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Star Wars: The Old Republic: Sex & Games & Rolling Dice

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  • PTEDPTED ReykjavikPosts: 464Member

    Hey look, R&P is back!



    Either have both or leave them out entirely.

    Only the Sith deal in absolutes...

    Honestly though, who gives a damn?

    Don't like what's on offer? Don't go through the content.

    You were never forced into any sort of relationship in other Bioware games; you needn't think you'll be forced into having one now.

  • SlothnChunkSlothnChunk Kansas City, MOPosts: 460Member Uncommon

    I would leave out all sexuality. I can't name a single MMO where these relationships have added anything of value to the MMO.

  • IsawaIsawa Middle 0 Nowhere, ORPosts: 1,051Member

    Well if I am going to RP / Lore my main Jedi Consular, I am best to avoid these relationships with npcs (sounds like Dark Side temptation points) as well as other characters.

    On the other hand, I'll be having an Imperial Agent and the npc aspect could be quite interesting.

    Overall, I'm an advocate for if you need relationships in a game, form them with other players like all other mmos. I woulnd't be surprised if Bioware did ask this question years back, and the word came down from George Lucas quite clearly 'No".

    MMOs with multiple player options already have species w/ species relationships, as will TOR...that's a significantly differant step in itself.

  • mirkrimmirkrim Toronto, ONPosts: 69Member

    I agree with the OP's statement that there are "bigger fish to fry".  Honestly, romancing companions is a very tangential part of the game... even space combat is more significant from an overall perspective.

  • redpinsredpins Clovis, CAPosts: 147Member

    Why is everyone saying homosexuality is acceptable in games without actual ties in that create value? Make a logical value to being homosexual other than pleasing you with eye candy, and then ship the official document to bioware and tell them to put it in. Even with regular Heterosexuality we clearly see it doesn't add anything other than eye candy to the game. What's cattering 0.05% more to a game with just eye candy going to do? I do not support gay marriage, but I support the people, not their choices. So what? If you gave me a valid reason and system of homosexuality to place in a game other than eye candy, maybe perhaps it would innovate game mechanics or something, I'd consider putting it in. If not, go nerd rage at the wall. :P You can rage on here, but you will just prove even more of how immature you are when the dev team won't ever read your posts. Email it to them, and see if they even resond back after the first acknowledgement email.

    I struggle not with life, money, emotions, and world, but against old mindsets and selves to be proven obsolete in a age and time of rapid changes. Go create fun, so you can have fun.

  • Laughing-manLaughing-man Dublin, OHPosts: 3,415Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by SlothnChunk

    I would leave out all sexuality. I can't name a single MMO where these relationships have added anything of value to the MMO.

    Agreed.

    Though I don't see a reason to exlude anyone from anything when its being offered as content... so it hardly seems fair that they are being excluding of the homosexual community, which makes up on average 1 out of every 10 people.  10% of the world population is more people than there are Native Americans, or Central Americans, or Middle Easterners.  To act like these groups mater and yet some how homosexuals don't is just simply outrageous.

    Equality for everyone.

    edit: upon quick research if you include bi-sexuals the numbers are more like 15-16% of the world popuation, making it about equal with the percentage of white people in the world... hmm...  so If homosexual's aren't allowed an opinion, who should be allowed one?

  • GMan3GMan3 Ewa Beach, HIPosts: 2,127Member

    Originally posted by Laughing-man

    Originally posted by SlothnChunk

    I would leave out all sexuality. I can't name a single MMO where these relationships have added anything of value to the MMO.

    Agreed.

    Though I don't see a reason to exlude anyone from anything when its being offered as content... so it hardly seems fair that they are being excluding of the homosexual community, which makes up on average 1 out of every 10 people.  10% of the world population is more people than there are Native Americans, or Central Americans, or Middle Easterners.  To act like these groups mater and yet some how homosexuals don't is just simply outrageous.

    Equality for everyone.

         Which is a good point, though you didn't mean to make it.  Why bother creating something for such a small demographic?  It is a waste of money in the long run.  It would be like going to the trouble of creating a system of "extreme death penalties" that people can opt out of if they want.  Why go to the trouble when so few would use it?

    "If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"

  • dougmysticeydougmysticey Pflugerville, TXPosts: 1,176Member

    Originally posted by SlothnChunk

    I would leave out all sexuality. I can't name a single MMO where these relationships have added anything of value to the MMO.

