development costs by a factor of 10 will inspire the next generation of MMO's.

    Some of the most interesting steps have been taken by the Darkfall, MO and Minecraft teams. One built their own toolset, one leveraged off API's and one went very basic. Two of them are not doing all that well now, but at least they gave it a go.

    So the question becomes, why are there not people out there trying to develop the next generation toolset.

    Imagine if every author had to reinvent publishing to get a book out, we wouldnt see a lot of books.

     

      

    I assume it costs so much due to the amount of Dev's required to make it.  A game like Minecraft is 1/1000 of a shot there, most game companies that only have 1-2 devs don't really do well, and definitely don't do it quickly.  Some of that cost to has to go to whoever's IP it belongs to.  In the case of SwTOR, Lucas Arts probably wants something for the IP, so that gets factored in as well. 

    Honestly, I still think it is pretty insane to spend 50-100 miilion dollars on anything, especially a game that generally only has enough content for 2-3 months worth.  Rift for instance is a good example of this.  Took me about a month or so to get to 50, and another 3-4 weeks to be T2 geared, and ready for raiding.  After all the politics and such involved with all that, i hung my hat up, but still, 2 months and I saw 85% of the game.  It baffles me that for that much money, we get so little in terms of gameplay.

  • Amazon_GamerAmazon_Gamer Amazon.com Digital Video Games Group Seattle, WAPosts: 10Member

    Originally posted by Shadowlord10

    Originally posted by marcust

    I'm starting to believe its the toolsets required to make MMO's thats hurting the genre.

    The real question is: why does it cost so much to make even the most basic "on rails" game?

    Whoever comes up with the next generation toolset that cuts development costs by a factor of 10 will inspire the next generation of MMO's.

    Some of the most interesting steps have been taken by the Darkfall, MO and Minecraft teams. One built their own toolset, one leveraged off API's and one went very basic. Two of them are not doing all that well now, but at least they gave it a go.

    So the question becomes, why are there not people out there trying to develop the next generation toolset.

    Imagine if every author had to reinvent publishing to get a book out, we wouldnt see a lot of books.

     

      

    I assume it costs so much due to the amount of Dev's required to make it.  A game like Minecraft is 1/1000 of a shot there, most game companies that only have 1-2 devs don't really do well, and definitely don't do it quickly.  Some of that cost to has to go to whoever's IP it belongs to.  In the case of SwTOR, Lucas Arts probably wants something for the IP, so that gets factored in as well. 

    Honestly, I still think it is pretty insane to spend 50-100 miilion dollars on anything, especially a game that generally only has enough content for 2-3 months worth.  Rift for instance is a good example of this.  Took me about a month or so to get to 50, and another 3-4 weeks to be T2 geared, and ready for raiding.  After all the politics and such involved with all that, i hung my hat up, but still, 2 months and I saw 85% of the game.  It baffles me that for that much money, we get so little in terms of gameplay.

    I guess my question is, what DO you expect when you start to play something like Rift or any other new MMO. It sounds like you liked it enough to buy the game ($50?), play for 2 months ($30?) and played for 2 months worth of game. When a dev pumps a few million into a game are expecting a solid 6 months to a year of gameplay at launch? I'm genuinely curious because most AAA titles that cost $40-$60 don't provide 2 months of content (not for me at least) without DLC.

    I'm genuinely curious because, like most of the people on this thread I have found myself drifting from MMO to MMO at a rate of more than 1 transition per year, and I can't figure out what about the games doesn't hold my attention.

    I played DAOC for YEARS and the only reason I don't pick it back up is because the community just doesn't seem to be there anymore.

    Awesome post by the way, interested to hear your thoughts.

    Cheers,

    Tony

  • TesinatoTesinato Berlin, NJPosts: 222Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Amazon_Gamer

    Originally posted by Shadowlord10


    Originally posted by marcust

    I'm starting to believe its the toolsets required to make MMO's thats hurting the genre.

    The real question is: why does it cost so much to make even the most basic "on rails" game?

    Whoever comes up with the next generation toolset that cuts development costs by a factor of 10 will inspire the next generation of MMO's.

    Some of the most interesting steps have been taken by the Darkfall, MO and Minecraft teams. One built their own toolset, one leveraged off API's and one went very basic. Two of them are not doing all that well now, but at least they gave it a go.

    So the question becomes, why are there not people out there trying to develop the next generation toolset.

    Imagine if every author had to reinvent publishing to get a book out, we wouldnt see a lot of books.

     

      

    I assume it costs so much due to the amount of Dev's required to make it.  A game like Minecraft is 1/1000 of a shot there, most game companies that only have 1-2 devs don't really do well, and definitely don't do it quickly.  Some of that cost to has to go to whoever's IP it belongs to.  In the case of SwTOR, Lucas Arts probably wants something for the IP, so that gets factored in as well. 

    Honestly, I still think it is pretty insane to spend 50-100 miilion dollars on anything, especially a game that generally only has enough content for 2-3 months worth.  Rift for instance is a good example of this.  Took me about a month or so to get to 50, and another 3-4 weeks to be T2 geared, and ready for raiding.  After all the politics and such involved with all that, i hung my hat up, but still, 2 months and I saw 85% of the game.  It baffles me that for that much money, we get so little in terms of gameplay.

