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General: No RPG in my MMORPG

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  • mizanyxmizanyx Mexico CityPosts: 70Member

    The lack of RPG is a direct consequence of the very limited number of interactions possible in most of the current MMORPGs.

    Take a look at the roguelikes, like POWDER or Nethack. They have a better roleplaying quality because in those games you can make the items and game elements interact in unexpected ways. By example, you have a silver ring, and a sword in your hand. You know that the enemy in front of you its heavily armored, and very likely to crush you, but also its magically vulnerable to silver. You equip your silver ring as weapon and sheath your sword, and attack the enemy, who dies in a few hits.

    In current MMORPGs, your items can be used only in one way. A potion is a potion and you can only quaff it. A weapon is only for attacking. Casters throw fire spells, without igniting fire sensitive items like cloaks, logs, haystacks. You can't do things like throw a life potion to an undead enemy to hurt him.

    Physics engines in MMORPGs (like in Vindictus) are a step in the right direction, but there is still a long way to go until we can have the same level of interaction in our MMORPGs as in roguelike games.

  • LydarSynnLydarSynn Jonestown, ALPosts: 182Member

    I couldn't agree more. I lurk on this site because I love what MMOs could be. I seriously dislike what they are now. 

  • WulfynWulfyn YeovilPosts: 19Member

    I very much agree with the points made here. The dumbing down of content has reduced many games to nothing more than an addictive grind for the promise of some future fun. When people care more about loot accumulation, levelling, or killboard stats than enjoying the game I have to wonder why they even bother to play.

    There are few games out there that I feel that I can immerse myself in. Let myself zone out of this reality and lose myself in some escapism for a few hours. I firmly believe that there are a lot of talented developers out there that would love to create this sort of game, but just never get authorisation or funding from a production house. Hollywood seems to have gone the same way in the last few years with remakes of essentially the same film in a differently branded skin, focusing on CGI rather than story writing.

    But I do think there is hope. In the 90's it was rare to see a TV series that had much, if any, progression, with most ending in the same situation as they started so that the next episode could start from the same point. But now these types of series are extremely commonplace. The success of something like 24 proved the concept and paved the way for others. I'm hoping that a future MMORPG will do the same, and prove the concept for others.

    www.ygworlds.net

  • IsawaIsawa Middle 0 Nowhere, ORPosts: 1,051Member

    Great post with some good discussion (from what I read) going on. Well done.

  • donsavagedonsavage lincoln, ALPosts: 16Member

    you guys might want to look into the game "minecraft" its a sand box game meaning its not very "difficult" however there is a fair amount of risk when you go mining and die to lose all your gained materials. there are no quests, however its a world in which you can create any structures you wish. mostly a single player game however there are several privately hosted servers that you can easily connect to. the RPG is in the fact that the players control the buildings. you mine, you craft, you run from creepers (at least in hard setting)

  • eyeswideopeneyeswideopen Fresno, CAPosts: 2,414Member

    Corpse Runs

    "Corpse runs were a time sink. I don't play a game to die or spend hours retrieving my corpse, I play to have fun. They were an unnecessary waste of time."

    We all know the arguments, and we've seen messages similar to this one fiercely defended by cocky forum experts who can cite every stat and spec from memory, but couldn't point to a vagina if they had a map.

     

    "Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."

    Which brings me to the most flame inducing thing I've ever written: "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."

    Fuckin' A! Hallelujah and pass the ammunition! Finally a writer here who tells it like it is! Screw guest status, hire this guy permanent!

    Give him Yoshi's spot if you need to make room. image

    -Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
    -And on the 8th day, man created God.-

  • WSIMikeWSIMike Catskill, NYPosts: 5,564Member

    A-Freaking-Men to this article.

    Coyote, you read my mind (or share my mindset, anyway :) and put it to words much more effectively and succinctly than I ever could.

    If I sat here all evening trying to capture what has been lost in the MMORPG genre, I couldn't have presented it as well as you did.

    Bravo, sir.

    The bit about death penalties (corpse runs, xp loss, etc) teaching you *not to die* is so spot on.

     

    Unfortunately, in this generation, many people relate to things only in terms of "how well they're rewarded for it", believing just about anything - even the most mundane task - should be rewarded, or it's not worth it. Anything that *doesnt'* reward xp or loot is  either a "useless time sink" or a "punishment". I've tried to explain that death penalties are not "punishment for the sake of punishment" or a "time sink", but are intended to encourage folks to play better, smarter and more strategically so they don't die in the first place.