     That is only because this is the first MMO to feature a story and characters deep enough to form relationships. Its more than reading a wall of quest text, you actually have choices. You choose how you deal with companions and in some cases can end up in a romantic relationship if you choose. Never been able to do that in other traditional AAA MMOs.

    They can't add value if they don't exist in the first place.

    image

  • Laughing-manLaughing-man Dublin, OHPosts: 3,415Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by GMan3

    Originally posted by Laughing-man


    Originally posted by SlothnChunk

    I would leave out all sexuality. I can't name a single MMO where these relationships have added anything of value to the MMO.

    Agreed.

    Though I don't see a reason to exlude anyone from anything when its being offered as content... so it hardly seems fair that they are being excluding of the homosexual community, which makes up on average 1 out of every 10 people.  10% of the world population is more people than there are Native Americans, or Central Americans, or Middle Easterners.  To act like these groups mater and yet some how homosexuals don't is just simply outrageous.

    Equality for everyone.

         Which is a good point, though you didn't mean to make it.  Why bother creating something for such a small demographic?  It is a waste of money in the long run.  It would be like going to the trouble of creating a system of "extreme death penalties" that people can opt out of if they want.  Why go to the trouble when so few would use it?

    Well considering they bothered to do so in their past games, several times, and many people who are straight enjoy flirting with a male elf from time to time...  I dunno it just seems silly to be exclusive when honestly it wouldn't take much work to include such a thing, as they have proven before...

    Ultimately I don't see a point in having sexually related content in a star wars game...

  • HighMarshalHighMarshal Huntsville, ALPosts: 287Member Uncommon
    As a male MMO player who tends to play mostly female characters, I can say with pride that almost all my female characters are gay!

    I would be more worried about someone playing a Human character wanting to romance a Wookie (thats just wrong!) than someone romancing a same sex character.
  • Hopscotch73Hopscotch73 DublinPosts: 971Member

    I think the main issue with this is something that BioWare brought on themselves. When I started gaming relationships between characters in video games were surface-only plot-driving things. Then the concept of romancing characters came in. BioWare were at the frontline on this - in KOTOR there was Juhani for a female Revan to flirt with. In Jade Empire there was a male to male realtionship option. Don't ask me to remember character names, been a long time since I played it.

     

    In Mass Effect the romance possibilities for female characters with their female companions was expanded upon, in DA:O there was Zevran for the guys who like guys and the freelove mod to allow women to get it on with Morrigan. DA:2 went a little OTT with Anders flinging himself at the protagonist regardless of their gender, but it had stronger LG options than any game before it.

    BioWare earned themselves a very very loyal audience of gay gamers, male, female, transgender, the lot. They are a company that have consistently and loudly shrugged off any homophobic criticism of their game content.

     

    For those who still don't "get it" - imagine that everything in the world around you was targetted at gay people, and there was only a small, underfunded, neglected by the mass media section of the arts dedicated to straight people. Imagine you loved playing video games as an escape from the stress of being "different" and had never ever seem a game where males could romance females or vice versa. And then one day this company that make kick-ass, massively selling games include a relationship option that fits you. If you're a teenager at this point the validation that brings is immense.

     

    And then you look at their next game, and lo and behold there's more - and they even stand up publically for your right to be represented in games (and thus, by extension validating you still more). And they keep on doing it - wouldn't you just love them? Wouldn't you look forward to their next game?

     

    And then they're about to launch their biggest project ever.... and they've forgotten about you. Or maybe they're done with the whole validation thing and just don't want to come out and say that in public. You don't know because they won't say why. In fact, they're not engaging with your community at all despite a firestorm raging on the web.

     

    Wouldn't that feel kinda like a kick in the teeth?

     

    That's what this is about - the expectations are not built on this being an MMO, they're based on BioWare's track record and the deafening silence from them on an issue they're normally happy to champion. If BioWare are bringing the romance from their SPGs to their MMO, then they should be bringing all romance. And if they aren't (well, we know they're not), then the least they can do is explain why. And they haven't done that.

     

    I'm not going to get all drama llama about this, I'm just trying to help people see why this is actually more than a tempest in a teacup to a lot of people who have supported BioWare as BioWare has supported them over the past decade and change.

     

    They really need to break their silence on this one.