    I guess my question is, what DO you expect when you start to play something like Rift or any other new MMO. It sounds like you liked it enough to buy the game ($50?), play for 2 months ($30?) and played for 2 months worth of game. When a dev pumps a few million into a game are expecting a solid 6 months to a year of gameplay at launch? I'm genuinely curious because most AAA titles that cost $40-$60 don't provide 2 months of content (not for me at least) without DLC.

    I'm genuinely curious because, like most of the people on this thread I have found myself drifting from MMO to MMO at a rate of more than 1 transition per year, and I can't figure out what about the games doesn't hold my attention.

    I played DAOC for YEARS and the only reason I don't pick it back up is because the community just doesn't seem to be there anymore.

    Awesome post by the way, interested to hear your thoughts.

    Cheers,

    Tony

    Personally speaking. I got it because my wife and her guild wanted to play, and I wanted to play with them.  Rift in particular isn't my cup of tea most times, but what it did do was pretty decent.  The story wasn't too bad, gameplay was sadly too easy for my tastes, and leveling was way too fast for me.  I outleveled zones constantly, and it just felt like a blur.  I do expect 6 months to a year of content yes.  And why shouldn't I or any other gamer.  Realistically if a game company wants to recoup their money invested into their project, shouldn't there be content to keep us hooked and interested?

    If you go back some time ago, there were games that took at least a year or so to reach max level, and it is was far more about the journey getting there, not the start of the game.  FFXI is the big one I remember.  DoAC and AC was pretty decent as well as far as time went.  Horizons (Now known as Istaria) is also in the same vein.  They had far different systems in place, it took a bit to get somewhere, and there was so much content that you could keep yourself busy for at least 6 months min.

    Take a look at today's games.  Do we have any that can stand up to that?   I hear the same things on many forums that End-Game is the game, not the journey to the end.  I know a good bit of the MMO community love raiding, and are ok with the demands that it requires.  But there is a big section that seems to desire something that is more geared towards original ideas, and something just different.  I know that I want something different.  I cycle through about 4-6 mmo's a year, which is sad.  Maybe playing for 12 years has burned me out on the genre, but I would love to hope that it is just due to the lack of creativity.

  • TridianTridian Plainfield, INPosts: 274Member

    Originally posted by seansean

    Well, I've about had it. I've played all kinds of MMORPG's, EVE, EQ2, vanguard, ryzom, AOC, anarchy online, global agenda, beyond protocol, black prophecy, neocron 2(the best of them all, by a wide margin) SWG, matrix online, and many more.

    nothing holds my interest. I've spent a lot of time, money and so on. it feels like I'm playing the same game over and over, with a different skin. EVE is a standout; but CCP lost my trust. once you're down to arguing about monocles, I pick up a book, ya know?

    I'm the problem; my mind needs to be engaged(EVE did that but it's going down), I like sci-fi, I like flying things, I like virtual open worlds, I like persistence, I like player housing, but(and I can't stress this enough) IF I SEE ONE MORE FUCKING ELF IN MY LIFE I WILL GO ON A  JIHAD. I can't take it anymore. plus MMO's seem to all be going P2W, not just P2P. guess its time to hang it up. hell even SWTOR, with all the money in the world to spend, decided that a STAR WARS game should have space on rails. WTF..

    fuck it. I swear to christ imma play magic: the gathering...

     AHAHAHAHA little tipsy but i lost it when i read that sentence. Yet i agree with ya. All the games are cookie cutters nowadays. Im sticking with some fps and riding my bike a lot while its nice.

  • aspekxaspekx Brandon, FLPosts: 2,167Member

    Originally posted by Phry

    Originally posted by DSBHR


    Originally posted by Karahandras

    can't say i disagree with the sentiment

    Sad but true.  Sad but true. 

     

    However it is a nice day outside.  I would hope something good comes online before the snows hit though.

    well, i can understand the guys viewpoint, and i don't especially disagree.. and.. lately.. its been pretty good spending some time doing a bit of gardening.. who knows.. maybe something will come along before the winter sets in.. TSW might be the one.. maybe.. im keeping fingers crossed.. but im not exactly filled with enthusiasm about it..image

    i will admit that i am still playing, but at the same time...i think ive got some rosetta stone spanish tutorials around here somewhere....

    "There are at least two kinds of games.
    One could be called finite, the other infinite.
    A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
    an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
    Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  • CarnifexRexCarnifexRex Bullhead, AZPosts: 52Member

    Originally posted by seansean

    IF I SEE ONE MORE FUCKING ELF IN MY LIFE I WILL GO ON A  JIHAD.

    Best. Quote. Ever.

  • Amazon_GamerAmazon_Gamer Amazon.com Digital Video Games Group Seattle, WAPosts: 10Member

    Originally posted by Shadowlord10

    Originally posted by Amazon_Gamer


    Originally posted by Shadowlord10


    Originally posted by marcust

    I'm starting to believe its the toolsets required to make MMO's thats hurting the genre.