    For those who argue (and they are many) that "the failure of dying is punishment enough by itself". No, it isn't.

    Why?

    Well, here's just one example...

    These days, many people use dying as a convenient means of transportation (e.g. graveyard hopping in WoW)... so again, you can see the disconnect. For the older generation, dying was a harsh experience that you did everything in your power to avoid. The newer generation sees death as "Hey! I can shave off 10 minutes of running if I die here and res at the graveyard instead! Viva la convenience!".

    Death should never be a spiffy means of travel. Ever. In a game with a truly meaningful and biting death penalty that hit players where it hurt, it wouldn't be.

    I can't think of any better example of what the MMO genre has degraded to than in a forum post I read some time ago where someone actually argued that dying in a MMORPG should be fun. Yes... paying the ultimate price for failure should be a good thing according to some people (again, wanting to be rewarded for practically everything). I'm sure there are those who would argue you should get xp for dying as well. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

    Oh, and the comment about people "thinking" they don't have time. Spot on. They have the time ti sit down and play a video game. Further, they're playing a game in a genre that is, by design, intended to be played for months or even years. So what's the hurry, then? Why the "need" to have/do/achieve everything "yesterday!"? Well, as you state, Coyote, time has nothing to do with it... It's all about impatience; people wanting what they want *now*, simply because they want it *now*.

    I'm 38. Have a full-time job. Have plenty of responsibilty and have limited time to play games myself. It takes me longer to get things done than it does others with more time. Does it bother me? Do I think it's unfair? Do I think the games need to be altered to cater to my busy schedule? No, no and no. If I enjoy playing the game, then I enjoy it no matter what I'm doing for however much time I have to play. There is no hurry. My personal life-responsibilities or time-restraints do not entitle me to anything because I chose to play a particular MMO.

    Further, I also value my experiences based on the enjoyment I get from them. Unlike what many seem to do, I don't weigh or value everything I do or achieve in a game against how much faster others have done or achieved it. There's a kind of envy apparent in that mindset that I just don't understand. Others' experiences are their own. Likewise, my experiences are my own.

    Anyways...

    Again... excellent, excellent article.

    "If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road,
    and the cash shop selling asphalt..."
    - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops

    image

  • WSIMikeWSIMike Catskill, NYPosts: 5,564Member

    Originally posted by eyeswideopen

    Corpse Runs

    "Corpse runs were a time sink. I don't play a game to die or spend hours retrieving my corpse, I play to have fun. They were an unnecessary waste of time."

    We all know the arguments, and we've seen messages similar to this one fiercely defended by cocky forum experts who can cite every stat and spec from memory, but couldn't point to a vagina if they had a map.

     

    "Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."

    Which brings me to the most flame inducing thing I've ever written: "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."

    Fuckin' A! Hallelujah and pass the ammunition! Finally a writer here who tells it like it is! Screw guest status, hire this guy permanent!

    Give him Yoshi's spot if you need to make room. image

    I approve of this message.

    "If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road,
    and the cash shop selling asphalt..."
    - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops

    image

  • KhalathwyrKhalathwyr Denton, TXPosts: 3,138Member

    Do you know what corpse runs taught you?  Not to f**king die, that's what.

    Priceless! I laughed for 5 minutes straight!

     

    As far as the whole article:

     

    AMEN, Praise the LORD!! I agree with everything in it 120%!!! Thanks Coyote for going ahead with this one. Like Martin Luther's 95 Theses showing how this fat, bloated industry has strayed.

    "Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."

    Kickstarter 2 / Naysayers 0

  • xKingdomxxKingdomx SydneyPosts: 1,541Member

    Impossibly Deadly Zones & Corpse Runs

    You arguments for each of them just contradicts with each other, so now we have a impossibly deadly zone which you have to corpse run if you die, so will I ever EVER get to play the game? Theortically it sounds great, but practically that just fails.

     

    Also I am actually shocked at how unprofessional this article is, sure some articles put one censored swears in to bring intensity to the article, but not too many times, and those personal attacks "defended by cocky forum experts who can cite every stat and spec from memory, but couldn't point to a vagina if they had a map.", the article became a rant at the end, the writer was simply frustrated that he was in the minority of players.

    How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
    As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.

  • kaliniskalinis Dexter, MEPosts: 1,428Member

    it taught u not to die. Or as bioware put it it taught u to avoid the risk of dying because u didnt wanna run back to yoru corpse so instead of taking a chance on fighting guys 2-3 levels ahead of them people would grind things 2-3 levels below them till the hit max level. 