     

  • daeandordaeandor Houston, TXPosts: 2,996Member

    Originally posted by Verterdegete

    Originally posted by daeandor

    Leave the sexual relationships with computer sprites out of the game.  As it has been said several times before, avoid the controversy completely by not allowing PC sexual relationships at all.  End of Story. 

     

     

    Why ??? Why should they remove a feature of the game bacause 1-2% of population isn't satisfied with it ?

    If they don't want the controversy, then leave both sides out.  I didn't say it was right, I said that's what they should do.  What I am saying is don't pick a side.  And please, next time, don't exclude the part of my quote which basically says what I just repeated.

  • KalafaxKalafax Gainesville, FLPosts: 521Member Uncommon

    Personal Preference is a conditioned choice, theres no way to argue against it except for the ignorant who refuse to accept logic.

     

    I think its rediculous that people feel "they" were left out, just because a company puts out games where they have certain features, doesnt mean all of their games should share those features, no one was ignored, or left out, or any of that stuff, simply a design decision and yet so many people take this stuff personally. If you dont like the choice, dont get the game, we dont need you making topics whining about the injustice of life.

    Mess with the best, Die like the rest

  • raistlinmraistlinm new orleans, LAPosts: 673Member

    Hopscotch73

    If people are truly "loyal" followers of Bioware because they on so many occasions offered the freedom to have homosexual relations then I would think those same people should understand that there must be some fairly dynamic/important reason it isn't allowed here. 

    What I find funny is that these in game romances are so lame it boggles the mind that people care and this is coming from someone who has played out every type of relationship possible in DA:O including having a male character date Zev and a female who dated Leliana.

    Oh wow we get some stupid pg rated sex scene that more often than not ends up looking like something you turn your eyes away to avoid than actually watch what is happening due to the sheer embarassment of it all after that you can keep getting that same stupid cutscene but there is nothing else to it if TOR relationships are the same I'm having a hard time seeing why people care so much could those shallow elements really effect someones gameplay that much?

  • DLangleyDLangley Beaumont, TXPosts: 1,407Member

    I've taken the liberty of cleaning the thread up to this point. Please keep any discussion of religion, politics, or any sort of hate related talk out of this thread. Follow the Rules of Conduct when posting.

     

    Just a note :

     


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  • marquisk2marquisk2 Somerville, NJPosts: 141Member

    Originally posted by Hopscotch73



    And then you look at their next game, and lo and behold there's more - and they even stand up publically for your right to be represented in games (and thus, by extension validating you still more). And they keep on doing it - wouldn't you just love them? Wouldn't you look forward to their next game?



    And then they're about to launch their biggest project ever.... and they've forgotten about you. Or maybe they're done with the whole validation thing and just don't want to come out and say that in public. You don't know because they won't say why. In fact, they're not engaging with your community at all despite a firestorm raging on the web.

     

    Wouldn't that feel kinda like a kick in the teeth?

     

      I get what you're saying it's like when Pally's were overpowered, blizzard always said they're fine and working as intended.  I loved my Pally.  Patch after patch I would destroy everyone.  Then came Cata....  Man did that feel like a kick in the teeth being a Pally.  Where's the Pally support now?  long gone I guess or is it the fact that I expected the over powered Pally to be around for every expansion and patch.  My fault, oh well, I play a DK.

  • Hopscotch73Hopscotch73 DublinPosts: 971Member

    To be honest, I personally am not bothered by the omission, but I am kinda bummed out by the silence. I agree with you on the "romantic scenes" often being toe-curlingly awful, but I remember also thinking how awesome it was that David Gaider stood up to the people flaming SGRAs on the Dragon Age forums, and I thought then that if I'd had these games to play when I was a teenager I possibly wouldn't have felt so alone (I grew up in the sticks, and it was a very hard place to be different).

    I don't need that kind of validation anymore, I'm an adult, I couldn't care less about people who judge me based on something as unimportant as  the gender of the people I'm attracted to. I just shrug and write 'em off.  I do, however, recognize that not everyone feels the same way I do, and I understand why they don't. I was in that place too a couple of decades back. No point in telling people they'll feel differently about it when they're older and have lived some more either, because that's not always the case.

    That's why I made the comment about not being dramatic about it, I don't feel "betrayed" or anything, I'm just mildly bummed that they don't seem to feel the need to engage with  the people asking "why?".

