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SWTOR you break my heart :(

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  • impiroimpiro onbekendPosts: 204Member

    Originally posted by bigsmiff

    Originally posted by hundejahre

    And for all you whiny little white straight men out there crying "Get over yourself!" and "What do you expect?", would you be saying the same thing if they announced thee would be no romance options for blacks? The handicapped? Women?

    Yeah, you probably would.


     

     

    You cannot compare race, the handicapped nor women in this. Those three examples are natural...gay is not natural. Men and women were designed to be with the opposite sex. And if you call me homophobe, so be it. I will accept that...

    You argument is invalid as Humans where not designed in the first place. Along side that, naturallity is a human term and thereby artificial. In reality no human could ever act  unnatural as the therm human covers all that what human is. To call homesexuality unnatural would be silly, as it is impossible for a human to act unnatural. Any human behaviour is human behaviour, there is no right or wrong in this. Any sub-definition of natural is aritifical and based on formality, and thereby not universal.  Our own invented terms to differentiate arn't worth anything, leaving us in the dark when it comes to these kind of discussions. Leave your ariticial and thereby non-univeral morals out of it, as there is no place for it.

  • WiezardWiezard Houston, TXPosts: 158Member

    Originally posted by Leoghan

    Originally posted by Wiezard


    Originally posted by P2PGamer

    OP, I hate to say it but you are correct.

    It's sad they ignore same sex relationships in their games, yet they allow all the crap they do.

    kill...

    eat other people...

    sell drugs...

    do exercisms..

    rape...

    run around naked...

    but oh noooooo, they draw the line at same sex relationships

    Very hypocritical of the gaming companies especially when these games are suppose to be RPGs

    If this was an MMO based on ME universe i am sure they would add same sex relationship. But since LA likes to control SW IP, how do you expect Bioware to add it into game? moreover considering there was hardly a mention of any prominent gay characters in Star Wars universe? when people think SW, gay couple is last thing they think about.

    When I think SW, sex is the last thing I think about in general, yet they included it in heterosexual form. 

    They you mean George Lucas? Bioware is only following the IP and limits set in front of them by LA. You people act as if Bioware controls the IP and is making all decisions on it's own. LA is notorious like Game Workshop in controlling every aspect of game development.

    If LA feels same sex relationships are not needed in SWTOR what can bioware do about it?

  • P2PGamerP2PGamer Trolls, AKPosts: 121Member

    Originally posted by Leoghan

    Originally posted by Wiezard

    Originally posted by P2PGamer

    Power to the Sheeple

  • NormikeNormike san francisco, CAPosts: 436Member

    Originally posted by generals3

    Originally posted by Normike


    Originally posted by generals3


    Originally posted by Normike

    /popcorn

    This is some of the most entertaining stuff. 

    You got the posters who think gay people are "very rare" and this is a non issue. lol

    In business that is actually quite accurate.

    You got the posters who think gay people are equivalent to being attracted to a box or an animal. lol

    While i disagree based on certain premises what would be the difference according to you?

    You got the posters who think gay people aren't really discriminated against or ignored in games so what's the issue. lol

    And they're correct. Or wait lemmi guess WoW discriminates against asians because there are no asian type characters.

    You got the posters who think gay discrimination is normal for gaming, so whats the big deal.  lol

    You got the posters who think the gay issue is more adult and explicit-y than being straight. lol

     

    It reminds me when I was in highschool and this bully was telling a joke about this black classmate and he used the term "porch monkey" and everyone laughed. And my eye balls almost fell out of my head. Is this really happening? Or the time one of my co-workers said she couldn't stand chinese. Almost spit out my coffee.

     

    I think this is the kind of thread that just attracts people like that. They see their prejudice and the way they were raised as if everyone thinks like that.

    -In business gay people make up same percentage as they do in the population, around 10%. Polls have shown that gay people actually have an even larger usage than that when it comes to online technology and applications. That's not "very rare."

    You'll have to link me those numbers from reliable sources matey. I won't believe your word for it.

    -People who think that gay relationships are the same as being attracted to a box or an animal are comparable to people who think blacks or asians are animals... 

    Nice dodge. You claim that yet you can't find any reasons.

    Find me reasons, i have some, but i want to hear some from those great crusaders.

    -The vast majority of games include heterosexual sexuality (not sex) and ignore homosexuality, even though there almost as many gay gamers as there are black gamers. Yet many games include black characters. The reason gay characters are often not written into games is due to writers and designers not wanting to deal with the issue. That's discriminatin, whether indirect or direct. It's still discrimination.

    No it's not discrimination. It would be discrimnation to force people to deal with such issues. A discrimination against heterosexuals because people don't have the choice anymore to limit their products to that.

     

    That's like saying not every company needs to have a black employee. But when you have a pattern of companies not hiring black employees, then there's definitely some discrimination going on. Here's a list of games where the main character, if not all the characters, are assumed to be straight by default.

     

    http://www.emarketer.com/Reports/All/Emarketer_2000408.aspx That one is pretty typical of most surveys and studies about GLBT business and internet presence.

     

    What? LOL Are you really asking me to explain why a gay relationship is not the same as bestiality? Are you really? Is this a prank? I'm sorry, I can't argue with you about your religious beliefs.  If you can't analyze and figure out that two consenting healthy people in a relationship is not the same as a human abusing an animal then I don't have much to talk with you about.

     

    So it's discrimination against schools to force schools to be integrated? Really? The reason why they had to force integration was due to the schools not allowing blacks to attend. The reason companies were forced to adopt "equal opportunity hiring" was because they weren't hiring black employees. It's funny how you turn it around and say "oh no it's the school or company that is being discriminated against."

    The same view that forcing integration is discrimination is not new. The same thing was said in the 1970s when people began complaining that there weren't really any black characters, and certainly no positve ones, on tv. Things changed because people got on the issue. Forcing people to stop discriminating against a people that they don't like for religious or cultural reasons is not discrimination LOL.