    There is an answer to all his points. And maybe it ws fun for u but gettign killed by things i have no shot beating isnt fun for me its annoying and flat out would of made me avoid playing at nite so i wouldnt of had to die trying to level from my 1 to whteer the end of noob land was. 

    Each player has a diffrent opinon on what is fun and to me dying isnt a bad thing as long as i dont have to run back for 10 mins.

    im willing to try taken on an elite around my level if i know when i die im not gonna spend 30 minutes getting back to where i was. if im gonna have to run 30 mins or lose all my shit im not gonna take that chance ill fight stuff i know i can beat .

  • KretanKretan ashland, MOPosts: 9Member

    Best article EVAH!

    good times, great memories. shame no game since eq could get it right.

     

    thanks for the fun read!

  • shakermaker0shakermaker0 SheffieldPosts: 194Member

    I think that 95% of the readers of this article sat infront of their monitors, banging a fist on the desk shouting "Say it like it is Coyote!" brilliant article, perfectly sums up my feelings and alot of others. Shit just got real.

  • tazarconan7tazarconan7 athensPosts: 74Member

    Its funny how  almost all ppl (including me) agree 200 % with the article ,yet every time a new mmorpg launches they go spend 40 euros ,buy it,then they realise they ve been fooled, rp in the game is dumbed, lack of content included , bugnight party dance,combat is full of exciting effects but emptier from essence  tactical meaning than my stomach, lack of creation/imagination/innovation etc etc then they come here and all agree to complain.

    you want to change the situation?

    STOP FEEDING THOSE FRUKERS CALLED DEVS WITH YOUR MONEY ~~~!!!!

    And after 20-30 mmorpg's that launched and got ZERO sales and take the finger from player's base , you all be sure the next mmorpg will be a serious attempt with all those nice things we are missing character depth, deep advancement system, freedom in choises, real ROLEPLAY depth etc etc etc etc etc

  • dragonbranddragonbrand Long Beach, CAPosts: 412Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by JPTX

    Well, if we want awesome MMORPG's with great graphics, and story, and beautiful animations, and (insert your favorite feature here), that costs money.  Lots of money.  And you only make lots of money if you have lots of players.

    You, sir, are in the minority.

     Apparently you passed over Coyote's comments about cost of MMOs. He made the comment, and I tend to agree, that the cost now are by porportion any greater now than then. Hardware costs have come down greatly. Software costs have come down greatly. There is definitely more tools available now than there were in the "old days" . . . greater supply = less cost.

    In this economy, labor is nowhere near as expensive, when adjusted for inflation, as in prior years. So why does it or would it cost more . . . it doesn't. It only may cost more if you set your sights on making an MMO that will only run on the highest end computers.

    I believe that CCP with EVE have proven that you do not need "lots of players" to make money. They ahve perhaps 5% of the number of active subscriptions of WOW and continue to put out twice yearly updates. EVE has been around longer than WOW as well. If CCP weren't making money with the kind of subscription numbers they have, EVE would have been shutdown years ago. CCP has been able to add people and development studios based on their finances from EVE.

    What do you say, we try again . . .

    And from the number of comments and what they say on this thread, I would believe that Coyote is in the majority and you sir, are in the minority.

    Gaming since Avalon Hill was making board games.

    Played SWG, EVE, Fallen Earth, LOTRO, Rift, Vanguard, WoW, SWTOR, TSW, Tera
    Tried Aoc, Aion, EQII, RoM, Vindictus, Darkfail, DDO, GW, PotBS

  • LarsaLarsa NurembergPosts: 990Member

    Looks like I fully agree with an MMORPG article, doesn't happen that frequently. Well done.

    I haven't touched any of these so-called AAA MMORPGs since 3 years now (the last one was a 6 month stint in LotRO). I believe there's quite an untapped market of old-school RPGers out there.

    And remember, old-school RPGs can be made much cheaper, we don't need all this cutscenes, scripted encounters, arenas, instances and voice actors. On the contrary.

    I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.

  • VoxTrooperVoxTrooper Grand Prairie, TXPosts: 87Member

    Originally posted by WSIMike



    Originally posted by eyeswideopen

    Corpse Runs

    "Corpse runs were a time sink. I don't play a game to die or spend hours retrieving my corpse, I play to have fun. They were an unnecessary waste of time."

    We all know the arguments, and we've seen messages similar to this one fiercely defended by cocky forum experts who can cite every stat and spec from memory, but couldn't point to a vagina if they had a map.

     

    "Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."

    Which brings me to the most flame inducing thing I've ever written: "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."