  • SilaxSilax Daytona Beach, FLPosts: 250Member

    A few points:

    1. It was made quite clear a long time ago during development that there would not be any same sex relationships.  The "shit storm" is a bit late in brewing.

    2. Saying that every game should offer same sex romance if it has opposite sex romance is a bit much.  Do we really need to go for quotas here?  Remember how movies used to have the stereotypical "black guy" so that the film could be said to showcase multiethnicities.  If we take the argument to hyperbole, why just have homosexual encounters when there are so many other sexual proliclivities to explore?  Where's the bondage?  Sadomaschism (oh sith, sorry)? or, most importantly, where's the wookie sex? (I know everybody wants to get their furries on)

    3. I suppose the question that this comes down to is: are video games art or are they reflections of society?  Films and books don't need to offer equal opportunity gender romances.  We consider them entertainment.  Aren't video games entertainment venues?  Do you criticize an author for not having enough gay or lesbian characters in their books?  Are actors and actresses berate for not starring as homosexual characters?  Or is it that you honestly consider video games as some sort of LIFE 2.0 where you can explore various lifestyles in a virtual world?

    As an aside, I will note that I usually play female toons in games where romance is an option.  My wife who is normally uncomfortable with me having NPC relations with a woman seems more comfortable with me playing a woman flirting with men.... go figure.

  • OzmodanOzmodan Hilliard, OHPosts: 7,183Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by teakbois



    Originally posted by Ozmodan





      Personally, if you have to have a sexual relationship of any sort in a game, you have greater issues than discussing this silly issue.

    And anyone asking why this is inappropriate for kids probably should not be playing this game if you have trouble figuring that out. 






     

    1.  Were not talking 'sexual relationship'.  Just a relationship.

    2.  Relationships involving two people of the same gender are 100% appropriate for kids.  Its not like SWTOR would be their only exposure to it.  Get with the times is the appropriate phrase here.

    It is always sexual if you consider it any sort of relationship, you need to get with the times.  I have some good friends that are gay, they also think all this uproar is ridiculous, it is a game, not a match pairing service.  Anyone getting upset over this needs to get out of their basement and experience life, it is most certainly NOT through a game over the net.

  • Pace2002Pace2002 Denver, COPosts: 16Member

    Really another one of these threads?

    Just asking for trouble with this.

  • Atlan99Atlan99 Calgary, ABPosts: 1,323Member

    Originally posted by Kyleran




     

    Thats this site though.

    Most people here are burned out on the themepark model. So they will take any excuse to bash the game that they can. I bet you most people don't give a rat's ass about the issue one way or the other. They are just using it to put their spin on SWTOR. Just like these last three articles are more about generating hype for the site than personally held beliefs.

    It's also been said "There is no such thing as bad press." So while I think Bioware wishes they were talking more  about game mechanics, they are probably happy people are talking.

    Wait a minute, as the OP noted, "I’d rather be worried about the unannounced “Legacy” end-game system, and the world PvP info we’ve yet to hear squat about"

    so you're correct, it is EA/Bioware's fault after all since their Developer decided to discuss this same sex content issue with some folks rather than share more details on the above said topics which would be more interesting I'll grant you.

    Stop being so defensive about discussions regarding SWTOR, the title doesn't need a defense attorney.

    I never said it was Bioware's fault. I have no idea how you extrapolated that from my post.

    It's not their fault that people nitpick about every little detail. Bioware could release one of those game guides on the game and people would still complain. For alot of people it's the only thing they are good at.

    The three articles that were released attacking SWTOR from this site were done for a reason. They knew they would garner attention to the articles and the site. All three articles were pretty weak with half -assed arguments.

    For instance his irresponsible comment "This “news” created a virtual sh*t-storm on the internet, with LGBT and homophobes battling in a forum version of the Thunderdome." Which is in the same vein as Bushs famous "Your either with us or your with the terrorists." So if you have any other position besides the LBGT your a homophobe.

    I don't blame them for going this route. The results speak for themselves. These are the most viewed and commented posts by the writers on the site. They are also some of the weakest articles that are easily picked apart. I think it's because the writer's knew this when they wrote the posts.

  • ComerEsteComerEste Palm Harbor, FLPosts: 7Member

    George Lucas has the final say on what story elements are allowed in the different franchises that use the Star Wars universe. He does not want any gay/lesbian relationships in the story, so if you want to get onto someone about this, get onto him. BioWare probabaly would've put it in had that not been the case.