    The real question is: why does it cost so much to make even the most basic "on rails" game?

    Whoever comes up with the next generation toolset that cuts development costs by a factor of 10 will inspire the next generation of MMO's.

    Some of the most interesting steps have been taken by the Darkfall, MO and Minecraft teams. One built their own toolset, one leveraged off API's and one went very basic. Two of them are not doing all that well now, but at least they gave it a go.

    So the question becomes, why are there not people out there trying to develop the next generation toolset.

    Imagine if every author had to reinvent publishing to get a book out, we wouldnt see a lot of books.

     

      

    I assume it costs so much due to the amount of Dev's required to make it.  A game like Minecraft is 1/1000 of a shot there, most game companies that only have 1-2 devs don't really do well, and definitely don't do it quickly.  Some of that cost to has to go to whoever's IP it belongs to.  In the case of SwTOR, Lucas Arts probably wants something for the IP, so that gets factored in as well. 

    Honestly, I still think it is pretty insane to spend 50-100 miilion dollars on anything, especially a game that generally only has enough content for 2-3 months worth.  Rift for instance is a good example of this.  Took me about a month or so to get to 50, and another 3-4 weeks to be T2 geared, and ready for raiding.  After all the politics and such involved with all that, i hung my hat up, but still, 2 months and I saw 85% of the game.  It baffles me that for that much money, we get so little in terms of gameplay.

    I guess my question is, what DO you expect when you start to play something like Rift or any other new MMO. It sounds like you liked it enough to buy the game ($50?), play for 2 months ($30?) and played for 2 months worth of game. When a dev pumps a few million into a game are expecting a solid 6 months to a year of gameplay at launch? I'm genuinely curious because most AAA titles that cost $40-$60 don't provide 2 months of content (not for me at least) without DLC.

    I'm genuinely curious because, like most of the people on this thread I have found myself drifting from MMO to MMO at a rate of more than 1 transition per year, and I can't figure out what about the games doesn't hold my attention.

    I played DAOC for YEARS and the only reason I don't pick it back up is because the community just doesn't seem to be there anymore.

    Awesome post by the way, interested to hear your thoughts.

    Cheers,

    Tony

    Personally speaking. I got it because my wife and her guild wanted to play, and I wanted to play with them.  Rift in particular isn't my cup of tea most times, but what it did do was pretty decent.  The story wasn't too bad, gameplay was sadly too easy for my tastes, and leveling was way too fast for me.  I outleveled zones constantly, and it just felt like a blur.  I do expect 6 months to a year of content yes.  And why shouldn't I or any other gamer.  Realistically if a game company wants to recoup their money invested into their project, shouldn't there be content to keep us hooked and interested?

    If you go back some time ago, there were games that took at least a year or so to reach max level, and it is was far more about the journey getting there, not the start of the game.  FFXI is the big one I remember.  DoAC and AC was pretty decent as well as far as time went.  Horizons (Now known as Istaria) is also in the same vein.  They had far different systems in place, it took a bit to get somewhere, and there was so much content that you could keep yourself busy for at least 6 months min.

    Take a look at today's games.  Do we have any that can stand up to that?   I hear the same things on many forums that End-Game is the game, not the journey to the end.  I know a good bit of the MMO community love raiding, and are ok with the demands that it requires.  But there is a big section that seems to desire something that is more geared towards original ideas, and something just different.  I know that I want something different.  I cycle through about 4-6 mmo's a year, which is sad.  Maybe playing for 12 years has burned me out on the genre, but I would love to hope that it is just due to the lack of creativity.

    I don't want to sound contrite, because I'm legitimately digging for what it is that appeals to that group you reference. Like you said, I loved the journey in DAOC. I literally spent an ENTIRE spring break my sophomore year in high school leveling up in the Midgard Spider/Goblin caves (this was pre-expansion). I look back at those 10 levels as the pinnacle of my MMO experience. I had to put together a group and then hope no one was occupying the spot we wanted to hunt. Once we got a spot we stayed there for hours and hours and hours and then I would generally try to immediately hop into whatever group was queued up to follow us in that spot or start another group.

    How do you balance the experience I just described with mass marketablility? Should MMO developers make games for a small subset of the gaming community in the hopes that retention will be so stellar that they will be able to make enough money to be profitable?

    If easy games suck why do so many people play WOW, arguably the easiest game to level up in...ever?

    My opinion is that we, as MMO gamers, have gotten lazy. We want an engaging, awesome, community handed to us instead of trying to develop one. The most rewarding part of DAOC for me was always putting together the groups that made my experience awesome. I didn't rely on developers to do anything but skin up new sprites for me and my friends to kill.

    Juxtapose that statement with the general feel of most MMO criticism these days and I think you'll see that the shift has gone from "I can't find anyone cool to play with" to "the devs aren't giving me enough fun toys".

    Just my two cents. What do you think?