    Fuckin' A! Hallelujah and pass the ammunition! Finally a writer here who tells it like it is! Screw guest status, hire this guy permanent!

    Give him Yoshi's spot if you need to make room. image

    I approve of this message.


     

    I here by approve of the approval of the message being approved.

    It is best for the industry the MMO throne remains an dusty empty seat never to be filled.

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,096Member Common

    Id rather be in the Minority of MMO gamers like Coyote who want a deep, engaging and complex game world than with the Majority of Facerolling players that games cater to now

    Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
    Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
    Playing: Skyrim
    Following: The Repopulation
    I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
    ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  • kaliniskalinis Dexter, MEPosts: 1,428Member

    And id rather play a game thats fun and enjoyable and doesnt make me weep with boredome just because i died. 

    id rather play a game where i know what level creatures ill face in a zone then a game where guys way past my level come out to kill me at certin times of day. 

    I know theres that nasty fun word again gees what are devs thinking making games fun. 

    games should be virtual worlds where i can taunt and bully and kill at will without any consequence and if no one esle is having fun at least i am . what were devs thinking getting rid of boring parts of gameplay just so more then 2 people will play it. 

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,934Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Larsa

    Looks like I fully agree with an MMORPG article, doesn't happen that frequently. Well done.

    I haven't touched any of these so-called AAA MMORPGs since 3 years now (the last one was a 6 month stint in LotRO). I believe there's quite an untapped market of old-school RPGers out there.

    And remember, old-school RPGs can be made much cheaper, we don't need all this cutscenes, scripted encounters, arenas, instances and voice actors. On the contrary.

    The cut scenes, arenas, scripted encounters and even instances are not that expensive. Voice actors are, if you use famous people. You can probably get some friends doing it for free or some unemployed actors doing it cheap though.

    Good graphics is the main cost. You need people to design a huge world with all it's inhabitants, costumes, weapons and so on.

    You also need a great programmer or 2. That doesn't have to cost that much but usually do.

    It costs a lot more to make a game now then it did 15 years ago. Even a cheap game like Meridian 59 or the realm would be very expensive to make with todays graphics.

    Some small indie companies have tried remaking UO or something similar to bring back the old days, companies like Aventurine and Star vault. They just don't have the crew and funding to really make that happen.

    I played the old games myself and had a great time but I think it is as likely that I would start to play a remake of Meriian 59 as I would start to play a remake of Wow...

    Game designers needs to stop look at other peoples work and do original stuff, that was what made UO, M59 and the rest so great.

  • GameDevJakeGameDevJake Phoenix, AZPosts: 27Member

    Originally posted by VoxTrooper





    Originally posted by WSIMike








    Originally posted by eyeswideopen







    Corpse Runs



    "Corpse runs were a time sink. I don't play a game to die or spend hours retrieving my corpse, I play to have fun. They were an unnecessary waste of time."



    We all know the arguments, and we've seen messages similar to this one fiercely defended by cocky forum experts who can cite every stat and spec from memory, but couldn't point to a vagina if they had a map.



     



    "Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."



    Which brings me to the most flame inducing thing I've ever written: "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."



    Fuckin' A! Hallelujah and pass the ammunition! Finally a writer here who tells it like it is! Screw guest status, hire this guy permanent!



    Give him Yoshi's spot if you need to make room. image



    I approve of this message.






     



    I here by approve of the approval of the message being approved.


     

    Haha!!! Yoshi!!

    Great post, Coyote! Keep em coming!

    image

  • DamonDamon Naples, FLPosts: 165Member

    I can't agree with this article enough.  This should be a f***ing sticky on every MMORPG forum and every subforum.  As usual, your sense of humor makes the read even that much more enjoyable.  Keep writing!

    image
  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,934Member Uncommon

    Coyote is so right when he describes the problem of modern MMOs but then he comes to the conclusion that the right thing is to remake the games of the past instead of moving forward.

    MMOs needs to be more original, not copies of another game no matter if that game is UO, Wow or EQ.

    The difference between todays game and the early games were that in those games there weren't anything to copy so you were forced figuring out how the game should be by yourself instead of just stealing all the stuff.

    I played those games. I played the current games. I want something I havn't played for years next, not rehashing old stuff.

    Those old games did some thing really great. They also did other things not so great, and I think most people here have forgotten most of the bad things.

  • ShadowVlicanShadowVlican Toronto, ONPosts: 158Member

    great piece of work!

  • AliothAlioth Milton, ONPosts: 231Member Common

    Great post. There is without a doubt a large group of players who are looking for the virtual worlds of old.

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