  • teakboisteakbois Parlin, NJPosts: 2,154Member

    Originally posted by Ozmodan



    Originally posted by teakbois




    Originally posted by Ozmodan





      Personally, if you have to have a sexual relationship of any sort in a game, you have greater issues than discussing this silly issue.



    And anyone asking why this is inappropriate for kids probably should not be playing this game if you have trouble figuring that out. 






     



    1.  Were not talking 'sexual relationship'.  Just a relationship.



    2.  Relationships involving two people of the same gender are 100% appropriate for kids.  Its not like SWTOR would be their only exposure to it.  Get with the times is the appropriate phrase here.

    It is always sexual if you consider it any sort of relationship, you need to get with the times.  I have some good friends that are gay, they also think all this uproar is ridiculous, it is a game, not a match pairing service.  Anyone getting upset over this needs to get out of their basement and experience life, it is most certainly NOT through a game over the net.


     

    a sexual relationship is people having sex

    a relationship is just people interacting in a close manner.  Relationship usually end up involving sex, yes.  But there is a big difference between the two.

     

     

    And you also don;t understand that everyone plays games differently.  Most people that would do such a thing would be doing it not as a match maker, but as a character immersion tool.  Or it could be people in a relationchip that think its fun to have a similar thing in game.

     

    The people that get upset are more upset over the bigger picture, of our society's continued struggle to accept minorities (smaller % of people different from them, not the racial implications the term sometimes take)

  • marquisk2marquisk2 Somerville, NJPosts: 141Member

    And you also don;t understand that everyone plays games differently.  Most people that would do such a thing would be doing it not as a match maker, but as a character immersion tool.  Or it could be people in a relationchip that think its fun to have a similar thing in game.

     

    The people that get upset are more upset over the bigger picture, of our society's continued struggle to accept minorities (smaller % of people different from them, not the racial implications the term sometimes take)

    Bio already accepted the minorities in previous titles.  Just because they didn't implement it in their latest title doesn't mean they unaccept that minority group.  Lots of factors come into play.  It's a business that's there for profit maybe it wasn't worth it for them this time around?  They can spend all the money they have to please all the minority groups, in the end they have to answer to the stake holders why they didn't make any money.

  • GMan3GMan3 Ewa Beach, HIPosts: 2,127Member

    Originally posted by Laughing-man

    Originally posted by GMan3


    Originally posted by Laughing-man


    Originally posted by SlothnChunk

    I would leave out all sexuality. I can't name a single MMO where these relationships have added anything of value to the MMO.

    Agreed.

    Though I don't see a reason to exlude anyone from anything when its being offered as content... so it hardly seems fair that they are being excluding of the homosexual community, which makes up on average 1 out of every 10 people.  10% of the world population is more people than there are Native Americans, or Central Americans, or Middle Easterners.  To act like these groups mater and yet some how homosexuals don't is just simply outrageous.

    Equality for everyone.

         Which is a good point, though you didn't mean to make it.  Why bother creating something for such a small demographic?  It is a waste of money in the long run.  It would be like going to the trouble of creating a system of "extreme death penalties" that people can opt out of if they want.  Why go to the trouble when so few would use it?

    Well considering they bothered to do so in their past games, several times, and many people who are straight enjoy flirting with a male elf from time to time...  I dunno it just seems silly to be exclusive when honestly it wouldn't take much work to include such a thing, as they have proven before...

    Ultimately I don't see a point in having sexually related content in a star wars game...

         I agree with your last part, I don't see a need for any kind of sexual innuendo in the game either except for maybe light flirting if a storyline calls for it, but that is where our agreement ends.

        Comparing this game to previous BioWare titles that did include a homosexual relationship is only appropriate is you do not compare the prices involved in creating them.  This game already costs over $100 million (USD) and you want to spend even more to make homosexual oriented story lines?  Then pay even more for the Voice Overs?  Then have to worry about how many parents would not let their children play the game after they found out?

         I could be wrong, but I see this feature loosing BioWare more money than it would gain them.

        Also, just because they do something once means they always have to do it?  Seriously?  If that were the case then BioWare NEVER would have had homosexual relationships in their games to begin with.  They didn't do it before after all, so they shouldn't be doing it now according to your logic.

       

    "If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"

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