    Cheers,

    Tony

  • TesinatoTesinato Berlin, NJPosts: 222Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Amazon_Gamer

    Originally posted by Shadowlord10


    Originally posted by Amazon_Gamer


    Originally posted by Shadowlord10


    Originally posted by marcust

    I'm starting to believe its the toolsets required to make MMO's thats hurting the genre.

    The real question is: why does it cost so much to make even the most basic "on rails" game?

    Whoever comes up with the next generation toolset that cuts development costs by a factor of 10 will inspire the next generation of MMO's.

    Some of the most interesting steps have been taken by the Darkfall, MO and Minecraft teams. One built their own toolset, one leveraged off API's and one went very basic. Two of them are not doing all that well now, but at least they gave it a go.

    So the question becomes, why are there not people out there trying to develop the next generation toolset.

    Imagine if every author had to reinvent publishing to get a book out, we wouldnt see a lot of books.

     

      

    I assume it costs so much due to the amount of Dev's required to make it.  A game like Minecraft is 1/1000 of a shot there, most game companies that only have 1-2 devs don't really do well, and definitely don't do it quickly.  Some of that cost to has to go to whoever's IP it belongs to.  In the case of SwTOR, Lucas Arts probably wants something for the IP, so that gets factored in as well. 

    Honestly, I still think it is pretty insane to spend 50-100 miilion dollars on anything, especially a game that generally only has enough content for 2-3 months worth.  Rift for instance is a good example of this.  Took me about a month or so to get to 50, and another 3-4 weeks to be T2 geared, and ready for raiding.  After all the politics and such involved with all that, i hung my hat up, but still, 2 months and I saw 85% of the game.  It baffles me that for that much money, we get so little in terms of gameplay.

    I guess my question is, what DO you expect when you start to play something like Rift or any other new MMO. It sounds like you liked it enough to buy the game ($50?), play for 2 months ($30?) and played for 2 months worth of game. When a dev pumps a few million into a game are expecting a solid 6 months to a year of gameplay at launch? I'm genuinely curious because most AAA titles that cost $40-$60 don't provide 2 months of content (not for me at least) without DLC.

    I'm genuinely curious because, like most of the people on this thread I have found myself drifting from MMO to MMO at a rate of more than 1 transition per year, and I can't figure out what about the games doesn't hold my attention.

    I played DAOC for YEARS and the only reason I don't pick it back up is because the community just doesn't seem to be there anymore.

    Awesome post by the way, interested to hear your thoughts.

    Cheers,

    Tony

    Personally speaking. I got it because my wife and her guild wanted to play, and I wanted to play with them.  Rift in particular isn't my cup of tea most times, but what it did do was pretty decent.  The story wasn't too bad, gameplay was sadly too easy for my tastes, and leveling was way too fast for me.  I outleveled zones constantly, and it just felt like a blur.  I do expect 6 months to a year of content yes.  And why shouldn't I or any other gamer.  Realistically if a game company wants to recoup their money invested into their project, shouldn't there be content to keep us hooked and interested?

    If you go back some time ago, there were games that took at least a year or so to reach max level, and it is was far more about the journey getting there, not the start of the game.  FFXI is the big one I remember.  DoAC and AC was pretty decent as well as far as time went.  Horizons (Now known as Istaria) is also in the same vein.  They had far different systems in place, it took a bit to get somewhere, and there was so much content that you could keep yourself busy for at least 6 months min.

    Take a look at today's games.  Do we have any that can stand up to that?   I hear the same things on many forums that End-Game is the game, not the journey to the end.  I know a good bit of the MMO community love raiding, and are ok with the demands that it requires.  But there is a big section that seems to desire something that is more geared towards original ideas, and something just different.  I know that I want something different.  I cycle through about 4-6 mmo's a year, which is sad.  Maybe playing for 12 years has burned me out on the genre, but I would love to hope that it is just due to the lack of creativity.

    I don't want to sound contrite, because I'm legitimately digging for what it is that appeals to that group you reference. Like you said, I loved the journey in DAOC. I literally spent an ENTIRE spring break my sophomore year in high school leveling up in the Midgard Spider/Goblin caves (this was pre-expansion). I look back at those 10 levels as the pinnacle of my MMO experience. I had to put together a group and then hope no one was occupying the spot we wanted to hunt. Once we got a spot we stayed there for hours and hours and hours and then I would generally try to immediately hop into whatever group was queued up to follow us in that spot or start another group.

    How do you balance the experience I just described with mass marketablility? Should MMO developers make games for a small subset of the gaming community in the hopes that retention will be so stellar that they will be able to make enough money to be profitable?

    If easy games suck why do so many people play WOW, arguably the easiest game to level up in...ever?

    My opinion is that we, as MMO gamers, have gotten lazy. We want an engaging, awesome, community handed to us instead of trying to develop one. The most rewarding part of DAOC for me was always putting together the groups that made my experience awesome. I didn't rely on developers to do anything but skin up new sprites for me and my friends to kill.

    Juxtapose that statement with the general feel of most MMO criticism these days and I think you'll see that the shift has gone from "I can't find anyone cool to play with" to "the devs aren't giving me enough fun toys".