  • hundejahrehundejahre Chicago, ILPosts: 339Member

    Originally posted by Normike:

    "-In business gay people make up same percentage as they do in the population, around 10%. Polls have shown that gay people actually have an even larger usage than that when it comes to online technology and applications. That's not "very rare."
    -People who think that gay relationships are the same as being attracted to a box or an animal are comparable to people who think blacks or asians are animals... 
    -The vast majority of games include heterosexual sexuality (not sex) and ignore homosexuality, even though there almost as many gay gamers as there are black gamers. Yet many games include black characters. The reason gay characters are often not written into games is due to writers and designers not wanting to deal with the issue. That's discriminatin, whether indirect or direct. It's still discrimination."
     

    Some very good points, which I don't argue with. I do have a problem with your numbers for the percentage of gays in the general population as this is regularly reported wrong.

    This figure comes from the work of Alfred Kinsey, and while most researchers in this field consider his work very important for bringing up such topics, most now dispute that his subjects represented the U.S. population (he used far too many college students and prison inmates while almost completely ignoring older people, poor people, and people in rural locations). And even then, Kinsey concluded that only about 4% of men and 2% of woman identified themselves as EXCLUSIVELY homosexual, while the 10% was a number based on those who had admitted ever having a same sex attraction whether acted on or not.

    The more recent and must better represented 1994 Edward Laumann study puts those identifying themselves as homosexual at 2.8% of U.S. men and 1.4% of U.S. woman, roughly 6 million people. If you only count those reporting having SOME homosexual activity in their lifetimes it's 9.1% of U.S. men and 4.3% of U.S. women, or about 20 million people in the U.S.

    This should in NO way detract from the argument. My point is to shore it up with correct numbers, not attempt to tear it down. Discrimination against 1 is wrong, against 6,000,000 to 20,000,000 is a little harder to justify.

  • P2PGamerP2PGamer Trolls, AKPosts: 121Member

    Originally posted by Wiezard

    Originally posted by Leoghan

    Originally posted by Wiezard

    Originally posted by P2PGamer

    OP, I hate to say it but you are correct.

    It's sad they ignore same sex relationships in their games, yet they allow all the crap they do.

    kill...

    eat other people...

    sell drugs...

    do exercisms..

    rape...

    run around naked...

    but oh noooooo, they draw the line at same sex relationships

    Very hypocritical of the gaming companies especially when these games are suppose to be RPGs

    If this was an MMO based on ME universe i am sure they would add same sex relationship. But since LA likes to control SW IP, how do you expect Bioware to add it into game? moreover considering there was hardly a mention of any prominent gay characters in Star Wars universe? when people think SW, gay couple is last thing they think about.

    When I think SW, sex is the last thing I think about in general, yet they included it in heterosexual form. 

    They you mean George Lucas? Bioware is only following the IP and limits set in front of them by LA. You people act as if Bioware controls the IP and is making all decisions on it's own. LA is notorious like Game Workshop in controlling every aspect of game development.

    If LA feels same sex relationships are not needed in SWTOR what can bioware do about it?

     

    I agree.  How ever, if you are going to offer sexual relationships with NPCs, you damn sure not put a limitation on it.  That is the hypocritical part.  Either have it open for all, or not at all.  Simple as that.

    Power to the Sheeple

  • NormikeNormike san francisco, CAPosts: 436Member

    Originally posted by Wiezard

    Originally posted by Leoghan


    Originally posted by Wiezard


    Originally posted by P2PGamer

    OP, I hate to say it but you are correct.

    It's sad they ignore same sex relationships in their games, yet they allow all the crap they do.

    kill...

    eat other people...

    sell drugs...

    do exercisms..

    rape...

    run around naked...

    but oh noooooo, they draw the line at same sex relationships

    Very hypocritical of the gaming companies especially when these games are suppose to be RPGs

    If this was an MMO based on ME universe i am sure they would add same sex relationship. But since LA likes to control SW IP, how do you expect Bioware to add it into game? moreover considering there was hardly a mention of any prominent gay characters in Star Wars universe? when people think SW, gay couple is last thing they think about.

    When I think SW, sex is the last thing I think about in general, yet they included it in heterosexual form. 

    They you mean George Lucas? Bioware is only following the IP and limits set in front of them by LA. You people act as if Bioware controls the IP and is making all decisions on it's own. LA is notorious like Game Workshop in controlling every aspect of game development.

    If LA feels same sex relationships are not needed in SWTOR what can bioware do about it?

    We don't know that's the reason. That would be making an assumption...

    Lucas Arts has a policy that gay characters exist in Star Wars. George Lucas donated $50,000 to the pro gay marriage petition in California. Lucas Arts had no issue with a lesbian romance in KOTOR 1.

     

    Until we hear from Bioware we don't know what the reason why is. They have said they will give a resposne, which is what most people are waiting for. Then I will know whether to boycott Bioware or LucasArts. Cheers!

  • LeoghanLeoghan Herndon, VAPosts: 607Member

    Originally posted by Wiezard

    Originally posted by Leoghan


    Originally posted by Wiezard


    Originally posted by P2PGamer

    OP, I hate to say it but you are correct.

    It's sad they ignore same sex relationships in their games, yet they allow all the crap they do.

    kill...

    eat other people...

    sell drugs...

    do exercisms..

    rape...

    run around naked...

    but oh noooooo, they draw the line at same sex relationships

    Very hypocritical of the gaming companies especially when these games are suppose to be RPGs

    If this was an MMO based on ME universe i am sure they would add same sex relationship. But since LA likes to control SW IP, how do you expect Bioware to add it into game? moreover considering there was hardly a mention of any prominent gay characters in Star Wars universe? when people think SW, gay couple is last thing they think about.

    When I think SW, sex is the last thing I think about in general, yet they included it in heterosexual form. 

    They you mean George Lucas? Bioware is only following the IP and limits set in front of them by LA. You people act as if Bioware controls the IP and is making all decisions on it's own. LA is notorious like Game Workshop in controlling every aspect of game development.

    If LA feels same sex relationships are not needed in SWTOR what can bioware do about it?

    Oh good lord, how many times does this need to be posted. LA has already approved gays in the SW universe with 

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Goran_Beviin

    "Beviin was known as something of a traditionalist, and used old-fashioned equipment, including highly illegalcrushgaunts,[1] and beskar armor that was colored blue.[4] Beviin was homosexual, and settled down with his partner, Medrit Vasur, some time before 24 ABY.[1] The couple went on to adopt a daughter, Dinua Jeban. Beviin was a family man and was welcoming of guests on his farm.[2] Boba Fett thought of Beviin as all heart and courage, and not afraid of the pain of love.[3] He was the closest the anti-social Fett had to a friend.[2] Fett thought that Beviin would make a good Mandalore, but Beviin did not want to lead, and would rather stay on his farm.[5]Beviin held a deep hatred for the Yuuzhan Vong, and advocated killing every one. Beviin also held a dislike for the Jedi, and described Kubariet as "the only Jedi I've ever trusted."[3]"

  • WiezardWiezard Houston, TXPosts: 158Member

    Originally posted by P2PGamer

     

    I agree.  How ever, if you are going to offer sexual relationships with NPCs, you damn sure not put a limitation on it.  That is the hypocritical part.  Either have it open for all, or not at all.  Simple as that.

    Not saying you are wrong. my main point is that people need to stop blaming Bioware as final decision is in hand of LA. 

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    Originally posted by P2PGamer

    Originally posted by Wiezard

    Originally posted by Leoghan

    Originally posted by Wiezard

    Originally posted by P2PGamer

    OP, I hate to say it but you are correct.

    It's sad they ignore same sex relationships in their games, yet they allow all the crap they do.

    kill...

    eat other people...

    sell drugs...

    do exercisms..

    rape...

    run around naked...

    but oh noooooo, they draw the line at same sex relationships

    Very hypocritical of the gaming companies especially when these games are suppose to be RPGs

    If this was an MMO based on ME universe i am sure they would add same sex relationship. But since LA likes to control SW IP, how do you expect Bioware to add it into game? moreover considering there was hardly a mention of any prominent gay characters in Star Wars universe? when people think SW, gay couple is last thing they think about.

    When I think SW, sex is the last thing I think about in general, yet they included it in heterosexual form. 

    They you mean George Lucas? Bioware is only following the IP and limits set in front of them by LA. You people act as if Bioware controls the IP and is making all decisions on it's own. LA is notorious like Game Workshop in controlling every aspect of game development.

    If LA feels same sex relationships are not needed in SWTOR what can bioware do about it?

     

    I agree.  How ever, if you are going to offer sexual relationships with NPCs, you damn sure not put a limitation on it.  That is the hypocritical part.  Either have it open for all, or not at all.  Simple as that.

     You act as if allowing homosexual relationships is as easy as just flicking a switch when I really don't think this is the case.  It's highly likely that a lot of the romance dialog/cutscenes are gender specific.  This means that BW would have to make specific homosexual romance dialog for each and every class.  This is a lot of work.

    In addition, they would have to make sure that every class had at least one female and male companion available to them that is bisexual or gay.  And personally, I hate the solution of making EVERY companion bisexual or gay like is was in DA2.  It just makes the game feel cheesy and unrealistic.  It takes away from the character building BW tries to do because you know that making all companions bisexual is basically just a contrivance.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • WiezardWiezard Houston, TXPosts: 158Member

    Originally posted by Leoghan

    Originally posted by Wiezard


    Originally posted by Leoghan


    Originally posted by Wiezard


    Originally posted by P2PGamer

    OP, I hate to say it but you are correct.

    It's sad they ignore same sex relationships in their games, yet they allow all the crap they do.

    kill...

    eat other people...

    sell drugs...

    do exercisms..

    rape...

    run around naked...

    but oh noooooo, they draw the line at same sex relationships

    Very hypocritical of the gaming companies especially when these games are suppose to be RPGs

    If this was an MMO based on ME universe i am sure they would add same sex relationship. But since LA likes to control SW IP, how do you expect Bioware to add it into game? moreover considering there was hardly a mention of any prominent gay characters in Star Wars universe? when people think SW, gay couple is last thing they think about.

    When I think SW, sex is the last thing I think about in general, yet they included it in heterosexual form. 

    They you mean George Lucas? Bioware is only following the IP and limits set in front of them by LA. You people act as if Bioware controls the IP and is making all decisions on it's own. LA is notorious like Game Workshop in controlling every aspect of game development.

    If LA feels same sex relationships are not needed in SWTOR what can bioware do about it?

    Oh good lord, how many times does this need to be posted. LA has already approved gays in the SW universe with 

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Goran_Beviin

    "Beviin was known as something of a traditionalist, and used old-fashioned equipment, including highly illegalcrushgaunts,[1] and beskar armor that was colored blue.[4] Beviin was homosexual, and settled down with his partner, Medrit Vasur, some time before 24 ABY.[1] The couple went on to adopt a daughter, Dinua Jeban. Beviin was a family man and was welcoming of guests on his farm.[2] Boba Fett thought of Beviin as all heart and courage, and not afraid of the pain of love.[3] He was the closest the anti-social Fett had to a friend.[2] Fett thought that Beviin would make a good Mandalore, but Beviin did not want to lead, and would rather stay on his farm.[5]Beviin held a deep hatred for the Yuuzhan Vong, and advocated killing every one. Beviin also held a dislike for the Jedi, and described Kubariet as "the only Jedi I've ever trusted."[3]"

    Didn't you post this earlier? one character out of hundereds of prominent characters in SW universe? and if you read my posts i never said anything about approving or disapproving. Ofcourse gays exist in SW universe but that doesn't mean that LA would allow Bioware to put them in fore front as main and prominent characters.