    Just my two cents. What do you think?

    Cheers,

    Tony

    You make a valid point.  Maybe it is just that the majority of people don't want that anymore.  We could just be a small subset in the mass of MMO gamers.  I remember what it was like back then too, and to me, that was the most fun I had in a game.  I played FFXI like 6 months or so ago, and while they made it a bit easier to level, barely anyone wanted to do actual parties.  It was either the Dunes, Qufim, or Abyssea.  It was really sad. 

    I remember foundly being in parties, treking to all kinds of exotic places to kill stuff with other groups, and having a blast, good conversation, and overall a great time.  I would log off and think, man that was fun, I can't wait until I can play again tomorrow.  I don't get that anymore.  Everyone seems concerned with "clearing content" or getting to max level, that they lose the whole reason the game is even made.  I wound up leaving FFXI because it was impossible to do anything else.  While the Dunes is fun, being level 42, sync'd down to 13 just to level some seems silly.  If i went to take on a level 35, I'd die just from the lack of skill training.

    Your point with WoW honestly hits it on the head.  Maybe it is just a sad day in the genre.  Maybe it is us older folks who remember the good times that are just so disgruntled it seems like it is more then it is.  Maybe there isn't any room for us anymore.  Aside from FFXI, the games that I remember being like that are all very small, and barely alive. You could be right that it is just us that are the problem, and not the folks dedicating their lives to creating these games.  Honestly, I think it is across all gaming platforms, not just MMO's.  I suppose it will be what it will be.

  • Amazon_GamerAmazon_Gamer Amazon.com Digital Video Games Group Seattle, WAPosts: 10Member

    Originally posted by Shadowlord10

    Originally posted by Amazon_Gamer


    Originally posted by Shadowlord10


    Originally posted by Amazon_Gamer


    Originally posted by Shadowlord10


    Originally posted by marcust

    I'm starting to believe its the toolsets required to make MMO's thats hurting the genre.

    The real question is: why does it cost so much to make even the most basic "on rails" game?

    Whoever comes up with the next generation toolset that cuts development costs by a factor of 10 will inspire the next generation of MMO's.

    Some of the most interesting steps have been taken by the Darkfall, MO and Minecraft teams. One built their own toolset, one leveraged off API's and one went very basic. Two of them are not doing all that well now, but at least they gave it a go.

    So the question becomes, why are there not people out there trying to develop the next generation toolset.

    Imagine if every author had to reinvent publishing to get a book out, we wouldnt see a lot of books.

     

      

    I assume it costs so much due to the amount of Dev's required to make it.  A game like Minecraft is 1/1000 of a shot there, most game companies that only have 1-2 devs don't really do well, and definitely don't do it quickly.  Some of that cost to has to go to whoever's IP it belongs to.  In the case of SwTOR, Lucas Arts probably wants something for the IP, so that gets factored in as well. 

    Honestly, I still think it is pretty insane to spend 50-100 miilion dollars on anything, especially a game that generally only has enough content for 2-3 months worth.  Rift for instance is a good example of this.  Took me about a month or so to get to 50, and another 3-4 weeks to be T2 geared, and ready for raiding.  After all the politics and such involved with all that, i hung my hat up, but still, 2 months and I saw 85% of the game.  It baffles me that for that much money, we get so little in terms of gameplay.

    I guess my question is, what DO you expect when you start to play something like Rift or any other new MMO. It sounds like you liked it enough to buy the game ($50?), play for 2 months ($30?) and played for 2 months worth of game. When a dev pumps a few million into a game are expecting a solid 6 months to a year of gameplay at launch? I'm genuinely curious because most AAA titles that cost $40-$60 don't provide 2 months of content (not for me at least) without DLC.

    I'm genuinely curious because, like most of the people on this thread I have found myself drifting from MMO to MMO at a rate of more than 1 transition per year, and I can't figure out what about the games doesn't hold my attention.

    I played DAOC for YEARS and the only reason I don't pick it back up is because the community just doesn't seem to be there anymore.

    Awesome post by the way, interested to hear your thoughts.

    Cheers,

    Tony

    Personally speaking. I got it because my wife and her guild wanted to play, and I wanted to play with them.  Rift in particular isn't my cup of tea most times, but what it did do was pretty decent.  The story wasn't too bad, gameplay was sadly too easy for my tastes, and leveling was way too fast for me.  I outleveled zones constantly, and it just felt like a blur.  I do expect 6 months to a year of content yes.  And why shouldn't I or any other gamer.  Realistically if a game company wants to recoup their money invested into their project, shouldn't there be content to keep us hooked and interested?

    If you go back some time ago, there were games that took at least a year or so to reach max level, and it is was far more about the journey getting there, not the start of the game.  FFXI is the big one I remember.  DoAC and AC was pretty decent as well as far as time went.  Horizons (Now known as Istaria) is also in the same vein.  They had far different systems in place, it took a bit to get somewhere, and there was so much content that you could keep yourself busy for at least 6 months min.