    It is their IP their story they can twist, it change it as they like. Now if Luke was gay one would say 'hey the main character in SW was gay the most crucial character, so why not add it in videogames'. How many even heard of Beviin? such an obsecure and un important character. The fact is that LA never intended to bring same sex relationships and gay characters in focus. They exist yes but LA is not acknowledging them something to focus on in SWTOR.

  • hundejahrehundejahre Chicago, ILPosts: 339Member


    Originally posted by bigsmiff

    Originally posted by hundejahre

    And for all you whiny little white straight men out there crying "Get over yourself!" and "What do you expect?", would you be saying the same thing if they announced thee would be no romance options for blacks? The handicapped? Women?
    Yeah, you probably would.
     

     


    You cannot compare race, the handicapped nor women in this. Those three examples are natural...gay is not natural. Men and women were designed to be with the opposite sex. And if you call me homophobe, so be it. I will accept that...




    Humans aren't the only animals that have and practice homosexuality, so please explain how it isn't natural.

    Men and women weren't designed, we evolved and will one day be gone just like everything else. Did gay kill the dinosaurs?

    If my legs are crushed in an industrial press at work and must be amputated in a hospital is that natural or am I not really handicapped?

    I won't call you a homophobe although you seem far too eager to self-identify with that. I will suggest you may be ignorant and fearful, but both of those can be easily overcome. Once you know the actual truth about people and lose the fear, life around other people different than you becomes so much easier.

  • LeoghanLeoghan Herndon, VAPosts: 607Member

    Originally posted by Wiezard

    Originally posted by Leoghan


    Originally posted by Wiezard


    Originally posted by Leoghan


    Originally posted by Wiezard


    Originally posted by P2PGamer

    OP, I hate to say it but you are correct.

    It's sad they ignore same sex relationships in their games, yet they allow all the crap they do.

    kill...

    eat other people...

    sell drugs...

    do exercisms..

    rape...

    run around naked...

    but oh noooooo, they draw the line at same sex relationships

    Very hypocritical of the gaming companies especially when these games are suppose to be RPGs

    If this was an MMO based on ME universe i am sure they would add same sex relationship. But since LA likes to control SW IP, how do you expect Bioware to add it into game? moreover considering there was hardly a mention of any prominent gay characters in Star Wars universe? when people think SW, gay couple is last thing they think about.

    When I think SW, sex is the last thing I think about in general, yet they included it in heterosexual form. 

    They you mean George Lucas? Bioware is only following the IP and limits set in front of them by LA. You people act as if Bioware controls the IP and is making all decisions on it's own. LA is notorious like Game Workshop in controlling every aspect of game development.

    If LA feels same sex relationships are not needed in SWTOR what can bioware do about it?

    Oh good lord, how many times does this need to be posted. LA has already approved gays in the SW universe with 

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Goran_Beviin

    "Beviin was known as something of a traditionalist, and used old-fashioned equipment, including highly illegalcrushgaunts,[1] and beskar armor that was colored blue.[4] Beviin was homosexual, and settled down with his partner, Medrit Vasur, some time before 24 ABY.[1] The couple went on to adopt a daughter, Dinua Jeban. Beviin was a family man and was welcoming of guests on his farm.[2] Boba Fett thought of Beviin as all heart and courage, and not afraid of the pain of love.[3] He was the closest the anti-social Fett had to a friend.[2] Fett thought that Beviin would make a good Mandalore, but Beviin did not want to lead, and would rather stay on his farm.[5]Beviin held a deep hatred for the Yuuzhan Vong, and advocated killing every one. Beviin also held a dislike for the Jedi, and described Kubariet as "the only Jedi I've ever trusted."[3]"

    Didn't you post this earlier? one character out of hundereds of prominent characters in SW universe? and if you read my posts i never said anything about approving or disapproving. Ofcourse gays exist in SW universe but that doesn't mean that LA would allow Bioware to put them in fore front as main and prominent characters.

    It is their IP their story they can twist, it change it as they like. Now if Luke was gay one would say 'hey the main character in SW was gay the most crucial character, so why not add it in videogames'. How many even heard of Beviin? such an obsecure and un important character. The fact is that LA never intended to bring same sex relationships and gay characters in focus. They exist yes but LA is not acknowledging them something to focus on in SWTOR.

    Your argument is that this is a Lucas Arts call, but we have no evidence to suggest that Lucas Arts made that call, in fact we have evidence to the contrary that they would have a problem with gays in the SW universe. This game isn't about playing Luke or Obi Wan or Vader, it is about playing "a" character in the SW universe not about "the" characters. 

  • LeoghanLeoghan Herndon, VAPosts: 607Member

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Originally posted by P2PGamer


    Originally posted by Wiezard


    Originally posted by Leoghan


    Originally posted by Wiezard


    Originally posted by P2PGamer

    OP, I hate to say it but you are correct.

    It's sad they ignore same sex relationships in their games, yet they allow all the crap they do.

    kill...

    eat other people...

    sell drugs...

    do exercisms..

    rape...

    run around naked...

    but oh noooooo, they draw the line at same sex relationships

    Very hypocritical of the gaming companies especially when these games are suppose to be RPGs

    If this was an MMO based on ME universe i am sure they would add same sex relationship. But since LA likes to control SW IP, how do you expect Bioware to add it into game? moreover considering there was hardly a mention of any prominent gay characters in Star Wars universe? when people think SW, gay couple is last thing they think about.

    When I think SW, sex is the last thing I think about in general, yet they included it in heterosexual form. 

    They you mean George Lucas? Bioware is only following the IP and limits set in front of them by LA. You people act as if Bioware controls the IP and is making all decisions on it's own. LA is notorious like Game Workshop in controlling every aspect of game development.

    If LA feels same sex relationships are not needed in SWTOR what can bioware do about it?

     

    I agree.  How ever, if you are going to offer sexual relationships with NPCs, you damn sure not put a limitation on it.  That is the hypocritical part.  Either have it open for all, or not at all.  Simple as that.

     You act as if allowing homosexual relationships is as easy as just flicking a switch when I really don't think this is the case.  It's highly likely that a lot of the romance dialog/cutscenes are gender specific.  This means that BW would have to make specific homosexual romance dialog for each and every class.  This is a lot of work.

    In addition, they would have to make sure that every class had at least one female and male companion available to them that is bisexual or gay.  And personally, I hate the solution of making EVERY companion bisexual or gay like is was in DA2.  It just makes the game feel cheesy and unrealistic.  It takes away from the character building BW tries to do because you know that making all companions bisexual is basically just a contrivance.

    I'll bet if they only made one class per side have the option of a gay relationship most people would be ok with that. There would be grumbling, but I doubt you'd see the anger that you are seeing now. 

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    Originally posted by hundejahre

     




    Originally posted by bigsmiff





    Originally posted by hundejahre





    And for all you whiny little white straight men out there crying "Get over yourself!" and "What do you expect?", would you be saying the same thing if they announced thee would be no romance options for blacks? The handicapped? Women?

    Yeah, you probably would.

     

     






     


     

     



     

    You cannot compare race, the handicapped nor women in this. Those three examples are natural...gay is not natural. Men and women were designed to be with the opposite sex. And if you call me homophobe, so be it. I will accept that...







     

    Humans aren't the only animals that have and practice homosexuality, so please explain how it isn't natural.

    Men and women weren't designed, we evolved and will one day be gone just like everything else. Did gay kill the dinosaurs?

    If my legs are crushed in an industrial press at work and must be amputated in a hospital is that natural or am I not really handicapped?

    I won't call you a homophobe although you seem far too eager to self-identify with that. I will suggest you may be ignorant and fearful, but both of those can be easily overcome. Once you know the actual truth about people and lose the fear, life around other people different than you becomes so much easier.

    Just to add to this, here is an article about scientists that are able to manipulate the sexual orientation of fruit flies by playing with their genes and their brains:

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316316,00.html

    Sure makes it seem like homosexuality has some kind of natural physical component.

    Personally, I believe that people can be born gay or straight and can also "learn" to be gay or straight through socialization.  Don't believe me?  Just look at the culture of ancient Greece.  Many men (especially soldiers) were encouraged to engage in gay relationships and they did so.  You can also look at girls in the modern era that experiment with homosexuality to gain attention.

    Basically, humans are complicated.  I don't think it's as simple as "you're born gay" or "you learn gay."  It can probably be both.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • NormikeNormike san francisco, CAPosts: 436Member

    Originally posted by hundejahre

    Originally posted by Normike:

    "-In business gay people make up same percentage as they do in the population, around 10%. Polls have shown that gay people actually have an even larger usage than that when it comes to online technology and applications. That's not "very rare."

    -People who think that gay relationships are the same as being attracted to a box or an animal are comparable to people who think blacks or asians are animals... 

    -The vast majority of games include heterosexual sexuality (not sex) and ignore homosexuality, even though there almost as many gay gamers as there are black gamers. Yet many games include black characters. The reason gay characters are often not written into games is due to writers and designers not wanting to deal with the issue. That's discriminatin, whether indirect or direct. It's still discrimination."

     

     

    Some very good points, which I don't argue with. I do have a problem with your numbers for the percentage of gays in the general population as this is regularly reported wrong.

    This figure comes from the work of Alfred Kinsey, and while most researchers in this field consider his work very important for bringing up such topics, most now dispute that his subjects represented the U.S. population (he used far too many college students and prison inmates while almost completely ignoring older people, poor people, and people in rural locations). And even then, Kinsey concluded that only about 4% of men and 2% of woman identified themselves as EXCLUSIVELY homosexual, while the 10% was a number based on those who had admitted ever having a same sex attraction whether acted on or not.

    The more recent and must better represented 1994 Edward Laumann study puts those identifying themselves as homosexual at 2.8% of U.S. men and 1.4% of U.S. woman, roughly 6 million people. If you only count those reporting having SOME homosexual activity in their lifetimes it's 9.1% of U.S. men and 4.3% of U.S. women, or about 20 million people in the U.S.

    This should in NO way detract from the argument. My point is to shore it up with correct numbers, not attempt to tear it down. Discrimination against 1 is wrong, against 6,000,000 to 20,000,000 is a little harder to justify.

    Disagree with those numbers. Just because there's a huge amount of prejudice and stigma towards gays, lesbians, and bisexuals. As a result many are in the closest just because it's easier. They don't have to deal with losing a job, losing friends, losing their family members due to prejudice. All you have to do is look at the news of all these "straight" married men caught cheating with another man. 

    It's the same reason that many biracial people in the US used to try to pass as white, and often simply told themselves they were white. Because of the stigma and prejudice. The same is true for being gay. It's a trait that some people can hide, there is no heredity to trace either as with race. The most popular recent example is married republican state representative Phil Hinkle of Indiana that was caught soliciting sex from an 18 year old male for $80. His current statement is "I'm not gay. I don't know what I was thinking."

    These people are not going to put a tick next to gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgendered on a survey no matter how anonymous it is. The do not identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgendered even though they beyond a doubt they are. So in the end you have a poll that is asking people to voluntarily anonymously tell what their sexuality is. The pol will always be wrong. Now when we get quick and easy walk-through brain scanning then you'll get more honsesty about the percentage of gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgendered people in the population. And that time is not very far off at all.