    Take a look at today's games.  Do we have any that can stand up to that?   I hear the same things on many forums that End-Game is the game, not the journey to the end.  I know a good bit of the MMO community love raiding, and are ok with the demands that it requires.  But there is a big section that seems to desire something that is more geared towards original ideas, and something just different.  I know that I want something different.  I cycle through about 4-6 mmo's a year, which is sad.  Maybe playing for 12 years has burned me out on the genre, but I would love to hope that it is just due to the lack of creativity.

    I don't want to sound contrite, because I'm legitimately digging for what it is that appeals to that group you reference. Like you said, I loved the journey in DAOC. I literally spent an ENTIRE spring break my sophomore year in high school leveling up in the Midgard Spider/Goblin caves (this was pre-expansion). I look back at those 10 levels as the pinnacle of my MMO experience. I had to put together a group and then hope no one was occupying the spot we wanted to hunt. Once we got a spot we stayed there for hours and hours and hours and then I would generally try to immediately hop into whatever group was queued up to follow us in that spot or start another group.

    How do you balance the experience I just described with mass marketablility? Should MMO developers make games for a small subset of the gaming community in the hopes that retention will be so stellar that they will be able to make enough money to be profitable?

    If easy games suck why do so many people play WOW, arguably the easiest game to level up in...ever?

    My opinion is that we, as MMO gamers, have gotten lazy. We want an engaging, awesome, community handed to us instead of trying to develop one. The most rewarding part of DAOC for me was always putting together the groups that made my experience awesome. I didn't rely on developers to do anything but skin up new sprites for me and my friends to kill.

    Juxtapose that statement with the general feel of most MMO criticism these days and I think you'll see that the shift has gone from "I can't find anyone cool to play with" to "the devs aren't giving me enough fun toys".

    Just my two cents. What do you think?

    Cheers,

    Tony

    You make a valid point.  Maybe it is just that the majority of people don't want that anymore.  We could just be a small subset in the mass of MMO gamers.  I remember what it was like back then too, and to me, that was the most fun I had in a game.  I played FFXI like 6 months or so ago, and while they made it a bit easier to level, barely anyone wanted to do actual parties.  It was either the Dunes, Qufim, or Abyssea.  It was really sad. 

    I remember foundly being in parties, treking to all kinds of exotic places to kill stuff with other groups, and having a blast, good conversation, and overall a great time.  I would log off and think, man that was fun, I can't wait until I can play again tomorrow.  I don't get that anymore.  Everyone seems concerned with "clearing content" or getting to max level, that they lose the whole reason the game is even made.  I wound up leaving FFXI because it was impossible to do anything else.  While the Dunes is fun, being level 42, sync'd down to 13 just to level some seems silly.  If i went to take on a level 35, I'd die just from the lack of skill training.

    Your point with WoW honestly hits it on the head.  Maybe it is just a sad day in the genre.  Maybe it is us older folks who remember the good times that are just so disgruntled it seems like it is more then it is.  Maybe there isn't any room for us anymore.  Aside from FFXI, the games that I remember being like that are all very small, and barely alive. You could be right that it is just us that are the problem, and not the folks dedicating their lives to creating these games.  Honestly, I think it is across all gaming platforms, not just MMO's.  I suppose it will be what it will be.

    This is one of the better forum conversations I have ever had. Thanks for participating. I agree, I think we're just different gamers. I can tell you that the F2P MMO market really appeals to me right now though because I can just pick up and put down games as often as I like.

    Thanks again for chatting, if you want to continue the convo with me you can always PM me. I'd love to know what you're going to play next.

    Cheers,

    Tony

  • TerranahTerranah Stockton, CAPosts: 3,605Member

    Originally posted by seansean

    Well, I've about had it. I've played all kinds of MMORPG's, EVE, EQ2, vanguard, ryzom, AOC, anarchy online, global agenda, beyond protocol, black prophecy, neocron 2(the best of them all, by a wide margin) SWG, matrix online, and many more.

    nothing holds my interest. I've spent a lot of time, money and so on. it feels like I'm playing the same game over and over, with a different skin. EVE is a standout; but CCP lost my trust. once you're down to arguing about monocles, I pick up a book, ya know?

    I'm the problem; my mind needs to be engaged(EVE did that but it's going down), I like sci-fi, I like flying things, I like virtual open worlds, I like persistence, I like player housing, but(and I can't stress this enough) IF I SEE ONE MORE FUCKING ELF IN MY LIFE I WILL GO ON A  JIHAD. I can't take it anymore. plus MMO's seem to all be going P2W, not just P2P. guess its time to hang it up. hell even SWTOR, with all the money in the world to spend, decided that a STAR WARS game should have space on rails. WTF..

    fuck it. I swear to christ imma play magic: the gathering...

     I think a lot of us are feeling this right now, my friend.  Especially with the long build up of GW2, SWTOR and Archeage also.  I switched gears and started back to reading again.  There's nothing like a good book, and when people talk about 'story' in games...well it's a bit laughable by comparison.

     

    I also dusted off some old games I neglected due to mmos, and discovered I like the rts genre.  So that's something new.  Good luck in your gaming.