  • NivisiruNivisiru Spokane, WAPosts: 186Member

    Maybe I'm just way off here... though this is how I see it. Its a RPG. Each character has his own personality. They are not dictating your own character, just the companions. Now to think ANYONE would find love with the very few companions you have, is just rare. Even more so probly if you swing that way. If the # of companions was massive, I would be like wth! Though the pool of NPC companions is not massive.  So none of your companions are into you. Ok thats how life is for the most part no? Its rare over all to find love in small groups for anyone. This does not change who you are.

    I just don't like the argument that you have a set group of people, and they must be a mix of everything to make everyone happen. Be it moves, commercials, everything. Thats not real to me, thats not how the world works. There other players out there who you can find that will fit you better. People try to cater to everyone  too much. I find leaving it to people to find there own happense is more rewarding, cause its more rare. Thats why I play MMO's, for the other players, not the NPC's. Sorry if I come off as a jerk, I just don't see why people are so upset. There is so much more to the game. And if this one thing is what your looking for, its still could be there among the player base, just not the NPC's.

  • jadan2000jadan2000 roosevelt, NYPosts: 511Member

    Originally posted by Elikal

    I try to write this as neutral and as friendly as I am capable. I try to avoid a certain topic, which only will cause a flamewar. I will not speak about the reasons, just how I feel, because spending in this game community for 5 years I feel I have to share this with you.

     

    Since 2008, I followed the making of SWTOR. I read every post many times, I analyzed every picture, I watched every video many times. Being a huge fan of Star Wars and Bioware RPGs, despite all small things I did not like, I was greatly looking forward to SWTOR, and I honestly felt, it would be a dream of a lifetime of gaming. Yes I know some of you may not see me that way, because I critizised some things and went mad at others, but I always kept a great love and hope for this game.

    Now things have transpired. And these 3 days have been bad. I know you may say, pathetic, how can one cling so to a mere MMORPG that it affects him so. Sorry. But so it is. I spent the last 3-4 days all on the official SWTOR forum, renewing the Dev Tracker every hour, thinking this must be a mistake. It must be a dream. It is just some small error! And all will be made good soon. But now, after 4 days of silence I realize. It is the truth.

    We. Do. Not. Exist. In Star Wars. It is a world where love is only for you, and for us.

    I do not want to discuss the reasons or the validity. Following the short and soon locked discussion here on this forum and seeing the replies has disheartened me further. I never thought a MMO forum was a place for idealists. But it was even for my cold and old heart a cut. The scorn, the mockery, the acidic comments.

    And there I stand, looking at a place that does not want me. That wants me and all of my kind out, away, invisible, and 1000s of people clap and hurrah and this. I always wonder what we did that some hate us so much, when all we wanted was the same acceptance for love as you have for you. And I look at a hobby, that was supposed to make me feel better as escapism from a hard life, and now all the darknes and scorn and strife from RL has caught up with the hobby I so used to love and I see, there is no place to escape for the likes of me. And what shall I do? Leave behind the hobby I love because some people meet my kind with hate and mockery only?

    But that you, Bioware, of all people left us in the rain, that hurt me. Like some familar friend out of the blue stabbed me in the back.

     

    Laugh about it all you must. It is always easy to laugh about someone.

    A friend of mine, who stopped playing games 2 years ago, sent me this cartoon with the words: This is why I stopped playing Online Games.

    I can't laugh about it. Because it is way too true.

    http://theoatmeal.com/comics/online_gaming

     

    The worst thing of it all is, that we can't even discuss it, despite the fact that this is a forum supposed to discuss, because a handful acidic & mean people will flame and troll until all discussions are destroyed and all threads are closed. And I know they always win. I am old enough to understand that.

    Still I have to leave this message here, whatever may come afterwards.

    Thanks.

     

     

    Dont worry. the time will come. The powers that be just havent let go of certain things yet. i remember two years ago when there would be avid conversations on these forums about having dark skin for more ethnic diversity. What would kill me is that there were people here who didnt understand that people who arent white might want to be ble to make a toon in there likeness, same as them...... but now its coming around more in video games. so hopefully it will come around soon for homosexuality. i wouldnt let it ruin your game play though. Immature players are a part of MMO's now and they will flame all day becaus ethere are no ramifications. They more then likely wouldnt say any of these things face to face. 

    i remember during teh NGE days when SOE would have there summits. i went to one in ATL and these other kids who were avid flammers of me on teh forums came past me, and all of a sudden we were buddies... im not going to explain how that conversation went but i can tell you that they never spoke to me like that again, lol...

     

    so dotn sweat it. Say what you feel needs to be said for teh better of gaming!

     

     

    image

  • WiezardWiezard Houston, TXPosts: 158Member

    Originally posted by Leoghan

    Your argument is that this is a Lucas Arts call, but we have no evidence to suggest that Lucas Arts made that call, in fact we have evidence to the contrary that they would have a problem with gays in the SW universe. This game isn't about playing Luke or Obi Wan or Vader, it is about playing "a" character in the SW universe not about "the" characters. 

    it is called common sense and lessons learned from history of SW and how LA like to control SW IP.  And what evidence you have to contrary? an obsecure and forgettable character called Beviin who makes no impact or difference to SW universe? there is difference between acknowledging that gay exists in SW universe and whole different matter to put them in front as main characters.

    it would be foolish to think that Bioware is dictating LA to what to do or what not to do with their IP.

  • LeoghanLeoghan Herndon, VAPosts: 607Member

    Originally posted by Wiezard

    Originally posted by Leoghan


    Your argument is that this is a Lucas Arts call, but we have no evidence to suggest that Lucas Arts made that call, in fact we have evidence to the contrary that they would have a problem with gays in the SW universe. This game isn't about playing Luke or Obi Wan or Vader, it is about playing "a" character in the SW universe not about "the" characters. 

    it is called common sense and lessons learned from history of SW and how LA like to control SW IP.  And what evidence you have to contrary? an obsecure and forgettable character called Beviin who makes no impact or difference to SW universe? there is difference between acknowledging that gay exists in SW universe and whole different matter to put them in front as main characters.

    it would be foolish to think that Bioware is dictating LA to what to do or what not to do with their IP.

    I hate to break it to you, but your character in SWTOR is never going to be more widely known than "Beviin", not your specific character with your specific choices. 

    It is foolish to assume anything, that this is bioware is as possible as it is that it is EA's call or LA's call. You are the one making the assumption. I'm pointing out the contradictory evidence to the assumption. I don't really care who made the call, I do on the other hand realize that it is one that has hurt a large portion of biowares supporters and I can empathize with that. 

    Oddly enough we see percentages thrown around this agrument alot, but few have acknowledged that this decision is likely to upset more of bioware's supporters than it is the general gaming public because of the fact that bioware themselves has included this kind of gameplay in the past. 

    The one thing that is bioware's fault is not giving the reason for it's exclusion in SWTOR and I think that is the reason so many people seem to feel hurt by the decision. 

  • hundejahrehundejahre Chicago, ILPosts: 339Member


    Originally posted by Normike

    Originally posted by hundejahre
    Originally posted by Normike:
    "-In business gay people make up same percentage as they do in the population, around 10%. Polls have shown that gay people actually have an even larger usage than that when it comes to online technology and applications. That's not "very rare."
    -People who think that gay relationships are the same as being attracted to a box or an animal are comparable to people who think blacks or asians are animals... 
    -The vast majority of games include heterosexual sexuality (not sex) and ignore homosexuality, even though there almost as many gay gamers as there are black gamers. Yet many games include black characters. The reason gay characters are often not written into games is due to writers and designers not wanting to deal with the issue. That's discriminatin, whether indirect or direct. It's still discrimination."
     
     
    Some very good points, which I don't argue with. I do have a problem with your numbers for the percentage of gays in the general population as this is regularly reported wrong.
    This figure comes from the work of Alfred Kinsey, and while most researchers in this field consider his work very important for bringing up such topics, most now dispute that his subjects represented the U.S. population (he used far too many college students and prison inmates while almost completely ignoring older people, poor people, and people in rural locations). And even then, Kinsey concluded that only about 4% of men and 2% of woman identified themselves as EXCLUSIVELY homosexual, while the 10% was a number based on those who had admitted ever having a same sex attraction whether acted on or not.
    The more recent and must better represented 1994 Edward Laumann study puts those identifying themselves as homosexual at 2.8% of U.S. men and 1.4% of U.S. woman, roughly 6 million people. If you only count those reporting having SOME homosexual activity in their lifetimes it's 9.1% of U.S. men and 4.3% of U.S. women, or about 20 million people in the U.S.
    This should in NO way detract from the argument. My point is to shore it up with correct numbers, not attempt to tear it down. Discrimination against 1 is wrong, against 6,000,000 to 20,000,000 is a little harder to justify.
    Disagree with those numbers. Just because there's a huge amount of prejudice and stigma towards gays, lesbians, and bisexuals. As a result many are in the closest just because it's easier. They don't have to deal with losing a job, losing friends, losing their family members due to prejudice. All you have to do is look at the news of all these "straight" married men caught cheating with another man. 
    It's the same reason that many biracial people in the US used to try to pass as white, and often simply told themselves they were white. Because of the stigma and prejudice. The same is true for being gay. It's a trait that some people can hide, there is no heredity to trace either as with race. The most popular recent example is married republican state representative Phil Hinkle of Indiana that was caught soliciting sex from an 18 year old male for $80. His current statement is "I'm not gay. I don't know what I was thinking."
    These people are not going to put a tick next to gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgendered on a survey no matter how anonymous it is. The do not identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgendered even though they beyond a doubt they are. So in the end you have a poll that is asking people to voluntarily anonymously tell what their sexuality is. The pol will always be wrong. Now when we get quick and easy walk-through brain scanning then you'll get more honsesty about the percentage of gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgendered people in the population. And that time is not very far off at all.

    Take a look at the study and how it's conducted. You do a dis-service to your argument ignoring well researched data. Your examples even fit in quite nicely with the numbers given the huge gap between those admitting to having had an experience to those who claim it as their sole sexual identity.

    The study actually takes well into account people who only "came out" late in life. I agree the TRUE number lies somewhere between the two, but I am unwilling to force someone into a role like sexual identity that they are unwilling to accept for themselves. To do so makes me no better than those such people are trying to hide from in the first place.

  • ktanner3ktanner3 lakeland, FLPosts: 4,074Member Common

    Originally posted by Nivisiru

    Maybe I'm just way off here... though this is how I see it. Its a RPG. Each character has his own personality. They are not dictating your own character, just the companions. Now to think ANYONE would find love with the very few companions you have, is just rare. Even more so probly if you swing that way. If the # of companions was massive, I would be like wth! Though the pool of NPC companions is not massive.  So none of your companions are into you. Ok thats how life is for the most part no? Its rare over all to find love in small groups for anyone. This does not change who you are.

    I just don't like the argument that you have a set group of people, and they must be a mix of everything to make everyone happen. Be it moves, commercials, everything. Thats not real to me, thats not how the world works. There other players out there who you can find that will fit you better. People try to cater to everyone  too much. I find leaving it to people to find there own happense is more rewarding, cause its more rare. Thats why I play MMO's, for the other players, not the NPC's. Sorry if I come off as a jerk, I just don't see why people are so upset. There is so much more to the game. And if this one thing is what your looking for, its still could be there among the player base, just not the NPC's.

     I agree. This whole argument is ironic considering one of the knocks against this game is that it is so scripted. Well, you have the ability to have a relationship with other players in game that isn't scripted and people are still up in arms because there isn't a scripted dialogue for same sex with the companions.