  • TesinatoTesinato Berlin, NJPosts: 222Member Uncommon

    This is one of the better forum conversations I have ever had. Thanks for participating. I agree, I think we're just different gamers. I can tell you that the F2P MMO market really appeals to me right now though because I can just pick up and put down games as often as I like.

    Thanks again for chatting, if you want to continue the convo with me you can always PM me. I'd love to know what you're going to play next.

    Cheers,

    Tony

    Honestly, i got no idea.  I've been surfing this website for ideas all day, but to no real avail.  I had considered going back to FFXI again, but with their new billing system, I'll hold off for now.  Was also thinking of giving Vanguard a try, but with some of the posts saying how low the population is, it worries me it won't be around.  Sadly that game has been plaqued since it started. 

     

    It has been great as well talking with you.  Glad to see like-minded people here.  Honestly, sometimes I wonder about these forums, but luckily every now and again you get a great topic. :)

  • pgqsilverpgqsilver Peachtree City, GAPosts: 106Member

    It seems that in this day in age of MMO investors won't put their money in anything that doesn't guarantee them a return.  I can't say I blame them, economically times are hard.  Overall, this causes AAA titles to stick to a strict formula.  It's up to the indie companies, without any funding, to pave the way of innovation for this genre.  

  • VoxTrooperVoxTrooper Grand Prairie, TXPosts: 87Member

     I know how you feel. Elves are my least favorite thing about fantasy; Dwarves are cool though.  And take heart brother. We are reaching the precipice on which the investors will watch the ships of same design falter; the time that the ship of new designs survives and carries the message of change to gameplay. Do not despair because we have been so long with our tormentors; for we are almost free of the shackles that our brethren wrought for us. Soon they will crumble and we will be masters of our future.


     


     Yeah i am terrible poet that’s why i have a scribe... He got turned into a newt (getting better though). What i am saying is we are almost through the tunnel; GW2 is changing a lot of the MMO setting, SWToR will show the hotkey trinity is done, investors will see GW2 and decide not to back the old age MMOs, we have the technology to make better MMOs cheaper, and we can still vote with our wallets.

    It is best for the industry the MMO throne remains an dusty empty seat never to be filled.

  • jedensuscgjedensuscg Kodiak, AKPosts: 209Member

    I agree.  I have been trying random games last the few weeks to try and find one I can stick with, but they are all just blah.  Truth is, I have spent more time on my computer playing the original Baldur's Gate and Star Command 2(God I love gog.com) then I spent logged into any MMO...ya games made in the 90's are holding my interest more then all the MMO's out there.

     

    But I always have hope to the future, and plan on playing TOR and maybe GW2.

    image

  • thefinnthefinn sydneyPosts: 46Member

    Yeah I too completely agree with OP.

    A sandbox (not a PVP fps with a little sand) with swords and magic seems to be way too hard for these guys to put together.

    Whoever gets there first will make a killing imo.

    It's a pity they are all unimaginative business guys.

  • tank017tank017 Glendale, CAPosts: 2,192Member

    Originally posted by seansean

    Well, I've about had it. I've played all kinds of MMORPG's, EVE, EQ2, vanguard, ryzom, AOC, anarchy online, global agenda, beyond protocol, black prophecy, neocron 2(the best of them all, by a wide margin) SWG, matrix online, and many more.

    nothing holds my interest. I've spent a lot of time, money and so on. it feels like I'm playing the same game over and over, with a different skin. EVE is a standout; but CCP lost my trust. once you're down to arguing about monocles, I pick up a book, ya know?

    I'm the problem; my mind needs to be engaged(EVE did that but it's going down), I like sci-fi, I like flying things, I like virtual open worlds, I like persistence, I like player housing, but(and I can't stress this enough) IF I SEE ONE MORE FUCKING ELF IN MY LIFE I WILL GO ON A  JIHAD. I can't take it anymore. plus MMO's seem to all be going P2W, not just P2P. guess its time to hang it up. hell even SWTOR, with all the money in the world to spend, decided that a STAR WARS game should have space on rails. WTF..

    fuck it. I swear to christ imma play magic: the gathering...

    Can I have your stuff?

     

    lol j/k

     

    maybe hang it up until The Secret World,Guild Wars 2,or World of Darkness comes out?  those games seem like they are trying to change up the monotony a bit.

  • psyclumpsyclum blah, ALPosts: 792Member

    the problem is MMORPG is now extincted.  what they CALL MMORPG these days are actually MSOGFW (massive singleplayer online gankfest for whiners)...

    occationally, you get together with your closest buddy and go on a 2man "raid" and realize it's boring because a trained monkey with a nostromo can beat the boss:D

    too many faceroll games and not enough MULTIPLAYER is the problem.

  • BlackWatchBlackWatch OKC, OKPosts: 983Member

    I really do think quite a few of us are in the same boat.

    We've 'been there/done that'.

    I'm still waiting for the 'next generation MMO'.  I'm not sure that I have seen any real 'innovation' in a while that provides the 'hook' that these games did when they were first unleashed upon us.

    There are a few games that will be out in the next year that I'm looking forward to... but there really isn't 1 game out right now that holds my attention. 

    image

  • RecoreRecore Posts: 5,098Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Shadowlord10

    I don't think your the only one m8.  I too share your thoughts.  It's kind of sad, that no one is willing to step up and make something different.   I think the problem really is the fact that everyone wants the "big hit" instead of having something original.  Couple that with easy games, facebook apps, smartphone apps, people don't care for the engaging part anymore.  Most games nowadays cater to the masses, and in order to do that, they have to be simple and easy.  The lowest common denominator is the bane of the gaming industry I think.  That or it is just the bane of those who want to play a game that has some depth and can engage the mind.

     

     

     

    Totally agree with your post and thats why I dont do mainstream mmos. I have tried them all from WoW, Lotro, EQ 2, Rift, Age Of Conan and Warhammer and the longest I ever lasted was 2 months of EQ 2. Guild Wars 2 is the only mainstream mmo thats got my attention and thats only because its being made to be a different kind of mmo. 

    Raptr Gamercard
  • redpinsredpins Clovis, CAPosts: 147Member

    It's not a matter of just innvation, it's a matter of mindset. Name one AAA game that holds enough content more than TOR offers in their press releases. There isn't any without some grind. The problem is, you want no grind, you want massive amounts of content, and you want it cheap. There is no way in HELL you will get it dirt cheap. The next evolution of mmog will cost you more than these wow clones. It will cost you more in time and money, and it will need to make more money than these wow clones. As for costs, it is rediculous, but thats not the issue. You need to hire a massive amount of organized people to cut work load times for people in this industry. Sure we can all license big world tech or hero engine and make a mmog, but by the time we get around the development phases we will be bald and on the verge of heart attacks. That is why costs go up, it's why big companies call it the Crunch Time. The investors pull the shots, but if a AAA studio can get around and make a game without investors aka publishers, then well maybe there is a chance. For me, I know if I target a game genre, its going to be with a lot of competition, so their best is my worst. I always will go above and beyond for my target audience, but it is ultimately up to the players to accept it or not. No game can give you infinite playtime without you getting bored for cheap. Sandbox bores people, themepark bores people. They want to be high 24/7 and they can't be. Instant gratification, meeting their pyschological needs, and the need to be self appeased and pleasured for 24/7 is ridiculous. You can't be, and you're a major part of the problem if you think you do.

    I played magic the gathering, and it did indeed bore me. I played a lot of stuff, and it bored me. I changed my mindset and view on things, and started to take control of my feelings, and guess what? I ain't bored no more. You choose to be bored, burnt out, things are worthless. It's called being a cynical asshole and there is a cure. You just probably aren't strong enough to do it. You need to stop thinking with your emotions, and think with your mind. Tell yourself how to react to things, and then go back and see if you're bored by design. If so, then it's the games fault, if not then it was your fault.

    You want the moon? Pay up. I'd be willing to spend any amount of money and give you what you want, if you pay my price. Hell, I'll even rope the moon and start building little colonies on it, as long as you paid me my price. You get the picture? It's quite plain and obvious. Stop being cynical about games, and you will go back to that love that your cyncism killed long ago.

    I struggle not with life, money, emotions, and world, but against old mindsets and selves to be proven obsolete in a age and time of rapid changes. Go create fun, so you can have fun.

  • gaiusmariusgaiusmarius NewcastlePosts: 39Member Uncommon

    I'm personally waiting for TOR. I've burnt myself out of EVE.

    So what I play right now is Red Orchestra 2: HoS ;)

    Although if you can call AoE an MMO, I play that a little...

    [Playing] SW:ToR
    [Played] AoC, WoW, Rift, EQ 1, 2, SWG, DAoC, WAR, GW1, EVE, PotBS.
    [Watching] GW2, Archage

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,096Member Common

    Originally posted by seansean

    Well, I've about had it. I've played all kinds of MMORPG's, EVE, EQ2, vanguard, ryzom, AOC, anarchy online, global agenda, beyond protocol, black prophecy, neocron 2(the best of them all, by a wide margin) SWG, matrix online, and many more.

    nothing holds my interest. I've spent a lot of time, money and so on. it feels like I'm playing the same game over and over, with a different skin. EVE is a standout; but CCP lost my trust. once you're down to arguing about monocles, I pick up a book, ya know?

    I'm the problem; my mind needs to be engaged(EVE did that but it's going down), I like sci-fi, I like flying things, I like virtual open worlds, I like persistence, I like player housing, but(and I can't stress this enough) IF I SEE ONE MORE FUCKING ELF IN MY LIFE I WILL GO ON A  JIHAD. I can't take it anymore. plus MMO's seem to all be going P2W, not just P2P. guess its time to hang it up. hell even SWTOR, with all the money in the world to spend, decided that a STAR WARS game should have space on rails. WTF..

    fuck it. I swear to christ imma play magic: the gathering...

    Feel ya Bro

    Except for that MtG comment.

    Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
    Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
    Playing: Skyrim
    Following: The Repopulation
    I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
    ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

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