    I've seen the argument that Bioware should do it because it was done in their other games. What they are forgetting is that Dragon Age was rated mature while TOR is not. I suspect all parties involved want this to have a low rating so that it can be sold to a wide audience. This was a business decision and people need to stop taking decisions like this so personally.

    Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    Originally posted by Leoghan

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Originally posted by P2PGamer

    Originally posted by Wiezard

    Originally posted by Leoghan

    Originally posted by Wiezard

    Originally posted by P2PGamer

    ....

     You act as if allowing homosexual relationships is as easy as just flicking a switch when I really don't think this is the case.  It's highly likely that a lot of the romance dialog/cutscenes are gender specific.  This means that BW would have to make specific homosexual romance dialog for each and every class.  This is a lot of work.

    In addition, they would have to make sure that every class had at least one female and male companion available to them that is bisexual or gay.  And personally, I hate the solution of making EVERY companion bisexual or gay like is was in DA2.  It just makes the game feel cheesy and unrealistic.  It takes away from the character building BW tries to do because you know that making all companions bisexual is basically just a contrivance.

    I'll bet if they only made one class per side have the option of a gay relationship most people would be ok with that. There would be grumbling, but I doubt you'd see the anger that you are seeing now. 

     Probably, but my points are these...

    First, I don't see how not including gay relationships = intolerence or bigotry.  That's like saying BW is anti-handicapped because they don't have jedis in wheel chairs.  It's ridiculous.

    Second, as I see it, BW is being lambasted for basically having supported gay relationships in the past.  Be honest, if a BW game NEVER had a gay relationship, then no one would care that they aren't in SWTOR. 

    But instead, BW DID have gay relationships in the past, and for some reason, certain individuals think this makes them entitled to have gay relationships in EVERY BW game.  I'm sorry but this is not the case.  BW does not "owe" you gay relationships in every game.

    So instead of slamming them for not having gay relationships, you should be happy that they actually DID have gay relationships in TONS of games and really pioneered that kind of thing in mainstream video games in general.  It's only because of BW that we're even having a conversation about gay relationships in games.  Without them it wouldn't even be on anyone's radar.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • kaliniskalinis Dexter, MEPosts: 1,428Member

    look u can still roleplay a gay relationship if u want. Its just not a story choice. Lets at least get to that part.  Also they havent ruled out adding it after launch its just not there for launch.

    The people having the biggest fit are liberals or homosexuals. Im sorry its a game for petes sakes. I wouldnt have an issue with a gay relationship option by the way. I just dont see why its a big deal

    This is a huge game and a big undertaking with full voice over and stuff so changing the romance options also means they have to add dialogue choice to it as well. That requires more time then just putting it in for launch. 

    IM sure in the large scheme of things bioware didnt think it would be this big a deal it doesnt mean they dont want u to play there game. it just didnt make it to launch.

    While i can understand if u are gay wanting same sex option i dont really understand why its a deal breaker. ive read most of the posts here i still dont understand. 

    The companion romance thing doesnt show up unless u do the right options of story choice earlier im gonna assume anyways. 

    The truth is u could play yoru colass and never see a romance option show up do to choices u made to begin with but then again why didnt bioware make it so u could romance companions no matter what will be a huge flame thread .

  • NormikeNormike san francisco, CAPosts: 436Member

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Originally posted by hundejahre

     




    Originally posted by bigsmiff






    Originally posted by hundejahre






    And for all you whiny little white straight men out there crying "Get over yourself!" and "What do you expect?", would you be saying the same thing if they announced thee would be no romance options for blacks? The handicapped? Women?

    Yeah, you probably would.

     

     






     


     

     



     

    You cannot compare race, the handicapped nor women in this. Those three examples are natural...gay is not natural. Men and women were designed to be with the opposite sex. And if you call me homophobe, so be it. I will accept that...







     

    Humans aren't the only animals that have and practice homosexuality, so please explain how it isn't natural.

    Men and women weren't designed, we evolved and will one day be gone just like everything else. Did gay kill the dinosaurs?

    If my legs are crushed in an industrial press at work and must be amputated in a hospital is that natural or am I not really handicapped?

    I won't call you a homophobe although you seem far too eager to self-identify with that. I will suggest you may be ignorant and fearful, but both of those can be easily overcome. Once you know the actual truth about people and lose the fear, life around other people different than you becomes so much easier.

    Just to add to this, here is an article about scientists that are able to manipulate the sexual orientation of fruit flies by playing with their genes and their brains:

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316316,00.html

    Sure makes it seem like homosexuality has some kind of natural physical component.

    Personally, I believe that people can be born gay or straight and can also "learn" to be gay or straight through socialization.  Don't believe me?  Just look at the culture of ancient Greece.  Many men (especially soldiers) were encouraged to engage in gay relationships and they did so.  You can also look at girls in the modern era that experiment with homosexuality to gain attention.

    Basically, humans are complicated.  I don't think it's as simple as "you're born gay" or "you learn gay."  It can probably be both.

    I think "learning" to be straight or gay is ridiculous. There is not 100% straight or 100% gay, rarely anway. There is a scale. Some people are closer to the gay side and some are closer to the straight side, and some are closer the middle bisexual area.

     

    The reason there were more same sex relationships in the times of Greece and Rome is because gay men today are encouraged to hide in the closet, get married, have kids, and have affairs with men on the side. Meanwhile bisexual men are encouraged to push away those thoughts of attraction towards another dude and concentrate on the feelings they feel towards women, and convince themselves that they're "straight." lol

     

    The actual real percentages of gay and bisexual people hasn't changed. It's just what is openly shown  and accepted by society that changes. Changs in society, including games, that make it clear that discrimination and prejudice won't be tolerated go a long way to helping these sad people come out of the closet and stop bottling up all that self-hate and self-disgust.

This discussion has been closed.